Advice on all matters

[rosada]

Sometimes we ask questions that the I Ching simply isn't equipped to answer. There are no lines that say specific things like, "Put ten dollars on Secretariat", but there does seem to be a general theme to the advice of the IC - mainly on how to "Keep on keeping on". Anyway, to get more of a sense of what is the I Ching's guiding core philosophy I've been looking at line four as this is the position of the teacher thinking this might be where we find what the IC is most likely to advise.

1.4 (Wavering flight over the depths. No blame.)
You're on your own so just do whatever works for you.
(Maybe all that furious activity working round the clock in line 1.3 led us to advance beyond the known territory - we're now in the Now, a place where no man or guide has ever been before. The free-will zone.)
(Also suggest this line could indicate a feeling of having received way too much information - too much stimulation at line 1.3 and now must decide to apply it - start living the dream - or continue to just visualize.

2.4 (A tied up sack. No blame. No praise)
We have no feedback to give you at this time.
(No ideas have been imprinted on the unconscious. Or The Unconscious is not open to receiving new impressions. Or the unconscious has been filled with so many orders it cannot process any new information)


3.4 (Horse and wagon part, strive for union. To go on brings good fortune. Everything serves to further)
Try something - anything!

4.4 (Entangled folly brings humiliation)
Well, that just made things worse.

5.4 (Waiting in blood - Get out of the pit)
Okay, first real advice - get out of the pit.

6.4 (One cannot engage in conflict. One turns back and submits to fate, changes ones attitude, and finds peace in perseverance. good fortune)
Ah, Now we see the problem. You've been trying to force things, going to far too fast. Come back and recognize there are certain rules we all must follow. Instead of trying to make things happen, LET things happen. EASY DOES IT. It'll be okay.

7.4 (The army retreats. No blame)
Yes, just back up a bit. No hard feelings.

8.4 (Hold to him outwardly also. Perseverance brings good fortune.)
Now promise you'll stick with the known procedures and you'll do fine.

9.4 (If you are sincere, blood vanishes and fear gives way. No blame.)
Just stay in your calm and confident zone and nobody gets hurt. Nothing more is required.

10.4 (He treads on the tail of the tiger. Caution and circumspection lead ultimately to good fortune.)
And remember, this is a shared reality. Good manners mean a lot.

11.4 (He flutters down, not boasting of his wealth, together with his neighbor, guileless and sincere.)
See? The right attitude attacks the right people.

Well..that's as far as I've got enthusiasm for this morning.
Thanks for reading,
Rosada

(went back and tinkered with this a bit incase you read it previously and are thinking it seems changed.)

 

[Trojina]

Sometimes we ask questions that the I Ching simply isn't equipped to answer. There are no lines that say specific things like, "Put ten dollars on Secretariat".

...or questions to which we could find the answer in the normal human way. Some questions are like someone in a dark room with the blinds drawn asking 'is it sunny outside ?' Er you don't need to be sitting there asking that so earnestly you could go and open the blinds and you'd see for yourself.

Such occasions are a bit like when the entire family is sitting in the house and the door bell rings.

'I wonder who that could be ?' people say. 'I wonder if that's John ?' 'I wonder if it's the milkman wanting his money', 'I wonder if it's for next door and they got the wrong house' says someone else. Eventually someone decides they may as well answer the door to find out. Some questions are equivalent to this IMO.

Anyway....I think it's horses for courses.... you know, use the most appropriate means available. If you want to know what the weather is like look out of the window. You could sit down and ask Yi and it might actually tell you to look out of the window. A common mistake would be to think it's describing the weather...well it might be...but the point is you can still use your eyes, ears, brain and so on...It's just sometimes when people discover Yi they seem to think their ordinary human faculties are redundant....

.Anyway...interesting topic. Advice is the realm of line 4, the minister, the one who carries out the actions in the situation.

Let me pick up where you left off...ahem

13.4 In this situation keep your boundaries intact and you will likely find there is no need at all for defences. Imagined extra defences are not needed here as you are already out of reach of the dratted opponent.

 

[pocossin]

Sometimes we ask questions that the I Ching simply isn't equipped to answer. There are no lines that say specific things like, "Put ten dollars on Secretariat".

1.4 (Wavering flight over the depths. No blame.)

-- undecidable: no bet.

2.4 (A tied up sack. No blame. No praise)

-- Keep your purse closed: no bet.

3.4 (Horse and wagon part, strive for union.

-- no bet: jocky is thrown but finishes the race with honor.

4.4 (Entangled folly brings humiliation)

-- no bet. No need to go any farther. All line 4's are no bet. I should add that I consider line 4 to be the line of rest, relaxation and friendship, a giving line, but line 5 is gain, which bettors want.

 

[rosada]

Tom, You've just made my life so much easier! I've been wanting to write out my own I Ching but could never hold my train of thought long enough to finish it. Now I'm just going to publish The One Line I Ching:

"If you have to ask permission the answer is always no!"



Meanwhile I don't agree with your interpretation of line 3.4. I think here we are encouraged to bet. Yes the jockey we choose may very well fall but even so we'll have an experience, which is what we came here for, how we learn, grow in consciousness. So I say 3.4 is advising "Bet on any horse at all, just get in the game!"

(Then after we do and fail miserably, we come to line 4.4 demanding to know why that happened, and God shrugs and says even He didn't think we could be THAT dumb.)

 

[rosada]

13.4 (He climbs up on his wall; he cannot attack. Good fortune.)

In this situation keep your boundaries in tact and you will likely find there is no need at all for defenses.
-Trogina

This leads me to think of the expression, "Good fences make good neighbors."

 

[pocossin]

Meanwhile I don't agree with your interpretation of line 3.4. I think here we are encouraged to bet. Yes the jockey we choose may very well fall but even so we'll have an experience, which is what we came here for, how we learn, grow in consciousness.

I have grown in consciousness just by listening to my relatives talk about their gambling experiences Horse and wagon part is not a good experience. You know, in the movies that's when the stage coach goes over the cliff. Bradford's translation accords more with my idea of line 4:

4.
A team of four horses arrayed alike
The quest of a marital suitor
To advance is promising
Without doubt worthwhile

 

[rosada]

Tom -
Now I really am confused about what you are saying. First you said you took 3.4 to mean No bet, and then you mention the horse and wagon parting (with the stage coach going over the clift - yeah, that wouldn't be a good bet) but now you conclude by saying you like Brad's translation, "..to advance is promising without a doubt worthwhile." Wouldn't that make 3.4 a yes bet then?

Also, while you joke that you learned enough about gambling listening to your relatives talk wouldn't you agree that hexagram 3 is encouraging one to do more than listen - that even though it is Difficult at The Beginning it is appropriate to do something anyway, even though it inevitably ends with 3.6 Bloody tears? Or maybe hex 3 is still advising caution and it's not until 4.1 that we really do have to make a start?

 

[pocossin]

Tom -
Now I really am confused about what you are saying. First you said you took 3.4 to mean No bet, and then you mention the horse and wagon parting (with the stage coach going over the clift - yeah, that wouldn't be a good bet) but now you conclude by saying you like Brad's translation, "..to advance is promising without a doubt worthwhile." Wouldn't that make 3.4 a yes bet then?

As I understands Bradford's 3.4, it is about courtship. This may be a risk, but it is a productive activity, not a zero sum game, because there is mutual advantage if it is successful.

Also, while you joke that you learned enough about gambling listening to your relatives talk wouldn't you agree that hexagram 3 is encouraging one to do more than listen - that even though it is Difficult at The Beginning it is appropriate to do something anyway, even though it inevitably ends with 3.6 Bloody tears? Or maybe hex 3 is still advising caution and it's not until 4.1 that we really do have to make a start?

Bradford translates the title of hexagram 3 as "Rallying". That is, a marshaling of forces. I take it as be prepared.

 

[sooo]

I don't believe all line 4s have one specific piece of advice in common.

I'm retracting what I've said after the above because, in a quick review, I just don't see a common thread of meaning through all hexagrams. I get that line 4 is seen as the minister, but that means many different things, takes different forms in different hexagrams.

 

[rosada]

To continue with the examination of line four which I am conducting partly because I'm curious to see if a general story thread emerges but also because after all my efforts to memorize the I Ching I still haven't got it down and I'm hoping that by trying a different approach - studying the lines by groups - I'll make some progress.
So far I think it's helping, me at least.
Maybe that's 6.4, sometimes help comes when we change attitude or approach.

Anyway, so far the story I'm seeing is that it looks as if the I Ching's key advice is that we're here to make connections. From "1.1 Hidden dragon" and "1.2 Dragon appearing in the field. It furthers one to see the great man." to at least 55, it seems to me we are continually advised about who to associate with and how to create the group experience. So that's where I'm coming from. Naturally I hope others will be bold about describing what they see from their perspective. Particularly because as Bruce mentions the lines can be interpreted in so many different ways, and thinking about the different possibilities aids in memorization.

Before moving forward I going to try recapping what I've seen in the lines so far. This is purely my take on it and if any one feels to post their own story I hope they will.

Okay, 1.4
Wavering dragon over the depths

says to me you've studied the situation throughly (1.3 the superior man is active all day and worries all night), it's time to decide would more study help or is it better to just go forward with what you know? I compare this to all the computer technology we now have available. Does it help or do we enjoy life more without it?

Key thought: Do what works for you. (The free will line)

2.4
Tied up sack. no blame, no praise.

The soul not connected to the body?. Or maybe the idea is that at this point the unconscious doesn't know what we want it to do. We haven't had enough experience so we don't know the ropes (2.3 Hidden lines) but we're willing to keep going (2.3 One is able to remain persevering) and we sure know we don't want to take any more orders (2.3 If by chance you are in service of a king, seek not works but bring to completion), Back when we were doing the Memorizing the I Ching thread I happened to be in a senior citizen assisted living facility on the day we focused on this line. while standing in the lobby I witnessed a corpse being wheeled out on a gurney in a body bag - a tied up sack indeed.

Key thought: Hmm..trying to think of a pithy one liner, a proverb that sums this one up. Something about body and soul? Any ideas? How about "You've gone about as far as you can go"?

3.4
Horse and wagon part. Strive for union. To go brings good fortune. Everything aids to further.

Okay, so we've decided we can't progress any further on our own, willingness to accept help. (see why I'm saying the I Ching is al about making connections?) It may not be the help we thought we needed but as Tom says, when the stage coach is going over the cliff…

Key thought: Beggar's can't be choosers.
(I'm hoping others will suggest some common sayings to stand as the key thought)

4.4
Entangled folly brings humiliation.

Well, looks like the help offered didn't really help because..

Key thought: You can't fix stupid.

5.4
Waiting in blood.
Get out of the pit!!!!!

So, we started out uncertain of what we were doing, really didn't know the rules of the game, tried to take someone else's advice, that didn't work for long and now we're in worse shape than ever.

Key thought: Be the calm in the eye of the storm.

6.4 :bows:
One cannot engage in conflict.
One turns back and submits to fate,
Change's one's attitude,
And finds peace in perseverance.
Good fortune.

So, when you don't know what to do, and someone offer's help, it's good to accept it but you still have to figure out your own way of doing things which may be pretty awkward at first but stay calm and don't fight the system. Maybe you have just been trying to go too far too fast and…

Key thought: It's time for an Attitude Adjustment!

7.4
The army retreats. No blame.

So in striving to make connections the first mistake we usually make as described here in the I Ching is a tendency to try to get too close too soon. We don't know the other person's issues (hidden dragons) and may step on toes (hidden lines) but often some kindly person will offer assistance (hmm..maybe 3.4 for is "making an offer you can't refuse") but we may somehow assume too much, how 4.4 humiliating, and so we have to change our (needy?) attitude and back off. I remember being at a very fancy party once and no one was acknowledging me. The host appeared and gave me a friendly hug and in a reassuring voice said, "Bunch of snobs, hunh?" I was so amazed that he so understood my situation that I responded with a full on body slather hug. I didn't mean to, rather embarrassing, but I quickly stepped back - retreated - and all was fine.

Key thought: "Step away from the table" Suggestions?

8.4
Hold to him outwardly also.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

So now you understand the world and the rules a bit better. In one's efforts to make connection we're seeing what the other guy's boundaries are and promising to respect them.

Key thought: Pledge aligence to the flag?

9.4
If you are sincere, blood vanishes and fear gives way. No blame.

Such a nice thought. Like forgiveness. The blood of the past just vanishes, like you awaken from a bad dream.

Key thought: Hmm..how about "Act your age"? or "Just be yourself"?

10.4
He treads on the tail of the tiger.
Caution and circumspection
Lead ultimately to good fortune.

Like once again we are reminded not to presume.

Key thought: I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.

11.4
He flutters down, not boasting of his wealth,
Together with his neighbor,
Guileless and sincere.

This seems like the real connection we were trying to force back in 3.4. back then we were needy and lost and impressed by those in a better situation. Now we've realized just being who we are is equal to everyone else no matter their station.

Key thought: Something along the lines of "To have a friend be one"?

12.4:hugs:
He who acts at the command of the highest
Remains without blame.
Those of like mind partake of the blessing.

Hadn't realized this before - what a great place to find this thought, right in the middle of Stagnation! Seems to be solving the problem described in 1.6 where the dragon flies too high and goes beyond the flock. Now after coming down, calming down, waiting, patient, persevering even when it feels like things are stagnant, one finally gets to see the higher divine plan - and their place in it.

Key thought:?

13.4
He climbs up on his wall; he cannot attack.
Good fortune.

I like the icon Trogina picked for this line. Looks like some kid sitting on the wall making faces at the neighbors. Ha! But seriously folks, I think in the evolution of the lines I think this one is emphasizing that even if one is acting at the command of the highest -i.e. with the best of intentions (line 12.4) - it's important to remember not to try to tell the neighbors what to do.

Key thought: good fences make good neighbors.

14:4
He makes a difference between himself and his neighbor.
No blame.

Sensible advice to find in the center of Affluence!
I just saw an article in some fancy Better Homes and Gardens type magazine that had pictures of all sorts of crazy decorations people had come up with for the holidays. It struck me that it felt really good to look at these pictures whereas I usually feel a little decreased when I see pictures of elegant expensive displays. It's tricky to be around affluence and not get pulled off your own path by envy. (especially when it's not more money they have but more talent!)

Key thought: Can't think of any motto for this one. Maybe "Keep your eyes on the road and your hands to yourself!"?

Well this has been a long post, I know I'm mostly thinking out loud here so again I think you for reading. Anyone care to tackle 15.4?

15.4
Nothing that would not further modesty
In movement.


rosada

 

[rosada]

Bruce made the comment a few posts back that there didn't seem to be a common thread to line 4 other than it's supposed to be the line of the minister. I agree but still I'm getting value from reading them as a group and trying to put together a story line if only because it helps in memorizing. So I'm going to persevere:

First here's the myth I'm creating to link them all together:
1.4 Superman is out flying and realizes he's out over the ocean and doesn't know if he should keep going or try to make it back to his home shore. (Wavering dragon. No blame.)

2.4 Either way he know's he'll most likely crash land and wind up in a body bag.
(A tied up sack. No blame. No praise.)

3.4 So he abandons his plane and jumps to safety. And there's people down there who look like they might help him. Wonderful!
(Horse and wagon part. Strive for union. To go brings good fortune. Everything acts to further.)

4.4 Except he lands all tangled up in the parachute ropes. How humiliating!
(Entangled folly. Humiliation)

5.4 Not only that but he's landed in someone else's country and those people are the border police coming after him!
(Waiting in blood. Get out of the pit!)

6.4 Can't fight with these guys. The law says he shouldn't be flying into someone else's territory. Just admit it and be glad to keep staying living.
(One cannot engage in conflict. One turns back and submits to fate. Changes one's attitude, and finds peace in perseverance.)

7.4 So superman heads back to his side of the border. No hard feelings. Whew.
(The army retreats. No blame.)

8.4 In fact, the two sides come up with rules and maps and all agree and life happily goes on. (Hold to him outwardly also. Perseverance brings good fortune.)

9.4 After all, the invasion was a stupid misunderstanding and now all is forgiven.
(If you are sincere, blood vanishes and fear gives way.)

10.4 Next time superman walks quietly across the border into the foreign country, being careful to keep to the proper path so there shouldn't be any further trouble.
(He treads on the tail of the tiger. Caution and circumspection lead ultimately to good fortune.)

11.4 And lo! Now the king of this country flies down to greet him. No hidden agenda, just being neighborly.
(He flutters down, not boasting of his wealth, together with his neighbor, guiless and sincere.)

12.4 So superman continues to follow the kings laws and continues to be well treated and others who also want to promote peace between nations gather round so they too can share in the good feelings.
(He who acts at the command of the highest remains without blame. those of like mind partake of the blessing.)

13.4 Of course everybody doesn't agree on everything but good fences make good neighbors so they all get along.
(He climbs up on his wall, he cannot attack. Good fortune.)

14.4. There could be a problem because the king is quite wealthy and superman is not, but superman doesn't let it bother him, he knows who he is so it's cool.
(He makes a difference between himself and his neighbor. No blame.)

15.4 So now superman has become buddies with people in foreign lands and high places, as well as just the average folk. He doesn't let any of it distract him so he eventually becomes very trusted as a messenger and go between because people know he doesn't gossip but only passes on the straight information with out giving anything a personal spin.
(Nothing that would not further modesty in movement.)

16.4 In fact people just love him and gather round him when ever he comes to town - which enables him to get all sorts of good things accomplished.
(The source of enthusiasm. He achieves great things. Doubt not. You gather friends around you as a hair clasp gathers hair.)

To be continued.

 

[rosada]

To recap where we left off…

( 1,2,3,4,5) The superior man had tried brazenly flying over some border only to crash land in a foreign country and in fear for his life.
( 6,7,) Fortunately he was able to talk his way out of trouble and scramble back over to his side of the border.
(8,9,10) Since all else had failed he next tried following the directions and was able to peacefully enter the country unimpeded.
(11,12) In fact, the higher ups now welcomed him and their acceptance encouraged others to accept him too.
(13,14)He was careful not to impose on this positive reception and to not be envious of all the wonderful treasure they showed him.
(15, 16) Indeed he was able to remain so polite and unassuming that folks took him deeper into their confidence and he was able to be very helpful and supportive, which is where we left off.

Now he's attracting a bit of a following...

17.4 In fact, he became so popular that it was a bit of a problem as there were those who just wanted to hang out and be seen with him and they began to tell him little fibs and stories and bits of flattery just to gain his attention. This would have been a problem for a lesser man who might have become dependent on such adulation and lose track of his true purpose. But our hero just kept on persuing his own goals and it eventually became obvious who was with him because they shared his vision and those who were just tagging along because they wanted something from him or just wanted to get their picture taken with him. In fact it was so obvious that no one could blame him for not listening to the fans.
(Following creates success. Perseverance brings misfortune. To go one's way with sincerity brings clarity.
How can there be blame in this?)

Wahoo! 17 lines memorized. How many more to go? Perseverance furthers...

 

[rosada]

I feel I'm making progress with writing my book.
I've got all the pages numbered.

 

[rosada]

Okay, a couple of days have passed so I want to see how many of these lines I can remember without looking
(I went back after trying this and filled in in capitals the parts I didn't remember):

1. Dragon wavering over the depths.
2. A tied up sack. No blame. No praise.
3. Horse and wagon part. Strive for union.To go brings good fortune. Everything works together for good.
4. Entangled in folly. Humiliation.
5. Waiting in blood. Get out of the pit.
6. One cannot engage in conflict. One turns back AND SUBMITS to fate, CHANGES ONE'S ATTITUDE, AND finds peace in perseverance. GOOD FORTUNE.
7. The army retreats. NO BLAME.
8. Hold to him outwardly also. PERSEVERANCE BRINGS GOOD FORTUNE.
9. If YOU ARE sincere, blood vanishes and fear gives way. NO BLAME.
10. Treading on the tail of the tiger. Caution and circumspection.
11. One flutters down, NOT BOASTING OF HIS WEALTH,together with his neighbor, guileless and sincere.
12. HE WHO ACTS AT THE COMMAND OF THE HIGHEST REMAINS WITHOUT BLAME. THOSE OF LIKE MIND PARTAKE OF THE BLESSING.
13. He climbs up his wall, he cannot attack. Good fortune.
14. He makes a difference between himself and his neighbor. No blame.
15. Nothing that would not further modesty in movement.
16. The source of enthusiasm. HE ACHIEVES GREAT THINGS. DOUBT NOT. YOU gathers friends around YOU AS a hair clasp gathers THE hair.
17. FOLLOWING CREATES SUCCESS.PERSEVERANCE BRINGS MISFORTUNE. TO GO ONE'S WAY WITH SINCERITY BRINGS CLARITY. HOW COULD THERE BE blame in this?

Hmm.. lot of slip ups. Especially in placing the "good fortune" and "no blame" comments.
Well, just so as not to get hopelessly bogged down I'll add one more straw to the camel's back"

18.4
Tolerating what has been spoiled by the father. In continuing one sees humiliation.

Not sure yet how I'll weave this into my story but I think I'll remember it because just a few minutes ago I was reading about Obama's supporters being so disappointed with his continuing many of the Bush era injustices when he had run on a platform of change. So that sounds like an example of tolerating what had been spoiled by his predecessor and the humiliation that then came to him.

rosada

 

[Trojina]

sidenote

I've been able to remember the whole book for many years, not through any conscious effort at all...it happened all by itself. If you use it over a number of years and consult quite often it just stays in your mind. There are still lines I often mix up like 56.5 and 62.5 but generally I could reel off every line...

....this is handy for on the spot readings for friends. I say 'give me a number between 1 and 64' they do, then I say give me a number between 1 and 6, they do, and voila we have a hexagram and a line. In such cases I become a human casting tool. Not sure it's effective but I find it interesting sometimes, and it can work well if the friend has no awareness of Yi at all.

But why do you want to memorise it all so much ? An advantage of not remembering it is you have more of a surprise when you get your hexagram. When I cast with coins I can see the hexagram forming so by line 4 I can find myself having thoughts about the answer already. I try not to do that, I'd rather not notice and wait till the hexagram is drawn to think about it.

OTOH a fun aspect of remembering it all is one can play games in one's head with numbers that crop up. I recall being in hospital in ward 28 bed 16 ....and it kept my mind entertained for a while to try to figure the moving lines with no paper and pen to draw it. I'd immediately seen my placement as hexagram 28 changing to 16.


Anyway...off track...line 4s....advice erm, line 4 the call to act or not

19.4 ? eeerm...I can't think of much to say about this. Is it just me or are the lines of 19 somewhat bland and repetitious ?



I'll have to hand back over to you Rosada.........

19.4 ?