How should I deal with the people? Hex. 56

[moss elk]

1-three phrases that are in the same ballpark of meaning were used by three different people:
Stand firm, Stand your ground, and Take a stand.
▪None of those three phrases is integral to 34▪.
Show me the words in the text if you wish to convince me otherwise,
otherwise meaning is being put in Yi's mouth.

2-I asked Hilary if she would consider (meaning, consider the merit of....) that is fundementally different than insisting or demanding.
To which she could reply, "no, I consider it integral"

3-Good grief

 

[Liselle]

Trojina, Rosada, and I have already tried to explain why we think this is integral to the name.

LiSe (here) is quite descriptive about the type of man 34 refers to. "Robust, magnificent; majestic; strong; sturdy, in the prime of life," for instance. "Any impressive man: warrior, officer and such..."

Those are physical descriptions, and I think concepts like "stand firm," "stand your ground," "take a stand" and so forth - in their good and appropriate senses - are how one would expect such a man to act when the situation calls for it.

As for texts, as Trojina already pointed out, there are the sequence and pair texts (Hilary's translation):

34's Sequence:
Great Vigour follows from Hexagram 33, Retreat:
'Things cannot end with retreat, and so Great Vigour follows.'

34's Pair:
Great Vigour forms a pair with Hexagram 33, Retreat:
'Great Vigour means stopping, Retreat means withdrawing.'


Rosada noted that 34 not only follows 33, Retreat, it's before 35, Advancing. Hilary often says the Sequence doesn't work forwards, only backwards, but then look what 35's Sequence text says:

Advancing follows from Hexagram 34, Great Vigour:
'Things cannot be completed with vigour, and so Advancing follows.
Advancing means making progress.'

So from 34's own sequence and pair, we find out 34 isn't "retreat," and from 35's sequence, we find out 34 isn't "advancing," either - 35 is. So what's left for 34's healthy, strong, robust, sturdy man to do, if he's expressing the positive side of himself? Be strong while remaining in place: standing firm, holding ground, etc.

 

[Liselle]

Another angle, hexagrams as "what time it is."

33 - it's time to retreat
34 - it's time to remain strongly in place
35 - it's time to advance

 

[hilary]

ok, so now we know where you two Vigoratti got the idea of 'stand your ground'
(I'm a large hedge, you'll need a running start)

I'll redirect my comments to @hilary .

Hilary, if you were rewriting that commentary for 34, would you consider reworking it? the standing your ground bit?
Since the actions and implications of 'stand your ground not only do not appear in the text, the messages in the text contraindicate such actions and counsel to disuse Force and obstinancy.

Nope - for all the reasons Liselle and Trojina have given. As always, moving lines take priority over the text, and lines 3 and 6 can certainly be glossed as 'disuse force'. (Though incidentally, the ram could usefully have followed advice to stand firm, too - a bit late now, but that would have kept him out of the hedge.) Meanwhile the Oracle says that constancy bears fruit, line 2 says that constancy is blessed, and line 4 indicates that by persistent and skilled application of force, you can achieve a breakthrough. Different lines, different messages.

And if by cultural loadedness you're referring to guns - fair enough. But I'm from the U.S. too, and it's not the first or the only thing I think of when I hear "stand your ground."

Very glad to hear it! Though it's probably just as well that that particular phrase isn't in my book anyway .

 

[Trojina]

1-three phrases that are in the same ballpark of meaning were used by three different people:
Stand firm, Stand your ground, and Take a stand.
▪None of those three phrases is integral to 34

…..by your logic this below isn't anywhere in the text either

34 isn't about standing your ground.
It is about restraining the forward impulse to bash things with your skull.

...but we know what you mean, some of the lines add up to that. You didn't return the favour of reading our posts to see what we meant. Your objection on the grounds of 'it is not in the text' was spurious especially since your phrase is not in the text either.

There's been a few words you have used to refer to us whilst not showing you have any respect/interest for the points we made. These were

ok, so now we know where you two Vigoratti got the idea of 'stand your ground'
(I'm a large hedge, you'll need a running start)

I smell s'mores down the trail.

I have no idea what these words mean. Couldn't even find them on google. If they refer to guns as Liselle seemed to indicate then it just seems even more dismissive.

 

[hilary]

A s'more is a campfire treat popular in the United States, Mexico, and Canada, consisting of a marshmallow and a layer of chocolate placed between two pieces of graham cracker or cookie.

 

[Trojina]

My point of contention is with the application of the phrase "stand your ground", which is culturally loaded in my country. And! And! And! it is not in the text!
it isn't stated or implied.


I directed my comments to Hilary,
I don't know why the two of you are persisting with this.

I smell s'mores down the trail.

Culturally loaded ? It's certainly not where I live 'stand your ground' doesn't make me think of guns.

Maybe we persisted because we wanted to be paid the respect of merely being heard instead of being passed over.

 

[Liselle]

Culturally loaded ? It's certainly not where I live 'stand your ground' doesn't make me think of guns.

It's possible it's a catch phrase from some movie? I really don't know - that was a guess on my part, when I tried to think how it could be "culturally loaded" in the U.S., since "we" (not including I) are so infamously gun-happy over here. When M.E. brought that up, it make me think vaguely of "Make my day" or something - which is a perfectly non-descript, commonly used idiom, unless you say it in a particular tone of voice intended to evoke Clint Eastwood.

Regardless, authors of anything aren't responsible for various countries' catch phrases.

I have no idea what M.E. meant with his cryptic reference to s'mores. (Though they're delicious, and if you're now inspired to make some over any fireplaces or campfires you may encounter, you won't be disappointed.)

 

[Trojina]

Tom Petty had a song dedicated to 'stand my ground' nothing to do with guns afaik, he didn't seem to find it culturally loaded and he's american

Lyrics


"I Won't Back Down" lyrics

Tom Petty Lyrics

align="center" style="width: 100%"
|-
|

|

|

"I Won't Back Down"


Well, I won't back down
No, I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won't back down

No, I'll stand my ground
Won't be turned around
And I'll keep this world from draggin' me down
Gonna stand my ground
And I won't back down

(I won't back down) Hey, baby
There ain't no easy way out
(I won't back down) Hey, I
Will stand my ground
And I won't back down

Well, I know what's right
I got just one life
In a world that keeps on pushin' me around
But I'll stand my ground
And I won't back down

(I won't back down) Hey, baby
There ain't no easy way out
(I won't back down) Hey, I
Will stand my ground
(I won't back down) And I won't back down

(I won't back down) Hey, baby
There ain't no easy way out
(I won't back down) Hey, I
Won't back down

(I won't back down) Hey, baby
There ain't no easy way out
(I won't back down) Hey, I
Will stand my ground
(I won't back down) And I won't back down
(I won't back down) No, I won't back down



Standing your ground can be as simple as holding your space fully, being present to what it is. Compare and contrast to the pair 33.

 

[Liselle]

I must say, though, M.E., that "Vigoratti" is still making me giggle, er, chortle or something (several of us once had a discussion of how old is too old to giggle, and that possibly we have passed that age).

 

[Liselle]

I looked up the lyrics to that, Trojina, and yes, it seems to have something to do with romance gone wrong, not guns. No idea.

 

[Trojina]

I don't know what vigoratti means, maybe just a play on the word 'vigour'. Is it funny ? I posted the lyrics to the song here - he's had enough of the world pushing him around. All I'm saying is he's American and he's okay, clearly, with the term. 'stand my ground' and it's not about guns. Also I really like Tom Petty.

I'm not asking what the song is about just showing he uses the phrase 'stand my ground' many times.

 

[Liselle]

I don't know what vigoratti means, maybe just a play on the word 'vigour'.

That's how I took it, yes. I thought it was funny. Mileage can vary.

I posted the lyrics to the song here - he's had enough of the world pushing him around. All I'm saying is he's American and he's okay, clearly, with the term. 'stand my ground' and it's not about guns. Also I really like Tom Petty.

I'm not asking what the song is about just showing he uses the phrase 'stand my ground' many times.

Agreed. It's a good illustration, thanks for finding it.

 

[moss elk]

I have no idea what M.E. meant with his cryptic reference to s'mores.

I was trying to embody 56.

 

[Liselle]

I was trying to embody 56.

Ah. Okay, got it, thanks.

 

[rosada]

The "Stand Your Ground" expression as far as guns are concerned is a reference to a court case we had here in America a while back. A man took it upon himself to patrol his neighborhood watching for suspicious characters and spotted a black kid who was a stranger to the area. The boy was on his way to visit his father who lived in one of the apartment buildings there but the man assumed he was a thief and went up to him in a threatening manner. They got into a physical fight, to protect himself the boy struck the man but the man did not back off and the man ended up killing him. The case created an uproar because the boy had done nothing wrong, it was the man who created the problem by going up to the boy, but the man defended himself saying that when the boy hit him he had to protect himself, and that he was not required to run away. He was found not guilty and the ruling has been referred to as the "Stand your ground" ruling.

 

[moss elk]

And most recently, there was the instance of a man in Florida who had a reputation of confronting people and causing trouble who got pushed to the ground by the boyfriend of the woman the man-with-reputation was yelling at. When he was on the ground and the other man was walking away from him, he shot and killed him. At first, they were going to let the killer go, because of the "stand your ground" law, but just recently convicted him of murder.
As it was.

Clint Eastwood has done no favors for the progress of humanity.

 

[marybluesky]

Hello Albatross!

How should I deal with other people? 56. Travelling.
Your conversations will pass; don't put too much energy on details, nor be too affected by them.

How could I use the reading about Travelling? 17.2.3.5 to 34
Follow the course of conversation like a powerful person.
17.2: "[Liu]: By staying with the boy, you lose the strong man." Don't get lost in "little things"- details or frustration over petty arguments- so that you don't miss the great picture.
17.3: "[Liu]: By staying with the strong man, you lose the boy. Through following, one will gain what one seeks. To continue benefits." If you focus on more important things, the "little" ones stop bothering you. Then you can be around people and see what they have to offer.
17.5: "[Liu]There is confidence in goodness. Good Fortune." Those people don't have bad intentions- believe it, and your relationships will improve.

Good luck!

 

[Liselle]

Rosada, Moss Elk - we can hardly let one nation's current events, movies, etc. hold a 3,000 year old book, or this forum, hostage worldwide, can we?

I live in the U.S., too, and can still easily imagine meanings for expressions like "stand your ground," if they happen to come up in conversation or a commentary, that have nothing to do with gun violence. Again, not dissimilar to what we do withWilhelm.

 

[Trojina]

In order to avoid an ongoing argument I had decided not to post and assume they were just explaining about the gun thing.

These various incidents described doesn't mean the phrase 'stand your ground' cannot be used anywhere else in the world nor that it cannot be used in reference 34.

For someone to say 'stand your ground' is 'culturally loaded' they actually mean it's culturally loaded in their country in their time.

But apart from that it really was fully explained why 'stand your ground' connected to 34 and Moss Elk just ignored it, hasn't recognised in any way what was said by you, me or Hilary and just written about how the phrase was used in his country. I find that quite disrespectful so I don't think this conversation is worth continuing, I'm not going to carry on writing when someone just totally ignores what I say are you ?

I suggest we just leave it and if it's not left maybe report it as it is off topic. If someone wants to say 'stand your ground' doesn't exist in 34, doesn't even listen to or acknowledge the responses about it then it's not worth any more of my time and is off topic. I think this is off topic because it is now revolving around the meaning and use of 'stand your ground' which is not the topic of this thread.

Remember Liselle this is not a conversation or anything like one. Nothing you or I have said has been heard or acknowledged so why bother, just leave it. This is just being talked over as in 'stand your ground' is not anywhere in 34 because I say it is not in 34 and therefore Hilary should remove it and you can't say it'.......well it makes no difference really does it, I'm still going to be saying 'stand your ground' in connection to 34. Also Rosada was actually the one who he was objecting to saying 'stand your ground' anyway and she's American.

 

[rosada]

I was traveling last week and while thinking about this discussion I had to cross state lines. The sign at the border said, "You are now leaving Oregon. You are now entering California. Please stop for inspection." I thought that was a good representation of the Retreat-Stabilize-Progress cycle! Oh and the inspection (for fruit and vegetables - you're not allowed to bring out of state fruit or vegetables into California) required patiently waiting in line and following the proper ritual. So maybe good to recognize that 34 may not necessarily about standing STILL but about being cool, not ramming ahead, following the prescribed path especially at this tricky time of change.

 

[moss elk]

Trojina, in this thread you are also guilty of what you accused me of: being dismissive and insisting on stressing a particular aspect of a multi-layered thing.

I'll forgive you for misreading (more than once] how I said "it was culturally loaded' "in my country". <----- see it now?

I'll forgive you for getting at angry at my wish to stress what was written in other words as: 34 means stopping
(notice I wasn't the one who invented, 34 means stopping. it was written centuries ago)

I'll conceed that if you aren't Retreating, or Advancing, your standing the ground in between.

Bur I must ask you to Please stop accusing me of being disrespectful, as you are doing the same thing.

 

[Liselle]

I took Rosada's post no. 51 to be an illustration [edited: a helpful one imo] of 33-34-35 which could be described as "stand your ground / stand firm," etc., that has nothing to do with violence. It's just California holding their ground, literally their land, against non-native insects.

Granted, yes, I agree this thread has hopefully run its course on this topic...

 

[Liselle]

I'll forgive you for misreading (more than once] how I said "it was culturally loaded' "in my country". <----- see it now?

M.E., the spirit of what you said went farther than that. Trojina didn't misread or misinterpret imo.

 

[rosada]

This thread is standing firm...

 

[Trojina]

I'll forgive you for misreading (more than once] how I said "it was culturally loaded' "in my country". <----- see it now?

In order to avoid an ongoing argument I had decided not to post and assume they were just explaining about the gun thing.

See above, post I'd decided as I said, if you read my post in reply to Liselle, to assume you were both simply explaining about guns rather than going on and on and on about how 34 could not be about standing one's ground.

I'll forgive you for getting at angry at my wish to stress what was written in other words as: 34 means stopping
(notice I wasn't the one who invented, 34 means stopping. it was written centuries ago)

That's a misrepresentation, I don't even recall you saying 34 was stopping, that was never a part of the problem. The whole thing started when you declared with authority that 'standing one's ground' was simply not in 34. Liselle and I then wrote posts explaining how it was. You didn't respond to those posts just restated 34 could never include standing one's ground. So you ignored us and summoned Hilary since you said that was where the source of thoughts came from, implying we didn't have any of our own.

So what you've done here is turn what happened around. This was never ever about you asserting 34 was stopping - this was about you just saying over and over 'standing your ground' is not in 34 and pretty much just passing over our heads when we tried to explain why we thought 34 could be seen that way

That part of it, the sailing over heads like we hadn't spoken, not addressing our points at all just calling Hilary, that part of it was quite disrespectful. I haven't acted in that dismissive way to you because I wrote out posts to you explaining my points which you ignored. When I referred to the 34uc thread for example where I had explained thoughts on 34 you just replied

Yes, it confirmed what I thought.

34 isn't about standing your ground.

What that 'it confirmed what I thought' meant we don't know but you were disparaging.



I don't think anyone needs to forgive anyone, that's just what happened. It's no big deal, it's not a major occurrence but this wasn't a conversation that's all. If I think someone isn't going to respond to me I'll know not to explain things. It's better not to engage in conversations where actually one really does not exist in the eyes of the other people.


Shall we move on it gets boring after 4 days or 5 days or however long it was.

 

[moss elk]

I feel stress when I talk with people that think different. It is not for the difference itself, it is because I think that their position is irrational. Their incapability to see some details, that in my consideration, are important to understand the reality of some situations.

How universal your predicament is, Al.
S'mores for all.

 

[rosada]

Just noticed what the next line (35.1) says:

"Progress but turned back. Allow others to develop trust in you by remaining kind in heart."

No wonder it’s so hard to move on...we need those s'mores!

 

[Albatross]

I do not how or if I must answer every post in this thread. I am very surprised with the discussion. I think that that the phrase that identified myself and maybe was the motivation to do the question to Yi it is this: "A good traveler doesn't have to internalize the values he encounters, he just has to avoid actively antagonizing the natives". To the my inner self I do not want to "antagonize the natives". I ask the Yi because I want to be brave, to confront the ideas that sound wrong. That racist that Trojina mentioned. But I only stand in silence like a coward. But in other part, Trojina said that we must choose the battles we want to fight.

I built this believe in the moment that I began to read the Yi: The answer of the Yi configures the self of the person that ask question to it. Unconscious, subconscious, I do not know.

In the last months, I stopped the intense desire to ask question to Yi. But I found, How could I call it?, peace, confirmation, comfort. Any way, I found that first I have to chose the battle I want to fight and, second I have to built my inner self; "never rigid but able to cope with every challenge."

Thanks to all of you, Al.