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Beginners' room
- Thread starter hilary
- Start date
Hi again! I keep asking some questions and trying to make sense out of the hexagrams.
Can second hexagrams (the ones you get after changing the "changing lines") be considered as "advises"?
Then I have a question on a particular reading...
Asking if a certain work project was going to take place I got hex 20 -> 37.
Does this mean that the decision makers are evaluating it? And that more energy is required in presenting the pros and cons?
Gee, I thought all of this was going to be a lot easier! ehehehehe
Then another question. I got replicas of chinese ancient coins with my Wilhelm copy of the Yi. Which side is the Ying and wich is the Yan? One side has less "doodles" than the other
Thanks again,
Alvaro
Can second hexagrams (the ones you get after changing the "changing lines") be considered as "advises"?
Then I have a question on a particular reading...
Asking if a certain work project was going to take place I got hex 20 -> 37.
Does this mean that the decision makers are evaluating it? And that more energy is required in presenting the pros and cons?
Gee, I thought all of this was going to be a lot easier! ehehehehe
Then another question. I got replicas of chinese ancient coins with my Wilhelm copy of the Yi. Which side is the Ying and wich is the Yan? One side has less "doodles" than the other
Thanks again,
Alvaro
The yang has less doodles.
Like any new study the I Ching will all become a lot clearer once you play with it for a while. Its like meeting a new and interesting friend who comes from the other side of the world. At first it all seems a little awkward and misunderstandings arise, but eventually you start to communicate openly and freely. It takes time, but I can tell you, in the 25 years or so I have been a student of the sage, I have had no better friend.
Like any new study the I Ching will all become a lot clearer once you play with it for a while. Its like meeting a new and interesting friend who comes from the other side of the world. At first it all seems a little awkward and misunderstandings arise, but eventually you start to communicate openly and freely. It takes time, but I can tell you, in the 25 years or so I have been a student of the sage, I have had no better friend.
Hi Alvaro and welcome,
The I Ching is a language, a symbolic language, with which you can converse with your subconscious and unconscious minds, and also, I believe, with the collective unconscious which we all share. It's symbolic because the sub- and unconscious minds do not function through logic, which is a linear process that the conscious, logical mind uses to make sense of change.
Basically, there are two ways of understanding what the Yi is telling you, and you'll find devotees of both approaches on Clarity. One is highly analytical, where relationships of lines, trigrams and hexagrams are analysed to the nth degree. The 'master' of this approach is probably Chris Lofting. The other way is much more intuitive, allowing the Yi to trigger and develop our intuitive abilities. Which approach you favour will depend on your particular leanings. My background is maths and physics, but I find the intuitive approach better for me. You'll find a wide range of approaches on this site, which is one of its values and delights.
As for how to interpret the readings, or which side of the coins represent which aspect of the yang/yin, I don't think it matters. For example, which side of the coins you take to be the yang or yin can be a choice you make. Your all-knowing sub- and unconscious minds will communicate with you in whatever way you choose. But once you have chosen a particular method, stick with it. Also, I suggest you don't get confused about whether to use the three coin method, or the 16 token method, or the 50 yarrow stalks. And don't worry about the different probabilities of each method that you'll read about in various books. Choose whichever feels right for you.
You've started on a never ending quest. Enjoy.
Michael F.
The I Ching is a language, a symbolic language, with which you can converse with your subconscious and unconscious minds, and also, I believe, with the collective unconscious which we all share. It's symbolic because the sub- and unconscious minds do not function through logic, which is a linear process that the conscious, logical mind uses to make sense of change.
Basically, there are two ways of understanding what the Yi is telling you, and you'll find devotees of both approaches on Clarity. One is highly analytical, where relationships of lines, trigrams and hexagrams are analysed to the nth degree. The 'master' of this approach is probably Chris Lofting. The other way is much more intuitive, allowing the Yi to trigger and develop our intuitive abilities. Which approach you favour will depend on your particular leanings. My background is maths and physics, but I find the intuitive approach better for me. You'll find a wide range of approaches on this site, which is one of its values and delights.
As for how to interpret the readings, or which side of the coins represent which aspect of the yang/yin, I don't think it matters. For example, which side of the coins you take to be the yang or yin can be a choice you make. Your all-knowing sub- and unconscious minds will communicate with you in whatever way you choose. But once you have chosen a particular method, stick with it. Also, I suggest you don't get confused about whether to use the three coin method, or the 16 token method, or the 50 yarrow stalks. And don't worry about the different probabilities of each method that you'll read about in various books. Choose whichever feels right for you.
You've started on a never ending quest. Enjoy.
Michael F.
chrislofting
(deceased)
- Joined
- Nov 19, 1971
- Messages
- 394
- Reaction score
- 3
Michael,
You wrote:
> Basically, there are two ways of understanding what the Yi
> is telling you, and you'll find devotees of both approaches
> on Clarity. One is highly analytical, where relationships of
> lines, trigrams and hexagrams are analysed to the nth
> degree. The 'master' of this approach is probably Chris
> Lofting. The other way is much more intuitive, allowing the
> Yi to trigger and develop our intuitive abilities. Which
> approach you favour will depend on your particular leanings.
> My background is maths and physics, but I find the intuitive
> approach better for me. You'll find a wide range of
> approaches on this site, which is one of its values and
> delights.
>
There is IMHO an error in your understanding here or more so you 'cutting' of a whole into parts to make a point.
There is no 'other way', it is all part of the ONE way. What you call in 'intuitive' way is in fact the way of the species-nature in that we work off instincts/habits, WHOLE patterns of behaviour programmed or learnt (and so refining the programme). Thus our intuitions develop as we age but for some their instincts are refined enough at birth to allow their 'intuitions' to be better than that of others.
'my' way reflects more the brain's way with the focus on the PARTS of the wholes and so the the ability to refine instincts/habits more effiencently then in 'day to day' living that is, from the species-nature perspective, overly reactive. Our consciousness allows us to be proactive.
In 'my' perspective there is more work required to understand the parts 'clearer' but in doing so we refine the instincts, we give ourselves more choices in expression of behaviour given a context and so can integrate better with that context, we reduce the need to continuously monitor the context and so can 'flow' in that context. (thus getting and reading W/B etc is not going to aid in development to the fullest degree quickly - I Ching is moving into a semester or so of learning the basics in that in learning the hidden aspects is also needed, where once you understand the parts etc so you re-integrate that which has been differentiated and all becomes 'seamless'. ;-))
Thus the 'ultimate' in learning is understanding all of the parts, the hexagrams (trigrams, dodecagrams) as well as their relationships to others, and then to forget them where the learning process is over in general and local dynamics can then 'add' to the already-learnt refined forms of hexagrams etc., thus you no longer use coins etc etc in that your intuition comes up with a hexagram 'instinctively' ;-)
The IDM material identifies the core neurological and cognitive dynamics that feed into our consciousness and set-up a template for our consciousness to use in specialisations, as in the qualities we associate to the signs/symbols of the I Ching. By understanding the properties of the template so we can quickly understand the basics of any specialisation and so aid in 'resolving' issues that come up regarding interpretations of events within the specialisation.
As to methods in the use of 'random' events, the bias to the yin we find in yarrow sticks reflects a bias of the species-nature to conservation of energy, to protection overall. In ancient times this would have been 'closer' to reality than in modern times where our perspectives are more more exploiting, opportunist, and so 'yang', consciousness-nature - expending of energy - and so more suited to the coin tossing method.
This gets us into issues of 'framing the question', if it is integrating then perhaps the yin perspective is better; if differentiating then perhaps it is the yang perspective that is better. (I say 'perhaps' in that some contexts will 'demand' one system over the other regardless of the format of the question!)
Better-still is the question method in that it has a better chance of eliciting the 'best fit' hexagram for a given situation but includes consciousness in the method and so we must think carefully re our answers to these seemingly 'general' questions! (e.g. see the changing trigram, the 'quick IC' page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html )
Chris.
You wrote:
> Basically, there are two ways of understanding what the Yi
> is telling you, and you'll find devotees of both approaches
> on Clarity. One is highly analytical, where relationships of
> lines, trigrams and hexagrams are analysed to the nth
> degree. The 'master' of this approach is probably Chris
> Lofting. The other way is much more intuitive, allowing the
> Yi to trigger and develop our intuitive abilities. Which
> approach you favour will depend on your particular leanings.
> My background is maths and physics, but I find the intuitive
> approach better for me. You'll find a wide range of
> approaches on this site, which is one of its values and
> delights.
>
There is IMHO an error in your understanding here or more so you 'cutting' of a whole into parts to make a point.
There is no 'other way', it is all part of the ONE way. What you call in 'intuitive' way is in fact the way of the species-nature in that we work off instincts/habits, WHOLE patterns of behaviour programmed or learnt (and so refining the programme). Thus our intuitions develop as we age but for some their instincts are refined enough at birth to allow their 'intuitions' to be better than that of others.
'my' way reflects more the brain's way with the focus on the PARTS of the wholes and so the the ability to refine instincts/habits more effiencently then in 'day to day' living that is, from the species-nature perspective, overly reactive. Our consciousness allows us to be proactive.
In 'my' perspective there is more work required to understand the parts 'clearer' but in doing so we refine the instincts, we give ourselves more choices in expression of behaviour given a context and so can integrate better with that context, we reduce the need to continuously monitor the context and so can 'flow' in that context. (thus getting and reading W/B etc is not going to aid in development to the fullest degree quickly - I Ching is moving into a semester or so of learning the basics in that in learning the hidden aspects is also needed, where once you understand the parts etc so you re-integrate that which has been differentiated and all becomes 'seamless'. ;-))
Thus the 'ultimate' in learning is understanding all of the parts, the hexagrams (trigrams, dodecagrams) as well as their relationships to others, and then to forget them where the learning process is over in general and local dynamics can then 'add' to the already-learnt refined forms of hexagrams etc., thus you no longer use coins etc etc in that your intuition comes up with a hexagram 'instinctively' ;-)
The IDM material identifies the core neurological and cognitive dynamics that feed into our consciousness and set-up a template for our consciousness to use in specialisations, as in the qualities we associate to the signs/symbols of the I Ching. By understanding the properties of the template so we can quickly understand the basics of any specialisation and so aid in 'resolving' issues that come up regarding interpretations of events within the specialisation.
As to methods in the use of 'random' events, the bias to the yin we find in yarrow sticks reflects a bias of the species-nature to conservation of energy, to protection overall. In ancient times this would have been 'closer' to reality than in modern times where our perspectives are more more exploiting, opportunist, and so 'yang', consciousness-nature - expending of energy - and so more suited to the coin tossing method.
This gets us into issues of 'framing the question', if it is integrating then perhaps the yin perspective is better; if differentiating then perhaps it is the yang perspective that is better. (I say 'perhaps' in that some contexts will 'demand' one system over the other regardless of the format of the question!)
Better-still is the question method in that it has a better chance of eliciting the 'best fit' hexagram for a given situation but includes consciousness in the method and so we must think carefully re our answers to these seemingly 'general' questions! (e.g. see the changing trigram, the 'quick IC' page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html )
Chris.
hilary
Administrator
- Joined
- Apr 8, 1970
- Messages
- 19,292
- Reaction score
- 3,526
Hi Alvaro,
Chris is a very generous man, and of late he's been working so hard on explaining them that some people here have found they can relate to his results, which is great. However, I hope he won't mind if I say that millions of people over thousands of years have had extraordinary, life-changing relationships with Yi without any understanding of his ideas. In other words, they're optional, a kind of 'advanced module' for those with that kind of talent.
Personally, I think that the biggest difference you might find here is between people like me, who think that 'random' divination is a means of receiving specific messages that are meant for you, and those (such as Chris) who think that it really is random. That would mean that traditional divination only gave you a 1 in 4096 chance of getting the most appropriate answer ('best fit', Chris calls it). (4096 is the number of possible answers.)
Hence Chris has developed his own method that allows you to control the way the answer is created, removing the 'random' element that can't be analysed. He calls it 'proactive', though, not 'controlled'.
There are other methods of generating hexagrams - by trigram or line by line - based on your own understanding, rather than trusting in whatever-is-behind-divination. I have a feeling Chris's is the most complicated/sophisticated.
Anyway...
- it does get easier
- it never stops being confusing. In fact, being confused to start with is a good sign.
About your work project question:
It sounds as if you asked not about what you could do, but about what was going to happen. But then you are looking at the answer for hints about what you might be able to do. There are ways this can work... but it makes understanding the answer more difficult, as you keep having to decide whether each part of the answer is description of what will happen, or advice for you, or somehow both.
Contemplating People in the Home... sounds like standing back and looking at the company, hoping for the answer to emerge from there. And the vision here is an ideal company - a living structure, where everyone finds fulfilment in their particular role, and a safe refuge.
From line 3, it sounds as if the decision is in the balance! It could also be that the decision makers (are they kind of 'middle management'?) are looking at how things grow, how people work together, to see whether the project is compatible with the firm. In other words, that they are taking a hands-off, see-what-emerges approach.
So the big question is - can you influence the outcome? Line 1 is about this: for a small person, who has no influence, to look at things like a child, just to see what good things he might be given, is not a mistake. (What else could he do, after all?) A 'noble one' should be embarrassed by this attitude, though, and inspired to change it!
There could be an underlying question for you about whether this company really is the ideal haven where you can fulfil your talents - or are they going unrecognised? Could it be time for that conflict to come out in the open?
Those ideas in the last paragraph come mainly from the 'patterns of change' - one of the 'optional extras', but a good place to look for advice and direction when the question didn't ask for any. They lead to more questions than answers: can you influence the outcome? If you feel powerless, is it time for you to challenge the status quo, or is it safer to keep your head down? It could be that after thinking on this for yourself, and finding the real questions (not necessarily the ones I'm guessing at), you might come back to Yi on this one.
Anyway, please tell us more about the background and how things are working out!
Chris is a very generous man, and of late he's been working so hard on explaining them that some people here have found they can relate to his results, which is great. However, I hope he won't mind if I say that millions of people over thousands of years have had extraordinary, life-changing relationships with Yi without any understanding of his ideas. In other words, they're optional, a kind of 'advanced module' for those with that kind of talent.
Personally, I think that the biggest difference you might find here is between people like me, who think that 'random' divination is a means of receiving specific messages that are meant for you, and those (such as Chris) who think that it really is random. That would mean that traditional divination only gave you a 1 in 4096 chance of getting the most appropriate answer ('best fit', Chris calls it). (4096 is the number of possible answers.)
Hence Chris has developed his own method that allows you to control the way the answer is created, removing the 'random' element that can't be analysed. He calls it 'proactive', though, not 'controlled'.
There are other methods of generating hexagrams - by trigram or line by line - based on your own understanding, rather than trusting in whatever-is-behind-divination. I have a feeling Chris's is the most complicated/sophisticated.
Anyway...
- it does get easier
- it never stops being confusing. In fact, being confused to start with is a good sign.
About your work project question:
It sounds as if you asked not about what you could do, but about what was going to happen. But then you are looking at the answer for hints about what you might be able to do. There are ways this can work... but it makes understanding the answer more difficult, as you keep having to decide whether each part of the answer is description of what will happen, or advice for you, or somehow both.
Contemplating People in the Home... sounds like standing back and looking at the company, hoping for the answer to emerge from there. And the vision here is an ideal company - a living structure, where everyone finds fulfilment in their particular role, and a safe refuge.
From line 3, it sounds as if the decision is in the balance! It could also be that the decision makers (are they kind of 'middle management'?) are looking at how things grow, how people work together, to see whether the project is compatible with the firm. In other words, that they are taking a hands-off, see-what-emerges approach.
So the big question is - can you influence the outcome? Line 1 is about this: for a small person, who has no influence, to look at things like a child, just to see what good things he might be given, is not a mistake. (What else could he do, after all?) A 'noble one' should be embarrassed by this attitude, though, and inspired to change it!
There could be an underlying question for you about whether this company really is the ideal haven where you can fulfil your talents - or are they going unrecognised? Could it be time for that conflict to come out in the open?
Those ideas in the last paragraph come mainly from the 'patterns of change' - one of the 'optional extras', but a good place to look for advice and direction when the question didn't ask for any. They lead to more questions than answers: can you influence the outcome? If you feel powerless, is it time for you to challenge the status quo, or is it safer to keep your head down? It could be that after thinking on this for yourself, and finding the real questions (not necessarily the ones I'm guessing at), you might come back to Yi on this one.
Anyway, please tell us more about the background and how things are working out!
chrislofting
(deceased)
- Joined
- Nov 19, 1971
- Messages
- 394
- Reaction score
- 3
Hilary,
Your wrote:
>
> Hi Alvaro,
>
> Chris is a very generous man, and of late he's been working
> so hard on explaining them that some people here have found
> they can relate to his results, which is great.
tsk tsk, comes across as a little patronising dudette ;-)
> However, I
> hope he won't mind if I say that millions of people over
> thousands of years have had extraordinary, life-changing
> relationships with Yi without any understanding of his
> ideas. In other words, they're optional, a kind of 'advanced
> module' for those with that kind of talent. [ wink ]
>
If you choose to make the distinctions of 'primary I Ching, secondary I Ching, and tertiary I Ching' you can do so but to appreciate what is going on and so utilise what is going on, based on empirical studies of brain and mind, the WHOLE of the I Ching needs to be understood and so, if you like, a 'tertiary' level of understanding is beneficial.
The use of the I Ching over the last 3000 years has been 'basic', primary/secondary level stuff that has led to a degree of delusion about its origins and use etc. Only in recent times with work on brain and mind have we been in a position to comprehend what is behind the I Ching and understanding that is of greater benefit then sticking to a 10th century BC mindset. The 10BC mindset is interesting historically, anthropologically etc but to get anything of true value in the 21AD perspective requires a little more work - as well as a 'different' perspective overall of what the I Ching offers - a lot more than 'divination'.
To focus on a 'primary I Ching' perspective reflects focusing on training children to believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus and an overall focus on the 'magical' until they have to realise that it was all a 'lie' and so a need to re-learn. Better to start-off with facts but in simple forms and let those forms grow and so retain their structure throughout the learning process. From that comes trust and the limiting of 'betrayals' ;-)
> Personally, I think that the biggest difference you might
> find here is between people like me, who think that 'random'
> divination is a means of receiving specific messages that
> are meant for you,
> and those (such as Chris) who think that
> it really is random.
this is a gross simplification of the I Ching Plus/IDM material. There is a difference between 'think that it really is random' vs the USE of random processes to access the whole that is out of our consciousness.
> That would mean that traditional
> divination only gave you a 1 in 4096 chance of getting the
> most appropriate answer ('best fit', Chris calls it). (4096
> is the number of possible answers.)
>
...but compression makes us talk of hexagrams with moving lines rather than dodecagrams. Since the focus is on hexagram meanings so a focus 'reduced' to 1 in 64 where the changed hexagram is considered the 'point'. The I Ching Plus perspective, based on understanding how your brain/mind works in processing the data, shows that we get ALL hexagrams applicable to a moment but in a sorted list from 'best fit' to 'worst fit' - this reflects the WHOLE of the I Ching responding to a moment, not just one isolated part.
> Hence Chris has developed his own method that allows you to
> control the way the answer is created, removing the 'random'
> element that can't be analysed. He calls it 'proactive',
> though, not 'controlled'. [
]
>
No, overly simplistic. I have emphasised that by asking GENERAL questions we access the manner in which the brain processes ANY question and so bring out the 'best fit' hexagram or an approximation closer to that hexagram than is possible in the tossing of coins etc. IOW we introduce consciousness into the process but in a limited manner - and we can even get others to answer the questions on our behalf if we feel we are 'too involved' with a situation to give 'clear' answers.
The reactive form of the I Ching reflects the mindset of 10 BC, a time of a lack of understanding re reality and evolution etc etc and so a surrender to the 'invisible', to the 'gods' - this reflects anthropomorphism where, finding no measure, we use ourselves and so give something 'life'. We have moved on since 10 BC. We recognise the spiritual is part of the speciesess, sourced within, and as such we can communicate with it through access to the unconscious, the structure of which we are starting to understand.
> There are other methods of generating hexagrams - by trigram
> or line by line - based on your own understanding, rather
> than trusting in whatever-is-behind-divination.
...both systems reflect the use of recursion - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/btree.png. When you learn how to drive a car some understanding of such concepts as momentum helps considerably in learning to control the vehicle ;-) Coming onto an I Ching list reflects an interest 'deeper' than that of just buying a book and using it such that knowing the depth of information available aids in both learning and in planning that learning.
> I have a
> feeling Chris's is the most complicated/sophisticated.
>
.. just requires more work in the short run, beneficial over the long run in giving a GENERAL perspective of, and in dealing with, ANY specialisation.
> Anyway...
> - it does get easier
> - it never stops being confusing. In fact, being confused to
> start with is a good sign.
>
Not necessarily! ;-) Being confused but driven to understand means a focus on making things 'clear' to oneself. It can act to motivate. To ask questions. To seek clarifications. To be proactive ;-) A fundamental process in learning a new paradigm is a period of destabilisation where we have to 're-adjust' our balance.
Chris.
Your wrote:
>
> Hi Alvaro,
>
> Chris is a very generous man, and of late he's been working
> so hard on explaining them that some people here have found
> they can relate to his results, which is great.
tsk tsk, comes across as a little patronising dudette ;-)
> However, I
> hope he won't mind if I say that millions of people over
> thousands of years have had extraordinary, life-changing
> relationships with Yi without any understanding of his
> ideas. In other words, they're optional, a kind of 'advanced
> module' for those with that kind of talent. [ wink ]
>
If you choose to make the distinctions of 'primary I Ching, secondary I Ching, and tertiary I Ching' you can do so but to appreciate what is going on and so utilise what is going on, based on empirical studies of brain and mind, the WHOLE of the I Ching needs to be understood and so, if you like, a 'tertiary' level of understanding is beneficial.
The use of the I Ching over the last 3000 years has been 'basic', primary/secondary level stuff that has led to a degree of delusion about its origins and use etc. Only in recent times with work on brain and mind have we been in a position to comprehend what is behind the I Ching and understanding that is of greater benefit then sticking to a 10th century BC mindset. The 10BC mindset is interesting historically, anthropologically etc but to get anything of true value in the 21AD perspective requires a little more work - as well as a 'different' perspective overall of what the I Ching offers - a lot more than 'divination'.
To focus on a 'primary I Ching' perspective reflects focusing on training children to believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus and an overall focus on the 'magical' until they have to realise that it was all a 'lie' and so a need to re-learn. Better to start-off with facts but in simple forms and let those forms grow and so retain their structure throughout the learning process. From that comes trust and the limiting of 'betrayals' ;-)
> Personally, I think that the biggest difference you might
> find here is between people like me, who think that 'random'
> divination is a means of receiving specific messages that
> are meant for you,
> and those (such as Chris) who think that
> it really is random.
this is a gross simplification of the I Ching Plus/IDM material. There is a difference between 'think that it really is random' vs the USE of random processes to access the whole that is out of our consciousness.
> That would mean that traditional
> divination only gave you a 1 in 4096 chance of getting the
> most appropriate answer ('best fit', Chris calls it). (4096
> is the number of possible answers.)
>
...but compression makes us talk of hexagrams with moving lines rather than dodecagrams. Since the focus is on hexagram meanings so a focus 'reduced' to 1 in 64 where the changed hexagram is considered the 'point'. The I Ching Plus perspective, based on understanding how your brain/mind works in processing the data, shows that we get ALL hexagrams applicable to a moment but in a sorted list from 'best fit' to 'worst fit' - this reflects the WHOLE of the I Ching responding to a moment, not just one isolated part.
> Hence Chris has developed his own method that allows you to
> control the way the answer is created, removing the 'random'
> element that can't be analysed. He calls it 'proactive',
> though, not 'controlled'. [
>
No, overly simplistic. I have emphasised that by asking GENERAL questions we access the manner in which the brain processes ANY question and so bring out the 'best fit' hexagram or an approximation closer to that hexagram than is possible in the tossing of coins etc. IOW we introduce consciousness into the process but in a limited manner - and we can even get others to answer the questions on our behalf if we feel we are 'too involved' with a situation to give 'clear' answers.
The reactive form of the I Ching reflects the mindset of 10 BC, a time of a lack of understanding re reality and evolution etc etc and so a surrender to the 'invisible', to the 'gods' - this reflects anthropomorphism where, finding no measure, we use ourselves and so give something 'life'. We have moved on since 10 BC. We recognise the spiritual is part of the speciesess, sourced within, and as such we can communicate with it through access to the unconscious, the structure of which we are starting to understand.
> There are other methods of generating hexagrams - by trigram
> or line by line - based on your own understanding, rather
> than trusting in whatever-is-behind-divination.
...both systems reflect the use of recursion - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/btree.png. When you learn how to drive a car some understanding of such concepts as momentum helps considerably in learning to control the vehicle ;-) Coming onto an I Ching list reflects an interest 'deeper' than that of just buying a book and using it such that knowing the depth of information available aids in both learning and in planning that learning.
> I have a
> feeling Chris's is the most complicated/sophisticated.
>
.. just requires more work in the short run, beneficial over the long run in giving a GENERAL perspective of, and in dealing with, ANY specialisation.
> Anyway...
> - it does get easier
> - it never stops being confusing. In fact, being confused to
> start with is a good sign.
>
Not necessarily! ;-) Being confused but driven to understand means a focus on making things 'clear' to oneself. It can act to motivate. To ask questions. To seek clarifications. To be proactive ;-) A fundamental process in learning a new paradigm is a period of destabilisation where we have to 're-adjust' our balance.
Chris.
hilary
Administrator
- Joined
- Apr 8, 1970
- Messages
- 19,292
- Reaction score
- 3,526
Sorry, Chris, I absolutely did not mean to sound patronising. (Re-reading, I find I don't even sound coherent. Ah well.
) I do genuinely admire the lengths you go to, and all without shouting at anyone. Not many people can do that.
I was trying to simplify, of course, and distill things down to some manageable divisions. I should probably have learned by now to leave you to explain yourself. Sorry.
I see what you mean about over-simplifying the way your method works. 'Controlled' is the wrong word - maybe 'visible' is better. The 'random' sort goes through a kind of 'black box', and people call its contents 'God' or 'Them' or 'Collective Unconscious' or 'probability' according to taste, all of which are really ways of saying 'we have no clue how this works'. The non-divinatory methods, including yours, show all their workings: no black box, everything out in the open and available to human understanding.
From my POV, though, the biggest and most fundamental difference between us is as I described. As I see it...
... belief that God speaks through Yi isn't just for children. Shen are not in the same category as tooth-fairies. Spirituality isn't a sub-category of neurology. 'Myths to live by' might still be an absolute human need.
... and so on. I could (in theory, when we get that 48-hour day and I get a few more IQ points) learn your methods, but I couldn't adopt your world-view. So perhaps it is time we got back to that nice position of agreeing to differ?
BTW, it was more like 1070BC than 10. Not that that matters.
I was trying to simplify, of course, and distill things down to some manageable divisions. I should probably have learned by now to leave you to explain yourself. Sorry.
I see what you mean about over-simplifying the way your method works. 'Controlled' is the wrong word - maybe 'visible' is better. The 'random' sort goes through a kind of 'black box', and people call its contents 'God' or 'Them' or 'Collective Unconscious' or 'probability' according to taste, all of which are really ways of saying 'we have no clue how this works'. The non-divinatory methods, including yours, show all their workings: no black box, everything out in the open and available to human understanding.
From my POV, though, the biggest and most fundamental difference between us is as I described. As I see it...
... belief that God speaks through Yi isn't just for children. Shen are not in the same category as tooth-fairies. Spirituality isn't a sub-category of neurology. 'Myths to live by' might still be an absolute human need.
... and so on. I could (in theory, when we get that 48-hour day and I get a few more IQ points) learn your methods, but I couldn't adopt your world-view. So perhaps it is time we got back to that nice position of agreeing to differ?
BTW, it was more like 1070BC than 10. Not that that matters.
chrislofting
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> BTW, it was more like 1070BC than 10. Not that that matters.
If you go back and read carefully I believe you will see I stated 10th century BC and abbreviated to 10BC as I did 21st century AD abbreviated to 21AD ;-) If you prefer I flesh it all out all of the time I will try to do so ;-)
Chris.
If you go back and read carefully I believe you will see I stated 10th century BC and abbreviated to 10BC as I did 21st century AD abbreviated to 21AD ;-) If you prefer I flesh it all out all of the time I will try to do so ;-)
Chris.
hilary
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C
candid
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chuckles
Welcome, Alvaro.
Welcome, Alvaro.
WOW!!! Last postings were rather dense...
I don't know if I got your opinions right. I guess that if one is aproaching the Yi for the first time, and he/she is not of a, let's say a mystical nature, it seems a lot easier a more "analytical" approach.
Is that what you were talking about?
Thanks for your postings!
Alvaro
I don't know if I got your opinions right. I guess that if one is aproaching the Yi for the first time, and he/she is not of a, let's say a mystical nature, it seems a lot easier a more "analytical" approach.
Is that what you were talking about?
Thanks for your postings!
Alvaro
hilary
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Hi Alvaro,
A relief to see you are still here
.
Speaking just for myself - I would say the choice is not between mysticism and Chris's approach. In fact, you can use traditional divination (the kind with coins, yarrow stalks or whatever to give you your hexagram) and believe whatever you like. There are certainly agnostics and atheists who use traditional divination - actually, I even know a self-professed atheist who's also a tarot reader.
Sometimes on this board we get onto the subject of what makes this work, and people give a variety of answers, ranging from Chris's through collective subconscious, personal subconscious influencing the outcome (maybe through telekinesis?), God, unnamed spirits, 'the sage', the universe as synchronistic mechanism (with no personality or intention of its own) - and so on. (Apologies to all I have missed out!)
I think there comes a point where many of us (though not including Chris) are really saying:
'I don't understand how it works, but this is the name I'm putting on what I don't understand, at least for now.'
How is the situation at work, anyway?
A relief to see you are still here
Speaking just for myself - I would say the choice is not between mysticism and Chris's approach. In fact, you can use traditional divination (the kind with coins, yarrow stalks or whatever to give you your hexagram) and believe whatever you like. There are certainly agnostics and atheists who use traditional divination - actually, I even know a self-professed atheist who's also a tarot reader.
Sometimes on this board we get onto the subject of what makes this work, and people give a variety of answers, ranging from Chris's through collective subconscious, personal subconscious influencing the outcome (maybe through telekinesis?), God, unnamed spirits, 'the sage', the universe as synchronistic mechanism (with no personality or intention of its own) - and so on. (Apologies to all I have missed out!)
I think there comes a point where many of us (though not including Chris) are really saying:
'I don't understand how it works, but this is the name I'm putting on what I don't understand, at least for now.'
How is the situation at work, anyway?
For the moment the Yi is not clear to me in its divinatory powers. I like to use it as a tool for meditation. Actually, I try to use it that way since I'm new to meditation as well.
Regarding the job question, actually I'm trying to develop a new project from scratch, and I'm having trouble to coordinate and "seduce" (hey! business-wise seduction!) some big shots!
Can the Yi help me in this particular case?
Alvaro
Regarding the job question, actually I'm trying to develop a new project from scratch, and I'm having trouble to coordinate and "seduce" (hey! business-wise seduction!) some big shots!
Can the Yi help me in this particular case?
Alvaro
Hi Everyone!
My name?s Ryder, and I?m new here. This looks like a really interesting website. A lot of good information and great discussions. I?ve never met anyone else who was really interested in the I Ching. But all the recent discussion about being ?on topic? and ?off topic? made me wonder whether there are some rules about what can or should be talked about here? I feel like there might be some background assumptions I should know about before asking a lot of questions. You know, like all the odd-numbered hexagrams are open for discussion, but don?t even think about asking about the even-numbered ones. That?s silly, of course, but I?d like to know what is ?on topic? for you guys?
Ryder
My name?s Ryder, and I?m new here. This looks like a really interesting website. A lot of good information and great discussions. I?ve never met anyone else who was really interested in the I Ching. But all the recent discussion about being ?on topic? and ?off topic? made me wonder whether there are some rules about what can or should be talked about here? I feel like there might be some background assumptions I should know about before asking a lot of questions. You know, like all the odd-numbered hexagrams are open for discussion, but don?t even think about asking about the even-numbered ones. That?s silly, of course, but I?d like to know what is ?on topic? for you guys?
Ryder
Welcome, Ryder.
Speaking for myself, what I meant by "off-topic" in my recent post was/is anything that strays away from the subject line of the thread. As for subject matter that is not related in any way to the I Ching, Hilary has set aside the Open Space area for "general chat about anything, everything and nothing." However, I have yet to see anyone get drummed out of the corps for posting something in the wrong area.
Namaste,
Joan
Speaking for myself, what I meant by "off-topic" in my recent post was/is anything that strays away from the subject line of the thread. As for subject matter that is not related in any way to the I Ching, Hilary has set aside the Open Space area for "general chat about anything, everything and nothing." However, I have yet to see anyone get drummed out of the corps for posting something in the wrong area.
Namaste,
Joan
hilary
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Welcome, Ryder, to the Miraculous Self-Moderating Forum! (And it works - I don't know how.)
The original idea for the various areas is...
- Divination discussion: all the questions about divination, not exclusively I Ching
- Friends' Area: reading exchange
- Beginners' Room: non-embarrassing place to post basic questions, where you are guaranteed to get intelligible, jargon-free answers
- Open Space: all things off topic, like Joan said. But even though she didn't start her thread on changing the subject in there, she's unlikely to be drummed out.
The original idea for the various areas is...
- Divination discussion: all the questions about divination, not exclusively I Ching
- Friends' Area: reading exchange
- Beginners' Room: non-embarrassing place to post basic questions, where you are guaranteed to get intelligible, jargon-free answers
- Open Space: all things off topic, like Joan said. But even though she didn't start her thread on changing the subject in there, she's unlikely to be drummed out.
Ryder this is a good site to discuss I Ching. Ive learned so much here. How many years by myself with the I Ching and all my friends think Im nutty to use it? ??? Many!!! But come here and find people are just as crazy about it as I am, and all with fantastic lives and wisdoms, really, one can learn so much here.
I am new to I Ching. A friend of mine started telling me about it and I have just started looking up information and stuff. Maybe someone here can help me with a question I have. I'm not sure exactly how to use it yet.
I met a man a few months ago. He has been divorced for a few years and has 2 kids. We had a wonderful relationship until recently when he said that he is just too buysy to think about himself and we had to back off and just be friends for now. I know that he really is busy. He said that if we decide to start a serious relationship again later, after he is able to accomplish some things, that would be great. I know my heart tells me that we are meant to be together forever, but my head is telling me that he is not sure if that is what he really wants. Can anyone help me figure any of this out.
I met a man a few months ago. He has been divorced for a few years and has 2 kids. We had a wonderful relationship until recently when he said that he is just too buysy to think about himself and we had to back off and just be friends for now. I know that he really is busy. He said that if we decide to start a serious relationship again later, after he is able to accomplish some things, that would be great. I know my heart tells me that we are meant to be together forever, but my head is telling me that he is not sure if that is what he really wants. Can anyone help me figure any of this out.
Hi Jada
Am I right to assume this is the same situation you asked about as Jen088 on the other thread? That thread got a bit messy, didn't it, & your question seemed to get a bit lost in the confusion.
There are loads of really helpful, friendly and incredibly knowledgeable people here, who will undoubtedly be able to help you interpret the answers you get when you start consulting the Yi Ching. First you need to learn about how to choose a question and how to get an answer.
Rather than somebody explaining it all for you again here, I suggest your best move would be to click the link to practical I Ching at the top of this page and then follow the links to the bits you need. (It really is worth reading through all of it if you can - it's very clear, concise & easy to follow and won't take very long.) I also strongly recommend requesting Hilary's free e-mail course.
Just reading through those few pages will give you all the information you need to start consulting the oracle. You can either do this yourself (using the coins method is the easiest way to start) or get a free on-line reading right here (Click the 'Free online I Ching' link in the menu at the left of the page & follow the instructions.)
Once you have an answer to your carefully prepared question, come back to this thread & tell us which Hexagram(s) you got. I'm sure somebody will be able to help you interpret. (I'll contribute whatever I can but there are many more knowledgeable people around here!)
If you get stuck, come back and ask for more help.
Love,
Shelley
Am I right to assume this is the same situation you asked about as Jen088 on the other thread? That thread got a bit messy, didn't it, & your question seemed to get a bit lost in the confusion.
There are loads of really helpful, friendly and incredibly knowledgeable people here, who will undoubtedly be able to help you interpret the answers you get when you start consulting the Yi Ching. First you need to learn about how to choose a question and how to get an answer.
Rather than somebody explaining it all for you again here, I suggest your best move would be to click the link to practical I Ching at the top of this page and then follow the links to the bits you need. (It really is worth reading through all of it if you can - it's very clear, concise & easy to follow and won't take very long.) I also strongly recommend requesting Hilary's free e-mail course.
Just reading through those few pages will give you all the information you need to start consulting the oracle. You can either do this yourself (using the coins method is the easiest way to start) or get a free on-line reading right here (Click the 'Free online I Ching' link in the menu at the left of the page & follow the instructions.)
Once you have an answer to your carefully prepared question, come back to this thread & tell us which Hexagram(s) you got. I'm sure somebody will be able to help you interpret. (I'll contribute whatever I can but there are many more knowledgeable people around here!)
If you get stuck, come back and ask for more help.
Love,
Shelley
C
cheiron
Guest
Hi Jada
Your situation sounds very difficult.
People here do not, generally, like to cast the Yi Jing for others. There are reasons for that.
However you will find plenty of help if you bring your own casting, I am sure.
If you have not already asked the Yi Jing a question and received a reading you might like to use the link, below, to get a casting for your question and then to bring your ?reading? along with the question, back to this thread.
All we need is the number of the first Hexagram and the number of the second hexagram.
If you need to cast the Yi Jing and do not have a preferred method try this:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/free_I_Ching_reading/indexF.html
You can either go on to seek help from Hilary (at a small charge or bring the result back to the forum with the question.
Perhaps if this is very new you might consider getting the extra support and guidance available from Hilary? yes it costs a few dollars, but you will get a lot of guidance with everything starting with what question to ask? most worthwhile as framing the question is crucial.
Here is the link:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_reading/index.html
Warm regards
--Kevin
Your situation sounds very difficult.
People here do not, generally, like to cast the Yi Jing for others. There are reasons for that.
However you will find plenty of help if you bring your own casting, I am sure.
If you have not already asked the Yi Jing a question and received a reading you might like to use the link, below, to get a casting for your question and then to bring your ?reading? along with the question, back to this thread.
All we need is the number of the first Hexagram and the number of the second hexagram.
If you need to cast the Yi Jing and do not have a preferred method try this:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/free_I_Ching_reading/indexF.html
You can either go on to seek help from Hilary (at a small charge or bring the result back to the forum with the question.
Perhaps if this is very new you might consider getting the extra support and guidance available from Hilary? yes it costs a few dollars, but you will get a lot of guidance with everything starting with what question to ask? most worthwhile as framing the question is crucial.
Here is the link:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_reading/index.html
Warm regards
--Kevin
C
cheiron
Guest
Sorry Shelley - Crossed post
Agree with you
Warmest
--Kevin
Agree with you
Warmest
--Kevin
C
cheiron
Guest
Hi Jada
The question is really important here.
Were you holding, 'in you heart?:
What will he do?
or
What does he want?
or
What will happen?
or
Am I good enough?
Can you say a little of what the question your heart was at the time?
Thanks
--Kevin
PS ? I will not be able to get back before tomorrow ? but hopefully someone else in a different time zone might? or a night owl... will.
This is not my ?forte area? anyway?
The question is really important here.
Were you holding, 'in you heart?:
What will he do?
or
What does he want?
or
What will happen?
or
Am I good enough?
Can you say a little of what the question your heart was at the time?
Thanks
--Kevin
PS ? I will not be able to get back before tomorrow ? but hopefully someone else in a different time zone might? or a night owl... will.
This is not my ?forte area? anyway?
alright please bare with me here on trying to
explain this.
my understanind of using the 16 method is that
"greater yang" is two solid lines on top of each other.
"lesser yang" is solid line on bottom,broken line on top.
"greater yin",is two broken lines on top of each other.
"lesser yin" is broken line on bottom,solid line on top.
and from these four does a single solid line of yin and yang come into play?
the reason why i ask such simple question is that i have one book on the philosophy of the I-Ching,and it has really captured me,but throughout the whole book,it does not go into any system of divination,so i looked online and found a few different methods,and imo the best method to use is the "16 method",only problem is they talk of using it in methods of "static yang",and other slang terms,i dont really know where to put this together at,so that is why im asking for help lol!
also i do understand from these different lesser and greater yang/yin that stones of different amounts are used
7 of one color
5 of another
3 of another
1 of another
but well thats the problem,i dont know what to designate the stones as being
hope i can get some help lol thnx
explain this.
my understanind of using the 16 method is that
"greater yang" is two solid lines on top of each other.
"lesser yang" is solid line on bottom,broken line on top.
"greater yin",is two broken lines on top of each other.
"lesser yin" is broken line on bottom,solid line on top.
and from these four does a single solid line of yin and yang come into play?
the reason why i ask such simple question is that i have one book on the philosophy of the I-Ching,and it has really captured me,but throughout the whole book,it does not go into any system of divination,so i looked online and found a few different methods,and imo the best method to use is the "16 method",only problem is they talk of using it in methods of "static yang",and other slang terms,i dont really know where to put this together at,so that is why im asking for help lol!
also i do understand from these different lesser and greater yang/yin that stones of different amounts are used
7 of one color
5 of another
3 of another
1 of another
but well thats the problem,i dont know what to designate the stones as being
hope i can get some help lol thnx
bradford_h
(deceased)
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- Nov 16, 1971
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- 69
Hello Mtpathy-
Not to answer your main question, but a point of correction: Lesser Yin has the broken line on top, lesser yang a solid line. Almost half of the English language authors make this error, so please don't be upset for my correcting you here - you were misled.
My source is Zhixi's (1130-1200) Yixue Qiming, Fig 5, trans. Joseph Alder, which preserves Shao Yong's (1011-1077) work. Shao Yong developed this nomenclature.
b
Not to answer your main question, but a point of correction: Lesser Yin has the broken line on top, lesser yang a solid line. Almost half of the English language authors make this error, so please don't be upset for my correcting you here - you were misled.
My source is Zhixi's (1130-1200) Yixue Qiming, Fig 5, trans. Joseph Alder, which preserves Shao Yong's (1011-1077) work. Shao Yong developed this nomenclature.
b
bradford_h
(deceased)
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Oops, Typo-
Zhuxi or Zhu Xi (1130-1200), aka "the Great Synthesizer," used to be spelled Chu Hsi
b
Zhuxi or Zhu Xi (1130-1200), aka "the Great Synthesizer," used to be spelled Chu Hsi
b
alright well i do appreciate that!
the only book i have on I-Ching is
"the taoist I Ching" its translated by
thomas cleary.
ive been reading up a little online bout
using the coin method,and in that it dosnt seem
that you build the lines in two's instead you
build a single line at a time and designate a
individual line as being either lesser yin,or
lesser yang,if thats correct then i think i
assumed wrong in the idea that you build two
lines at a time by using lesser yin,lesser yang
as a set of two lines to build the trigrams...
tell me if im wrong here.
alright well back to the question at hand,how
would the different beads be designated in
representing the lesser/greater/yin/yang.
the only book i have on I-Ching is
"the taoist I Ching" its translated by
thomas cleary.
ive been reading up a little online bout
using the coin method,and in that it dosnt seem
that you build the lines in two's instead you
build a single line at a time and designate a
individual line as being either lesser yin,or
lesser yang,if thats correct then i think i
assumed wrong in the idea that you build two
lines at a time by using lesser yin,lesser yang
as a set of two lines to build the trigrams...
tell me if im wrong here.
alright well back to the question at hand,how
would the different beads be designated in
representing the lesser/greater/yin/yang.