a place to work

[ewald]

No Jesed, I can't see "detail" as "too little".

I gather you guys get the detail thing from 62.0:

Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message:
It is not well to strive upward,
It is well to remain below.
​

I'm quoting Wilhelm here, since I agree with him on the interpretation of this. He explains this with: "[...] one should not strive after lofty things but hold to lowly things." So Wilhelm is not saying this is about detail, but about smaller projects as opposed to bigger ones.

 

[jesed]

What is a detail (at the ligt of the BIG picture), then?

 

[ewald]

A detail is a small aspect of a situation.
So it is not a "lowly thing" or something.

 

[ewald]

As Balkin describes it:

"This is not a time to undertake something big or difficult. Conditions are not in your favor for significant accomplishment. You lack the strength and resources to achieve what you would like. Therefore, you need to understand the demands of the time and scale back your expectations. You should not expect great success, but that does not mean that there is nothing you can do."
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[jesed]

Hi ewald

But I didn't ask about detail as "lowly thing", but as "too little", isn't?

About Wilhelm... if you read his entire comment, you would see that the fact of no great enterprises is present... but also the extra care to secure your own position during that time.

If you want to derivate the "attention to details" in Wilhelm's comment, you won't look at the comment on the Judgement (as you had done), but to a) the comment to the overall picture (the text before the Judgement), and b) the comment to the Image:

a) "But in the present hexagram it is the weak element that perforce must mediate with the outside world. If a man occupies a position of authority for which he is by nature really inadequate, extraordinary prudence is necessary."
b) "In the mountains, thunder seems much nearer; outside the mountains, it is less audible than the thunder of an ordinary storm. Thus the superior man derives an imperative from this image: he must always fix his eyes more closely and more directly on duty than does the ordinary man, even though this might make his behavior seem petty to the outside world. He is exceptionally conscientious in his actions."

The CONTEXT of those TEXTS (you won't find that context on dictionaries, of course) is an officer holding a position beyong his skills, in a time when failing in office implies death. But that doesn't implies "quit the job and search for a lower one"... but "pay more attention to details, in order to at least achieve a small success".


Now.. back to carin' friend. Talking about financial treatments.. if you had two options (selling versus renting).. wich one would be a minor transaction and wich one would be a mayor transaction?

Best wishes

 

[ewald]

I have already implied above that renting would be the minor thing, Jesed. And I already answered your question about detail and too little (sigh).

Could you quote the part of Wilhelm that you are referring to, Jesed? I can's seem to find it.

 

[jesed]

Hi Ewald

Exactly.. is what Bruce, Willowfox and I was talking about the concrete answer... you are saying quite the same than us

Yes, you answered that you don't see detail as "too litlle", but when I asked what was then detail at the light of big picture, you changed "too little" for "lowly thing". So... a detail, within the Big Picture, is indeed too little. So, there is a conection between detail and too little (one of the names you have).

I had quoted those texts of Wilhelm. You can go to http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/hexagram.php?nr=62, and you would find them.

Best wishes

 

[ewald]

Yes, you answered that you don't see detail as "too litlle", but when I asked what was then detail at the light of big picture, you changed "too little" for "lowly thing". So... a detail, within the Big Picture, is indeed too little. So, there is a conection between detail and too little (one of the names you have).

Well, it wasn't quite clear to me what this Big Picture had to do with it, and I interpreted your question as one about the meaning of detail. So I answered what detail is, and how that is irrelevant here, as this part from 62.0 I quoted isn't about it.

I can see that here and there some attention to detail may be needed. I would however in no way see this as a major aspect of hexagram 62. There are other hexagrams as well, where attention to detail is needed. Some that come to mind are 3, 4, 18, 20, 21, 29. I'd say that with some, if not all of these, detail is even more important (at least with 3, 20).

 

[rosada]

I think of 62 as "Leftover Details" It seems to me in this instance the selling of the main home was the the big event, and the Leftover Detail is what to do about the houseboat. Keep or sell? "62.1 The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail. 62.2 discribes an unusual, but workable compromise. By renting the houseboat to her friend, the woman will be able postpone cutting all ties to the city until she knows if this is truly what she wants to do plus, because she is not renting it someone who is intending to live there, she will not be disrupting someone's life should she later decide she does wish to sell.
"34. Perseverance furthers" makes me think that while she may be renting out the boat just to buy herself a little more time, it may turn out to be such a positive arrangement the women decide to make it permanent.

 

[mollies]

"Leftover Detail"

" . . suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail"

" 62.2 discribes an unusual, but workable compromise"

"34. Perseverance furthers" makes me think that while she may be renting out the boat just to buy herself a little more time, it may turn out to be such a positive arrangement the women decide to make it permanent."


Very well said and very well read, too, Rosada, although it seems rather luxuriously , to call a houseboat a detail....but still, in this concept it is right to call it that way

I would like to learn, WHY "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail."


Do I understand 62 well, and is it all about "playing it safe"? (regarding economy)
Then I should say, my friend can ask herself, what feels more safe to you, sell or keep the houseboat?

 

[rosada]

I'm saying "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" means the person has no clear feeling for how to handle this situation because the whole hexagram is about how to handle situations you have no emotional attachment to. 61. Inner Truth was all about being in touch with one's inner feeling. That cycle ran it's course and now we are at it's opposite, situations where one has no inner connection. As Freud would say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. She's all excited about her new home, and no longer has strong feelings about the houseboat. Yet she knows her feelings may change or the market may change, and it is costing money so she ought to do SOMETHING, but at this point she has no FEELING for what she should do. 62.1 She knows she ought to do something, but she has no intuitive guidance for what that something might be, so any move would probably be the wrong one, or take a lot more energy than if she really had a feeling for what she was trying to do. Anyway, then along comes 62.2 and your interest in the boat and that seems to be a very good compromise.

 

[willowfox]

"She asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2. >34"

"Do I understand 62 well, and is it all about "playing it safe"? (regarding economy)
Then I should say, my friend can ask herself, what feels more safe to you, sell or keep the houseboat?"

Your friend does not need to ask any more questions for the moment, the answer is quite clear, that she should hang on to the houseboat for the forseeable future. Like you said before, if she sells it, then she will spend the proceeds quickly, therefore better to keep it at least for a while. Like I said before, there is a financial problem attached to the sale of the boat. But maybe next year or later, everything will change, so I am not saying to keep the boat forever but only for a while and then review the situation at a later date, to sell or not to sell.

"I would like to learn, WHY "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail.""

"The flying bird meets with misfortune" because it is doing something that it should not be doing, ie advancing, in this case it would be her trying to sell the boat. "To have no place to rest the feet is a misfortune for a flying bird" suggests that she would regret selling the boat at the moment because it is about needing a base in the city. Perhaps at the moment she thinks that she no longer needs the boat but I have a feeling that she will again need to use it soon. Cutting all ties with the city is not the right thing for her to do at the present time. If there is a "last detail" here then it would be about the question to sell or keep the boat and that question has been answered.

"playing it safe"?
This is more about having a home in the city, then about financial affairs. Line 62.1 is quite specific about her needing a place to stay in the city. I think that any financial gain would only happen to the short term, in the long term selling the boat would turn into a financial loss for her in more ways than one.

 

[willowfox]

Hex 62.2 could have several meanings. The first one is that the both of you join together, stay together or work together on this houseboat. Letting you rent it would be a good option for her at the present time.

The text says," he/she does not go as far as the sovereign but does meet his minister".
Well, what could this mean? It could mean that she should show restraint and not try to sell the boat. It could also mean that she is seeking advice from high up, but again restrains herself by asking a minister. A minister is a person who gives advice, perhaps this minster is the minister for the interior or a minister for housing. It is not the sovereign (the boss) who gives advice, probably too busy, it is the lowly minister who gives her advice by telling her what the I Ching says for her to do about the houseboat.

Or it could mean that she does not go as far as the estate agent but talks to some more ordinary folk, who tell her to consult the I Ching.

 

[ewald]

I think of 62 as "Leftover Details"

Do you think the danger one is facing in lines 3 and 4, the lack of resources in line 5, and the exceptional bad luck in line 6 are "leftover" things and "details?"

I can't see the leftover part, and I don't think that there is anything minor about these situations, so as to qualify for being called "details." I also don't see how these can be distinguished from other hexagrams in the I Ching by calling them "details."

 

[ewald]

attention to detail? - only when there are no changing lines!

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0:

It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.
​

When you are above, you see the big picture, when you are below, you see the details. So that is advice for 62.0 (the Judgment).

Apparently, people think that what's in the Judgment, goes for all lines in the hexagram. I don't think that is the case.

Does the "Great good fortune" from the Judgment, goes also for line 6 of hexagram 62? Wilhelm has for 62.6: " Misfortune. This means bad luck and injury." In the Judgment is "Perseverance furthers," but is that advice also applicable in that line 6? Are the small things that are possible in the Judgment also possible when you have been injured in line 3?

No. The Judgment is applicable when there are no changing lines. The advice (and prognostication) in it (like the attention to detail of being below here) is only applicable then. It is not when there are changing lines.

Only the hexagram name (which is part of the Judgment) is applicable, as a theme, throughout the hexagram.

 

[bruce_g]

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0:

It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.
​

When you are above, you see the big picture, when you are below, you see the details. So that is advice for 62.0 (the Judgment).

Apparently, people think that what's in the Judgment, goes for all lines in the hexagram. I don't think that is the case.

Ewald,

If I’m one of the several, I think I’ve said already that ‘attention to details’ didn’t come from Wilhelm. I didn’t find the work to be especially authentic and I stopped using it years ago. But there were a few items which rang true to me; not based on literal translation but on common experience. 62 was one of them. It took awhile for it to sink into me, but since I’ve found no other hexagram – not even 20, as you suggest – which speaks to “attention to details” as simply or as clearly as 62, the meaning works for me. I never said “attention to details” encloses the meaning of 62 into a tight fist, but all the little meanings of 62 add up to it nonetheless.

I respect the diligence in your work, and your tenacity to hold to accurate translation, and also that you stand firmly on two feet to defend your conviction. My dawdling has no such authenticity. But I had a simple experience, which moved me deeply, and to that experience Yi have me 62. I gnawed that bone for several days, and from that came this meaning:

62 Small

In times when great things don’t call us out into the world, we make do with what we have. If we are smart and flexible, we’ll find a suitable means to exist.

 

[rosada]

62.1 Although she isn't as informed as he, Rosada decides to respond to ewald's request for more discussion of 62. Silly girl.

62.2 Her ideas aren't orthodox, but the questioner seems pleased with them.

62.3 Ewald however, throws a hissy fit. Oops.

62.4 Rosada wisely chooses to remain silent.

62.5 Bruce steps in with a very workable interpretation ewald should be content with.

62.6 Rosada foolishly ignors this assist and posts again anyway. Some people never learn.

 

[ewald]

Bruce
Thanks for that. I've added your description of 62 to my notes.

Rosada
62.0 Ewald decides to work with what there is.

 

[rosada]

Terrific, LOL Ewald!

In studying 62 I am reminded of the old story of the sage being questioned about his recent connection with Inner Truth.

Seeker: What was your life like before you attained Enlightenment?
Sage: Oh, it was terrible! Chop wood, carry water.
Seeker: And what is it like now that you have attained Enlightenment?
Sage: Oh, it is wonderful! Chop wood, carry water.

 

[lightofreason]

62.6 Rosada foolishly ignors this assist and posts again anyway. Some people never learn.

62.7 - Rosada does not turn to use the IC to flesh out 62, insisting on using the ad hoc perspectives of dilettantes! . tsk tsk.

The problems with sticking to 10th century BC perspectives is they are limiting due to the ad hoc, local context, developing of the traditional work.

The IC comes out of our brains as a species and as such reflects the properties and methods of such operating in a local context - 10th century BC China.

Now we can do better in that we understand the properties and methods of self-referencing (used to form the hexagrams etc) and so get a spectrum of the general, universal, nature of that the traditional 62 represents.

Given the spectrum it is possible to flesh out 62, or any hexagram for that matter, by direct reference to the IC itself.

Ewald's focus is not on the universals but on trying to 'return' to a pure 10th century BC perspective. Obviously a labour of love and no more - to do more he too will have to move into the 21st century AD ;-) but I dont think he wants to do that since it will take him wide and in doing so take him away from his focus.

Given the work on self-referencing, does this make the continued endevours of people to try re-translate the original, traditional, material a waste of time? Not really. What it does is marginalise such endevours, make them local, make them 'academic' exercises to be discussed etc in academic journals and so 'historical' at best in that any 'new' material MUST include understanding of properties and methods of self-referencing.

Oh yes -- the spectrum of 62 (what you dont understand - ask):

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 62
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 55
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 32
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 34
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 16
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 51
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 40
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 54
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 15
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 36
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 46
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 11
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 2
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 24
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 7
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 19
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 31
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 49
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 28
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 43
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 45
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 17
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 47
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 58
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 39
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 63
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 48
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 5
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 8
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 3
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 29
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 60
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 56
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 30
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 50
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 14
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 35
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 21
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 64
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 38
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 52
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 22
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 18
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 26
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 23
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 27
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 4
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 41
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 33
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 13
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 44
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 1
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 12
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 25
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 6
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 10
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 53
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 37
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 57
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 9
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 20
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 42
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 59
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 61

 

[ewald]

I have no idea whether this is related to 62, but anyway.

I'm living over 6 years now in this appartment, and strangely, I've never seen any gnats here. A couple of days ago, I felt an itch on my right calf. I didn't pay much attention to it, but then I felt another itch on my right leg, and another. There were several red lumps on it. Some time later, another itch. Today there were 7 or 8 spots, all on my right leg, several still itching annoyingly.

This morning I suddenly heard a buzzing near my left ear, and I immediately tried to get the little animal away by waving my hand near it. At first it didn't go. I moved a bit away and spotted the gnat. It sluggishly flew around.

I got a newspaper and saw it flying sluggishly to the ceiling. It must have been totally drunk and heavy from all the blood that it took from me. I hit it with the paper, and missed. Slowly it flew to the wall. A bigger than usual gnat, it's body all dark from my blood. Then I got it.

I still feel these itches on my right leg.

 

[bruce_g]

lol

Ewald, that makes me think of 9 - taming the little buggers. But treating the wounds or applying insect repellant to prevent future bites sounds like 62. But for the bug, definitely 21-27.

 

[ewald]

Ah, that further clarifies 62 for me.

 

[nicky_p]

I still feel these itches on my right leg.

Ewald,
Neat alcohol or vinegar will draw the bite out and take the itch away. Although neat alcohol smells better that walkin round smelling of vinegar!

 

[ewald]

Thanks, Nicky.
Unfortunately I don't have either here, at the moment.

 

[jesed]

Hi Ewald

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0:

It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.​

Wrong again. i had already told you, that to derivate "atention to detail" from Wilhelm's text, you WON'T see the judgement (62.0), but the comment to the overall picture (before the Judgement in Wilhelm's text, Book I) and the Image's text and comment.
​

I even suggested you to see your own website to check that

But yes, as you said, this is only about YOU DON'T SEE (you don't want to see?)

Best wishes



​

 

[jesed]

Only the hexagram name (which is part of the Judgment) is applicable, as a theme, throughout the hexagram.

a) You recognized that only the Name is applicable as a theme
b) you recognized that "Too little" is one posible meaning of the Name
c) you recognized that "detail" can be related to "too little"
But you don't want to accept detail as theme... so, when I asked if detail is "too little", you avoided the issue with "detail is not lowly"

By the way...talking about the Hexagram name: Bradford's Glosary includes "in detail" for Xiao3