58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

[rodaki]

for line 3: what about making fun at the cost of someone's integrity". It also is about being entertained, being passive in exchange, so there is no reflection on the fun: sarcasm, irony, laughing at someone's misery and bad luck.

aha! . . . idea!(I seriously need a 'lighted bulb' emoticon )

I was thinking about 43.3, the fan yao of this line which I've lived very vividly twice and was trying to figure out how those two fit . .
both times of my 43.3 I ended up soaking wet from rain, the first because I was with a friend, both on bikes and I missed my turn so I had to make a big circle to get home while at the same time the light rain turned into hail, second because I just had to get filters for my tobacco NOW . . . both times there was a sense of being bad-mouthed, basically because I was cursing myself inside (now why am I on the bike while it's hailing??? you know that voice, I think Maria had called it once 'my inner bitch' . . we all have one of those huh . .). Both times there was a sense of true joy, either because I ran into a friend I wouldn't communicate with out of stubbornness or because . . . weeell, actually I enjoyed the rain

but if Bert is right with this, then I can see how the two lines connect, even though so far I thought 58.3 was just about forcing a matter to take the shape that would please me . . but then again, if dui is also about sadness, or melancholy, then 58.3 could be about putting a damper on things, or being too judgemental when things fail to be what we assume is 'right' or 'proper' or whatever . .

hmmm, am I forcing this?:bag:

 

[maremaria]

Nice you mention 43 Rodaki. MAkes me think, does the subject lose his/her "voice" by that kind of attitude ?

 

[Sparhawk]

I don't understand at all line 58.3. Is the subject of that line Just waits from the other to make them happy or s/he entertains, being nice with others just to belong to that group?
I have read many times Wilhelm’s text but doesn’t make sense. Can anyone give me an example? What its his/hers profile ?

Maria

Perhaps this may help:

2114 兑(F兌) [duì] ☱ Joyous, Lake; 兑换 duìhuàn convert, exchange
兑[兌] ³duì v. ①exchange; convert ②add (water/etc.)

"Joy, cheerful talk, to barter... 丷 something (words) coming out of a 儿 human 口 mouth" --Karlgren.

"Good words that dispel grief and rejoice the hearer; hence the two meanings, to speak, to rejoice. It is 兄 added with a 八, that means, dissipation; 从儿口八, 会意。八像, 气之散(sàn)者。说也。喜也。...It is used as a modern 假借 jiǎjiè to mean, exchange, delivery in commercial transactions..." --Wieger.

兑 duì is the name of the trigram ☱ and the hexagram , from the 易经 Yì Jīng Book of Changes. 兄 xiōng means "older brother": a 儿 person with a big 口 mouth.
In modern Chinese, 兑 occurs mostly as a phonetic component in characters with a wide range of sounds.

​

The other two characters are pretty simple in this context: 來 is "to come, coming to" and 凶 is misfortune. IMO, one must bear in mind what the text says within the context of the hexagram as a whole and the position of the line in particular. The third line, with few exceptions, is a transition line; a place where things are out of place and fluid. Further, it is a yin line in a yang position, that is weakness, when the position calls for strength. Now, bear in mind the other possible meanings of the character 兑 above, specially to exchange words (to speak, exchange and convert). You could think of it as "cheerfully chatting about something, perhaps not at the proper time, and being put down or chastised, perhaps severely, for it" Well, at least is how I see it, today, without the context of an actual question.

Come to think of it, 58.3 is the story of my life...

 

[meng]

Well said, Luis. Thanks.

I think gambling is a good example of line 3, or at least counting your winnings before they're won.

 

[jilt]

Well said, Luis. Thanks.

I think gambling is a good example of line 3, or at least counting your winnings before they're won.

that might well be, the other candidate for gambling is 39-4. Anyway, Wilhelm is speaking of "counting on things you cannot rely on.

During my student-years I had many jobs and I used to ask the yi all kinds of questions about them. One I remember well, it was in a holiday-park. I had to enjoi people by putting them in small trains, boats and towers that moved up and down. At a certain moment I only saw bored people that had to be enjoied because they did not know how to enjoi themself. Very profitable indeed.

 

[rodaki]

Nice you mention 43 Rodaki. MAkes me think, does the subject lose his/her "voice" by that kind of attitude ?

I think the chastising voice is another side of our own voice . . but how much ground do you give up to it?
. . thinking abt what Luis said, this is a yin line in a yang place in a state of transition, with words exchanged, bartering going on . .

 

[maremaria]

Thank you Luis, that was very helpful. Your explanations along with Meng’s examples created more questions , but it opened it up, which is good .
I understand much better, I think, the “[FONT=&quot]Coming joyousness. Misfortune.[/FONT]”
There is a “now” and a “future” Seems that what or how you invest, the future results maybe will not be the expected ones.

 

[maremaria]

that might well be, the other candidate for gambling is 39-4. Anyway, Wilhelm is speaking of "counting on things you cannot rely on.

During my student-years I had many jobs and I used to ask the yi all kinds of questions about them. One I remember well, it was in a holiday-park. I had to enjoi people by putting them in small trains, boats and towers that moved up and down. At a certain moment I only saw bored people that had to be enjoied because they did not know how to enjoi themself. Very profitable indeed.

LOL !!! Indeed,one of the most profitable industry.

 

[fkegan]

Hex 58 as sunny swimming pool crowd...

I don't understand at all line 58.3. Is the subject of that line Just waits from the other to make them happy or s/he entertains, being nice with others just to belong to that group?
I have read many times Wilhelm’s text but doesn’t make sense. Can anyone give me an example? What its his/hers profile ?

Hi Maria and Charly,

Superior Man is a Confucian ideal or symbol of a proper role model. In terms of structure. Hex 58 Line place 3, Open Yin filling in and becoming focus. Third place of personal passion becoming focus changes hex 58 into hex 43. Or sexual arousal at the swimming pool leads to strong thrust to move on the the Next in private.

Or in Gia-fu and my Taoist Translation:

INVITING JOY. CALAMITY. Indulgence loses self-nature.

Invitations to joyous personal passion tends to disrupt the discussions upon the chaises lounges around the pool as folks pair off and go indoors.

Or in terms of my correspondence with the Sabian Symbols for the Zodiac (3 Gemini)

An etching of rare beauty displays a charming vista of court life at the garden of the Tuileries under Louis XIV

Superior Man is also translated Gentleman or Aristocrat in the Royal court such as Louis XIV famous for their sexual intrigues as normal court politics.

These are all examples of various leading men (or Junzi) in their social circle and how they would bring gossip upon themselves by making a focus of their personal passion in the hex58 swimming pool or Royal Court.

Frank

 

[my_key]

Thank you Luis, that was very helpful. Your explanations along with Meng’s examples created more questions , but it opened it up, which is good .
I understand much better, I think, the “[FONT=&quot]Coming joyousness. Misfortune.[/FONT]”
There is a “now” and a “future” Seems that what or how you invest, the future results maybe will not be the expected ones.

Hi Maria

Talking of "now" in the context of 58.3. Perhaps it's something like if we come out of the joy of now, maybe by worrying about the past or worrying about the future....or maybe just worrying about why we are so joyful when we don't really deserve to be, then that is where we fall into misfortune.

Mike

 

[rodaki]

clearer thoughts . . .

58.3: shaping expression according to what you think will please others

or, 'picture-perfect happiness'

 

[maremaria]

Hi Maria

Talking of "now" in the context of 58.3. Perhaps it's something like if we come out of the joy of now, maybe by worrying about the past or worrying about the future....or maybe just worrying about why we are so joyful when we don't really deserve to be, then that is where we fall into misfortune.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Interesting what you say about now and future. I need to think more about it.
To be honest I had exactly the opposite in my mind but maybe I’m wrong. You see, reading the previous posts, a verse from a poem came in my mind .Its from Seferis “Helen” ( the one responsible for the Trojan war. The verse says” for an empty shirt , for one Helen” That war was for Helen, but the Beautiful Helen turns to be an empty shirt, a cloud. All this effort for nothing. So, I though Now =helen and future=empty shirt.

Obviously still confused
Maria

 

[maremaria]

clearer thoughts . . .

58.3: shaping expression according to what you think will please others

or, 'picture-perfect happiness'

I see that too, as i mentioned earlier, but you phrashed it more succesfully .
I think the need is to befriended, to enjoy the "friends coming together...." and that need lead one to adapt one's behavior in such a way to be accepted. But in that way, ultimately s/he lost onesself.

Maybe the difference between line 2 and 3 is that in 2 one realize that and stop it, but on the other hand in 3 there is no awareness.

Line 58.3 version #539 ... more to come

 

[rodaki]

I see that too, as i mentioned earlier, but you phrashed it more succesfully .
I think the need is to befriended, to enjoy the "friends coming together...." and that need lead one to adapt one's behavior in such a way to be accepted. But in that way, ultimately s/he lost onesself.

Maybe the difference between line 2 and 3 is that in 2 one realize that and stop it, but on the other hand in 3 there is no awareness.

Line 58.3 version #539 ... more to come

yup! still working at it!
maybe 'need' is the key word here . . realizing the need without being needy? (mumble mumble, mumble . . .)

 

[charly]

... Logic isn’t not one of my strongest assets, lol, so given that I believe that Junzi exists. ( I prefer the term noble or better junzi than superior) Denying his existence is like denying mine or yours or everybody else’s. This is why YiJing is an interesting book after all. Because it talks about the days and nights of someone I know or someone i need to know better.

Hi, Maria:

I also believe that JUNZI exists but is none «SUPERIOR MAN». What I believe that doesn't exist is any SUPERIOR MAN.

JUN means RULER or NOBLE and ZI means mainly MALE SON, but as also it means SEED, FRUIT, maybe it can be taken as a sort of diminutive particle like NOBLE-CHILD, NOBLE-KID or even NOBLE-CUB, without genre.

The word must have evolved from a meaning of NOBLE BLOOD, to a meaning of belonging to a BROTHERHOOD or GUILD and to the confucian meaning of person of NOBLE CHARACTER.

The last, joined with some confucian stereotypes, like male superiority, hyerarchical ideology, self improvement mandate, etc. has a pretty good equivalent in SUPERIOR MAN.

This is good for me when translatig the GREAT IMAGE (DA XIANG), althoug I prefer NOBLE ONE, but in the core text, where it occurs not much more than twenty times, I believe that SUPERIOR MAN doesn't fit at all.

And of course that the YI speaks of someone whom you know or you need to know:

THE YI SPEAKS OF YOURSELF.​

Much more interesting than any SUPERIOR MAN, I belive.

Much better TRUE PEOPLE tan any UNREACHABLE IDEALIZATION.

Yours,

Charly



___________________________

君jun1: monarch / lord / gentleman / ruler /
子zi3: 1st earthly branch / child / midnight / son / seed / egg / small thing /

 

[charly]

... Talking of "now" in the context of 58.3. Perhaps it's something like if we come out of the joy of now, maybe by worrying about the past or worrying about the future....or maybe just worrying about why we are so joyful when we don't really deserve to be, then that is where we fall into misfortune.

Hi, Mike:

I like it too much.

Are you speaking about MATTHEW? I believe that there are many connections between BIBLE and CHANGES (1). Maybe HILLEL? (2)

來 lai2: to come /
兌 dui4: joy / ... etc. /
凶 xiong1: fierce / terrible / ominous / unfortunate /

COMING JOY: OMINOUS
If not still come, joy is unfortunate.
The time for joy is just now.
To came to soon is also unfortunate.
​

Why did the commentaries say «The position is not appropriate» ? Maybe a bedchamber advice?

It is said in the Bradford:

«If the joy we await takes much time to respond, it will find us too weak... ».

Quite true!

And SUMO responds:

«I don't know what I want, but I want it NOW.»

Yours,

Charly

_________________________________
(1)

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.

Matthew: 6,34 KJV

(2)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not NOW, when?

Rabbi Hillel, Jewish scholar & theologian (30 BC - 9 AD)

 

[charly]

...
I think the need is to befriended, to enjoy the "friends coming together...." and that need lead one to adapt one's behavior in such a way to be accepted. But in that way, ultimately s/he lost onesself.
...

María:

The Changes says «JOY is TO PLEASE», maybe you are right, but sometimes to lose oneself is not so bad.

I continue thinking that the problem is when JOY cames to an end.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... The third line... a place where things are out of place and fluid. Further, it is a yin line in a yang position, that is weakness, when the position calls for strength. Now, bear in mind the other possible meanings...

Come to think of it, 58.3 is the story of my life...

Luis:

Too much for me: weak, wet and out of place!

And there are even more meanings!

I have remembered something that wrote the french sinologist Jacques Gernet about the relation of DUI with RAMS, bearing meanings of:

• prehistoric custom of GIFTS INTERCHANGE
• comunal CELEBRATIONS
• religious SACRIFICES
• CATTLE BREEDING and WAR as means of life

Something about NOBLE archetypes founded on shephers tradition as opposed to PESANT / VILLAIN archetypes founded on agricultural tradition.

This reading suggested me that JOY advice was maybe:

BE HAPPY: JOIN THE ZHOUS
be our allies

AND ENJOY THE YIN
and f_ck the Shangs
​

Something related with the Shangs defeating and the building of the Zhou dynasty.

I have some notes, but I'm sure the document is in the web. I go to look for it.


Un abrazo,

Charly

 

[maremaria]

yup! still working at it!
maybe 'need' is the key word here . . realizing the need without being needy? (mumble mumble, mumble . . .)

Yes, i think how to handle that need is a theme of 58.

the following was writen long time ago. There are many hexagrams Interlaced there and imo, 58 is one of them.

Lately I hear that song in my mind.
“All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love”
Sometimes love is not enough but we all, need love. To give and to take. We need to feel belonging and acceptance from our family, friends, teachers and our significant other. Sometimes this exchange flow easily , some others not.
I heard a psychologist said that in the past it was believed that parents should not spoil their children and put restrictions to the things the children ask. The child must learn that s/he is not the center of the world and many parents act like that. Its not completely wrong but some times what it happened is to have a hungry child. There are psychologists now, that they say “spoil your chilren !!! “ Feed them, don’t leave them hungry. Nourish them.
Nourishment. That’s what we take from our relationships. Emotional nourishment. Emotional fulfilment.. But sometimes we choose the wrong sources of nourishment. That’s has to do with how nourished or starving is our soul. And that makes a big difference. If we are full , we increase the others and we increase our self too. It’s a win-win situation. But if we are ravenous , we consume the other and let our self to be consumed .
Hunger is a very bad counselor when we relate to others. Its like when you are on a diet . Don’t skip any meal, it’s the advise. Eat well, because if you don’t there will be a moment that you will consume everything you find in front of you in a wolfish way.
Cook for you self and if you don’t know, learn how to cook. Ask your friends . That’s why friends are for. That’s what relationships are for. To teach you how to cook or for exchanging recipes. Not to cook for you. Rely to your self for your nourishment. That is the great fun of the “lunches with friends”.
Cook for your friends and let them cook for you.
And cook for the most important person in your life; cook for you.

 

[maremaria]

Charly, yes

I didn't understood clearly your point in your earlier post

 

[rodaki]

I love what you wrote Maria . . it fits 58 even more if you think that its nuclear is 37
and I agree on the self-sufficiency part, all those things of 58.1, but I also try to keep in mind that 58 is about exchange, self-sufficiency can end up in 47 sometimes as much as blind following does not guarantee happiness . .

the more I think of it, the more I understand 58.3 as keeping both voices in check accordingly and giving room to joyful moments, even if coming out with them feels somehow too loud -as in 43 . .

 

[Trojina]

I had a couple of clear 58.3 experiences recently. Both times i was projecting into the future, the first time in anticipation of involvement and the second time with dread of involvement.

I think 58.3 can cover any kind of future projection thats actually hampering you, and clouding your vision rather than being useful forward looking. This can be either happy anticipation as 'looking forward' to something or dread and worry about what might happen. In either case its good to drop the projection straight away. I've found this line really useful clear advice on several occasions now.

 

[Trojina]

I don't know when we are moving to line 4 but unlike line 3 i've found this line to be kinda unhelpful as it mostly it seems simply to be pointing out the obvious straight back at you.

like I'll get it when weighing up options...and I'm asking about which option and it tells me I'm weighing up things...well i already know that, thats why I'm asking

perhaps others may have different experience of it ?..

hmm later reflection I noticed it also comes up when negotiations seems endless or incomplete too, where things, arrangements and so on just don't resolve they kind of just hang there. So I'm not talking about the words or ideas re 58.4 I'm talking about actual experience as it manifests in your life, your questions about your life. For me how 58.4 plays out has been much less rosy than most commentaries on it. How it plays out, how it feels to live it has much more meaning to me than what someone decided one time that it meant, thats why I'm interested if anyone has a particular experience of it

 

[charly]

Charly, yes

I didn't understood clearly your point in your earlier post

María:

If you are speaking of the JunZi = Superior Man, I believe that in the Da Xiang = Great Image, we can use Superior Man or Noble One, or something similar without great bias, because the text was composed by a confucian writer and then, we can use confucian concepts.

In the Da Xiang, the JunZi is the main protagonist in a great part of the hexagrams, following in each the teachigs of the component trigrams. But in my opinion is an excessively idealized protagonist. Too good for being true.

In the core text or ZhouYI, surely earlier than the own Confucius, the JunZi appears maybe twenty times. This JunZi is, I believe, not well translated with confucian concepts.

By another hand, the YI always speaks to us and much times even about us.

Then, if we have an excessively idealized concept of ourselves, we can use Superior Man, although not true. If we have a more realistic concept of ourselves we need another term or maybe an ironic use. I'm still looking for it.

«Nobody's perfect». If the JunZi is perfect, maybe we can translate it as NOBODY, wich in turn reminds me The Oddissey. «Who hurts you? Nobody did».

Do you trust in the greek connection?


Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Dearest Friends,
As 58 seems to encourage chatting I'll start with a few details of my recent adventures...
I am now in Santa Cruz, California where my husband and I are visiting my son and daughter in law and the new baby, Jax. We will be here for a month as the daughter in law is going back to work and we have been enlisted to help with the transition. Fortunately her job is in sales so she can set her own hours and is able to come home for nursing.
My son is a website designer so he's got all the latest computer equipment. OMG. typing on this keyboard is like tapping butter and the things he knows how to do! I think the future of education is going to be about training kids to use this high tech stuff. Truly, the divide between the haves and the have nots is not going to be about money, it's going to be about who has the ability to use the internet.

Anyway, I note we haven't been posting Wilhelm's comments about the structure of the hexagrams. I'll post what he has to say about line three now:
58.3
A weak line in a strong place, at the high point of joyousness - here control is lacking. When a man is open to distractions from without, they stream toward him and force their way in. Misfortune is certain. because he allows himself to be over whelmed by the pleasures he has attracted.

I see this as describing how one can start out being happy and self sufficient in line 58.1 and then this very state of self contentment attracts pleasant people from the outer world in 58.2. Sort of a "You seem to be a nice person, may I buy you a drink?"/ "Sure why not?" experience and then it's a slippery slope to 58.3 and full on addiction.

I'm probably seeing this in 58.3 because my daughter in law is a wine distributer and has invited us to help ourselves to anything in the cellar. UH-oh... :=)

 

[rosada]

58.4
Nine in the fourth place means:
Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace.
After ridding himself of mistakes a man has joy.

Often a man finds himself weighing the choice between various kinds of pleasure, and so long as he has not decided which kind he will choose, the higher or the lower, he has no inner peace. Only when he clearly recognizes that passion brings suffering, can he make up his mind to turn away from the lower pleasures and to strive for the higher. Once this decision is sealed, he finds joy and peace, and inner conflict is overcome.
Wilhelm

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,

Gia-fu and I translated hex 58 line 4 as:

INDECISIVE JOY NOT PEACEFUL. WHEN RID OF SICKNESS, HAVE SATISFACTION. Awareness brings healing.

In terms of the Yang line structure of the hexagram:
The fourth line place of the heart’s feelings, Yang focus expresses and exhausts itself leaving open Yin places for the entire heart line pair ( 3rd and 4th line places). The result is moving toward the hexagram 60 subtle fit of the flowing water into the local topography forming a quiet, deep lake.

Overall, the 8th hexagram of the 6th decad which is the place of the eventual result through time of the thunder strike to the heart of hex51 which finds its expression in the meeting of folks around the swimming pool or the collection of flowing water into a pair of connecting lakes. My the change of the fourth line place, this final result through time comes to resolution of the issues in the heart and finds peace in the ultimate 10th hexagram of this decad in the exact fit of the flowing water into the topography to form the deep water of the Lake.

Frank

 

[charly]

...
As 58 seems to encourage chatting I'll start with a few details of my recent
I see this as describing how one can start out being happy and self sufficient in line 58.1 and then this very state of self contentment attracts pleasant people from the outer world in 58.2. Sort of a "You seem to be a nice person, may I buy you a drink?"/ "Sure why not?" experience and then it's a slippery slope to 58.3 and full on addiction.
...

Hi, Rosada:

Good to have news from you and your relatives.

I'm preparing something about my experience with 54.4, meanwhile here goes the chinese text, etc [W/B in uppercase]:



商 shang1: commerce / trade / trader // quotient / the Shang Dynasty / [THAT IS] WEIGHED (1)
兌 dui4: to cash / JOYOUSNESS
未 wei4: not yet / still not / not / [IS] NOT
寧 ning2: peace / peaceful / [AT] PEACE

介 jie4: introduce / between // border / fix / protect (Waley) / [AFTER] RIDDING [HIMSELF]
疾 ji2: sickness / disease / hate / envy / [OF] MISTAKE (2)
有 you3 : to have / there is / there are / [A MAN] HAS
喜 xi3: to like/ to love / to enjoy / to be happy / joy / JOY

I wonder what is a WEIGHED JOYOUSNESS.

I believe that it could be read as:

SHANG'S JOY
The times when the Shangs enjoy

[IS] NOT YET PACIFIED
have not still passed

HEAL [THE] SICKNESS
remedy that true sickness

[AND[ THERE WILL BE HAPPINESS
and people will enjoy

​

Best wishes,


Charly

_______________________
(1) 商 shang1 components: ???, but is the name of the Shang Dynasty, here the bronze character from Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/商-bronze.svg

(2) 疾 ji2 components: bed for the sick and arrow. Maybe an arrow below the bed was some magic against sickness or envy?

(3) 喜 xi3 components: bunch of feathers over a sounding drumm

 

[rosada]

Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace.

Could joyousness that is weighed refer to situations where you have to weigh your words, that is consider carefully how you will express your ideas because you don't want to offend?

After riding himself of mistakes a man has joy.

So true joy would be discussions where one could openly and freely speak one's mind - perhaps only possible after you've manage to rid yourself of your childish bad habits, so you can relax knowing you wont spontaneously say something you'll regret?

rosada

 

[meng]

That's an interesting take on it, Rosada. If your joy is in the effect of your words, then yes, I can see how self discipline would be helpful to that end, and ultimately to relaxing with yourself and others.