As good of a place as any?

[willowfox]

Perhaps some of you should listen to the song, by the English group Hawkwind, called the "Right to decide".

Some will get it but one person here will not.

 

[heylise]

Bruce started this thread as something 'general', not naming any special person, or any special event. Of course it has been triggered by something which happened, but if that had been the only instance of this problem, he would not have said anything. So let's stay on the road he started, without attacking anyone.

When big arguments arise, lots of heated discussion, I often enjoy it, and when I don't, I simply skip that thread. I do like things being said in a clear way. When someone includes personal attacks, he/she reveals him/herself, but nothing really about the one who is attacked.

When one needs advice, one can search for someone who proved him/herself to be a good diviner or astrologer or whatever else. The other option is a forum like this. The third is of course, to ask 'someone', like people do in fairs. Sit on a chair and the lady behind the table predicts your future for once and for all. No control, no security, it's just that.

When someone asks for advice here, there are many people who see the answer, and that is a very good thing. I think it is in the querents interest, that the answer is being discussed among all of us. There are no quibblers here, which is very unusual. When more than a few people get together, there is usually at least one like that. When an answer is given in a good way, whatever that answer is, nobody will object, even when it is very different than his/her own way of interpreting. Often the other way is given though as an alternative.

My only real concern is the querent. Sometimes an answer is given in a way which takes the querents own decision out of his/her hands. And that bothers me a lot. Any answer is good, as long as that decision is still with the querent. So when anyone else of the forum does not agree with your answer, then listen, and react open and with dignity. It is one of the very important features of a good forum, that there is an open discussion. A discussion which the querent can understand too. No angry shouting at each other over his/her head, but curiosity to each other's point of view.

A querent often speaks for the first time, or thinks he/she does not know enough to find his/her own answer. That is a position of vulnerability. We should treat that with the utmost care and gentleness. Maybe it would be a good idea, to start a new thread as soon as someone feels irritation? Then the querent too can read in that other thread how people have a heated fight, without it being in the original one? After all, the fight is always about general issues, not about a particular reading alone.

Fights and everything, I must admit that I usually like it. But when I see an insecure person, getting a definitive answer which is almost an order, then everything in me protests. Nobody here is in possession of "the infallible word of Yi or God", everyone is just passing things along in his/her own best way.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Willowfox,

Have you actually taken the time to read everything said so far here? If you did it would be obvious that this isn’t about you or me or anyone else in particular. I started this thread only as a vehicle for our self improvement. If you object to that, then that is your problem.

I still hope to hear from others. But if you throw up your hands in frustration or remain silent, I can easily understand that. I sometimes ask myself "why bother?" also. It's easier and safer to give up, to remain aloof and insulated from awkward social discourse.

 

[willowfox]

I am afraid that trojan made it personal, read her post again.

 

[bruce_g]

Willowfox,

Look, you're a talented individual. Can't we just learn and move ahead? You're not perfect, I'm not perfect, Trojan isn't perfect, no-one here is perfect. We're a bunch of nuts in the first place, with all this I Ching stuff . Why not just relax, put 'er into cruise control and enjoy the ride?

 

[Sparhawk]

We're a bunch of nuts in the first place, with all this I Ching stuff

Now, those are the wisest words I've ever read on this forum... LOL!!

 

[luz]

lol!!!

Not long ago, that is exactly what I would have thought about a forum like this one.. :bows:

 

[rosada]

:bows:

 

[pakua]

"No angry shouting at each other ..., but curiosity to each other's point of view"

This is what I was referring to on the other thread.

What it means to me is a lack of respect for each other, which implies arrogance.

 

[frank_r]

It's the old discussion of the freedom of speach here, for me the most important thing is that somebody has humor,and this I can learn a lot on the forum here because in the end we are all playing with words, and some of us are really good in playing.
That's the moment I'm really enjoying reading other messages.

And on the other hand there must also be sincerity, for me that's a matter of trust. Do I trust the other person, do I open myself and give something or do I keep it to myself knowing not to be hurt but on the other hand knowing that I also never will learn from the others.

For me it's both in the same game. So when I don't like giving myself open and free I don't react, Im I eager to learn I take a shot and give something.
But I'm always deciding for myself if I want to play here.

In normal live I'm a therapist and I get paid to be a professionel there I must watch if I'm going to far or not.

Here on the forum there is no therapist - client relation and there is no father-son or mother -daughter etc relation, where are all equal. So for me we don't have to take care with each other. You can join the discussion or you can stop the discussion. So for me the less rules the more freedom the deeper and equal the conversations will be. In that kind of atmosphere I have the most fun, and on the other hand I can learn a lot.

So for me how less rules how better.

 

[heylise]

Since these are my words..
That is not what I meant with curiosity. I meant just curiosity. Open. Without any hint back to what has been before.

 

[bruce_g]

I have this picture in my head. We all sit in a circle, and each points a finger to the one on the left. Some laugh. Others don’t yet see the finger pointing back to them.

 

[nicky_p]

Here on the forum there is no therapist - client relation and there is no father-son or mother -daughter etc relation, where are all equal. So for me we don't have to take care with each other.

For me I'm afraid I'd have to respectfully disagree. I tried to write about why but the words weren't right. But I did remeber a story snippet that I wrote a while back. Maybe it fits with the guidlines thing as well? It has a swear word in it so I'll appologise in advance if I offend anybody's sensibilities.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I have something for you.” She held out her hand offering up its contents to the young girl. It winked enticingly. The girl raised her own hand towards it, mesmerised by its beauty. Wrinkled fingers curled slightly breaking the spell for a moment. The girl looked up into the eyes of the old woman.
“Its precious” she warned. “Don’t **** with it.”
The girl dipped her eyes to the floor, her hand hovering in mid air.
“Don’t take it for granted.”
She lifted her gaze, her head lilting to one side.
“Don’t play too much, don’t work it too hard.”
The girl’s brow furrowed slightly, trying to take in the wisdom of what this mature, experienced woman was imparting. Affording the due reverence.
“If you’ve got it flaunt it, but don’t give them everything.”
The girl’s hand dropped to her side. “I’ll just put it on a shelf and look at it then, shall I?” She hated the sullen contrariness she could hear in her own voice, making her flush.
The old woman grabbed her wrist thrusting the contents into her hand, her grip betraying a secret strength that startled the girl, snapping her attention up to meet the old woman’s gaze. A girlish lopsided smile spread across the wizened face.
“Now that would be a waste.”

 

[Trojina]

Willowfox if you think saying 'making false predictions' makes it personal, then so be it. If you think you are that person, if the cap fits, go ahead and wear it.

Like some others here i think we do have a responsibility of a kind to querants here and I've already seen you do damage on more than one occasion. Either promoting false hope or fear.

It is not enough just to say 'they can take or leave the advice' when the advice is of such a directive and definate nature it could have great impact on someone in a vulnerable state.

I've no wish for any further dialogue with you.

 

[Sparhawk]

I have this picture in my head. We all sit in a circle, and each points a finger to the one on the left. Some laugh. Others don’t yet see the finger pointing back to them.

Well, I couldn't find a circle of people as described but I found these:

​

Some poor souls feel like this:

​

 

[pakua]

heylise,

I think we mean the same thing... if there is openness and curiousity to the other's point of view,it means we are not vigorously defending our own point of view, therefore no angry words.

If respect is there, it will all be automatic.

 

[Sparhawk]

On topic, in a twisted sort of way...

To speak with some authority we should all get one of these: Logos in I Ching

I get a 10% referral commission... LOL!!

L

 

[heylise]

Yes Pakua, agree

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

On topic, in a twisted sort of way...

To speak with some authority we should all get one of these: Logos in I Ching

I get a 10% referral commission... LOL!!

L

Why doesn't Hilary give those out here?

 

[autumn]

Hmm, can't see where autumn has posted this - maybe a problem with my browser?

But Bradford has a translation at http://www.hermetica.info/ if you wanted to have a look.

ty

 

[frank_r]

Hallo Nicky_p

I'don't understand your message with what you respectfully disagree. Can you please be more specific, put it in your own words than I can understand it and learn from it.
It's a intersting story but I don't understand what it has to do with this subject.
I'm only refering that this is a open forum. And everyone can leave if he/she wants to.


Frank_r

 

[hilary]

Luis? Bruce? You've been posting here all these years and you don't have a certificate?

 

[nicky_p]

Hi fank_r

In all honesty I wasn't going to post - I pressed the wrong button and away it went. I was going back to change it and the computer crashed :bag:

I hadn't quite finished or was sure that it made sense. But what I was trying to get at was that I thought we had a duty of care to each other. There are people with more experience and so should be afforded that respect. And I don't think that we are all equal. That would imply that we're all the same and I know I don't have the wieght of experience or knowledge that others do.

It probably didn't come across very well. But it's hard to put into words sometimes - just like it's hard to set up guidelines. I like what Lise says about trying to remember that people are just trying their best. I understand that there is a time and a place for 'play' and that that sometimes yields the best results. Sometimes it's easier to discuss your problems over the internet rather than sat in front of someone but it's a double edged sword. I don't have to look you in the face while I tell you what I think. That could lead to me not holding myself accountable for what I say because I can't see the effects, no? And yet there are still effects. Surely it's right to be at least mindful of this? Or at least to warn your 'patients' that you're experimenting on them?

 

[bruce_g]

Luis? Bruce? You've been posting here all these years and you don't have a certificate?

No, but my shrink said I already am certified.

 

[frank_r]

Hello Nicy_p

That would imply that we're all the same and I know I don't have the wieght of experience or knowledge that others do.

yes, I agree but if you try to go beyond your fear and are trying to play with your words, then you talk from your heart, and for me that's beyond all experience or knowledge. (hear who's talking because that's wishfull thinking on my part, but thats a start)

But it's hard to put into words sometimes - just like it's hard to set up guidelines.

That's the reason I don't like guidelines, maybe it's nececary in many occasions but for me I keep on looking for people who are communicating from the heart and want to go beyond rules. If you have rules then there always are people who want to break them, looking for real freedom. Maybe I'm a romanticus in that respect but I don't give up. And of course I also try to be respectfull with other people. But I mentioned that before in my last message.

Or at least to warn your 'patients' that you're experimenting on them?

But I don't see anybody here as a patient on this forum, when you are a patient you have to go to a therapist, there you have a different relationship. In that respect I try to see everybody as equal on this forum.

Best wishes from Frank R

 

[Trojina]

I can't agree Frank. Firstly it seems to me you are assuming equality with another is to mean lack of care or any kind of responsibility.

I know there are power issues in client/therapist relationship but nevertheless the client is always equal to the therapist because we are all equal to each other without exception.

Of course everyone here on the forum is equal, doesn't mean one person might not be in a position of vulnerability. I don't see having some responsibility for another soley the province of therapists etc, and family members. A sense of responsibilty isn't something you put down at 5pm because you have finished work. ( I have little faith in the idealised therapist/client relatinship anyway its as open to abuse, as much as any other relationship, perhaps even more since a client is paying someone to 'care'.)

Still I guess its an academic point now, and somewhat 'off topic' but just wanted to say I think i see what Nicky means. Well I differ from her in that I think everyone is equal always, but sometimes a person might be at a more vulnerable time in their lives (but still equal)

 

[rosada]

Interesting that we happen to be discussing hex 6 Conflict at this time over on the memorization thread. Perhaps the I Ching has some ideas that could be useful here. The IMAGE is the trigram for Heaven moving upward, above and trigram for Water which moves downword, below. So ..Conflict, because Heaven and Water go their separate ways. The comment is,
"Thus in all his transactions the superior man carefully considers the beginning."
Originally I had assumed this to mean we should consider our different points of view and then accept guidelines because we would all come to agree that behaving in a certain manner would be in everyone's best interest. But now I'm getting it that it's unlikely people are going to agree to any guidelines, but KNOWING this is of great value anyway. That is, I was assuming we would come up with some insight like, "Starting out, we all agree to get along." Now I'm seeing that, "Starting out, we might as well know up frount we probably aren't going to all get along." This is good. It's now out in the open that we have different values. I for one am probably going to be more outspoken when I feel posters have been rude, but on the other hand, I may not be, because I realize that even if they are, everyone else sees it too, and I'm not responcible to make anyone else behave.

 

[Trojina]

Oh also re 'the old freedom of speech argument' you bought up earlier Frank, I think its not so easy to have absolute freedom of speech. For example racist or sexist views or language are by and large not tolerated on most forums. These days not so many guidelines are needed as most people just accept that racism is not acceptable. However I'm sure there was a time when someone defending someone inciting racial hatred was seen as defending 'free speech'.

I suppose this does not have direct bearing on current issues as we are dealing with matters of opinion on which we are not all agreed. However even in these issues I feel the 'free speech ' arguments a bit simplistic - as trying to brush under the carpet the objections raised recently.

I agree with you though in principle, the fewer rules the better.

 

[frank_r]

Hello Trojan,

Firstly it seems to me you are assuming equality with another is to mean lack of care or any kind of responsibility. )

LOL, Have you really read my post or are you really into hexagram 6.

Best wishes Frank R

 

[Trojina]

No I'm not especially into 6 ? This is a discusson forum so I am talking to you about the point of view you expressed.

I understood your point as that on a forum no one need take much responsibilty for another because they were equal, not like a therapists relation with a client or a family relationship ? I disagreed with that point of view, thats all.