25>17, 36>34, repairing a relationship mistake that was my fault?

[einhorn]

I think Hexcagram 5.4 changing to Hexagram 43 is giving you more detail about what the IChing said in the first place.

Could be. I keep seeing different explanations for 5.4, though. Seriously half of them say "you're in a seriously bad situation but all you can do is wait" and the other half say "you're in a seriously bad situation. Get out NOW."

Those are direct opposites. One is saying "take action. Do it." The other is saying "you cannot take action, you cannot go forward or backward, you must wait."

I understand the "bloody pit" as it pertains to my situation, but not the conflicting interpretations on whether to do something immediately or to wait.

Which makes sense to me, because you were told, first reading you did, what is wrong and how to fix it. And, as I said, until you've exhausted that first reading, I wouldn't confuse myself by bombarding the IChing with more questions. And you aren't comfortable with that, and you go on. But I believe you are making assumptions that the IChing says it's getting worse and worse when, in fact, it's just trying to convey in stronger language what it said from the beginning. Does that make sense?

Yes, I understand that what I asked in the beginning was very similar to the "what is the most important thing I need to know about my current situation."

The recurring theme I see here is SINCERITY. That would appear to be why you cast hexagram 8 at the start as well. You were asked to examine your motives for something within you that makes what you want to happen possible -- or impossible.

I understand.

I keep coming back to that hexagram because it seems to still be at the bottom of the pile-up. YOU are going to be the key to all of this, which means, what you know, your attitude, how you behave in the situation. If this were my reading I just wouldn't go past there. Because, so far, nothing has changed. All you've done is cast, cast, cast and speculate. The conditions that brought you to the IChing are exactly the same as when you began. Why would the reading then change?

It is often the case that other situations (outside of the ones in my head) change. The situations of other involved people may change without me realizing it.

Like with the whole "waiting for the right moment" thing. I interpreted that to mean "when the other people's conditions are optimal."

Ok think of like being in a battle, and someone tells you to attack at the right moment. That can mean two things: 1) when you and your troops are ready 2) when the enemy is most vulnerable. It could be that the troops are always ready, but they need to wait until the situation changes to the right moment (like when the enemy makes a mistake that leaves them exposed).

Not saying my current situation is like doing battle, just saying in general.

And the additional questions you ask, I believe the IChing is saying, add dimensions of difficulty certainly. But you still haven't addressed the first problem. Which is: can YOU do this. Are you sincere? Do you know how to demonstrate that? HOW will you demonstrate? WHEN?

Can I do it? Of course.
Am I sincere? Absolutely.
Do I know how to demonstrate that? Not sure. That's why I asked the I Ching.
How will I demonstrate? First I need to know what I should do.
WHEN? this is what seems to be the biggest key to the puzzle. Other than extrapolating based on what I know about my ex's personality, the circumstances, and relationship dynamics theory (all of which together which would yield a general guess at best), I do not know "when."

So, if you haven't even decided THAT much, I think the IChing is going to say, this gets tougher and tougher and turns into a pit of blood, because you aren't listening and learning.

Hexagram 8 refers you directly back to yourself and recommends that you become SUBLIME or assure that you act with sublimity. Do you know what that means? This is big. It means that you have the ability to be entirely honourable and to exalt the other person, to create an overall state of excellence. In the alchemic sense, it means that you become a magician of sorts, that you can vaporise and reappear in a solid state and then vaporise again. So what can this mean to a relationship? I think it says that you do SUBSTANTIAL things that can be seen, touched, are obvious. You make the import of the relationship truly felt, of paramount importance. There may be times when this fades into background a bit [vaporises] BUT IT IS ALWAYS THERE. It is still pervasive and permeates the entire atmosphere. Do you see all that there is in Hexagram 8? Why do we need more?

That's better info than my interpretation of Hexagram 8

This is an enormous idea. It covers flowers and marriage proposals, dinner and softlight. And beyond that it says that your relationship should be all day everyday, not postponed for two and a half years while you get your act together. If you are ready for this, be entirely ready. Stand up tall, and make yourself so OBVIOUSLY ready that this lady can't possibly doubt you. Sweep her off her feet and keep it that way for life. Leave no question in her mind, or yours.

Now, knowing her as you do, how do you achieve this? The Hexagram says to act, so what are you doing? It doesn't say cast and cast and cast until you are depressed. And it isn't going to tell you to send flowers or not. ANYWAY, if you are being sincere, this comes from you. What do YOU think you should do? You've got to feel something, sense it. As Hexagram 5 says, you don't just WAIT, you have to build certainty, you have to convince yourself before you can convince anybody else.

Which hexagram said act? 5? Some 5.4 interpretations say "wait" and others say "act."

When I listen to you, quite honestly, it sounds like somebody who is building a sales campaign that "can't fail." I don't think the IChing is calling for this. I think it's saying, if you are SINCERE you can't fail.

I hope so!

You don't need to analyse, strategise and manipulate. You need to be your most sincere, loving and apologetic self.

Now you see why I overanalyze everything

Now, this isn't the IChing speaking here, but I think you need some kind of ultimately sincere gesture, what is obviously for YOU a big risk, but entirely yourself, just being you. Something utterly believable and absolutely convincing because YOU shine through as somebody who wants to be her partner, to be a team with her, to be equals and friends for all time.

Now meditate a bit and don't blizzard me with words and ten more hexagrams. What is on that scale for you? Where can you start to show her the real you, the sublimity of your relationship and that it has quality and endurance for the long haul?

hehe, ok

Thanks!


And Lucia:

This is true and is echoed in your 11.2 answer. Amongst other things I think that 11.2 is about not seeing someone or the fear of not being seen or both usually.

And 60.2 says cool it and do a little thinking outside the box - you are stuck otherwise - confined by a parochial view of it all.

I interpreted 60.2 to say "wait for the right time and then do it!" Of course, now I'm back to "when is the right moment?"

As long as it takes....... try keeping a journal it is so useful and means you get real opportunities to revisit answers in a new head space.

I have a journal with all my castings in it.

5.4 is talking about your frame of mind right now - you are just going round and round in the pit and the ching's advice is very clear - "Get out of the pit" - stop.

Going back to what I was saying before, some say "get out of the pit" and others say "you are trapped in the pit and cannot move forward or backward (or get out)." Confusing!!!

43 says this has all been building up for a long time and it is an important moment but as the water deluges down from heaven you need to be in control of where/how it flows or you are just going to have a massive flash flood on your hands. Stop obsessing in other words............. Why do you have to "act" now? Why can't you just take time to cool out and allow other things to gradually come into your field of vision.

I don't have to act *now* but I'd like to find the right time.

I suspect it is your urge to "do" something that is part of the problem here.............

Probably

Then again you know how guys always want to "fix" things.

Not a lot right now except accept the obstruction. In 2.3 it is done and dusted in a way. What matters is that whatever it was that you have had with this woman is an entity in itself and maybe she will or maybe she won't see that.

And 2.5 says you can't control the situation so don't try. Instead, be more responsive rather than directive, be open and allow things to flow into you.

You can't do that if you are in the pit (5.4) by the way.

Sorry this is a quickie but I hope it helps........

Lucia

Thanks!

 

[einhorn]

I thought this question was appropriate since it was a recurring theme in nearly every other hexagram i got:

How will i know when it's the right time to act to try and get [name] back?

17.2 -> 58

Off to look those up!

 

[arabella]

Hexagram 17.2 would say to me that you need to acknowledge the changes you should make yourself, and then you can be successful. It's about letting go of a "little boy" to become the "great man." In the situation you've described I'd imagine this means growth on your part to a state where you can consider the needs of a woman in your life and grasp the import of partnership and honour a commitment to something bigger than just you and your accomplishments. And then the IChing indicates great enthusiasm and joy in Hexagram 58. So you are beginning from the inside, out. Which is more or less what I've been telling you. It has to come from you. Once you've attained that certainty, success follows. In other words, the right moment is going to be when you really have your act together.

By the way, when I said you seemed to be looking for the perfect marketing idea, that was tongue in cheek. That would be a disaster. Women see clear through manipulation most of the time. It is going to have to be totally heartfelt, not strategised, and I can't think of ten more ways to say that, so I'll stop saying it. It is the key.

 

[einhorn]

That was one of the interpretations for 17.2 I got.

Also "obtaining a following through adaptation," the changing into a more suitable partner.

And from 58, "When, on the other hand, the hearts of men are won by friendliness."

Anyway, FWIW, it's not like I was a work-machine while we were together. It was just the last few months. I got laid off in 08 (after we had been together for 6 or 7 months already), took some time off for myself, and then eventually started my own company, and that's why I'd been so busy in the most recent months. So it's not like I ignored her for 2.5 years. Just wanted to throw that out there

The irony is that I hate working. I was talking to a friend from college who was also a coworker at my first corporate job after college about my situation and he goes "wait, dude, I cannot imaging YOU working 'too much' at anything."

Financial independence (and early retirement) are goals of mine because I hate *having* to work, but at the same time, I'm actually a bit of a slacker. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a job that I enjoy. I'd love to teach private guitar lessons (I've played ever since I was a child, and actually taught part time while I was in middle school), but that doesn't pay enough to give me (and my future family) the lifestyle I want, so I have to do other jobs that aren't as much fun (but pay better) in the meantime. I just want to be comfortable so that if anyone in my family needs emergency medical surgery, or wants to go on vacation, or whatever, we don't go into debt and I don't have to tell my (future) kids "sorry, I know all your friends go on vacation but we can't afford it." It's a big fear of mine.

Anyway, though, I hate having to work, so like I said, it's ironic that the reason my relationship ended was because I was working "too much." It's not like I choose working over my gf because it was more fun or I didn't enjoy spending time with her.

Anyway, yeah...

I know what I have to do now. But it may boil down to the psychological aspect of "does my ex miss me or is she feeling relieved now instead?"

We shall see.

 

[arabella]

Maybe work wasn't the only reason it ended. Maybe that was a symtom and not the real problem. Since you are getting so much the same from the IChing here, I bet if you zoned in and figured it out you would have solved the question of a lifetime. You're really fortunate I think that the IChing is being so direct with you. My readings are usually absolutely conundrums. So you're quite lucky. You could be being directed toward a personality thing, or a lifestyle thing, rather than JUST spending time at work the last while. That's what YOU said was the problem, but maybe it's more subtle than that.

 

[einhorn]

i read another interpretation of 17.2 that said something to the effect of not forgetting about childhood wonders (as in don't allow yourself to focus entirely on grown-up things).

in fact, my physical book translates moving second line for 17 as:

a)tied-to the small son
letting-go the respectable husband

b) tied-to the small son
nowhere joining associating indeed

(there's no more info, the rest of that section just defines each of those words, which isn't too helpful; i would've preferred an interpretation or two. this is like giving interpretations of each word, which is a bit hard for me to pull something concrete out of)
so that's kinda the opposite. i dunno.

so maybe it implies SHE is letting go of ME (the respectible husband (household manager; administer with thrift and prudence; responsible for; sustain with your earnings; old enough to assume responsibility; married man.) [that's how my book defines "husband" in this line] in favor of the small son. she doesnt have any kids. son is defined as "son(hood), living up to ideal of ancestors as highest human development; act with concern and reverence; male child; offspring, posterity; seed, kernel, egg; sage, teacher; nadir, deepest point, midnight, mid-winter."

then again, this was in response to "how will i know when..." not "describe her feelings..."

hmmm.

a lot of it seems open to interpretation, but perhaps that's by design: it allows you to see what you need to see. hmmm.

 

[specialk]

Have you ever told her that the reason you've been caught up with work so much was to do with creating a future for both of you (ie, because you love her) and not just because you're a workaholic, or success-obsessed, or avoiding her, or so insecure that you need to be validated constantly by your work? (Don't sneer, some men ARE like that). Or had the communication deteriorated between you to such an extent that this was never actually voiced? You don't give your age, but in my experience younger men tend to be more work-obsessed than older ones, who are more chilled out, have less to prove, and can see what's really valuable in life. If you're young and trying to get a career off the ground, try to believe and trust that it WILL happen without you having to sell your soul (and your relationship) to do it. I've been with men who were career-obsessed, forcing me to break up with them as they were just not present in any meaningful way, and they have all come back once they realise what is really important in life (ie authentic intimacy and connection, and not stacks of money - although damn, it is good to have both!)

I disagree with Arabella on the proposal issue, but that is more a function of where I am in my own life (if my ex came back and proposed it would basically be all my dreams coming true and would authenticate everything he said to me while we were together) than a hard-headed analysis of yours, so don't pay too much attention to that. I see what she means in that if you proposed, your ex partner is only going to see more of the same (ie her being sidelined in favour of work) in the future, except this time with both of you wearing rings. She is probably also concerned that if you had kids, you couldn't be relied on to be around to get stuck in to bringing them up, with all that that entails, and dealing with kids on your own, effectively, day after day, is very very hard.

I suppose you could start by calling her often (maybe a couple of times a week), even if she doesn't reply. If she doesn't pick up or reply, you can still leave messages letting her know that you are fully aware of what's going on in her life, as in "Hope you had a good time at X's party", or "Hope the interview goes well", or "How did X go?", so that even if you haven't been around much lately, she will know that you HAVE been listening to her and are aware of her schedule, what's important to her, and what she's been doing lately.

Then if she agrees to meet up, NO work phone calls or texts while you're together, and no work talk either. Turn off your phone. Be FULLY present in whatever you two are doing. This may take months until she sees that you're serious about changing. That's if you're lucky enough that she lets you try again. For myself, when my ex returns I am going to need to see real evidence of his bona fides, and so will she.

Sorry there's no actual I Ching content in this, but I'm super-new at interpreting it, and even people who have been at it a while get confused, I gather!

 

[specialk]

And another thing. If you hate what you're doing for work, you will never be happy. As you say, the irony is that you lost your ex through being too focussed on work, and work consists of a job you hate. Why not try guitar teaching? It may not pay millions but you will enjoy every minute of it, and the advice usually is in these situations: "Do what you love and the money will follow". You will probably be inundated for requests for guitar lessons and won't be able to keep up with the demand, at which point you can raise your prices, or you can raise them a bit every year. I've never heard of a music teacher who couldn't take his/her family on vacation. I think your fears are somewhat irrational on that score (no pun intended! You could even be inspired with a new business idea around guitar teaching, or music in some form. And then when you and your ex are together, you will be in much better form because you are doing something you love.

 

[einhorn]

Have you ever told her that the reason you've been caught up with work so much was to do with creating a future for both of you (ie, because you love her) and not just because you're a workaholic, or success-obsessed, or avoiding her, or so insecure that you need to be validated constantly by your work?

Yeah, definitely. Her counter-argument was that she wanted someone who spent time with her now. I almost feel like she doesn't quite understand the importance of planning for the future (she's 25) even though I fully admit that I obsess about it a little too much.

I understood where she was coming from. Understand that it's not like we never spent time together. We went out and did stuff and we did spend time together at home, but it was less than what we both wanted.

(Don't sneer, some men ARE like that). Or had the communication deteriorated between you to such an extent that this was never actually voiced? You don't give your age,

I'm 29.

but in my experience younger men tend to be more work-obsessed than older ones, who are more chilled out, have less to prove, and can see what's really valuable in life.

I will be more chilled out when I'm older because I'll have more money and won't need to work so hard

I sound like a workaholic in this thread. Understand that I am definitely not.

I disagree with Arabella on the proposal issue, but that is more a function of where I am in my own life (if my ex came back and proposed it would basically be all my dreams coming true and would authenticate everything he said to me while we were together) than a hard-headed analysis of yours, so don't pay too much attention to that.

Proposals have to come at a time when both people have a high interest level in the relationship. Right now she does not so it would be counter-productive.

That's the reason you would be happy with one right now... because right now your interest level in getting back with your ex is very high.

I see what she means in that if you proposed, your ex partner is only going to see more of the same (ie her being sidelined in favour of work) in the future, except this time with both of you wearing rings. She is probably also concerned that if you had kids, you couldn't be relied on to be around to get stuck in to bringing them up, with all that that entails, and dealing with kids on your own, effectively, day after day, is very very hard.

Yeah, I think that was an issue for her.

I suppose you could start by calling her often (maybe a couple of times a week), even if she doesn't reply. If she doesn't pick up or reply, you can still leave messages letting her know that you are fully aware of what's going on in her life, as in "Hope you had a good time at X's party", or "Hope the interview goes well", or "How did X go?", so that even if you haven't been around much lately, she will know that you HAVE been listening to her and are aware of her schedule, what's important to her, and what she's been doing lately.

While I understand your motives and thinking, calling her often would be pretty creepy and stalkerish in this case. And also, that wouldn't give her time to realize that she misses me. She would start to associate me with *annoyance* rather than *happy-memories-and-missing-me*.

Then if she agrees to meet up, NO work phone calls or texts while you're together, and no work talk either.

I never use my cell phone for work. I hate that. I don't even give my number to clients. It's email only.

Sorry there's no actual I Ching content in this, but I'm super-new at interpreting it, and even people who have been at it a while get confused, I gather!

np

And another thing. If you hate what you're doing for work, you will never be happy. As you say, the irony is that you lost your ex through being too focussed on work, and work consists of a job you hate.

I don't necessarily hate my job now. It's much better than some other "real" jobs I've had where I was an employee.

The thing I have is having to work in general. It really doesn't matter what the job is... it's the fact that I have to do something in order to make enough money to live.

My main financial goal is to generate enough wealth that I can live passively on interest/investments/dividends without touching the principal and continue to have a comfortable life. Then I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, and not have to work if I don't want to.

Why not try guitar teaching? It may not pay millions but you will enjoy every minute of it, and the advice usually is in these situations: "Do what you love and the money will follow". You will probably be inundated for requests for guitar lessons and won't be able to keep up with the demand, at which point you can raise your prices, or you can raise them a bit every year. I've never heard of a music teacher who couldn't take his/her family on vacation. I think your fears are somewhat irrational on that score (no pun intended! You could even be inspired with a new business idea around guitar teaching, or music in some form. And then when you and your ex are together, you will be in much better form because you are doing something you love.

Maybe, and I see where you're coming from, but remember that like 90% of businesses fail within the first year or something like that, and I'm doing decently now (knock on wood) so I don't want to stop doing what I am doing.

 

[specialk]

I guess.