Help!

[akira]

Hi, friends. It's the first time I have ever consulted the I Ching. I felt the need to do so as there is a difficult problem in my life. I am married and I have a small child and I fell in love with an older and also married man, and he has a small child too. We have a professional relationship but both of us have realized we are in love in each other and have taken small and careful steps in each other's direction, but now we seem to be at a standpoint and neither of us knows what to do. My question to the I Ching was what step should I take now, if any. I got #34, changing in the forth line to #11. How should I interpret this reading?

 

[hilary]

Hello Akira, and welcome.

The advice - as I see it - is to use the energy and power of the connection between you to break through barriers and move things onward. I think that #34, Great Strength, refers to the passion and dynamism of your relationship - which can be a power for good or might equally become a source of great injury. Whenever you receive Hexagram 34, it is vital to apply all this energy correctly, not to let it stampede out of control. (#34 in its negative aspect is like a ram who charges into a hedge and gets hopelessly stuck - not brilliant.) So you need to be true to yourself, and handle what is sacred to you with great care:

'The wise disciple treads no path without rules'

In fact, the first and best response to the presence of Great Strength can be to stop. Not to retreat, but to stand firm.

So you express this strength through #11, Harmony. It's another very energetic hexagram, with all the creative power of heaven surging up through the earth. It says that what is unimportant is going, and important things are coming. There is free, open communication, an unhindered flow.

Whatever else, the I Ching is not saying 'a minor crush, just forget it'. The challenge of #11 is to find harmonious ways for this huge energy to be expressed, so it becomes a positive part of life.

The centre of this interaction between Great Strength and Harmony is in that fourth line:

?Constancy, good fortune.
Regrets vanish.
The hedge is broken through, no entanglement.
Strength in the axles of a great cart.?

Bearing in mind all that's been said about keeping great strength on the straight and narrow, this is encouraging you to use it to break down boundaries. Provided you remain 'constant' - true to yourself, basically - you can overcome this state of inner division. You can break down any barriers to communication and the free exchange of energy and understanding, and concentrate your powers on translating movement into substantial progress.

Basically, this answer is quite literally the opposite of the natural, 'safe' answer: 'stand back, look, and stop'. It may not be what I'd have thought of by myself (OK, it's nothing like it!) but it is what the I Ching says.

What does anyone else feel? I think this invites a second opinion.

 

[louise]

I think its very brave to put forward this interpretation Hilary - as yes the 'normal' common sense response would probably be something along the lines of "you are likely to make a mistake, stop, think carefully, before you throw away your existing relationships". Here the hexagram 34,4 seems to me to be saying exactly what you have said. It seems to be saying "you can make this new relationship happen, and furthermore the obstacles to it will not be great"
Presumably there will be no huge resistance to it from existing partners ? To clarify things more Akira perhaps you need to consult about how your existing partner/husband feels about your relationship. If he has no great objection to you leaving him, then perhaps it will not be very difficult to split up. My own automatic 'common sense" view would be "oh no, surely this will bring alot of trouble, heartache and general 'mess' - especially as you both have children". The I Ching however does seem to say that you can cut through any obstacles to the relationship with ease.
I would be interested to hear others views on this, it definitely needs a third, fourth or fifth opinion - as its quite a serious matter - but Yi seems to be saying "go for it".
I guess if I were your friend Akira I be very wary of giving you the advice Yi has given you - but I guess Yi knows best - thats why we consult..

 

[candid]

Greetings and welcome, Akira.

Hilary, a beautiful reading. I must say though, I have a different view of it. One of the characteristics of the Wilhelm is that it can sometimes be heavy handed, extra punitive. At times such as this, I believe its more on, specially for that reason.

"But its strength has already passed beyond the median line, hence there's danger that one may rely entirely on one's own power and forget to ask what's right. There's danger too that, being intent on movement, we may not wait for the right time."

and again....

"Thus the superior man (person) doesn't tread on paths that don't accord with established order."

This clearly advises against moving ahead in the new relationship. At least within the mental framework of exerting your power, or pro-activity. You would indeed find yourself deeply entangled, as Hilary's ram caught in the thorns.

What does, established order, mean to you, Akira? Whatever it is, the Ching states clearly, do not tread on the path if it is not in accord with it.

I view 11 (peace-harmony-balance), as your own inner peace. This is the only place you're going to find it. It won't be through a tumultuous and desperate breaking up of two families. We don't need an oracle to tell us that much.

The light is inside and the darkness, outside. This is the picture of 11. Thus the light has a powerful influence, while the dark is submissive. This is what constitutes a state of peace, according to I Ching. When the spirit of heaven rules in us, our animal nature (needs) also comes under its influence and takes its appropriate place. "This brings good fortune and success."

In order to complete this journey so that good fortune is possible, the Ching says that you must divide the course into comprehendible bits. This allows you to actually see things as it really is, and not be swept into a whirlwind of passion and run-away emotions. By separating the specifics of your situation, you'll recognize the path which will bring you, ultimately, what you seek.

I wish you well, and hope you find your peace.

Candid

 

[nks]

Hi Akira,

What I notice from the reading is that it is confirming your sense that this love is a big force - like a bolt of lightning striking the established order, and, if not destroying the existing structure and rules, certainly electrifying them.

I honestly don't see the advice as absolutely pointing to "dump the mates and get together." To me, when it says that the obstacles you confront or imagine are easily overcome, I read that more as indicating that it is quite within your power to get through this -- you are equal to the task of finding the next step, figuring out the new structures that will be needed to direct this big energy.

You say you are new to the I Ching, and I see this as it speaking reassuringly to you of what you already know and possess. It doesn't want you to give your power over to it, it wants to remind you that you are asking for advice, and then it will be you (in your own strength) who will choose what to do with that advice.

The image of the strength being in the axles of the great cart seems to me to suggest that you ask yourself what weight each partnership in the equation can support. An axle is the link between two wheels, and the wheels can only move the cart (through the opening in the hedge?) if the axles do not break.

Since there are children involved, to me, this is crucial. You may or may not change primary relationships as a result of this electrifying shock. But regardless of how you choose in that aspect, you will be doing a lot of tending to the strength of relationships (axles) in the time ahead.

My best to you.
nks

 

[candid]

Wow! As I was reading Nks' comments on the axel cart and wheel, it occurred to me, just how well that describes 11. The center of the wheel, is the light principle. The outer wheel, is the dark. Then, there is balance, and all "turns" out as its supposed to be.

 

[hilary]

Wow also - just at nks' insights. I especially like what you have to say about the axle - an utterly new idea to me.

I suppose what the I Ching has not said is what the hedge is that Akira can break through. One aspect of it could be division between people; another could be inner division, the kind that leaves you feeling regretful or guilty.

Akira, I hope our different views are more of a help than a hindrance. Let us know what you think...

 

[nks]

My main I Ching text is Wilhelm, and I thought I was elaborating on something he says about what axles tend to indicate, but I could be wrong. There are a few carts and axles around in various hexegrams, so it might not be something from #34.

Wheels, balance, finding the balance point, maintaining the connexions, relationship -- there's a lot of Libra in my chart, so it's a set of images that I work a lot with.

nks

 

[pocossin]

Dear Akira,

Many views. May they help you to find clarity.

Question: What should I do about my affair?
34: 4 = 11.

The Image

Thunder in heaven above:
The image of the Power of the Great.
Thus the superior man does not tread upon paths
That do not accord with established order.

Hexagram 34 originally referred (IMO) to a woman in labor, so it is indeed a hexagram of power, but power that comes with pain ('Jabez' in the Prayer of Jabez). Aren't you and your friend at a standpoint (standstill) because you both realize the suffering that may occur if you proceed?

The fourth line is the line of association, family, and friendship:

Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
The hedge opens; there is no entanglement.
Power depends upon the axle of a big cart.

Friends make the way easy. Power depends upon someone you can depend on. Who is your 'axle' -- husband or friend?

Hexagram 11 represents persons holding together in mutual support like the blades in a clump of grass. Isn't this a good representation of the intimacy and loyalty you are seeking?

Best wishes,
-Tom

 

[nks]

The image of birth does seem to fit with the hexagram, doesn't it? In the matter of birth, some parts go fast, some parts go slow, there is not a lot you can do about the pace. But what you do concentrate on (both as the one giving birth and as the helpers) is making sure that the movement doesn't get stuck anywhere, and, yes, that it "proceeds along paths of the established order." If something is breech, you want to turn it around.

So, using this image, the oracle might be saying, don't let yourself stay struggling in the birth canal -- keep the process moving. Whatever is to be born of this situation, you are bearing it now. Concentrate on ensuring a good labor and delivery.

I should also say that I've thought about my reluctance to assume anything about the nature of the outcome. I think it comes from seeing similar situations for friends and in my personal experience. Sometimes the affair has led to a good new relationship, and sometimes it has led to a renewal within the old relationships, and sometimes it has just led to a big old mess.

 

[pocossin]

Yes, Nks, perhaps the birth of a new (or renewed) self.

I wouldn't want to "assume anything about the nature of the outcome" either, but surely you have known cases leading to a lifetime of bitterness for one party and a lifetime of guilt and regret for the other, so in this consequential matter steps should be guided by humanity.

On the other hand, divorce and remarriage now "accords with established order." If Akira and her friend are in dead marriages, then greater commitment to each other would be good for all, for life, and for the Tao.

The images of the hexagrams provide guidance, but they do not compel a decision. The scales tip one way or the other depending on the realities of the situation and what is in the heart. The struggle to weigh our fate raises us above the turmoil, I think.

I believe that Akira aims at an enduring relationship as symbolized by hexagram 11. That's what her casting suggests to me. If she and her friend were clear about what they want to bring into being, then they would be clear about what step to take next.

Hexagrams 34 and 11 seem so remarkably fitting for this situation.

-Tom

 

[louise]

Hello everyone - Pocossin - I wasn't aware that 34 was originally an image of a woman in labour ? As 3 relates to birth - is birth - I've never associated 34 with it. I suppose 3 could be the actual birth (of whatever)whereas 34 is the process of labour ? I've never come accross this association before.
Its a good point you made, Pocossin, that "divorce and remarriage now accords with 'the established order'". I feel one reason Akira's had many differing interpretations of her answer is 'the established order'is not possible to clearly define - we all vary on our ideas about
this - In my enviroment to remarry because you are no longer happy with one and wish to go to another is considered perfectly 'normal' - not necessarily desirable - but certainly not outside the realm of our current values - in Britain 2002.
The way we conduct and value relationships has changed so much in the last 50 years, what was the 'established order' is no longer. I think we look for personal fulfillment through relationships now far more than we used to. We expect more and if we don't get what we need we move on.
That IS the current 'established order'.
Unless of course the I Ching is not referring to any particular society's (either in time or geographically/culturally) mores, but is referring
to some other 'order' outside the boundaries of any particular culture.
So what does I Ching mean by 'established order' ?
Yi has been consulted over centuries by very different cultures (though I suppose only recently in the west) - I had supposed that the beauty of 'it' was that it could transcend any historical/cultural boundaries, and be relevant to ANYONE who asked sincerely.
This discussion though has made me think about how we are to interpret the notion of 'established order'. Anyone got any ideas ?

 

[candid]

Hi Louise,

I can only manage a short answer at this time, due to time constraints.

The established order is what the entire I Ching is about. These are not random happenings, but repeatable and predictable patterns which are universal. The hexagram which brings this into focus is #48. "THE WELL. The town may be changed,
but the well can't be changed. It neither decreases nor increases. They come and go and draw from the well. If one gets down almost to the water and the rope doesn't go all the way, or the jug breaks, it brings misfortune."

Established order, then, isn't about social or cultural dogma and tradition, but about immutable laws which shape and grow all that exists within the dimension we are living in.

To draw it down to whether a person should divorce their spouse or not, is too narrow of a field to draw any conclusion. Its still a matter of the "big established order," and our willingness to work within that framework, which determines the correctness of our actions.

~Candid

 

[hilary]

Hi Louise,

Good question about 'established order'. (You do have a gift for asking questions.) The first thing, I suppose, is to find out what it says... and 'established order' is a single word meaning rites, rituals, handling sacred vessels, and the quality of respect and devotion shown in so doing. These are rules created by society in order to relate correctly to spiritual powers and involve them successfully in human life. The sincerity of the person observing the rules is most important: you have to believe in what you're doing, not just go through the motions. Elsewhere in the I Ching, there are moments where you can create or refine these rituals for yourself. But in #34, it says in essence that the noble one won't take a step outside the ritual paths - so it does seem to be a moment for observing what is already established. This has to be meant as a way to contain your own Great Strength and prevent it from causing injury.

But if we're asking what the 'established order' is in this reading, we do also have to ask what the hedge is that is to be broken through! I think we might be coming to the end of what we can usefully say about someone else's reading. One thing that has been true throughout the Yi's extraordinary history: the person the reading is for is meant to understand it in their own terms.

BTW, Pocossin's ideas on which hexagrams represent what are all his own work, and based on the images in the hexagrams themselves. He has a website explaining all this... (go on, Tom, post the link! I want to know who else can see these things...)

Hmm - I wrote this before I saw what Candid had written. I'm intrigued to see how utterly different our perspectives are! (Any more?)

 

[pocossin]

Hi Louise,

The I Ching that I use is a reconstruction of King Wen's interpretation of the hexagrams. Hilary in her links section has kindly given a link to my website on this topic (Aardvark I Ching).

Although the hexagrams remain the same, their contents (associated texts and ideas) have varied enormously. Prior to King Wen there were two major compilations, parts of which still exist, and just in the last year -- thanks to Lorraine Wilcox, Robert Bereny, and Alex Chiu -- the Plum Flower Mind and Wen Wang Ba Gua traditions have become accessible for everyone.

You are quite right that in the official tradition associated with the received text, hexagram 3 is interpreted as relating to birth. Yang Hsiung (2 BC) says:

3. Mired #3
HEAD: Yang ch'i stirs slightly. Although stirred, it is mired in yin. "Mired" means: the difficulty attending the birth of things.

However, there are wonderful advantages to King Wen's interpretation, and I regret that it was ever neglected and abandoned. For one thing, the hexagrams become clearer and memorable. Another advantage is the focus on the invariant phases of life (perhaps Candid's immutable laws? I hope time permits elaboration on this).

My personal view is that good interpretation doesn't depend primarily on content but on frame of mind and spirit. If a person is consistent, focused, connected, centered, sincere, reverent, ... the interpretation will be good, whatever content is used.

-Tom

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/whitburn/1012/iching/ichingdir.html

 

[louise]

Hello everyone. Theres alot I don't understand here, but as I only had 2 hours sleep last night, for now I'll just tackle Candids post (and re-read the rest later.
Candid you say "To draw it down to whether a person should divorce their spouse or not is too narrow a field to draw any conclusion" Why is it too narrow a field ? Surely the whole point of consulting is precisely to 'draw it down' to our lives and concerns ? What is the point otherwise ? If what is meant by 'the established order' is too vast for our intelligence, then why should the hexagram refer to it ?
The less literal and the more ethereal interpretations get, the more distrustful I am of them.
Hilary I wasn't aware that it has always been true that a person should always interpret in their own terms - I guess of course this is obviously true - but then what is the value of asking others to help us with interpretation ?

 

[hilary]

Louise, you are a real gift, a walking education. I can't say often enough how much I appreciate your capacity for asking good questions. (Have you checked your ancestry for connections with Socrates?)

Let me try to sort out clearly in my own head what I was trying to say...

Taking the 'rites', aka 'established order' - I think the original text really did mean 'our social customs'. Obviously those particular customs don't have meaning for me - I find other ways of ensuring that (as I'd put it) God is actually working within my life. I imagine we're an increasingly disparate lot, and by now pretty much everyone here has different 'rites', some more obviously ritual than others, and different ways of describing what they're for. So when Yi says 'rites' it means 'your way of achieving what rites achieve', when it says 'your path' it implies 'and only you know what that is', and so on. We can say to Akira 'this means finding your own idea of what is right, what keeps you in touch with what is meaningful, and not stepping outside it for moral experiments' - but not 'this means following your love regardless of your marriage' or vice versa, because we don't know what 'rites' are for Akira.

Hm - I suppose that's what you meant by 'obvious', no?

So... value of others' help in interpretation. (You've more or less asked me what my job is, here...)

Well, it can help to locate us within our own landscape, pointing up contrasts and alternatives within it (like this one). You know - 'the reading fits together like this, here's the picture of what's happening, what's in conflict, what's possible, do you think you might fit in here?' If the querent is missing the first part of that, how it fits together, the rest won't happen.

It can also expand the landscape dramatically. I'm rather sorry I wrote that about 'in their own terms' now, it makes it sound as if you always 'know' already, and you're just addressing the reading within the same box, never surprised. Yi must have exploded a few million boxes over the years. Seeing how someone else can read the same line in a totally new way, point out the wood where I've been counting the same old trees, etc, really opens out the whole space for living in. (Thanks to the people here who've read for me!)

I suppose what I mostly do for people I read for is make connections, point out patterns, give them new ways to think about themselves, new ways of making sense of things, new options. Lots of expanding horizons and exploding boxes, I hope.

I am shamelessly borrowing an image from Yi here. I'm working on this 'I Ching email course' - at least, when Yi doesn't make rude remarks involving hexagram 4 and send me off for more studying that puts me yet further behind schedule... and I asked what unique contribution I could make with it. Answer: Hexagram 17 changing to 45. I haven't worked out the detail yet (and don't let's do it here on Akira's page, just in case she would like to claim it back from our ramblings!) but it sounds 'outside the box' to me.

OK, it's just turned into Wednesday, please excuse any resultant incoherencies. (But also please ask pointed and awkward questions about them!)

 

[louise]

Oh no Hilary I wasn't really meaning to question your job - only your post just made me think how we are all looking for others help in our interpretations - so 'our own terms' were obviously often insufficient - to us. If our 'own terms' were sufficient we wouldn't come to Clarity - and Clarity would not be as successful as it is. Theres no doubt in my mind about the value of the service you provide with this site. I've learned loads and loads since coming here. My 'box' was very stale, after years of just me and the 'books'. Anyway thankyou for explaining your previous post. I do understand now more clearly what you meant.