birth time

[svenrus]

Da jeg var en lille dreng og var nær ved at drukne i 1958 - fra da af gik der mange år - det er en lang historie, men da jeg var 37 år gammel ville jeg vide hvad det var der egentlig var der skete... Da var det at jeg spurgte stjernerne.

Danish: In 1958 I was nearly drowning. I was seven years of age then. Long story... But when 37 years of age I went on to the astrology to find out what the meaning could have been, and I went on to the astrology to find an answer. Studying, figuriyng, OMG Whish You understand...

Never mind. I went into astrology. Please just trust in me. I've study that more of my time than The I

 

[svenrus]

Oh Yea my danish is better than my english. Who am I to learn goddessless/goddessliss (?) anything about astrology ???

 

[svenrus]

 

[Liselle]

Svenrus, are you drunk? If so please stay off forums.

 

[Liselle]

Location changes

Liss, I tried to see how much difference it makes to an ascendant if the place of birth varies by a few miles.

From Google Maps, I got coordinates for both "Luton, UK" and "London Luton Airport, UK". Those are 2.1 miles apart in driving distance.

Then I put both sets of coordinates into my astrology program, keeping everything else the same. Here is the data I used:

"Luton, UK"
51° 52' 43" N
0° 25' 13" W

"London Luton Airport, Luton, UK" (for sake of argument - we don't even know for sure that's the right airport)
51° 52' 35" N
0° 22' 19" W

The settings I kept the same:
Month: December
Day: 14
Year: 1960
Time: Noon (noon charts are the default when the time is unknown)
Daylight: No
Time Zone: GMT

Here are what the ascendants came out to be:

"Luton, UK" - 12 Pisces 35' 16"
"London Luton Airport, UK" - 12 Pis 42' 06"

So the 2 miles made slightly less than 7 minutes difference in the ascendant position (12 degrees 42 minutes vs. 12 degrees 35 minutes).

If it was me (which it's not, for one, and I'm a dabbler in astrology, for two) I personally wouldn't worry about it very much. It's about 12% of one degree. If you manage to find out without too much trouble where the hospital used to be, terrific, but if not, so be it, I think.

[Edited] Oh, and here is a webpage where someone (Ken Ward - I don't know who he is, but thank you to him for his work) has discussed the effects of various types of birth data errors on chart calculation:

http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/astrology/Calculations/effectsOfErrors.htm

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks Lisa - the I'm not fussed too much about the degrees, I'm just curious generally about the blueprint of my life.
For many years I've been using the time 2.57am which was worked out with a friend of mine and myself through dowsing and intuition but whilst some things appear totally accurate others are just not.
- Liss

 

[Liselle]

Interesting. A 2:57 a.m. birth time would give you a Libra ascendant, with your Moon conjunct from the 12th house side. I wonder how 23 unchanging would fit into that? The only way I can see it might be if you think "separating" for 23, as in "separating into two pieces," and Libra is a dual sign. Buuut that seems like quite a stretch.

Have you ever asked Yi how accurate the 2:57 a.m. time is? And/or would you want to ask how accurate Trojina's suggestion is of Pluto conjunct your ascendant?

Your Moon is in an entirely different sign depending on the time, either Libra or Scorpio. That makes a huge difference.

Another possibility for the 23 unchanging reading might be that it was directly telling you the time - it could have meant 2300 hours, or 11:00 p.m. That would give you a Virgo ascendant, with Pluto and your North Node conjunct from the 12th house side, which agrees with Trojina's idea. Something to note about that is Mercury in Sagittarius then conjuncts your 4th house cusp, which might explain all the moving you've done, both lately, and also that you moved all the way to Australia from England to start with. Your Sun is also in Sag, so travel might be unsurprising regardless of house placement, but Mercury directly on the 4th house cusp might indicate more than usual changes in residence.

Another question for Yi could be something like, "How likely 23uc meant a birthtime of 2300 hours - 11:00 p.m.?"

 

[goddessliss]

Hi Lisa - good question re the 2300 hours. First I've asked

How accurate is the time of birth I'm using re my natal chart

Hex 41.1.2.4>35

Hex 41 Sun and Hex 35 progressive - both words used in astrology.

How accurate is 2300 hours being the time of my birth

Hex 17 unchanging

Following the correct way.

- Liss

 

[Liselle]

Could be.

As I read through the 41>35 lines, a theme seemed to be to make things simpler, to move along swiftly. 35 can mean easy advancement. My thought was maybe it was telling you to get on to the next question already, which was the 2300 hours question. I should mention, though, that I almost edited my previous post to suggest that you ask the 2300 hours question first, not because I had any reason to think it was right, but just for efficiency because it was the most specific. So I was sort of primed to see 41>35 as, "Ask that other question!"

17 unchanging - maybe? Hilary's questions are, "How are things flowing, and how can you move with them?" and "Where are you being nudged and guided?" The Oracle says,

"Following.
From the source, creating success, constancy bears fruit.
No mistake."

I think to see this as an endorsement of 11:00 p.m. we'd have to accept that it's just as much a commentary on the process of getting there. For example, I tried to make it all very complicated, with map coordinates etc., and it might be saying that wasn't necessary; the answer was much simpler and we already had it.

But we would have to accept that reasoning. I mean, Yi does have more direct ways of saying, "You got it," such as 56.5 (there may be others):

"Shooting a pheasant,
Gets it with one arrow.
So in the end, praise and a mandate."

What do you think?

 

[goddessliss]

I agree Lisa, with the commentary of being nudged and guided - perhaps we haven't nailed it yet so that's why we didn't get your suggested 56.5 or similar.

Hmmm have to think of another way to word the question perhaps.

 

[Liselle]

I'm trying to decide how confident I'd be in this if it was my own chart...I mean, is there a way 17uc, or both those readings together, could mean that 11 p.m. is not quite right? Not sure there is...

I do realize I'm always wondering why I didn't get the most direct answer possible, and that's probably not productive or reasonable. (I think I have to learn to appreciate nuance...)

 

[goddessliss]

I asked some questions and I narrowed it down to 2337 hours and asked Yi directly if this was the time -

Hex 2 unchanging - 'And when you can spread your senses out to roam southwest and northeast without limit, you will be peacefully at home in the whole earth'.

Can you create a natal chart with that time and see if any significant events can be seen?

 

[Liselle]

Some differences that stick out are:

(1) 11:00 - Pluto/NNd in 12th house conjunct ascendant; 11:37 - in 12th not conjunct ascendant

(1) 11:00 - Moon/Neptune conjunction in 3rd house, Moon conjunct 3rd cusp; 11:37 - Moo/Nep in 2nd

(2) 11:00 - Mercury in 4th house conjunct nadir; 11:37 - Mer. in 3rd house and Sun in 4th conjunct nadir

(3) 11:00 - Saturn in 5th house (barely - conjunct 5th cusp); 11:37 - Saturn in 4th house

(4) 11:00 - Uranus in 12th house; 11:37 - Uranus in 11th house (barely - conjunct 12th cusp)

(5) 11:00 - grand square involving Plu/NNd/Asc, Nadir/Mer, SNd/Desc, and Midheaven

(6) I'd guess (guess) that the 11:00 chart is more intense. There is the grand square, and more angle and cusp conjunctions:

11:00
Pluto/NNd in 12th house conjunct ascendant
Moon in 3rd house closely conjunct 3rd cusp (Neptune is also involved, but a bit more widely)
Mercury in 4th house closely conjunct nadir
Saturn in 5th house closely conjunct 5th cusp
SNd conjunct descendant
Mars in 10th house conjunct 11th cusp

11:37
Neptune and Moon in 2nd house conjunct 3rd cusp (in this case it's Neptune that's closer to the cusp).
Sun in 4th conjunct nadir, a bit more widely than the Mercury conjunction in the 11:00 chart
Uranus in 11th house closely conjunct 12th cusp

Not sure what to make of the 2 unchanging, especially since it was part of a conversation of several readings. (Well hmm...a "string" of several readings...17uc...hm. I think I'm getting more confused rather than less.)

In the posts below are the best screen clips I could get of the two charts. The program I'm using (Astrolog) has very nice graphics when you're actually using the software, but the graphics degrade badly in screen clips or saved output.

 

[Liselle]

 

[Liselle]

 

[Trojina]

Pluto conjunct Asc...that's what I suggested in post 9....

Wow if you have come to Pluto conjunct Asc by another method that is amazing

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks very much Lisa - conjunct and those terms mean nothing to me really but I read the basics such as the planets in the different houses and the 11.37pm seems to ring very true for me.

Thanks Trojina and Lisa for helping me out. - Liss

 

[chingching]

The method of rectification in this article has worked really well for the chart rectification's I have done for clients.

http://www.forrestastrology.com/res...astrology/39-the-craft-of-chart-rectification

xx

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks chingching - could it be as simple as what time,date and where one had their children? Would that be enough or do the events need to be more significant?

Or could even the first couple of years where I moved twice - once at 6 months and once between the ages of 2 and 3 but at the time of the second move I was left to fend for myself?

- Liss

 

[Liselle]

Yes, thank you Ching Ching! That's an interesting article. Sounds similar to what Svenrus talked about. It also sounds complicated, especially since Liss has no hints at all about her birth time (like, "in the middle of the night" or whatever).

Maybe it could be a long-term project for Liss. I'm unsure whether we've gotten any "eurekas" from Yi in this thread - maybe those methods could corroborate something, or disprove it.

Liss, the article said that you need a list of events from throughout your whole life - around ten, I believe it said - but they shouldn't be any closer together than two years, and even farther apart if possible. (The article explains why, but I don't understand that part.)

How to select among events - other than saying they can't be close together, the article doesn't really suggest how to select one rather than another. The author does say, "The more accurate the date of the event, the better" and also "I find it helpful not to be too directive. Seeing how the client defines 'major events' is often illuminating."

So maybe you could just start writing a list of everything, with dates, and then winnow it down according to accuracy and what you feel is most significant?

 

[svenrus]

... sorry to interferr, but have You tried the old fashioned (f.... expensive) way to phone and ask the manager of the hospital for advise ? (http://www.ldh.nhs.uk/contact-us/)

Sorry, promised to stay away but have experience that even in this www time sometimes "the old way" still function....

 

[Liselle]

Svenrus, if you're having trouble seeing, would it be possible for you to enlarge or zoom in your screen, rather than tagging your posts with a large font size? My browser (Firefox) has a way to do that, and I'm sure most other browsers do as well.

Also, putting large font size tags (such as [SIZE = 5][/ SIZE]) around your typing doesn't actually enlarge it while you're trying to type it. You don't see the effects until it's posted. But using your browser's zoom function should enlarge everything on the screen, including what you're typing in the text box. That might actually be more useful to you.

 

[Trojina]

Thanks very much Lisa - conjunct and those terms mean nothing to me really but I read the basics such as the planets in the different houses and the 11.37pm seems to ring very true for me.

Thanks Trojina and Lisa for helping me out. - Liss

Conjuct simply means joined, within 8 degrees or so. So my point was, via 23uc, if Pluto was at the same point as the Ascendant then wham you know exactly where your ascendant is by where pluto is.

The Ascendant is at the start of the first house..Pluto might be in the first or the twelfth house.

I think it's pretty spectacular I hypothesised this and then Lisa, or someone, tried to fathom it with another method and also found Pluto on the ascendant. The chances of those two methods tallying is pretty remote....Mine was an intuitive synchronistic long shot, hers was a formula of some kind. If both say Pluto is rising then that has to mean something

There are many different house systems so astrologers don't always agree which house planets are in though. Also it's important to know the planets aspects to each other...you can see the aspects without knowing the houses. So if you want to figure it it's much easier than you think



Re contacting the hospital, I can ring them for you though I really doubt they would have any time for my query or have the birth time.

Why not email ?

 

[Trojina]

Svenrus, if you're having trouble seeing, would it be possible for you to enlarge or zoom in your screen, rather than tagging your posts with a large font size? My browser (Firefox) has a way to do that, and I'm sure most other browsers do as well.

Also, putting large font size tags (such as [SIZE = 5][/ SIZE]) around your typing doesn't actually enlarge it while you're trying to type it. You don't see the effects until it's posted. But using your browser's zoom function should enlarge everything on the screen, including what you're typing in the text box. That might actually be more useful to you.

Yes, also very large fonts look like you are shouting

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks Trojina - I'm unsure about the Pluto - how can I see where it is if I don't have a natal chart or do you mean using the times we've come up with?

I emailed them before I posted this thread - no response

 

[Liselle]

I think it's pretty spectacular I hypothesised this and then Lisa, or someone, tried to fathom it with another method and also found Pluto on the ascendant. The chances of those two methods tallying is pretty remote....Mine was an intuitive synchronistic long shot, hers was a formula of some kind. If both say Pluto is rising then that has to mean something

Well, it wasn't some kind of method or formula - I don't have any of those - I've never rectified a chart. That would be more like what Ching Ching linked to.

No, it was just two different possibilities for 23uc. Yours was to interpret 23 as stripping away, which certainly fits with Pluto. Another possibility is that it is indicating the time directly - 2300 hours, or 11:00 p.m.

But both ways of seeing 23 do end up in the same place, with Pluto near the Asc. As you say, maybe that should tell us something.

The readings Liss did after the 2300 hours idea were these:

Hi Lisa - good question re the 2300 hours. First I've asked

How accurate is the time of birth I'm using re my natal chart

Hex 41.1.2.4>35

Hex 41 Sun and Hex 35 progressive - both words used in astrology.

How accurate is 2300 hours being the time of my birth

Hex 17 unchanging

Following the correct way.

- Liss

As I went on to comment in a subsequent post, I think a case could be made that those two readings corroborate the 2300 hours chart. But they also don't jump up and say "Eureka!" I don't think, and I think we should be careful not to latch onto something just because we think it's a nifty solution. It is a nifty solution, but is that actually what Yi is saying, or not?

Trojina, would you mind looking over these readings and see what you think of them? Then later Liss played with things some more and came up with a time of 11:37 p.m. based on a series of readings which ended in 2 unchanging.

Maybe Liss could share that series as well? I have no idea what 2 unchanging might mean in isolation, when we know it was the last of a few readings.

Trojina, you are a very clearheaded interpreter, and you are more removed from this than Liss and I are, therefore objective - I'd love to know what you think .

 

[Trojina]

Thanks Trojina - I'm unsure about the Pluto - how can I see where it is if I don't have a natal chart or do you mean using the times we've come up with?

You don't need a natal chart to know where Pluto is at any time. You don't need a natal chart to know what degree of what sign any planet is in ..or the sun.

When you were born Pluto was 8 degrees Virgo. That is where Pluto was in the skies at that time. You natal chart is only the placements of where the planets were at the moment of birth. Pluto moves slow...all through December 1960 it was 8 degrees Virgo. If my intuition that 23uc signified Pluto then wherever Pluto appeared would be your ascendant. Lisa came at it from another angle.

To find where planets were at any time you consult an ephemeris or one online. I'm puzzled when you say

Thanks Lisa - the I'm not fussed too much about the degrees, I'm just curious generally about the blueprint of my life.
For many years I've been using the time 2.57am which was worked out with a friend of mine and myself through dowsing and intuition but whilst some things appear totally accurate others are just not.
- Liss

Liss without knowing degrees there is no birth chart. I am wondering if we are all on the same page. You can only find the houses when you know the degree of the sign each house starts with. Then you said
you don't where to find Pluto. Pluto is in the heavens,,,,so you look to see where it was at your time of birth . Svrenus printed an ephemeris,,,


I am puzzled

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, would you mind looking over these readings and see what you think of them? Then later Liss played with things some more and came up with a time of 11:37 p.m. based on a series of readings which ended in 2 unchanging.


Trojina, you are a very clearheaded interpreter, and you are more removed from this than Liss and I are, therefore objective - I'd love to know what you think

Good God No....I have been up most of the night in agony with gallstones, thought the pain had gone and have been writhing around on the bed for the last 5 hours today. it's just easing off and I have some medicine..I'm totally shattered. Apart from that I personally just wouldn't/couldn't use I Ching to find the birth time. It isn't something I'd ever do...not my style or my inclination to do detective work via readings. If others find they can good luck to them...To me it will only ever be guess work and I don't use Yi to ascertain facts because if you want facts there are better methods. I mean how will you ever know the truth via casts...all guesswork. How would you ever know you had it right. If several methods gave Pluto rising that would be amazing is all I said.

I only linked the 23 with Pluto via a flash of synchronicity. That is all I have to offer. If you want me to ring hospital Liss send me your details. I don't think they will help. They are completely over stretched, I don't think they will even have the records but I can call them tomorrow just to see.

OTOH I might be in hospital myself tomorrow....but PM me your name and DOB and if I am in one piece tomorrow I'll ring them.

 

[Liselle]

Liss:

Thanks Trojina - I'm unsure about the Pluto - how can I see where it is if I don't have a natal chart or do you mean using the times we've come up with?
You don't need a natal chart to know where Pluto is at any time. You don't need a natal chart to know what degree of what sign any planet is in ..or the sun.

When you were born Pluto was 8 degrees Virgo. That is where Pluto was in the skies at that time. You natal chart is only the placements of where the planets were at the moment of birth. Pluto moves slow...all through December 1960 it was 8 degrees Virgo. If my intuition that 23uc signified Pluto then wherever Pluto appeared would be your ascendant. Lisa came at it from another angle.

To find where planets were at any time you consult an ephemeris or one online. I'm puzzled when you say

Thanks Lisa - the I'm not fussed too much about the degrees, I'm just curious generally about the blueprint of my life.
For many years I've been using the time 2.57am which was worked out with a friend of mine and myself through dowsing and intuition but whilst some things appear totally accurate others are just not.
- Liss

Liss without knowing degrees there is no birth chart. I am wondering if we are all on the same page. You can only find the houses when you know the degree of the sign each house starts with. Then you said
you don't where to find Pluto. Pluto is in the heavens,,,,so you look to see where it was at your time of birth . Svrenus printed an ephemeris,,,


I am puzzled

So am I. I think it's pretty clear that Liss means where Pluto is in her chart.

When she said she wasn't "fussed too much about the degrees," she was referring to the discussion about pinning down the location of her birth. It turns out that the latitude and longitude don't make much difference when the location is known within a few miles. So we're thinking it's not very important to figure out exactly where the hospital used to be, before it was replaced by an airport (as Liss was told).

 

[svenrus]

Svenrus, if you're having trouble seeing, would it be possible for you to enlarge or zoom in your screen, rather than tagging your posts with a large font size? My browser (Firefox) has a way to do that, and I'm sure most other browsers do as well.

Also, putting large font size tags (such as [SIZE = 5][/ SIZE]) around your typing doesn't actually enlarge it while you're trying to type it. You don't see the effects until it's posted. But using your browser's zoom function should enlarge everything on the screen, including what you're typing in the text box. That might actually be more useful to you.

I'll immediately edit this where I am able to....