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Help w/ understanding to "Make an Offering" and/or ".. a Sacrifice"

matt

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The traditional idea of sacrifice, in todays society, is an almost noble concept. The idea that the spirit we give, will benefit another spirit, at the loss of our own. But in this loss of spirit, in this sacrifice, we open ourselves to recieve from the Universal well. So in essence, we may receive because we have lost, due to a noble or good act. Senn from this perspective, it is related to the principles shown in Karma, something I do not adhere to, and believe is a manmade misinterpretation of Buddhas teaching.

Sacrifice should not be...sacrifice, in the way we view it, I agree with Val here. Sacrifice should be as natural as a smile and as free as the breathe. If we see the Universe as an interpenetarting, interconnected field of energy, then everything is part of everything, anything we give out, we give to ourselves. Anything we recieve, we receive from another part of ourselves. Sacrifice was often a ritual ceremony in older tribes, so they may alleviate fear and release it as an offering into the great midst of space. But are they not just releasing fear into another part of themselves? By Distancing fear in this way, they draw it closer to themselves, and sacrifice becomes a habitual process to release energy that keeps coming back. Fear should be held onto, it is our true guide and friend, something we take with us, not to be discarded.

Sacrifice is a means to become more versatile. To diminish the self - Hexagram 41. However, I say that sacrifice should be like a smile, free and natural, this is not how it feels a lot of the time! Sometimes sacrifice feels like a lump in the back of our throat, or a knot in the pit of our stomachs. The feeling that we may have to lose something, to diminish ourselves, so the new seeds of Spring may be grown. For if we are too full, we cannot be filled, we empty ourselves so we may grow again - Augmenting and Diminishing.

The Tao Ching says;

"And he who courts Loss is one with Loss.
...To be one with Loss is to be a welcome accession to Loss"

So when we label sacrifice as "loss" it can often be a very unappealing little creature. So we attach a nobility to those who approach it, those who enagage in it, we attach a courage and bravery for those who practise "self-sacrifice". And this is seen as something which can be praised in a person. Just another way to complicate a simple truth. As simple as - Loss is just like a river, it is unafraid to lose its form, yet continues without thought of loss or gain, because anything that is "lost" is simply a distant return, and anything that is gained is simply waiting to be lost.
 
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bruce

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"As simple as - Loss is just like a river, it is unafraid to lose its form, yet continues without thought of loss or gain, because anything that is "lost" is simply a distant return, and anything that is gained is simply waiting to be lost."
happy.gif
!
 

hilary

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Of course whether you 'sacrifice' or not depends on how you define sacrifice. But for me, and I think possibly also for the Zhou, it's not just 'giving in order to get'. It's more 'this is how the cosmos works: would you like to join in?'

41 leads to 42; 42 flows into 41. There's a cycle constantly at work. You can step into it at any point, through willingness to give or to receive, and you become part of the whole thing. What you do or don't want to get in return is a secondary issue.

Sacrifice in Zhou times was, at least some of the time, a matter of sharing with the ancestors, reaffirming the connections and the harmony of the world. Not just do ut des (giving in order to receive). (How are you getting on with Puett, Val? I think I'll grind to a halt after the Dazhuan section and go back to the beginning to reread.)
 

hilary

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P.S. When I posted this, I hadn't seen the three posts before. I reckon we're thinking in the same directions, though.
 

cal val

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Lotti...

You make the same point that Stephanie Golden does. She doesn't let go of the word 'sacrifice' at all in the book. In the end, she prescribes a different attitude toward it... a Buddhist attitude. But I don't do Buddhist either. My spiritual belief is dictated by my own spiritual experience, and I explained that above.

Hi Hilary...

Absolutely agreed that it's all in the definition. The definition that I can't get away from though which is the basic foundation of the word... is:

<blockquote>"Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim."</blockquote>

Consequently and also because of what I've already read in the Puett book, I can't attach it to "making sacred" I completely agree with what you say about 41 and 42 and stepping into it. I give and receive constantly... it's part of living in the universe. I still can't perceive it as any sacrifice on my part.

The one sacrifice from dictionary.com that I do find acceptable is:

Baseball. A sacrifice hit or sacrifice fly.

*grin*

More on Puett in a bit. I'm at the library as we speak.

Love ya,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi Hilary...

I'm thoroughly enjoying the Puett book so far... but I haven't gotten very far. I've checked too many books out of this library that I'm reading before their due date before I get back into it. But I can hardly wait. I like his style. Last night, though, I put everything down and looked at Shaughnessy's Mawangdui I Ching instead. *sigh*

I found it quite coincidental that as soon as I started reading it, Bruce brought up the concept of transcendence. I agree that Chinese spiritual beliefs prohibit the possibility of transcendence because of the more intimate relationship with their gods and ancestors and, unlike Weber, I applaud them.

I agree with him that the early Zhou approach to the spirits... "It is your will" as opposed to the Shang "Would you pretty please do for me" was not necessarily a change in their belief system. It was merely a more psychologically effective approach.

Some things he's said make me wonder if there ever was a Mandate of Heaven before Wen decided to take over the neighborhood. My gut says Wen's spin doctors worked it up to garner support for his cause. I have this image of King Zhou getting the word that he's lost the Mandate of Heaven and that it was given to King Wen, and saying "Huh... Mandate of Heaven? I lost it? I didn't even know I had it. What is it?" I'm being silly, of course, and I suspect as I continue to read, that little comedy sketch will be wiped from my mind.

More on the subject of sacrifice... I've been accused over the years by others (referring to some of the things I've done) of making great sacrifices. The care I've given to animals over the years is an example. Another is lobbying against a major world corporation to end a particular nasty injustice they engaged in. And I while I've been focused on those activities, I never perceived of myself making sacrifices. I was simply doing what had to be done and bearing the consequences of my decisions and actions.

I think the reason I may never have contemplated any of my choices or actions to be sacrifices and the reason I could never relate to women who believe in making sacrifices in relationships is the same reason my first therapist said to me, "There's nothing wrong with you that isn't wrong with any normal red-blooded male." LMAO It's true... I've always approached relationships like men do.

Love ya,

Val
 
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bruce

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Hiya Val,

You seem to place a huge amount of literalness on words, such as: sacrifice, offering, prayer, transcend. You seem to narrow their meaning and their application to something black or white. Neither right nor wrong, of course, but it might be useful to see that not everyone intends these things to be taken so literally. Sacrifice, for example, doesn?t always imply loss, and gain - while not the intended purpose - is often nonetheless the result. There is such thing as a joyful sacrifice or offering.

Sorry if I'm misreading what you've been saying, but this is how it appears.
 

cal val

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Hi Bruce...

Yes... you're so right. I prefer not to streeeetch the meaning of words to make them fit my use or beliefs. I understand your poetic license with words Bruce... and I enjoy a lot of posts where you take off very imaginatively with lines and hexagrams. However, that doesn't work for me, and you shouldn't be the least bit surprised (IF you've been listening) because I've said a gazillion times here that I'm receptive to the Yi (receptive, receptive receptive... receptive is the key word here), not {creative} with it because I'm using it to have a dialog with my self... and I want the truth... not to avoid it.

In my love affair with words, I try to pick the word that best defines the thought I'm trying to convey... not pick the best definition for words to make them mean what I want them to. I'd rather spend the time trying to learn what the people who wrote the words meant than create my own meaning.

Love,

Val
 

hilary

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Hey, Val! Remember you're dealing with a savage linguist here! 'Sacrifice' means literally 'making sacred.' Sacer, sacred. Facere, to make. No stretch.

Looking at modern definitions - however useful that might be - they boil down to giving up something valued for the sake of something valued more highly. That's a net gain, from the perspective of the sacrificer. S/he may be deluded, of course, and actually giving up something of greater value, but that's a whole other kettle of fish from the simple definition of the word.
 
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bruce

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Hi Val,

I truly respect what you've said. I respect the differences in ways of expression, and that some folk are more black or white than others. You're right that I do take poetic liberties with words, and they sometimes may streeetch across the spaces of uncertainty.

As for truth, hmmm... it's where you find it, literally or figuratively, me thinks. ?The book? is loaded to the nines with imagery, which if taken purely literally would find no practical application, whatsoever, IE: ?let the young carry corpses?? Huh? Ok, so we find what it literally refers to some 3,000 years ago. That?s interesting to know. But what can we do with that here and now? We use it as a metaphor, streeetching it?s meaning to find useful relevance to our question. No?
 

bradford_h

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Cultures are neither monolithic nor homogeneous. Every one has sub-cultures and countercultures and a huge range in levels of understanding and degrees of comprehension. You can say that until you're blue in the face, but only those who have the ears will hear, and those who don't, like Rutt and the other academics, just won't get it. They need their little worlds to stay oversimplified. But still, some sacrifice to get something in return, some beacuse it's what's done, some to make the world a better place and some because they're compelled to do good. Some give to propitiate or appease the ancestors, some to feel gratitide for what's been handed down, and a few see the whole point of ancestor reverence as a way to encourage us to be better ancestors ourselves.
We can only insist on what sacrifice means to us. Some may have higher or lower understandings than that. It is always good to have specific definitions for words, but they should usually include and incorporate an understanding of the origin of the word, not merely contemporary usage.
 

bradford_h

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I live in the United States (I'm only a little less ashamed of that than of being human). But here in this "culture", more than 55% of all adults believe that God created the world and everything in it in six days, some time within the last 10,000 years. More than 55% of adults do not know that the earth orbits the sun once a year. Largely the same 55% of voters voted for Bush. The form of literature that outsells all others combined concerns the heaving of bosoms and the throbbing of loins. Now imagine if you will the archaeologists of the 51st century. 90-95% of what they dig up has been produced for this majority of the people. It is from this material that they have glossed their dictionaries of the ancient "Christian Romance Culture". Then someone uncovers some Steven Hawking or Carl Sagan. Now, as writings from the same Christian Romance Culture, it is still improper to understand these discoveries in and on their own terms. These were a single people. These new works must be translated out of the standard academic dictionaries compiled from the culture at large. Following this simple-minded rule is still far more important than that their translations make sense. Black holes must be understood strictly in terms of the second coming of Christ (still waiting) and the ripping of bodices.
This kind of thinking is distorting what the authors of the Yi meant when they spoke about offering and sacrifice. Imo, they were mostly addressing these from a much higher level and speaking about the attitudes of the human beings while they were performing these acts.
This narrow approach was delightfully parodied by Horace Miner in "Body Ritual Among the Nacerima", written for the Journal of American Anthropology. (I include it as an appendix in my Yijing). A huge percentage of readers never got the joke and thought the Nacerima to be a bizzare but real culture, as it looked just like a respectable academic study. In fact, it's just "American" spelled backwards.
 

dobro p

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"Black holes must be understood strictly in terms of the second coming of Christ (still waiting) and the ripping of bodices."

Now, *there's* a thought you don't hear every day.

I love threads like this. It's not just that people I like and admire are weighing in, it's not just that it's talking about something that important to understand in terms of both life and the Yi, but it's that I got something out of it. I understand the word 'sacrifice' better now.

Cheers, y'all.
 

cal val

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Hi Hilary!

I realized after I left the library Saturday that I was too hurried and abrupt and not clear. Yes... the ENGLISH etymology is to make sacred. But making sacred doesn't work for me. I don't make sacred and I don't sacrifice. In my spiritual world, I'm dealing with equals. And I don't get that the Zhou made sacrifices to make sacred either. Yes the offerings were set apart for spirits and dieties but to consecrate? Unless I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading, they didn't have that kind of relationship with the spirits. They were more like hosts and guests weren't they?

Brad...

I must say though that I was confused to see you refer to the etymology of an English word when you've said so many times that so many Chinese words don't translate well into English and especially after you answered one of my questions, "Etymology is not the science it pretends to be..."

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/4531.html

Well is it or isn't it? Or is sometimes, but not at others?

Love ya,

Val
 

bradford_h

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Yes I said that. But about and in the context of the Chinese language. Indo-European etymologies are a lot clearer. Our alphabets make it much easier to be more (but not completely) scientific than radicals and protographs permit. We also know a lot about Latin, Greek and the old Germanic tongues. Plus the database for Old Chinese etymology is extremely fragmentary, and limited to certain materials like bronze and bone. It's pretentious to claim that words found on these represented the only meanings they had, especially in a language with so few words to cover the whole of existence. And it's certainly far too fragmentary to make the claims the academics make with such pompous certainty.
I much prefer LiSe's approach - she simply makes the offerings without the assertions, and allows them to stand or fall on their own individual merits.
 

bradford_h

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I should hasten to add that English etymology is only closer to being scientific because the whole language developed in the few centuries since we've had that method, and since the Arabs brought paper from China. If we had to go back much further, say 3000 years, we'd be in the same speculative mess that the Chinese discipline is.
 

anita

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A little addition here - when the Yi mentions offering and sacrifice, to me it means something to do with the Temple.

My favourite dog Rasputin died suddenly (but was pretty old) last year in June. I dreamd of him for the first time last month and wondered why. I thought he'd died in August. And it was a most vivid dream. I've been writing about him in my novel - The Sacred Onion, and when I saw that it was not August, but June, I thought perhaps there was a connection. Maybe he'd come to ask me for a little offering to bring peace to his soul.
So I asked Sensei and she told me yesterday to come and pray for him. And offering? I asked? She said whatever I liked. So I prayed and offered whatever I could and back home yesterday, th moment I switched on the TV there was his line about Rasputin of Russia - about how difficult it had been to kill him!

I saw that as a sign from my dog. Something had changed for him, and I'm so glad I could help him even beyond life. We believe that our pets are connected to us from previous lives.

Best for your Quest Val

Anita
 

heylise

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My heart aches when I see how a beautiful concept is being used in such a narrow meaning. Sacrifice only as "giving up", nothing more, it feels like misuse.

Maybe it helps to see what the Chinese character actually means? A lot more than only giving up.

There are several characters for sacrifice, offering, presenting, worship, holding a ceremony. Translators choose what they think fits best, but that is no guarantee that it is the best translation. And it certainly does not include all meanings.

jian (20.0) (R+K: 'worship') b.f. Grass fodder, pasturage; straw, straw packing, envelopped object, a present; give a present, oblation, sacrifice; recommend, introduce.
The full form is composed of 'grass' over 'beast' (the beast eats the grass).

ji or jie (28.1) "offering mat" b.f. trample; insult, padding, underpad; lining, make use of; take advantage of (an opportunity/etc.), use as a pretext.

sheng (45.0) beasts of burden, livestock, sacrifice

ji si, (47.5) R+K: present oblations.
heng si (47.2) R+K: offer oblation
ji (47.5, 63.5) sacrifice, offer sacrifice to, hold a memorial ceremony for , (Budd.) wield. From 'meat', 'hand', and 'altar'. Putting the sacrificial meat on the altar.
heng (or xiang) (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 47.2 etc) sacrificial offering, feast, enjoy, penetrate, successful; go smoothly.
si (47.2,5) offer sacrifices to the gods or spirits of the dead.
From 'altar' and si, 'fetus' (phonetic).

jue (63.5) a special (spring-) sacrifice. From 'altar' and 'flute'.

chang (51) a kind of sacrificial wine. "Sacrificial spirits from fermented millet and aromatic herbs. Picture of a spoon and a recipient containing various herbs" --Karlgren.

LiSe
 

luz

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Brad,

Don't be ashamed of being a human! It's not that bad! I think it's still a notch or two above being an alien reptile...
happy.gif
 

luz

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I like this thread.

It makes me understand the 'sacrifice' and 'offering' references.. Now when I get those lines I will see them differently. Will not head straight to light the candles, will try to find my bigger self instead!
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bruce

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Lightangel,

Are you suuuure Brad?s not an alien?
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?I will see them differently. Will not head straight to light the candles, will try to find my bigger self instead!?

Why not do both? Maybe we should start another thread on the value of ?ritual?? It?s been touched on here before, but it could be interesting to discuss more.
 

luz

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Bruce,

I have often wondered... lol
(I'm kidding!!! I swear I'm kidding!!! Don't abduct me, please!!!
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)

But, really, I am only sure of one thing: Nothing is for sure!!!

And, to be honest, I never before lit candles, except for fun. But I would looooooooooooove to hear about rituals!!!
 
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bruce

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I have to confess, you seem quite abductable.
mischief.gif
But I regress.

Ok, I'll start a thread. But first let me ask a question of you.

Nah, I'll ask on the new one.
 

luz

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Upon careful consideration...
howmuch.gif
,
I don't think that being 'abductable' is a good thing...
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...

Now I probably need a ritual to be able to go to sleep at night! Please start the thread!
biggrin.gif
 

jte

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But Brad, why be ashamed of the US in particular?

Genital mutilation, marriage-by-gang-rape, child prostitution, government-by-drug-cartel, genocidal mobs... there's lots to be disappointed in with the "common folk" (and even the upper echelons) of other cultures, too, if your standards are high.

And certainly we have no monopoly on ignorance, superstition, and childish fantasizing, either...

You've probably seen this, but I'll put a link to it anyhow... http://www.bylo.org/100people.html

- Jeff
 

jte

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We're not *all* bad though... maybe time to "make a small sacrifice" and help give one of the huddled masses a slightly fairer shot at life?

Even though chances are good they'll grow up to be a superstitious moron, I think you have to help who you can...

http://www.smiletrain.org/

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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I can relate on some level, Brad. I?m not especially proud of being a member of the human race either. But I try to remind myself of the many small acts of love and compassion humans are known to do, as well.
 

bradford_h

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I'm a Libra, Bruce.
Almost exacty half of what I say is tongue in cheek.
What's sustaibable about what humans are doing will survive. What isn't won't. For those that insist there is no evolution, there ain't. The rest will get better, like them wonderful alien lizards.
b
 
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bruce

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Gotta be intelligent life out there somewhere. Meanwhile we do the best we can, hopefully.
 

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