Dear Doodleboy and Voltairine

[Liselle]

You are missing the fact that Yi is a teacher and is to be respected.

That's fine. I have seen readings work that way in probably several different ways.

But if Yi is trying to teach me something with this 26.6 > 11 reading, then what is it???

I can't learn anything if I don't know what the reading meant.

I have read every translation and commentary since yesterday that I have access to, and nothing has clicked for me, either during or after the actual events. As I explained in my initial post, what I thought the reading meant changed several times during my shopping expedition - I honestly think I kept an open mind about it.

But I cannot make any sense of it.

Trojina, do you have any insight into 26.6 > 11 which you could share? You often come up with really nice interpretations, and I'd appreciate your take on this one.

And/or, would you answer the question I posed? If you got 26.6 > 11 in a similar situation, what would you think and what would you do?

 

[Liselle]

I answered this already but it seems you do not wish to accept the answer it is being given.

You didn't ASK about the process of obtaining the gift when you got the 26.6 > 11 answer, at that time, in your mind there was no doubt whatsoever that obtaining the gift wouldn't be a problem and therefore the answer could not reflect the later issues you encountered. You simply didn't ASK about that.

Yes, both you and Missann said similar things (not exactly the same, but similar). Missann said she thought the I Ching is a bit Aspergery about being literal.

I didn't respond because I don't really think that's true. I don't think Yi looks for loopholes like that, to play "exact words" games with.

Yi can be very literal, but it can also be very un-literal. It can answer in metaphor, it can answer by there being one or two words in a line text that are the key, it can answer by suggesting you go back to a previous reading and pay more attention to it (I've had 24uc where I'm pretty sure that's what it was saying), or, it can answer where simply the common or standard interpretation of a line or hexagram is the answer.

On this matter specifically, I think I asked a pretty open-ended question. I asked, "Send [person] some [items]?" I agree that the question could have been even more open-ended if I'd left out the word "send." I could have worded it, "[Items] for [person]?" (Like, "Crayons for Susie?" if I was thinking of getting Susie some crayons.)

But still, I think the question was probably open-ended enough? That's just my opinion, but I honestly don't think the specific wording of the question is the problem here.

And yes, you're right, what I had in my head was whether the person would still be tickled to get these things that they liked 20 years ago, or, not so much. But my question itself was not that specific - I didn't ask, "Will [person] still like [items]?" or "How does [person] feel about [items]?"

Do you see the difference? I'm not sure I'm explaining very well, but I think I kept my question more open-ended than what was in my head.

I think people often have something in their head when they ask a question. I guess I think the best we can probably do is try to keep the actual question as open as we can.

 

[Liselle]

If she would stop filling up the tank (I never do) the problem, and it is a serious problem, would disappear, whatever its cause, of which there may be many.

Pocossin, it may come to that (just not filling up the tank, period). I mean, if I don't fill the tank, then obviously it is guaranteed not to overflow. It's certainly not that I think you're wrong about this.

The reason I haven't fallen all over that solution like a starving dog on a bone is just because I think it might first be worth seeing what happens if I make absolutely sure the nozzle is in all the way. That is a simple thing to test. If I do that, and never have another overflow, then maybe I just happened to mess up the nozzle insertion twice in my life, and those two times happened to be on two consecutive fill-ups. That may not be the most likely explanation, but stranger things have happened, maybe? uch:

That is, if I have the nerve to try it again. I haven't been to the gas station since the second overflow, so things are in a holding pattern right now.

If I have another overflow when I'm as certain as I can be that the nozzle was inserted as far as it will go - then I'll either do what you're saying, or have a mechanic look at it.

 

[pocossin]

if I don't fill the tank, then obviously it is guaranteed not to overflow.

I can't say that, Lisa. A tank is never empty. It may be full of gasoline or full of air, but it's never a vacuum. If the air is not properly vented, then the tank may overflow even when not full of gasoline, I think. I am looking forward to your report on the next time you get gas.

 

[anemos]

So why would Yi answer some questions so nicely, and then do this kind of thing with others?

Smiles , because was thinking the same yesterday and having no access to internet haven't follow this discussion. I think for some issues we have the resources to find solutions and we can rely on them and other issues can be novel and we need another kind of thinking and more effortfull processes to solve them, a more complex one than using our "intuition" which, I believe , is not always right.

I think Yi assists both ways of how we make judgments and choices. The way the texts are constructed , help our , what Kahneman [FONT=arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]calls, fast thinking , the"effortless" path (roughly speaking) and also provides useful information when there is a need for a more deliberate approach. Sometime , the way we have "constructed" the world is not the only one, or the correct one.. etc. Sometimes , facing something novel, however big or small is , we just don't know.

Why an answer is unclear , maybe be due to various reasons; the problem needs re-framing, we ask a substitute question and not the real one, our intuition and everything consist it could lead us to mistakes..etc, etc; its a long list.

You talked about second-guessing. I think we need to second-guessing, to a degree tho. I'll say it with affection, that sometimes you overdo it , you have said it too, but maybe its your way to find your balance and your personal code with Yi. Sometimes , the answers have no words and its not possible to explain them, but your body, your senses know it. Yes, still those info can be misleading occasionally but , fwiw, I have find it helpful to forget about the problem, or the "message" I have to hear and just wander into the image and collect impressions.

I strongly believe, that Yi talks to both "minds" of us. Giving a fair change to both of ourselves might be helpful.

 

[anemos]

And by that I mean we are encouraged to seek easy answers with very little effort.

Some say that our "laziness" is how we are build in order to save limited resources. That quality is "used" for marketing/political or other, similar purposes. We are all 'lazy' , in some extend.

 

[Trojina]

But if Yi is trying to teach me something with this 26.6 > 11 reading, then what is it???

I find the concept of Yi trying quite funny. You consulted It remember.

I can't learn anything if I don't know what the reading meant.

When I started using Yi there was no internet and there was no other living soul I could complain to about not understanding it. So that was about 25 years of me and Yi by ourselves. I learned a lot through the process of such frustration as you describe. Hence no one here IMO can take away your frustration nor do they owe you explanations for the answer you got. Your frustration is your own process of learning with Yi and likely common to everyone who uses Yi at some point.

Do you really imagine we ever or always fully know what answers mean ? At what point do we really stop uncovering layers of an answer we have received 10 years ago. Do you imagine I know what every answer I receive means ? Of course I don't. As I have said before in other threads this is an ancient Chinese Oracle written like poetry so how much sense does it make to get frustrated when you can't see the answer to a question about modern day appliances or wotnot. I mean getting frustrated is likely part of the relationship you develop with Yi. Even after a lifetime of study of Yi, people do not claim they perfectly understand each answer.

As I said earlier using Yi isn't a reason to stop using all the other ordinary ways of finding things out.


I have learned so much from this forum and will always be incredibly grateful it is here. Yet not everything about Yi can be learned from forums or books or even other people. Sometimes it has to be you and Yi. In fact despite forums and so on when it comes down to it it is always still you and Yi.

Trojina, do you have any insight into 26.6 > 11 which you could share? You often come up with really nice interpretations, and I'd appreciate your take on this one.

In a nutshell I'd think the gift was a good idea. If I had trouble buying the gift I'd take it that the very impulse to buy the gift was a good idea. In any case the impulse is so much more important than the specifics of it's manifestations here.


BTW 'nice interpretations' are merely offerings...not guaranteed in any way to be the answer for a person.

What you often seem to forget is the subjectivity of the querent as the vital component to understanding. You are the most important part of the answer and as such in truth only you will truly 'get' the answer. The other day you asked why Arabella got hex 5 not 53. Well the reading was for Arabella and addressed her consciousness so how would I know. Presumably for Arabella in her inner world hexagram 5 was appropriate for her for reasons I may never know.


I guess you seem to ignore the whole inner dimension which I think Anemos explained rather well.

And/or, would you answer the question I posed? If you got 26.6 > 11 in a similar situation, what would you think and what would you do?

There are many factors around this question the most important one being as far as I can see the relationship with the recipient of the gift. If I had got 26.6 I might be thinking about the relationship and where that was going since 26.6 is a might big answer for a cup cake question....as well as possibly the gift was a damn good idea

But would I ever be in the exact same situation as you, in your consciousness ? I doubt it. Hence my interpretation for you or anyone is merely a suggestion, an offering. It is up to you to explore and open your mind to the fact that Yi really is not Dobby the House Elf from Harry Potter.....more like Dumbledore I imagine. You ask about cupcakes...maybe there is something more important Yi wants to say which might be about your relationship with X, Y or Z, I don't know.




I haven't read this query properly though... As you know I can't always relate to your approach to Yi. I mean the approach where Yi is held to account, arrested, handcuffed and cautioned that it need not say anything but anything it does say may be used in evidence against it. Then tied to a chair and forced to say in words you understand precisely what it meant.

If the mystery of answers makes you mad I suggest you give it a rest as you are getting all of this out of proportion. At the end of the day if we don't understand answers we must use our own heads and hearts....like most of the rest of the population do.

As others hinted at earlier you seem to have gotten to a place where your don't trust your own inner guidance at all. That is another reason to give it a rest.

BTW when I lose things I don't ask Yi...that would be far too time consuming and not the most effective means. Instead I shut my eyes, visualise one of the reiki symbols and then 'see' something that the lost thing is near to. This works about 75% of the time. I probably don't even need the reiki symbol frankly.

There is a lot more to you than your logical brain's methods of deduction. It seems to me you could wake up your intuitive side. To do that put Yi down...close your eyes and ask for guidance, look around..

Liss suggested something similar way back up the thread. There are ways of knowing that do not rely on logical powers of deduction. if you insist on sticking to that mode of thinking, and insisting others do the same , you will miss a lot.


Sometimes people don't even know how their answer from Yi answered them, they just know they feel better.

....and no I don't want to explain any further. Others will do it far better....

 

[Trojina]

....and also do not ask me to explain anything further here because I have a very bad wrist today and typing really is not good for it

 

[Trojina]

oh and no I am not mad with you I just have very limited patience for the idea that Yi should have given a different answer and it isn't speaking clearly enough and all that kind of thing. I prefer to leave it to others to explain all that...because you and I have been over this ground a number of times before haven't we...you remember, I think it was in the 37uc thread where I was trying to say Yi was not an obedient servant ready to do our bidding and clear up after us like this guy

[video=youtube;C5vZVZloySU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=C5vZVZloySU#t=14[/video]

which isn't to say Yi doesn't help us with piddling practical matters all the time ...but there is more to him

 

[Tohpol]

Some say that our "laziness" is how we are build in order to save limited resources. That quality is "used" for marketing/political or other, similar purposes. We are all 'lazy' , in some extend.

That may be true to a certain degree. An economy of energy is indeed essential and seems to be a learned skill and quite different to my initial inference. It seems we are hardwired to find the easy route if we can and I'm not sure that this is a beneficial survival attribute in the long term - at least in psycho-spiritual terms..

 

[precision grace]

Yes, both you and Missann said similar things (not exactly the same, but similar). Missann said she thought the I Ching is a bit Aspergery about being literal.

I didn't respond because I don't really think that's true. I don't think Yi looks for loopholes like that, to play "exact words" games with.

Yi can be very literal, but it can also be very un-literal. It can answer in metaphor, it can answer by there being one or two words in a line text that are the key, it can answer by suggesting you go back to a previous reading and pay more attention to it (I've had 24uc where I'm pretty sure that's what it was saying), or, it can answer where simply the common or standard interpretation of a line or hexagram is the answer.

On this matter specifically, I think I asked a pretty open-ended question. I asked, "Send [person] some [items]?" I agree that the question could have been even more open-ended if I'd left out the word "send." I could have worded it, "[Items] for [person]?" (Like, "Crayons for Susie?" if I was thinking of getting Susie some crayons.)

But still, I think the question was probably open-ended enough? That's just my opinion, but I honestly don't think the specific wording of the question is the problem here.

And yes, you're right, what I had in my head was whether the person would still be tickled to get these things that they liked 20 years ago, or, not so much. But my question itself was not that specific - I didn't ask, "Will [person] still like [items]?" or "How does [person] feel about [items]?"

Do you see the difference? I'm not sure I'm explaining very well, but I think I kept my question more open-ended than what was in my head.

I think people often have something in their head when they ask a question. I guess I think the best we can probably do is try to keep the actual question as open as we can.

Well, here is the thing. Yi doesn't answer one way or another this time or that time. It's not how these things work. Yi never really 'answers' anything. It's your mind, giving some squiggles meaning.

So the reason I said you didn't ask is because in your mind, in your intent, at the time of casting 26.6 ; you hadn't been entertaining the possibility of unsolvable problems. It doesn't matter how you phrased the question (although some will disagree); what matters was your intent because that is the energetic connection that makes the Yi 'work'. Well. That's just how I see things, obviously.

This answer could contain all answers to all the questions you ever had a cause to ask. Or just the one. And it could say million different things with this same casting. It doesn't equal that it will right but it doesn't not equal that either.

When you google the meaning of 'oracle', this comes upI've bolded the relevant bit)

Oracle:

a priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
a place at which divine advice or prophecy was sought.
synonyms: prophet, prophetess, sibyl, seer, augur, prognosticator, diviner, soothsayer, fortune teller, sage
"the oracle of Apollo"
a person or thing regarded as an infallible authority or guide on something.
"casting the attorney general as the oracle for and guardian of the public interest is simply impossible"
synonyms: authority, expert, specialist, pundit, mentor, adviser, guru
"our oracle on Africa"
2.
a response or message given by an oracle, typically one that is ambiguous or obscure.

Origin
late Middle English: via Old French from Latin oraculum, from orare ‘speak.’

I guess what many of us are really trying to say is that consulting Yi is really a process of meditation. So, if you want to know what the hidden message was (and there was one if you believe there was) - then sit with it and ponder and think on it until you feel you understand or don't care anymore - whichever comes first. That really is all anyone can do.

 

[Liselle]

So the reason I said you didn't ask is because in your mind, in your intent, at the time of casting 26.6 ; you hadn't been entertaining the possibility of unsolvable problems. It doesn't matter how you phrased the question (although some will disagree); what matters was your intent because that is the energetic connection that makes the Yi 'work'. Well. That's just how I see things, obviously.

Some of this is just everyone's individual belief about how an oracle works, which is fine. No one truly knows anyway (which is not to say your theory or someone else's isn't correct, just that we can't prove it).

But haven't you seen or done readings which said things you or another querent had no way of knowing? Or changed the subject entirely? I have. I realize an example would be helpful here, and my readings aren't organized or tagged well enough to come up with one. (Am hoping the Resonance Journal will help with that .)

As I said, I think most people do most readings with some intent or motivation in their mind. But I don't think the Yi is hidebound by it. I think Yi can and does tell us what's really important about the subject, or answer the question we perhaps should have asked. Not always, of course. Often it just answers our question. I'm not disputing the notion that the Yi can be literal; I just think it can also be UN-literal.

About this 26.6 > 11 reading specifically...I'd be fine with it saying something more broad, or different, than an answer to the literal question I asked - if I had any idea what that was. I can't learn anything from a reading I'm clueless about.

If someone has insight about 26.6 > 11, PLEASE share it. Many times, I have learned things about lines and hexagrams from discussions on this forum, which I had never picked up through my own study or readings. Two examples: the "bureaucratic process" side of hexagram 53 which I learned from the 53uc thread, and also, Trojina showed me a different way to see the 27.1 "magic tortoise" line (Aha! thread entry, original discussion).

 

[Liselle]

You are missing the fact that Yi is a teacher

But if Yi is trying to teach me something with this 26.6 > 11 reading, then what is it???

I find the concept of Yi trying quite funny. You consulted It remember.

---

since 26.6 is a might big answer for a cup cake question

AHA! ​

There it is, the key. Thank you.

You're absolutely right - the reading was out of all proportion to the question, in a way that wasn't apparent. That could have rung a bell..."What an odd answer," I could have thought to myself. "I wonder if there's something else going on here?" (or things to that effect). Then I could have explored that - asked another question, probably.

I can't say that now I suddenly know what this reading was telling me about my friend, or about my relationship with my friend, but at least I might have done and thought about things other than running
around on a fruitless shopping expedition.

I really do feel like I've learned something important here - another interpretation tool. Thank you.

 

[anemos]

That may be true to a certain degree. An economy of energy is indeed essential and seems to be a learned skill and quite different to my initial inference. It seems we are hardwired to find the easy route if we can and I'm not sure that this is a beneficial survival attribute in the long term - at least in psycho-spiritual terms..

It might be or it might not. It depends its the easy or more correct answer. Economy of energy can enhance our capacity to control impulses when they must be controlled, as ego-depletion can affect negatively that capacity.

 

[Tohpol]

Exactly. I think we are saying the same thing. In other words, context is all important.

 

[RindaR]

Just a response to the more general question within this thread...

A map has no meaning without reference to something (or an analog) one can know and feel . As I look back I can see there have been (many) times I did not understand Yi's answer because I was not able to apply the map to my own experience- at the time I asked there was not that within me to which it's answer corresponded.

 

[sooo]

Just a response to the more general question within this thread...

A map has no meaning without reference to something (or an analog) one can know and feel . As I look back I can see there have been (many) times I did not understand Yi's answer because I was not able to apply the map to my own experience- at the time I asked there was not that within me to which it's answer corresponded.

So then, either we are looking at the wrong chart (map), or we have no port of destination. OR, Yi shows us a chart but not one with our desired destination on it. In the first, we simply want to know our position. In the second, we want to know our position relative to our destination. But as an ex naval navigator, I can testify that crossing a great water includes charts of nothing but ocean, wide open ocean. During the largest portion of the journey, the nearest land is the ocean floor. One finds their location through navigational aids (i.e. in this case the IC), and can find their latitude and longitude, and then switching to a broader (actually smaller scale) map which includes their destination, can get a bearing on their position and their ETA, based upon the speed they travel and their course.

I think we sometimes get confused by trying to find relevance to our question when Yi shows a chart which doesn't include our desired port. Our choice is to trust the chart and stay the course or make needed course corrections, or to abandon ship and/or the journey - or we can throw all the charts overboard and trust our instincts, however many chartless ships have been lost at sea, making circles until their supplies have run out.

If we can not see our destination, and receive course corrections and other adjustments, we can become confused and lose faith and confidence, become frustrated, and lose hope. This is the meaning of perseverance furthers. For all we know, we may be led to a land far richer than we had intended.

 

[Liselle]

Rinda, Sooo, thank you for the analogy. In this case, I think "reading wildly out of proportion to question" would have been a terrific navigational aid - if I'd noticed that about it, which I didn't.

Maybe I "should have" noticed! I mean, under the (now almost certainly incorrect) theory that the casting was about the gift itself, it did make it sound like this small gift would be the greatest thing on God's earth to the person, and, while it may have been nice, it wouldn't have been that. And I never expected or intended it to be. I just thought it would be a...nice little surprise.

 

[sooo]

Lisa, we are creatures which have become conditioned to immediate gratification. Sometimes we just have to accept that the best answer is one we'll need to wait on, chew on, maybe for a long while, before the application dawns on us.

 

[Liselle]

How can I explain this. I asked the question - THOUGHT (incorrectly) that it was about the gift itself - and was immediately out the door to shop for it. If I'd been able to send the gift, I would have wanted the person to get it sooner rather than later, so that it could bring them some small cheer in their current circumstances. I hope you can understand how that makes sense.

It wasn't the kind of thing that could wait a long time - delays would have diminished the impact of the gift. Not entirely! OF COURSE not entirely. But significantly.

Now, after the insight from Trojina, I no longer think the reading was about the gift. I'm sure it's about the overall relationship between me and the person - probably the fact that events are creating a 26.6-ish "flow" in our relationship, with or without any one specific gift. Just a general, 26.6-ish flow. That's a fantastic thing! It makes me happy!

And learning to keep an eye out for this kind of mis-match between reading and question ALSO makes me happy. I'm delighted for this insight. Not that it's always going to be "the key," of course, but it's one more thing to keep in mind, one more way of thinking about readings. YAY!!

I'm really so happy about how this has turned out that I no longer care about the fruitless shopping trip. I'm really just plain happy. I'm sorry I subjected you all to such an unpleasant thread. But I'm happy with how it has turned out in the end.

 

[RindaR]

Knowing that this is possible may allow you to get from here to there without the unpleasant feelings next time it happens. For me, no need to apologize, they were your feelings- not mine.

 

[goddessliss]

Oh gosh LIsa - this thread reminded me of how when I first started on here that I didn't want to hear the truth either - I just wanted a straight answer and I would get extremely frustrated.
Now I listen so much more and have learnt so much about myself and the World around me. - Liss

 

[Trojina]

Well I'm glad I unwittingly helped.

Last time I got 26.6 I had asked how I'd manage on my trip to Holland recently. I thought I might find it tiring. I got 26.5.6>5. It turned out I didn't find it tiring....I hadn't been abroad for some time and after travelling all day had dreams and visions in the night of huge vistas opening out before me. The next morning I had a lovely boat trip one of the widest rivers I think I ever saw and it reminded me of 'heaven's highway'

[video=youtube;V29jnzjy500]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V29jnzjy500#t=4[/video]

that's not my video it's just the river. 26.6 permeated the experience without me being exactly able to point to where it was manifesting.



Thinking about what it's like when you don't understand answers...As I said I was alone with Wilhelm and some other books for all the years before the internet so many times I think I was frustrated with Yi...since I didn't understand it or I'd feel judged by some rather random commentary in a pop Yi book. However I'd put it down but then pick it up again......I'd like to consult anyway, it just seemed to help.

But there is one occasion where not getting it sticks in my mind. I was in a horrible work placement and one day I walked out. I wasn't suited for the job. Yi kept giving me 24.2 or 24.1....and all the time I thought it meant I must go back to the horrible job So I tried and it was awful...it didn't work and I beat myself up over it. In fact I wasted a lot of time in regrets over it. In hindsight it's clear the job was not right for me and Yi was gently suggesting a return to my own path.

I asked myself today what could I have done at that point to have understood the answer and saved myself the stress of the misunderstanding ? There were no forums, no internet and I didn't know anyone else who consulted Yi. On reflection I guess if I had studied Yi more I wouldn't have had that misconception. I mean rather than read pop I Chings I might have taken a more scholarly approach...or even read Wilhelm more deeply. But I was skimming....looking for the most obvious and not really aware to be honest that there was more I could do to understand better.

In that instance Yi was answering me but I couldn't hear through that basic misunderstanding it meant literally go back rather than 'returning' meant go back to my own route... I knew for sure in my heart it wasn't right to go back there so I got annoyed with Yi's answers. But of course I just didn't understand them.

I suppose now when I don't understand it might be lack of knowledge or it might be lack of orientation as described above. These days I don't mind not understanding as I know it will come in time and if it doesn't well then it doesn't.

 

[Liselle]

I rarely know what 24.1 and 24.2 are telling me, either, unless the context makes it pretty simple, like 24.1 meaning that something is physically nearby, or that I'm close to finding a solution or something. But I'm quite sure that if I got those lines in a situation similar to yours, I'd think it meant I had to go back, too.

Thank you for posting that example, though - now we have Extra Bonus Info about 24.1 and 24.2 .

 

[Liselle]

Update - events have made this entire thing a moot point (for good reasons ).

I guess I see hex 11, Flow, in this situation most strongly. Maybe 26.6 is saying the flow is in good ways rather than bad.

Still, I think Trojina's insight could have helped me, personally, avoid a lot of turmoil. (I don't care if it was unwitting, Trojina! It's still a great insight IMO ). If I would have caught that, I could have at least stopped and asked another question - "Okay, what is going on; what should I know?" or something. No clue whether I would have ever guessed the actual outcome - that may not have even been a desired goal - but I might have at least given myself a chance to proceed more appropriately in my own actions.

(I'm assuming this is now the end, but I've thought that how many times already .)

 

[Liselle]

P.S.: We can probably all see how Rinda and Sooo's navigational analogy applies here - the real-world outcome was not on any "map" in my possession. But I think the reading could have prevented me from sailing in circles, if I'd responded to it more astutely. You don't always have to actually see the destination, as long as you keep yourself pointed in the right direction.