Clarity,
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No, I had nothing in mind like "starting to continue", that means you stopped and now you go on. To me proceeding means to proceed. Of course there can be a situation that you stopped and now you pick up the thread again where you left. But most of the time it is simply - well - proceeding. Going on in the same way that you were going.Ewald: LiSe's "proceeding" is a nice find, in that it's a continuation that at the same time is an initiation. When proceeding, you start to continue.
BTW, I believe the above translation is very dangerous as it turns upside down the contextual meaning given by more than two thousand years of scholarly commentary. One thing is to play with characters and words and try to do literal translations and another is to discard what has been accumulated over centuries.This is how I translate 31.3:
Affecting the groin.
Holding on to what is followed.
Leaving is inadequate.
Mm, I guess previous is rather the 'something' itself which proceeded, so it left 'now' and became 'previous'.
LiSe
BTW, I believe the above translation is very dangerous as it turns upside down the contextual meaning given by more than two thousand years of scholarly commentary. One thing is to play with characters and words and try to do literal translations and another is to discard what has been accumulated over centuries.
...I think most'll agree that 31.3 is about attraction, possibly of a sexual nature...
...In case of attraction, it can sometimes be a good idea to leave, but generally this is not so. On the contrary! It would be a bad idea!...
...Wilhelm ... was probably taking sexuality to be morally bad...
This is how I translate 31.3:
Affecting the groin.
Holding on to what is followed.
Leaving is inadequate.
I think there's a clear distinction between "keeping the current path" (continuing) and "going forward" (initiating something).Quoting myself, I've been thinking further Ewald's translation and perhaps I can see a little clearly what he means. On the one hand, the consensus sits along the lines of 往吝 meaning something like "going forward will cause regret" (as in keeping the current path or train-of-thought). On the other hand, Ewald sees it as "leaving" what is regretful or inadequate and I understand it based on a possible meaning of 往, which is perhaps fine but I stick to what I say above about it departing from consensus. What I'm thinking is that, if we put both translations together, side by side, and if we sort of average it, what we obtain is something akin to "action is inadequate and/or regretful," whereby action is the operating word here.
Does it make sense?
To say that Wilhelm was a catholic is like say Lao Tze was confucionist; or Kung Tze was a budhist.After all, as a Catholic missionary in the 1930's,
If you read Wilhelm works like the Secret of the Golden Flower, you could guess this may be more your own assumptions than reality.he was probably taking sexuality to be morally bad.
He translated this line according to his convictions.
Could you back that up with a quote, please?If you read Wilhelm works like the Secret of the Golden Flower, you could guess this may be more your own assumptions than reality.
Sure, that's possible. But his talking about God in a couple of places shows that his own convictions definitely got into the mix.This could give the impression that this interpretation of humiliation in continuing the impulse wasn't present in the studies of the Yijing until this "catholic" came to write about it. Could it be that Wilhelm translated this line, not according with his convictions but according with the mayor chinese exegesis at his time (as Wilhelm itself said he made his translation)?
Luis:Avoiding Confucian thought to get closer to the original Zhouyi doesn't mean to automatically take a diametrical interpretation and/or translation of the text...
"...influence is felt in the thighs... this man has too strong an urge... which will lead him to humiliation... capricious move to act at this time is inauspicious and will cause him regret."
Thanks, Ewald:Charly - I think it's about attraction, though, not necessarily sexually.
I haven't been able to find this meaning in any of the dictionaries I use. I compiled together, all, completely / unite, join / feel, be sensitive to, respond to, influence for 咸.What do you think about the «Shock» and «Shake» options instead of attraction, movements, cutting off, etc.?
I think there's a clear distinction between "keeping the current path" (continuing) and "going forward" (initiating something).
If "action" would be the operating word, 行 would have been used.
Luis - I've found Cleary's Taoist and Buddhist I Chings both quite reminiscent of Wilhelm's interpretation. I don't know Jou, Tsung Hwa's translation, but someone in the 20th century translating the I Ching was probably influenced by Wilhelm's work.
My first version was, like so many other translations, close to Wilhelm's, despite me avoiding referring to his work (I did refer to other translations). But upon continued studying, so much didn't seem to quite make sense. When inner consistency isn't there, or things don't fit with psychological or spiritual knowledge, while an alternative translation does, I prefer to go with consistency.
Why do you assume that my first version was unbiased? Like I said, I referred to other translations. I didn't assume that I was able to create a good translation from the start just by myself, so I looked a lot at the example of various other translations. Just like every other translator, I assume. I assumed at first that those texts would be different in lots of respects, given the ambiguity of the material, and I also assumed that they wouldn't be that much influenced by the two big examples. But nevertheless, my initial text, that was much influenced by other examples, but not much by Wilhelm, ended up being a lot like Wilhelm.There you have it. Your first translation, despite avoiding Wilhelm's work, came close to his. However, rather than taking it as unbiased, when finding similarities with his work, you took it as being "influenced" by it. Could it be possible that you first hunch was the correct one?
Well, I leave it to you to assume there is no inner consistency. I think it's not farfetched to reckon with inner consistencies, likeNow, perhaps you are also assuming there is an "inner consistency" in the text of the Yi, as in a linear textual narrative. This is a typical Western line of thought: to seek such consistencies. Eastern thought works on another level and is associative rather than linear. IMO, I don't believe there is a purposeful narrative in the Yi but a compilation of significant historical divinations; a collage of sorts, of much older texts, around a common theme at the hexagram level. That's why, in the West, we must "interpret" the original text together with literal translations and thus derive meaning.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
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