58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

[jilt]

maybe it sounds a bit stupid, but I remember getting this advise when I had the choice to go partying or do some serious reading. Only after getting much older and many "considerations" (talking about euphemisms...) I preferred the serious reading and the exchange and questions coming along with it, like here on clarity

by the way, Lise says about the same as you on this line, Rosada: http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_49-64/hex_e_58.htm

 

[rosada]

58.5
0 Nine in the fifth place means:
Sincerity toward disintegrating influences is dangerous.

Dangerous elements approach even the best of men. If a man permits himself to have anything to do with them, their disintegrating influence acts slowly but surely, and inevitably brings danger in its train. But if he recognizes the situation and can comprehend the danger, he knows how to protect himself and remains unharmed.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

We were discussing earlier what is meant by "The superior man." I wonder if it is helpful to consider the superior man as simply someone who has been through the experience before and learned from it? When I look at the lines for 58 the lower lake seems to describe someone who is rather naive, whereas the upper lake shows how a more experienced person might handle the same situation:
58.1/58.3
The inexperienced might assume they are just naturally happy, where as the wiser man knows he is happy because he has learned self control.
58.2 / 58.5
We say "no one under 18 admitted" because as a society we want to protect the innocent and in 58.2 "dubious companions" do not even offer the young soul base pleasures. But is 58.5 the superior man himself recognizes the power of temptation and needs no outside laws to proect him, he himself knows to avoid it.
58.3 / 58.6
Curious then how while 58.3 is bad, 58.6 is really really bad. Maybe because the more experienced man should have been smart enough to know better? Maybe this is the "only-God-can-save-you-now" line which is why it leads to talk of God and temples in 59? Know I'm skipping ahead here and I'll probably think something entirely different by the time we actually are at 58.6...

M2C
rosada

 

[fkegan]

This is an interesting line. In Book III Wilhelm notes that its meaning arises from this being a Yang line in the odd-numbered 5th place, ruler of the hexagram which must guard against the Yin 6th line which is inviting it to improper fun.

Gia-fu and I rendered the Taoist translation of this line as:

FAITH IN EROSION HAS DANGER. Faith overcomes all.

And the Sabian Symbol for the Zodiac degrees I correspond to this line is:

5 Gemini: A publication devoted to some vital movement for human welfare flaunts an attention-compelling cover

This is a line about being strong and centered enough to be open to other views which is dangerous for Imperial bureaucrats but also an opportunity to express principles and do things that may improve society.

Frank

 

[meng]

Sincerity toward disintegrating influences is dangerous.

I love W/B's wording on this one, finding it stunningly apropos for when a darkened mindset attempts to degrade an otherwise happy moment.

 

[rosada]

Once again finding that what we focus on here at On Line Clarity quickly is mirrored in my personal sphere..
My son brought in a box of something from the bakery benignly titles, "Lemon Bites". I asked if they were good and he responded, "Sure, but I never eat'em." A strange response but I didn't pay attention. I was too interested in the little miniture cupcakes in pale yellow frosting. Figuring that I had had no sugar all day so surely I could Absorb This Pleasure Without Being Undone By It (60), I helped my self to sin. OMG, I am writing to you all now in hopes my experience will serve you all as a warning at this crucil point in our mutual adventures.
58.5
Heed warning signs.
58.6
There are pleasures/torments out there no human mind alone can resist.

I think of Homer and Odysus having his shipmates bind him to the mast that he might hear the sirens yet not be pulled off course.

Anyway, for me in my small world, Super Human Temptation appeared in the form of tiny Tarts. Like Eve biting into the apple, I now know the difference between Higher and Lower Pleasures. Doomed...

Rosada

 

[rodaki]

hi all, welcome back Rosada

recently I had a nice example of 54.5, so I'm trying to understand 58.5 thru that (seem to be in reverse thinking mode lately . .)
My 54.5 involved a gift I received from my mother . . nothing big or fancy, of a modest appearance instead, but carrying great emotional and symbolic value
so, in accordance to this, I'd say that 58.5 would take its toll if whoever finds themselves in the place of 54 was influenced by anything that can spoil a simple but truly joyful occasion
just my two-pence here . .

 

[diamanda]

And my two pence as well - i have found both takes of Wilhelm and
Bradford, on different occasions, to be true for 58:5. Sincerity towards
disintegrating influences is dangerous. How true. And trusting in the
unsustainable, there will be struggles. There will indeed... As about
58:6, i can only agree with the comments above that it's very very
pleasurable, but perhaps not so good for the 'health'. However, what
would life be without some stuff which are not so good for one's
physical health? A nice slice of cake is always good for one's mental
and emotional health

 

[charly]

... very pleasurable, but perhaps not so good for the 'health'. However, what would life be without some stuff which are not so good for one's physical health? A nice slice of cake is always good for one's mental and emotional health

Hi, Diamanda:

Of course, it will be much boring. People use to take risks, not only physical, also spiritual. We do not find many saints in the real life.

I believe that in the context of consult the messages of the YI are almost always true, and even when not true, always profitable for us.

But when reading out of the context of consult there are things that I don´t understand.

To be sincere isn´t always dangerous? If no, what´s the merit?

Problems come trusting and without trusting. And when we trust in something always seems to be sustainable in our opinion. Whan can we do?

Health is not abscence os sickness, the body needs to know the dangerous agents for develop resistence.

The same passes with the spirit that need all sort of experiences for keeping alive our bodies and, if possible, our minds.

Then, why not a slice of cake? For those not fond of cake, there are another little healty temptations. Nobody´s perfect.

Best regards.


Yours

Charly

 

[Trojina]

I think 58.5 warns not to be sincere to something which is certainly not sincere to you, infact it will 'dis integrate' you...ie destroy your integrity. Your integrity is at stake here.

You can be duped by apparent ease, friendliness and banter in 58.5 but you are likley being used in some way (54). What looks like a gift, something easeful and pleasant, is actually going to undermine if you meet it with full sincerity. I think this line counsels withdrawal of unquestioning trust. Trust is ill placed here, its quite clear do not be sincere towards that which will undo you.

I've also known 58.5 as being more or less that something that has passed, is fading, is secondary, no longer important enough for you to be directing your full on sincerity/integrity at. I can recall getting 58.5 about a company i worked for where i was labouring under the impression they wanted to give good service to people and was extending my efforts in that direction whereas they only wanted to rip people off so my sincerity was out of place.

i think in 58.6 ones not really acknowleging some sort of perverse pleasure, one can justify it or thinks one can. think it can very much point to a lack of self honesty about a situation.

I don't count eating cake as a perverse pleasure, I'm seeing 58.6 more as enjoyment of emotional game playing, one man up man ship, ego pleasures masquerading as all sorts of things, for example working harder than everyone else to make oneself feel superior and justifying it by telling oneself 'someone has to do it'.

Cake eating, well thats about the most straight forward pleasure i know (almost)....hmm but you know i could see not eating cake when one wants to in some instances as 58.6 as the pleasures of ego building through self denial like in anorexia say....not that one can say an anorexic is actually enjoying herself but somewhere the denial of healthy pleasure of eating has been superceded by a different kind of sustenance.

edited to concede that cake eating can be perverse although i prefer to think of it as a perfectly sane wholesome activity soothing to mind, body and spirit....generally

 

[rosada]

'Morning..
Rereading my last post I realize I didn't complete the story, I didn't spell out why this one bite of heaven on earth was the first step on the road to hell: It was because I couldn't stop at just one bite!!! I had barely swallowed the first one when I was stuffing in a second!!! That in itself wouldn't have been so awfully wrong but you know what? The second one didn't taste nearly as good as the first and the third one kinda made me feel sick but I still kept on eating!!! NO self control whatsoever!!! So anyway, yes, one slice of cake can be a very civilized pleasure, harmless and delightful; but can you stop at just one? 58.5 The superior man knows the danger in risking even a nibble.
r.

 

[meng]

Thou shalt not nibble.

 

[fkegan]

Hi All,

The line 58.5 is generally a good strong line in a proper and honored place. It is simply being warned that the 6th line, although ahead of it in the sequence, is not to be taken as a sage and may even be offering joys of less than the most respectable nature (it is Yin after all--cf. Wilhelm 58.5 Book III).

58.6 is a Yin line in its proper even place. However, it is still an open line place at the stage of transition to the Next in a hexagram of Joy around the marshy lake or swimming pool. Confucian commentary demands a proper moral judgment here.

Gia-fu rendered the Taoist view of hex 58.6 as "ALLURING JOY. Blame the tempted not the tempter."

Or in our context, sharing cake is a friendly thing. It is the obligation of those who eat the cake to be mindful of what it may do to them, especially as after they finish, their piece of cake will be gone due to the law: You can not eat your cake and have it too.

And eating many more little cakes trying to get it back doesn't work either. I am not clear what is wrong with nibbling. The general principle is that the first bite is all ways the best with a diminishing return on future bites. Also, though you can't eat your cake and have it too. Nibbles do taste best and do leave most of your cake still available for future joy. The question then is how long must you wait to get another first bite, or will the next nibble still be only a second and thus inferior one?

Frank

 

[rosada]

a) Sincerity toward disintegrating influences is dangerous.
b) "Sincerity toward disintegrating influences": the place is correct and appropriate.

The disintegrating influences are represented by the six at the top. the nine in the fifth place, which is strong and correct, is inclined to place confidence in the line above. this is dangerous. However, the danger is avoidable, because by nature and position the present line is strong enough to overcome these influences.

 

[rosada]

Where do you find these icons, meng? They are marvelous!

Well maybe the reason 58.5 says sincerity towards disintegrating forces "is dangerous" rather than "is forbidden" is because the superior man must decide for himself what he can control and what will undo him.

another thought about this hexagram and it's reference to talk - is there anything more seductive than the sound of one's own voice?
r.

 

[my_key]

58.5 - Perhaps a bit like after having been on a diet and lost loads of weight, it's that moment when you allow yourself that one slice of chocolate cake. It tastes glorious, mmmmm lovely. 10 minutes later (after checking that the scales haven't shown an increase in weight) .........Maybe I'll just have another small piece.

It's a bit like any thin end of the wedge situation....especially if that wedge is chocolate cake.

58.6 - To hell with the diet. 30 minutes later .........The whole cake has gone.
Mike

 

[maremaria]

58.5 - Perhaps a bit like after having been on a diet and lost loads of weight, it's that moment when you allow yourself that one slice of chocolate cake. It tastes glorious, mmmmm lovely. 10 minutes later (after checking that the scales haven't shown an increase in weight) .........Maybe I'll just have another small piece.

It's a bit like any thin end of the wedge situation....especially if that wedge is chocolate cake.

58.6 - To hell with the diet. 30 minutes later .........The whole cake has gone.
Mike

 

[rosada]

58.6
# six at the top means:
Seductive joyousness.

A vein nature invites diverting pleasures and must suffer accordingly (cf. the six in the third place). If a man is unstable within, the pleasures of the world that he does not shun have so powerful an influence that he is swept along by them. Here it is no longer a question of danger, of good fortune or misfortune. He has given up direction of his own life, and what becomes of him depends upon chance and external influences.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

I zero in on Wilhelm's comment that at this point there is no longer the question of danger or good fortune or misfortune. I think he is saying the connection has been lost between the inner feeling and the outer experience. Birthday cake no longer creates joy when we've been eating cake every day.

I think how some times we cannot resist asking the I Ching the same question over and over but instead of creating greater clarity more words don't help put our fears to rest. Indeed, they lose all meaning.

Interesting 58.6 to 59 and the desire to build temples. Perhaps this is because after experiencing his inability to resist temptation alone man looks to create something outside himself to help keep him connected with what he senses is a higher self. Kinda like joining a support group.
r.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,
Hex58.6 moves toward hex10. Hex 59 is next in the King Wen Sequence, but it has no direct connection to the 8th hexagram of this decad. Rather it is about the perpendicular axis. Hex 57 and 58 expresses the range of motion through time from the fluid meandering of hex 57 to the settling in the low lying marsh of hex 58. Hex 59 starts up the high energy pair that is ends in the 10th hexagram 60 which is the ultimate quiescent peace of water contained within its topography as a stable lake.

Hex 59 is the high energy (y-axis) of this decad of the human flow in reaction to the thunder stroke or Cupid's arrow to the heart (cf.hex 51 line 3). Wind upon the water makes whitewater waves and foam the opposite of the calm and placid lake of hex 60.

Gia-fu and I rendered the image as:

Wind blows above water. Scattering. Ancient kings made offerings to the gods and strengthened the ancestral temples.

It is more about the use of religious ritual in temples to calm inner turmoil than a program of public works construction. The King establishes the ancestral temples not so much builds them or even remodels them as makes them important again with his concern and his involvement in rituals there.

Frank

 

[rosada]

You don't think there is a connection between 58 and 59? Well, okay, but consider...

59 The king makes the temples important by following the rituals.

Why would he want to do this? Why even bother trying to make temples important. Is the king looking for ways to get votes? No! The king is trying to give his life meaning! Why? Because his life had become meaningless through too many mindless pleasures in 58.6! There is nothing that he can't have just because he's king, yet pleasures gotten this way are joyless. The only way to give his life meaning is to devote himself to ritual. Thus he insists on making his bed every morning not because he has to - he has servants begging for the honor - but because making his own bed gives him a sense of self.

So when seductive pleasure has over taken one (58.6), when one realizes one has become no better than a pig wallowing in mud, the way out is to create a ritual like a morning bath whether one needs it or not (59).
r

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,
There is a choice to be made. Are the hexagrams part of a larger order, or do they follow one after the other, line 6 of one hexagram leading to the next hexagram in general and then on to line one of that hexagram and so forth.

Hexagram 58 line 6 is a Yin line place atop the hexagram of the marshy lake. If it becomes a moving line, developing focus and becoming a Yang line, it changes hex58 to hex 10.
If it stays an open Yin line place it is the line that defines the meaning of the hexagram as the opportunity to be tempted and seduced by this openness.

Getting from the next stage or progression of hex 58 line 6 to hex 59 is quite a long and difficult journey. There is no king in hex 58 and the open line in the 6th line place is not upon a chessboard to become a Queen as its next step.

It is a creative notion to take each line and hexagram as a continuous roll of text and thus using the temple of hex 59 to 'wash' the dirty pig of a seduced line in hex 58.6. Just not my metaphor...it's great though and I congratulate you developing it.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Thank you Frank, however, I shouldn't claim credit for creating the wallowing pig image myself. I got it from Luke and the story of the prodigal son. In fact I can see several key points in that story coinciding with the sequence of the hexagrams:
54. The son doesn't want to be stuck on the low rung in the family anymore.
55. He demands his portion be given to him.
56.- 57. He becomes a wanderer.
58. He squanders everything in dubious pleasures until he finds himself eating with the pigs, at which point - having hit rock bottom, (58.6)...
59. He goes back to his father's house/temple.

Okay, maybe it's all a bit of a stretch but I don't know these other systems you and others have mentioned - perhaps when we're done with the Memorizing project we could take up the study of alternative sequences in greater depth - yet meanwhile I can't buy the idea that seeing a link, a deliberate pattern of evolving consciousness, from hex.1 through hex 64 is just my own fanciful notion. I'm not that good at making things up! But whatever, even if I'm seeing connections the ancient Chinese never intended perhaps these ideas do serve in memorizing the sequence.

Guess I ought to get around to posting the last bit of 58.6..
rosada

 

[rosada]

# Six at the top:

a) Seductive joyousness.

b) The reason why the six at the top seduces to pleasure is that it is not right.

The line is similar to the six in the third place. But while the latter is in the inner trigram and draws pleasure to itself through its desire, the six at the top is in the outer trigram amd tempts others to pleasure. "Seductive joyousness" does not pertain to the person consulting the oracle but shows a situation confronting him. It rests with him whether he will let himself be seduced. It is . however, important to be on one's guard in face of such dubious situations.
There is a somewhat different interpretation for the a text, likewise based upon the Chinese literature on the I Ching.
-Wilhelm

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,

The inherent difficulty of the 6th line, like the 3rd line is that they are Yin lines and thus "open" to outside influence, particularly when they become moving lines and accumulate Yang focus.

A different interpretation for this line could involve Wilhelm's rendering this line as seducing since it is not "bright" rather being dark Yin.

Or it could be seen as being correct, a Yin line place in the even 6th place and thus a Yin sage who is open to absorbing the wisdom of the discussion involved in the fluid ideas and interaction of the pair of lakes or around the swimming pool and thus able to move forward into the Next with new ideas and novel input, moving on to hexagram 10 as it changes.

In the commentary cited by Wilhelm, this line moves on losing its honored 6th and final position to become something new and different and thus not Established...

As to the Prodigal Son:

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

"'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found'" (Luke 15:11-32).

from http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/parable-of-the-prodigal-son-faq.htm

The focus of the parable doesn't seem to be that the lost son hit rock bottom eating with pigs. Rather that the "good" older brother was still taken up with his sibling rivalry and couldn't appreciate that the younger son had come to his senses and come home, no longer wanting to live high, fast and loose.

In terms of hex 58.6 this would indicate that the Yin line in the 6th place isn't just being seduced but is absorbing the wisdom of this Marshy Lake or swimming pool and moving on to the Next where it can walk humbly with its Father. though not without stepping on the back of Father's shoes.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Is there really anyway to avoid the seduction or do you think the I Ching - and the Bible - are saying resistance is futile and that the only way to deal with this world of fascinations and inevitable disappointments is to experience The Fall and then embrace

 

[fkegan]

Is there really anyway to avoid the seduction or do you think the I Ching - and the Bible - are saying resistance is futile and that the only way to deal with this world of fascinations and inevitable disappointments is to experience The Fall and then embrace

Hi Rosada,

Neither the Yi nor the Bible is expected to say you have to succumb to bad things...

There is no question that anyone could resist seduction, although it usually takes a number of bad experiences fully lived through before anyone wants to.

Youth tends to say,"this could be good." Figuring out what is good for you and to you generally takes both experience and age. The hard part is when you say to yourself, "I know this has turned out badly so many times before, and this is already not going well, but I still just have to keep going..."

For actual young people, it is a matter of being clear what is safe within their own boundaries and what is coming at them from others trying to lure them off into something.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Greetings,
I started my previous post and then got called away so hadn't completed the thought...
I'm curious about the idea of The Fall at this moment because I am seeing 3 month old grandson Jax daily go through this cycle where he goes from delighted to be here, curious about everything, wants to put it all in his mouth!, and inevitably it's all too much and he's worn out - but he can't voluntarily turn away! He keeps looking at one more thing, one more flickering leaf until he's so tired he can't sleep and he starts crying. But then Mom picks him up and starts going through the bedtime ritual and he calms right down and is soon happily sleeping. Anyway, seeing a parallel with 58.6 seductive pleasures luring one to stay in this world just a little bit longer but ultimately it becomes too much to keep track of, we're spread out in too many directions and none of it connects, nothing has meaning, nothing makes sense, we need to release this reality and return to the one we knew before, the one where it all fit together but which we now can only reach in sleep or meditation and thus this line of total seduction by the material world leads to the next hexagram of the king approaching the temple, or perhaps in the sequence of 58.6 - 10, where the man is following a wiser guide. Interesting how both sequences have 58.6 pointing towards the need for some higher wisdom.

rosada

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,

Interesting recasting of the Fall and seduction in terms of the little one who is so interested in all the new things in the world that he gets overtired and requires special intervention to take a nap. Eventually, he will be able to stay up longer and crawl around and it will be his mother who is driven to distraction and exhaustion.

As the final line of hex 58, it is a great image of being thoroughly open to whatever seductive influences are offered. As Wilhelm notes, at that point there is nothing more to say as all control is gone. It is the parents' problem to keep him from truly dangerous influences which gets more difficult as the baby grows up and is able to get into more things farther away.

The hex 59 thread has started, perhaps this is a good time to leave the infant napping and move on, letting those who are seduced by the top line of hex 58 carry on from here.

Frank

 

[Trojina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWOViwmuPCU&feature=rel

Is this the seductive pleasures of bouncing or evidence of an innate work ethic as in "i must keep bouncing at all costs, mustn't sleep on the job"