could 56 be Transcedence?

[rodaki]

this comes from a Yi reading . .

See, I had this idea to ask "what are we meant to be" (me and that someone I have been 17 Following)
the answer was 34. 1,2,6 to 56

I did a lot of reading on that, on the specific lines and their transitional hexagrams (34.1, 32.2, 62.6) and I got the idea that the reading talks of something that goes beyond the realm of the material existence of one life and transcends the limits of time and place (there is a lot of background in this saga, with a lot of 11 coming up lately and a 51.2 to 54 in a similar question a long time ago)

so, my wildly romantic side says WOW
my cynical one goes : you're reading your over the top dreams here, this is no way to go

Imbalancing or
I'm balancing??

(uhm, this must be my 1.4 dancing above the abyss )

would love to hear your ideas on the Wanderer as the Transcending . .
:bows:


rodaki

 

[dobro p]

this comes from a Yi reading . .

See, I had this idea to ask "what are we meant to be" (me and that someone I have been 17 Following)
the answer was 34. 1,2,6 to 56...

so, my wildly romantic side says WOW
:bows:

Well, I'm nowhere near as wildly romantic about it as you are, and yet my response is also WOW! :bows:

You're meant to be Great Power. What's not to be astonished about? And when I'm astonished, I go 'wow'.

But's it's not like you have a huge choice, right?

 

[rodaki]

well, that's the feeling I get (about this being of the type of the Unavoidable events), but after a good night's sleep I'm beginning to think that the transcendence idea might actually be over the top . .

Did anyone out there had any experience with 56 as such or better put this in the Oh No folder?

rodaki

 

[meng]

I love it.

Rodaki, you're talking about different layers of the same onion. One deals with the classical world view, the other deals with something which is termed in many ways, such as: mythology, psychology, spiritualism, etc. One doesn't have to exclude the other.

I like this Confucius quote, from Wilhelm's 1.5:

Things that have affinity in their inmost natures seek one another. Water flows to what is wet, fire turns to what is dry. Clouds (the breath of heaven) follow the dragon, wind (the breath of earth) follows the tiger.....What is born of heaven feels related to what is above. What is born of earth feels related to what is below. Each follows its kind.

Perhaps you are born of heaven and earth.

 

[rodaki]

One doesn't have to exclude the other.

yes, it's true, the meanings come to blend in their own pattern, each one adds another aspect, another point of view, the obvious lines of the answer, their fan yao's, their transitional hexagrams, their place in trigrams and their pattern within the hex.
. . a true treasure chest!
a story told in a roll of silk that slowly unfolds . . . . . . . . .

my (previous) object of study, the duck/rabbit, both duck and rabbit in the single set of strokes:

the story of 'ambiguous' images, of 'visual illusions' or else called 'multistable images' because they stand on multiple grounds, provoke different visual experiences and readings of the very same visual form

not much different from ideograms huh?

rodaki

 

[meng]

Oh, and definitely very 56 any time you venture from what you perceive as being certain.

 

[meng]

Love the rabduck, or is it a duckit? Good analogy.

 

[rodaki]

now that's a thing I have loved and abhorred at various points of unfolding (the venturing out I mean)
. . . but then again, another one of those Inescapable ones isn't it? Asking yourself 'what else can I be?' which part of what I am awaits to be unraveled . .

can't help but smile like a fool

rodaki

 

[rodaki]

i guess it's a duck/rabbit because none of its aspects can be reduced to match or to blend . .it can't be a mixture, just a coming together of completely irreducible but compatible elements, differences accepted, respected and resolutely intertwined

 

[meng]

Mm, well, they do both belong within the same image, or I should say the same borders and outline. They do have that in common.

But what you said about possibly being over the top, yes, it's possible to miss the practical point of the reading, to overshoot with either too much analysis or digging too deep right past the treasure chest. But it's just as possible to continue mining only what is on the surface, and miss the gold vein entirely. Again from Wilhelm, 48:

We must go down to the very foundations of life. For any merely superficial ordering of life that leaves its deepest needs unsatisfied is as ineffectual as if no attempt at order had ever been made.

 

[rodaki]

ooo.k . . .

that's very very interesting . .
that would make it the Great Force that takes us out of our comfort zone you mentioned earlier . . or something I'm not seeing yet . .

funny, twice in asking directions on interpretation, the Yi answered 33, retreat, take a step back, see the bigger picture . .
have more studying to do!
any thoughts/suggestions/directions would be received as gifts :bows:

 

[meng]

Well, we both know what 33 is, don't we? It's just a matter of retreating from what, and what not to retreat from. I've personally found that about 90% of the time, it is either my own youthful impulsive drive or my old inflexible man, that needs to be withdrawn from.

The "golden mean" isn't just a mish-mosh average, like a scoop of mashed potatoes , it is a constant balancing act, a course of ten thousand corrections. In navigation (56), one always strives for many small course corrections, over a few inefficient and dangerous large corrections.

 

[rodaki]

ay ay captain, right on to it!

 

[maremaria]

yes, it's true, the meanings come to blend in their own pattern, each one adds another aspect, another point of view, the obvious lines of the answer, their fan yao's, their transitional hexagrams, their place in trigrams and their pattern within the hex.
. . a true treasure chest!
a story told in a roll of silk that slowly unfolds . . . . . . . . .

my (previous) object of study, the duck/rabbit, both duck and rabbit in the single set of strokes:

the story of 'ambiguous' images, of 'visual illusions' or else called 'multistable images' because they stand on multiple grounds, provoke different visual experiences and readings of the very same visual form

not much different from ideograms huh?

rodaki

Couldn't decide which of your words I liked to quote I choose that .

Good thoughts Dora. Enjoyed reading them

Maria

 

[rodaki]

να 'σαι καλα Μαρακι, thnx!

 

[meng]

ay ay captain, right on to it!

Carry on, sailor.

 

[rodaki]

more thoughts on 56 . .

I think that the meaning of the Traveler is about restless energy -that seems to be its natural state that has to be regularly checked. Like fire, it has the tendency to extent itself beyond borders but if left to its own devices will most probably scorch its own positive potential

About over-the-top: in the hexagram what is on top is fire (the drive/passion that brings it to life). The fire on top of mountain reminds me of volcanoes and the lines do talk of going beyond what's normal -too much restlessness- ending up in burning down one's surroundings

The time of retreat (navigation): sailing is governed by a law of equilibrium between direction and compromise; thus one travels according to a strategy that respects the forces around, the wind, the waves, the currents -which normally exhibit some regularity. Every so often though, a wave bigger than the rest will come across and the way to go over it follows a simple rule: when the wave approaches one from the side, you change course to meet it head-on. The boat climbs the wave but as soon as it reaches the wave's ridge one has to change direction again so the boat will slide on the wave's valley on its side and won't crush on its bow . . the manoeuvre is very much about timing and done properly conveys a sense of harmony and rhythm, going with the flow- a nice example of creative retreat for me . . .

so, even if hx 56 can, in some cases, denote a force that goes beyond the borders of life as we know it, meeting up with it has to be about an equilibrium between riding it and gently retreating from it . .

:bows:

rodaki

 

[meng]

Wow

:bows:

 

[maremaria]

The time of retreat (navigation): sailing is governed by a law of equilibrium between direction and compromise; thus one travels according to a strategy that respects the forces around, the wind, the waves, the currents -which normally exhibit some regularity. Every so often though, a wave bigger than the rest will come across and the way to go over it follows a simple rule: when the wave approaches one from the side, you change course to meet it head-on. The boat climbs the wave but as soon as it reaches the wave's ridge one has to change direction again so the boat will slide on the wave's valley on its side and won't crush on its bow . . the manoeuvre is very much about timing and done properly conveys a sense of harmony and rhythm, going with the flow- a nice example of creative retreat for me . . .

so, even if hx 56 can, in some cases, denote a force that goes beyond the borders of life as we know it, meeting up with it has to be about an equilibrium between riding it and gently retreating from it . .

:bows:

rodaki

Like it a lot !!! I have found sailing usefull to understand some Yi lines.

My thoughs about sailing.... (from my blog )

“Sailing is the art of controlling a sailing vessel. By adjusting the rigging, rudder and dagger or center board, a sailor manages the force of the wind on the sails in order to change the direction and speed of a boat. Mastery of the skill requires experience in varying wind and sea conditions, as well as knowledge concerning sails boats “ (1)

Have you ever go for sailing. Beautiful experience. OK most of the times. Took some lessons many years ago. The captains teach us, the sailors-to-be about the sails boat, charts, knots, and winds. Early fall and we had the chance to sail in different weather conditions. No winds, mild winds, perfect winds, strong winds. Each time we had to adapt to the wind, follow his orders, and use its power to propel. Some times we could stay relaxed in the deck and enjoy our cruise. Some others we had to be alerted, to work continuously.

At the beginning or the journey we had to plan the trip. choose our destination and design the route on the chart to reach it. Usually our root was a straight line but wind and sea conditions made us to change our plans. “tack, tack” the captain ordered. And the straight line became a zig zigging . Maybe there is not a “perfect” wind. But I recall one time, which seemed like perfect. The boat was sailing smoothly in the sea. I could hear the wind making music with sails. And the boat along with the sea waves participate too.

Many years passed since then but I often go back to those moments. When there is a mess in my mind , I close my eyes and escape there. Me , the sailing boat, the sea and the invisible wind. It is there , its breezing. I can feel it my face, I can see it in seas waves, I can hear it talking with the sails. The vessel moves swimmingly and the wind blows away all the problems of my mind. And then the vessel and I become one thing and surrender to the winds gentle power.

Sailing is the art of controlling a sailing vessel. A successful sailor has to know how to sail upwind, downwind across the wind and get out of “irons” .

Maria

 

[maremaria]

hi em ching,

one comment that has really helped me with 33 came from Maremaria in the memorizing thread 33 where she mentioned about a sketching/painting practice where one takes a step back to see the dynamics of forms and patterns from afar . .
Ever since I'm seeing retreat as exactly this move: take a step back, take the whole thing in, get away from the trivial details, and it could stand for the both of you . .

cheers!
rodaki

Btw, you mentioned that in the other thread and here too. Makes me think how correct was I because it can be also 20.

Do you find it more 33 or 20 or both ?

Maria

 

[maremaria]

Every so often though, a wave bigger than the rest will come across and the way to go over it follows a simple rule: when the wave approaches one from the side, you change course to meet it head-on. The boat climbs the wave but as soon as it reaches the wave's ridge one has to change direction again so the boat will slide on the wave's valley on its side and won't crush on its bow . . the manoeuvre is very much about timing and done properly conveys a sense of harmony and rhythm, going with the flow- a nice example of creative retreat for me . . .

rodaki

Read it again and I have a question. In that case do you go to meet the wave ? I'm asking that because if you meet it front to front and ride it, the boat has lost the control because the wave has the power and not the steering wheel. In such a case, being on the wave's ridge, have we lost the right time to retreat ?

if you mean something else, can you explain what do you mean ?

Thanks ,
Maria

 

[rodaki]

hey Meng

hi Maria,

not really any proper schooling in sailing here but lots and lots of experience . . yes sailing is amazing, tried to make it my life metaphor, thinking about events of my life and their correspondences to sailing and what would be the best way to handle them . .

about the wave, yes, you actually change course to meet it -not a good idea to let it hit you sideways, can do some real damage- and definitely not a good idea to try to change direction while you're 'climbing' it . . you just go towards it and feel it rolling under the boat, at this point you just go with it but at the tip of it you can easily change direction, don't really know the hydraulics of the move but I'm guessing its highest point is the point of least resistance since it is the apex, where exhaustion begins or perhaps cause it's the point where you have least contact with the wave's main body mass . . . Haven't done any surfing but I remember watching documentaries about surfing, where also the timing of getting up on the board is very much about this point of least resistance, when the wave lets you ride it . .

33 and 20 . . . not really sure about this one but 20 feels more static than 33 . . in 20.4 there is sth about advance or retreat . . talking in wave terms, if 20 is looking for the signs, it would be looking for the wave to show you where its tension is released and you can go on with the manoeuvre safely . .

oh oh and I found this very interesting thread about 56 here (well there are many things in this thread but I focused most on what Matt said about this specific hex.)
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=172

wonder what others think about this strange 56 character??

rodaki

 

[maremaria]

Thanks Dora . Too limited time today to say more. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[rodaki]

Latest update:

Even though I think that 56 can actually refer to transcendence, I have come to realize that the Yi is rather reluctant to talk in those terms (to me that is).
There was already some talk in this thread about being over the top and I think that the 6th line of this reading (seen both in the traditional 34.6 and in the 62.6 in steps of change) refers precisely to a tendency to reach beyond one's (mine) reach and capacity. So in fact, 34 to 56 seems to either refer exclusively to the querent's attitude, or if we suppose that it still replies to the question asked, then it does so adding in the last line a warning about one's attitude.
Up to now I was most certain that the Yi will primarily answer the question, with a few exceptions when it obviously commented on my behaviour, but recently this perception has been shaken considerably. I am not sure at all when Yi answers my question or when it warns me about asking the question in the first place, so for now I am trying to take both cases as standing, keeping faith that time will tell

:bows:
rodaki

 

[miakoda]

According to Karcher, the transitional hexagram (or "step figures," which he calls them) for your question--

What are we meant to be?

--is:

32.1

Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently.
Nothing that would further.

Whatever endures can be created only gradually by long-continued work and careful reflection. In the same sense Lao-tse says: "If we wish to compress something, we must first let it fully expand." He who demands too much at once is acting precipitately, and because he attempts too much, he ends by succeeding in nothing. (Memorizing Thread, Wilhelm, I assume)


55.2

‘Feng is screened off.
With the sun at its highest, seeing the Dipper.
Going on gains doubts and anxieties.
With truth and confidence like shooting an arrow/ expressed [like Fa aka Wu],
Good fortune.’ (Wikiwing, Hilary)

You are screened off and protected. This lets you see hidden things. If you act on this directly, you will be greeted with doubts and hostility. Carry on. Your connection to the spirit world will carry you through. The way is open. (Karcher)


14.6

He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

In the fullness of possession and at the height of power,
one remains modest and gives honor to the sage who stands outside the affairs of the world.By this means one puts oneself under the beneficent influence from heaven, and all goes well. Confucius says about this line:

To bless means to help. Heaven helps the man who is devoted;
men help the man who is true. He who walks in truth and is
devoted in his thinking, and furthermore revers the worthy,
is blessed by heaven. He has good fortune, and there is nothing
that would not further. (Wilhelm)

Best,

Miakoda

 

[bradford]

would love to hear your ideas on the Wanderer as the Transcending . .
rodaki

I would have to disagree with that. Gua 40 and 59 are certainly about transcendence.
But every time the Wanderer starts to regard himself as transcendent he finds himself deeper in da doodoo.
56 suggests a deeper and more intricate sense of interdependence, a moving or resilient wisdom of place. And his supply of fuel is limited, easily exhausted. He cannot transcend his reliance on his sources of safety and nourishment.

 

[lucia]

For me 56 always reminds me of the anthropological concept of liminality. Liminality being a place almost 'between worlds'. Anthropologists use it in 2 senses: in ritual it is like a transition where neither the previous nor future states apply; and in anthropological fieldwork it refers to the first (and often quite long) stage where the anthropologist is the 'outsider' trying to live on the inside of the community but still has to get to grips with the language, culture, position as anthropologist, and all the isolation and 'strangeness' that invokes.

This is actually an incredibly productive time (in fieldwork terms) if you can handle it, but despite all kinds of research training and reflexive thinking most graduate programmes don't actually deal with it and thus there's all kinds of anthropological urban mythology about anthropologists going bonkers in the process.

What often happens is the anthropologist eventually passes through this stage (and we are talking a year or more depending on location, linguistic challenge, length of fieldwork etc.,) and quite often has a hard time coming 'back' and readjusting to their former life.

If you've ever moved to a foreign country where you don't know anyone and have to learn the language on the hoof, it is incredibly tough. Language is so much more than the basics of conversation and being 'yourself' takes a long time in social and liguistic terms. You have to surrender your previously constructed sense of 'who' you are and work with something else. And yet this 'liminal' phase seems to heighten other senses, if you look you can 'see' so much more than you would in the comfort zone of familiar surroundings.

As Bradford is saying, it is a deeper and more intricate sense of interdependence - you have to play by new sets of often quite subtle 'rules' while simultaneously trying to figure out what they are. And those 'rules' are often quite layered - just as you think you've got a handle on it all you reach another layer. Meanwhile, you have to find 'place' in some sense or you will go bonkers ( or lose your faithful servant and burn your house down) ! In otherwords it is accompanied by a vulnerability or level of 'rawness' that can be at least deeply unsettling or at worst downright dangerous.

Bradford I love the way you put it: " a moving or resilient wisdom of place" - perfecto!

Look at all the spatial metaphors in the English language - misplace, replace, displace, dislocate and so on ..... A sense of place in one sense or another is clearly very important and forgoing that likewise can have all kinds of meanings.

I'm thinking of sadhus for instance who surrender a sense of place in order to challenge the ego, or the tragedy of how street kids are treated in many cultures because they threaten the social order, or homelessness ....

Wilhelm says that the Wanderer should sojourn in the proper places and associate only with good people but in the first stages of liminality how do you figure out what is 'proper' or 'good'? You have to rely on other 'senses' - Bradfords mobile or resilient sense of place.

Maybe that's when 57 kicks in.......

Lucia

 

[bamboo]

I think Nigel Richmond in The Language of the Lines puts 56 in the context of transcendance. He calls it the Search for a New Reality. what richmond seems to be saying is that trying to fix/make static reality in conventional ways is what makes the wanderer exhausted. the fixed reality no longer serves the wanderer (line 3) and reliance on fixed reality loses the life force of change (line 6)...so in this sense, it would seem to be the wanderer's task to find his meaning/purpose in transcendence. all the lines then seem to refer to the difficulty in this. except line 5 where he sees his experience as only one part of the whole and this is an idea that is nourishing. (iam paraphrasing what I remember of his lines, dont have it saved on this computer)

 

[jilt]

Actually, what is the nature of transcendence? Has it got soemthing to do with overcoming loss? In that case hex 56 and 41 are very appropriate. But when we have to deal with sublimation, transforming a kind af mindset, 50 would be more appropriate.
But growing up, getting adult is also a process of transcendence. This process is nicely described in the whole of 37, 38, 39 and 40: 37 family, 38 breaking away, 39 seeing the other side again, 40 to forgive and accept the other again. Then 41 is about transcending childhood emotions, then you really start to grow (42).

 

[rodaki]

wow, I'm thrilled to hear so many voices and opinions!
let me get my coffee and appease my hangover and I'll be right with you

rodaki