could 56 be Transcedence?

[lucia]

Bamboo
"Beside, isnt "transcendance" somewhat about coming to terms with the fact that everything is "transient" ?

yeah, but I think that in the position of the Wanderer you have to go through (horizontal?) it, not rise above it (vertical?). Like Bradford said, if you try and rise above it you are in the doo doo.....

"Once you realize that fixed reality is not your home, you can never really go "home" again...."

so true I think... and you made me want to buy that book when the funding deities remember my existence!

Meng
"I believe every life should have a story. "
yeah fundamental, telling their stories (but never without being asked) was so important to my African friends and as I earned their trust and recorded their stories they often said to me.. "you are the only person who's ever asked me this"
(well, something about cats and curiousity....)

Luis
"My idea is that the circumstances of the Wanderer are much in flux,"
that echoes both my experiences and what I've seen in readings

"........That's why I think the "reality" that Nigel Richmond talks about is closer to the immediate present of the Wanderer than to his future, and thus of a more pragmatic nature. "
I think so too, the future is way too open to think about when you are the Wanderer except in the most general terms. But I do think it has an internal aspect that accompanies the pragmatism but maybe that only manifests at the more intense end of the scale?

"Houston, TX, May/1986... "
you KNOW what I'm talking about.....

"In the case of the Wanderer, E) Running for the bathroom?
That made me s****** (no digo nada mas...) bloody hell the censorship button won't let me say the english word for dirty knowing laugh. I have never been able to say it in spanish it's always translated as risita but that ain't it - don't words say a lot about cultures.....

Bamboo
"F) Freaking out 56.6
Blimey, everyone's on form today I take it we've all recovered from NYE....

But jokes aside I think Meng points to an interesting aspect of the Wanderer by thinking about it in terms of psychedelics. Similar thought connections about the internal stuff I guess??

Bert
"In the transitional riutals to adulthood a boy gets a long cut in his scrotum. It feels like a castration (in btw., a real loss for a man). After healing the scar looks like a vagina. In the proces of healing he learns about feminity and feelings, the bleedings of menstruation etc.........in the process of loss he gains the qualities of feminity, learns his anima so to say in Jungian terms, something lost, something gained."

Nice point Bert and likewise for what you said earlier about puberty - this also points to the internal aspect of the Wanderer no ?

and I saw the Wanderer come up in readings when "mental health" was a serious issue for a young friend of mine.

Luis
"I suppose women in such environments (heck, everywhere I suppose...) have their own rite of passage in puberty, but, I wonder if within that cultural context they have similar rites to approach the male point of view as the male have to approach theirs."

I don't know about Australia too much but in many parts of W.Africa young women have long periods in the bush at puberty which include survival stuff. It's not always female circumcision horrors despite we hear in the "west". That's when they, (like so many of my male friends) receive the various scar patterns on their skin which they assure me don't hurt. But I don't want to generalise 'cos Africa is a continent not a country and there's everything from mobile phones and the internet to the griot.

What a lovely thought provoking thread....

Lucia

 

[jilt]

I think, point is, that by using the yi you put things in a wider context. Putting things in a wider context is transcendence. I cannot think of a special hexagram that is about transcendence. They all are transcedental when you "walk" through them.

 

[Sparhawk]

I did say above that I might have some different opinions after my morning coffee, didn't I?

Luis, oh my, these quotes from Richmond feel oh so true, but I'm still missing the bigger picture . . but, hold on a moment, what happens is that I get a clearer picture of what I am really looking for in the Wanderer: namely, what i can not seem to grasp is his ethics. Not the society-induced, moral values, but the inherent natural ethics of decisions made that keeps him standing when everything is burnt to pieces . . i'll explain more a bit later . .

Hmmm. I'd say that, prima facie, that is the real test of the Wanderer, not only in the eyes of others but to himself. If we understand "ethics" to be a positive treat, that is.

About transcendence, I kept on wondering about this... I'm thinking that if "transcendence," not only from a metaphysical point of view but also from a mundane one, is to be easily found in connection with the Wanderer, it would be at either end of his journey or at both. The motivation for his/her wandering could be a transcendent occassion. Reaching his/her goal is the other one. What's in between are transient steps towards that goal and whose proper navigation, and what's learned from them, will perhaps assure reaching it.

 

[rodaki]

so . . . deep breath . .

the Wanderer, transcend(a)nce and ethics . . all this takes me back to ancient greece (hey it's what i know best if I know it at all, always lots of tension with "our greek heritage")
The field is really huge, but I came up with a very nice summary of all instances of the wanderer in that context (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2006/2006-01-51.html). I realized that this is just too much to take in in a post, a thread or what have you

but it could be useful in terms of trying to make up a gallery of paradigms for the Wanderer
in the same vein I would like to add here:
Don Quixote
Medieval knights
the Wandering Jew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Jew)
the Merchant
the Nomad/Shepherd

actually the last two come together in my own roots that come on the one side from Vlachs (http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2005/05/09/reportage-01), a difficult to define but recognizable tribe of people originating in Romania but by now being integrated in countries all over the Balkans. The Vlachs are a peculiar breed because they have settled but still kept their sense of being different from everyone else and they still fight to keep their language and tradition alive

we don't have to go in depth here about everything, but if sth rings a stronger bell maybe we can gain better insight

but the figure i find most intriguing (and here comes the eyes/feet part) is
The greek tragedy hero and specifically Oedipus (here again, but a bit away from the freudian analysis):

Oedipus is followed by an oracle that was given for him before his birth: he was to be the one to kill his father and marry his mother.
So infant Oedipus is taken away from his homeland as soon as he is born, is given to a shepherd and ends up being adopted by the king of another kingdom- he starts as a cast away who is taken in in a faraway land
Growing up, his willful wandering starts. That will bring him to a crossroad where, not understanding the status of the man who blocks his road (a king and his actual father), kills him in a fit of misplaced power struggle
He moves on to a city where by means of his cuning intellect gains his way into marriage to the queen (his actual mother)
After years of having found his place, his heart is not glad due to grave misfortune. His search for remedy reveals to him the truth: he ends up blinding himself and going on to become a wandering blind man, able to understand only the ground he walks on . .
As with all greek tragedies, the story is led by ethical demands, it becomes for the spectators a journey to hubris (excessive pride) and back, a way to connect with divine awe, fear and tremble, before reaching a painful catharsis and the return into the state of divine order. Aristotle on tragedy sees the plot as one journey led thru peripeteia (adventure but also wandering and linked to beggars) to catastrophe (turn of events and destruction) and finally anagnorisis (re-cognition)
Interestingly, re-cognition comes thru blinding in Oedipus, in denying to view the landscape that unfolds beyond one's place . .
Finally, this is a journey of self-discovery, where the figure of the Wanderer does enact a sort of 'sacrificial lamb', and thus carries forth a highly honored ethical place in the make up of an equilibrium . .

and to finish, here is an anecdote:
At some point, 8 years ago, I took a part-time job selling books door to door. i would be appointed an area of office buildings and would go in, leave 3 books in every office and come back 15 minutes later to see if anyone wanted to buy or order a book. As with any selling post, this one called for a state of great alertness -I only had a couple of secs to evaluate the person in front of me and get their attention (and money! ), and i actually met some nice people this way. Of course it was not my place to chitchat, everything had to be swift and effective. During those 15 minutes of waiting, i would often go in the rooftop of the buildings and smoke a cigarette (fire on mountain??). Anyways, that lasted 2 months: I realized at some point that even though i was good at it and it did give me a thrill, the business itself brought forth an arrogance and a manipulative streak in me i didn't like (plus I had to carry everyday at least 12 to 15 bestsellers !!)
I left the job but it did give me imagery for my first (and only!!) short story . .

(http://flickr.com/photos/mosesxan/2624105111/in/set-72157605577352547/)

i hope i haven't tired your eyes with this huge thing!!
:bows:

P.S: Rosada, even though posting this thread i decided to let go of my desire to really understand the reading, and go for the philosophical implications, your interpretation is the most lucid and complete i could ever dream of!:bows:

rodaki

 

[jilt]

so, the pelgrim?

 

[lucia]

Every time I disappear to do something practical I come back and find loads more to think about.....

A quick one while I think

Bert...

Mary Douglas - nice one - what synchronicity! I've had her in mind for the last few days because of this thread............

she's the one who said: "Dirt is matter out of place"

With a mama who was a bit of an obsessive cleaner that changed my view of housework!!

momentito....

Lucia

 

[lucia]

Rodaki more synchronicity.....

“but it could be useful in terms of trying to make up a gallery of paradigms for the
Wanderer”

Spanish picaresque novels were first person narratives of a wandering vagabond type who went from place to place. The Picaro is a cynical and amoral rascal who lives by his wits and would rather scam his way than earn a living by the normal labours in a country that is full of hypocrisy

Lazarillo de Tormes was actually anonymous but published the first book in 1554

In Spanish picaro means naughty

I love these books they are really funny.

Rodaki
“what happens is that I get a clearer picture of what I am really looking for in the Wanderer: namely, what i can not seem to grasp is his ethics.”

Luis
“Hmmm. I'd say that, prima facie, that is the real test of the Wanderer, not only in the eyes of others but to himself. If we understand "ethics" to be a positive treat, that is.”

I think I know what you are both saying but we need a better word than “ethics” ?

It can be picaro no ?

I’ve seen that with my own eyes and I suspect that at least an element of that is a part of the ‘resilience’ that Brad talks about (although I don’t know if that was his intention).

more thinking....

Lucia

 

[jilt]

Lucia, perhaps we should write a book: anthropogigical things that matter for understanding the yi: with essays like: what is transcendence; the relevance of socialization-patterns; what are emotions; marriage, courtship and lovers; non-chinese philosophy to understand the yi; oedipus and the yi; the process of ritual; structuralism and yin-yang. Things like that.

But i think I will go through some trouble to outline some of Mary Douglas her thinking. Her thinking moved me to study anthropology.

Sto Kalo, pedia

 

[rodaki]

ok, what do I mean by ethics?
I guess i mean a state of relating to the environment, one that escapes insult without abandoning one's nature . . .
perhaps that involves a transient transcending moment, perhaps the wanderer can only finds his home in that passing, fleeting light . .
ethics and virtue are also connected to the virtuoso . . the committed performer who momentarily looses himself in some sort of transcendence . . and that again is not very different from the ritual of mundane chores . . or is it? there were always troops of artists (and conmen of course!! ) who wanderered the lands offering art for a night's sleep and a plate of food . .

 

[rodaki]

opa!! Jilt seriously???????

 

[lucia]

Bert
"Lucia, perhaps we should write a book: anthropogigical things that matter for understanding the yi: with essays like: what is transcendence; the relevance of socialization-patterns; what are emotions; marriage, courtship and lovers; non-chinese philosophy to understand the yi; oedipus and the yi; the process of ritual; structuralism and yin-yang. Things like that."

Dios mio Bert what an idea! Maybe the funding deities will finally start talking to us again!

Lucia

 

[jilt]

opa!! Jilt seriously???????

wewea, rodakimu

I did fieldwork in Greece, my ex-wife is Greek from gythion.

 

[jilt]

Bert

Dios mio Bert what an idea! Maybe the funding deities will finally start talking to us again!

Lucia

I would go for that, Lucia. Then this thread would become really transcedental

 

[Sparhawk]

In Spanish picaro means naughty

I love these books they are really funny.

Pícaro ====>>>>

But only in this meaning:

3. adj. Que implica cierta intención impúdica.​

The other meanings are too negative and that one is bad enough...

 

[Sparhawk]

so true I think... and you made me want to buy that book when the funding deities remember my existence!

Lucía, if you are talking about Nigel Richmond's boks, you can download them from Steve Marshall's site, here.

See, the funding deities granted your wish...

 

[bamboo]

Lucía, if you are talking about Nigel Richmond's boks, you can download them from Steve Marshall's site, here.

See, the funding deities granted your wish...

I thought she meant Thomas Wolfe's book " You Can't Go Home Again"
But in either case, I am glad you posted that site Luis....i always have trouble remembering where i downloaded it from.

 

[lucia]

Luis (el bribón)

De verdad y acuerdo y muchisimo gracias para el enlace !

Luis is pointing out that picaro, of course, has more meanings (I dunno I once wanted to open a shop called Cosas Picaras – it wasn’t that indecent…) including cunning, rascal, sneaky, crafty, racy, mischievous, etc and I might add all further complicated by whether you are latino and from which part or Spanish or what etc

To illustrate the point: in my stomping ground hijo de puta is a positive exclamation like wow! If you say it in that way in Madrid you’ll get your face slapped. But then most of the Spanish speaking world considers my neck of the woods uncouth anyway....cutre no?

Meanwhile, stories of the Wanderer – what an idiot I am to forget Monkey!!
From whence came the cartoon.

It comes from the 16 century also but originated much, much earlier than that Song dynasty I think.

I loved the cartoon all that shape shifting and flying around on clouds and demon battling.

Anyway a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West

Lucia

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis is pointing out that picaro, of course, has more meanings (I dunno I once wanted to open a shop called Cosas Picaras – it wasn’t that indecent…) including cunning, rascal, sneaky, crafty, racy, mischievous, etc and I might add all further complicated by whether you are latino and from which part or Spanish or what etc

If I were to open a little shop called "Cosas Pícaras," I would sell sexy lingerie and sex toys...

To illustrate the point: in my stomping ground hijo de puta is a positive exclamation like wow! If you say it in that way in Madrid you’ll get your face slapped. But then most of the Spanish speaking world considers my neck of the woods uncouth anyway....cutre no?

I've been around and the only place I can think of that an exclamation of "¡qué hijo de puta!" would be taken as a compliment is my own neck of the woods: The River Plate region... If you agree, yes, I also agree we have "particular" sense of humor...

My surprise was the first time a Puertorrican called me a "puto" and that, for them, that actually meant "mujeriego."

That was "before" I got married, mind you. Now, only the sense of humor remains from my "mujeriego" days...

 

[lucia]

Luis

Pues tengo que decir hola putito (un saludo cariñoso en mi barrio)…

y esta idea subió porque pa’ un ratito tenía un compañero de piso italiano (jovencito, muy guapo) que vino a casa una noche con cara blanca diciendo que las muchachas alrededor de aquí son peores que los muchachos en Roma!! (de verdad…)

Tenía un amigo porteño y habíamos puesto todo nuestro dinero en un documental political. Estabamos sin plata ni pa’ la comida ni na, teníamos solamente dos cámaras entre nosotros, pero tenía una opción en una tienda sin pagar el dinero adelante. Cosas picaritas y fotografía erotica - pensé que sería más diversión que bodas pijas no? (no lo hicemos)

but meanwhile this was an interesting thread about Hex 56 and maybe by the time we get to it's memorising thread we'll have some further ideas?

Lucia

 

[Sparhawk]

Cosas picaritas y fotografía erotica - pensé que sería más diversión que bodas pijas no? (no lo hicemos)

Shame, shame... Nothing to share with friends now...

 

[rodaki]

dear everyone . .

yet again been going thru another wave of upheaval . . for some reason I've been feeling deeply sad ever since I last posted (and it's strange how Yi has described the same feeling of sadness as 34.5 . .)
I also feel that perhaps I went a bit overboard with my idealistic views (yes, idealism runs high around here -I'm a cancer with a moon in aquarius, I really can't help it) but there's always a feeling of relief when people draw me back to earth
At this point I feel shaken and stirred (while there's discussion of 51?? lol! our life is like butter, of course Yi will show its marks when we apply our life with it!)

I hope I haven't offended anyone in the meantime . .

I joined you here looking for teachers and a way to learn. I'm moved to say I have found both. Now my life beyond this room and this screen is getting all the more demanding, I have to go after it . .
it goes without saying I can in no way leave aside the Yi: it/they/you have brought me so far, I trust (while in fear) that the road is always ahead . .
I'm still around, only keeping silent . .

with dear feelings,
Dora

p.s.:a great many thanks to everyone, but especially for this one, to the people who made the amazing thread of 'In tune' (http://www.onlineclarity.com/friends/showthread.php?t=2146)

 

[meng]

Hi Dora,

I have no idea what you mean by going overboard with your idealistic views. I have thoroughly enjoyed exchanging thoughts with you here, and hope to hear more from you in the future.

Bruce

 

[Sparhawk]

As Anita used to say here: "Best on your quest"

 

[rodaki]

Thank you both . .

:bows:

 

[maremaria]

Hi Dora,

Hope to see you soon on the board.

Take care
Maria

 

[Trojina]

I think everyone here has welcomed and enjoyed your posts Dora, I know I have anyway. I wouldn't say you were too idealistic, just a person of sensitive intelligence with a quite unique way of viewing the Yi

 

[lucia]

but meanwhile this was an interesting thread about Hex 56 and maybe by the time we get to it's memorising thread we'll have some further ideas?

Lucia

Hiya Dora
forgive me for quoting myself but I just wanted to repeat - I really enjoyed this thread and you sparked off some great conversations and interesting thoughts how can that be too idealistic ?

hope all goes well

Lucia

 

[rodaki]

oh dear . . thank you all for your so oh so nice comments and replies!

I was just thinking about what I've called 'idealism' and the sadness of 34.5 . . being a bit quixotic with words is sth I've seen myself doing repeatedly, so in a way it's always there in my self-criticism (lucky for me some of my friends had a stinging sense of humor and taught me a thing or two about self-sarcasm! lol!)

oh and here's a little happy song I caught on the radio today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tezx03k8W4s

see you around!
:bows: