How should I deal with the people? Hex. 56

[Albatross]

I feel stress when I talk with people that think different. It is not for the difference itself, it is because I think that their position is irrational. Their incapability to see some details, that in my consideration, are important to understand the reality of some situations.

But I am aware of my own limitations, I do not want to impose my own way of thinking. I am full of impotence about this situation.

How should I deal with other people?
56. Travelling.

Like I did not understand this answer from Yi I asked

How could I use the reading about Travelling?
17.2.3.5 to 34

After that I was more confused.

Best, Al.

 

[Trojina]

56 is pretty clear isn't it ? Be like a traveller, travel light, don't get caught up in legal considerations ie don't act like you're there to stay, you're passing through. If you are passing through there's no point getting caught up in argument, you have somewhere to go.

Read 56 and the Image. See the UC thread

Also a recent blog post

 

[Trojina]

Also you had a really clear answer, there was no point in asking another question straight away because you didn't understand that one, that won't help.


Can you see how your situation is like one of the traveller. Travellers cannot afford to get into lengthy discussions all they have to do is be pleasant when not at home and so pass unnoticed and unhampered so they can get to where they are going. Don't hang around too much with people you feel you don't belong with, keep moving on.

 

[Albatross]

there was no point in asking another question straight away because you didn't understand that one, that

In that moment when I did a new question it was like "yes, I do not want to 'get caught up in legal considerations', like you said, but I do not want to be disrespectful". So, when I asked the new question I had in mind something like how could I be a traveller but show the same time, empathy.

Thanks, Al.

 

[bradford]

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." Mark Twain

 

[rosada]

17.2.3-43 (not 34)

 

[Albatross]

17.2.3-43 (not 34)

Thanks. My mistake. I missed a line when I wrote the answer.

 

[rosada]

Curious combination - 56 describes traveling on and 34 is about standing firm.
Maybe it makes sense if you consider 56 is advising you to consider when you meet with folks whose thinking is not in alignment with yours that you needn't dwell on those subjects that arouse your resistance and that 17.2.3.5 - 34 is encouraging you that this is possible if you remember...
17.2 Arguing, needing to be "right" etc. are all characteristics of a small child.
17.3 The ability to let many things pass without getting angry or bored is the sign of maturity.
17.5 You can still maintain your warm good will even when you don't share similar viewpoints.
34.You can still maintain your position no matter what the other guy's ideas may be.

As an aside, I find it's helpful to have a few lines at the tip of my tongue to help me navigate when an unexpectedly stupid comment comes up in a conversation. Rather than telling the idiot how totally unbelievably f**ked up they are I say something like, "Ooh, I hadn't thought of it that way.." or "Well, I imagine there are a lot of people who would agree with you." or my favorite, "Tell me about your grandchildren."

 

[Albatross]

After I read your interpretations I think this is what Yi want to said me:

Okay boy. Don't you think that the answer is pretty clear. When you deal with other 'there is no point getting caught up in an argument'. Do you understand that 'travel is fatal to prejudice'? You can not obtain 'charitable views of men' when you stay in your 'little corner of the earth'.

Now you have a really clear answer. I do not see a point in asking again the same thing. But like it appears it was not enough. Here I tell a more direct answer: Don't be a child, you do not need to always be right. Be a mature man and let the thing pass without angry. Maintain your points of view, it is not necessary that the other person share your way of thinking.

Thanks, Al.

 

[Liselle]

or my favorite, "Tell me about your grandchildren."

I once heard Barbara Walters (author of the seemingly-relevant-to-this-thread book, How to Talk with Practically Anybody about Practically Anything) explain how she deals with ugly babies: cooing over them things like "Ohh, such a babyyy...," keeping adjectives out of the cooing altogether.

Albatross, let's assume that at least some of the time you're right, and the other people are indeed irrational. Part of 56's advice is not only not trying to change other people, but also not letting them change you, either. A good traveller doesn't have to internalize the values he encounters, he just has to avoid actively antagonizing the natives.

 

[moss elk]

34 is about standing firm.

What makes you believe that?

(hexagram 34 is about curtailing ones urges to smash things, and to use ones wits instead.)

Both readings are about the querant making a change within themself, instead of trying to change the other person.

 

[Trojina]

34 is about standing firm. whilst 33 withdraws 34 does not. Yes 34 does refer to the importance when wielding strength not to go outside the established order but it's not just that.

 

[Liselle]

Both readings are about the querant making a change within themself

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." Mark Twain

56 is about getting along, not changing yourself. Those can overlap, but they don't have to entirely. "When in Rome," yes, but when not in Rome...

I mean, we can't assume that whenever Albatross runs across someone she thinks is irrational, that Albatross is always wrong.

She can stand firm (34) in her own ideas without arguing and trying to convince the other person, which is what I think she said her question was about. I think 56's advice might be to kind of just nod non-committally and let things roll off your back, as a way to "deal with other people."

(Of course here we are, trying to convince each other about 56 and 34 It's kind of what we do here, though, and thus not 56-ish. (I think.))

 

[Trojina]

17.2 Arguing, needing to be "right" etc. are all characteristics of a small child.
17.3 The ability to let many things pass without getting angry or bored is the sign of maturity.
17.5 You can still maintain your warm good will even when you don't share similar viewpoints.
34.You can still maintain your position no matter what the other guy's ideas may be.

Not to quibble too much because you are talking about the lines but actually I don't think taking a stand in an argument necessarily means being childish, it surely depends on the seriousness of the issue one is discussing.

I think maybe the difference between line 2 and 3 here is learning to distinguish between what is worth your time arguing over and what isn't. Sometimes not bothering to argue is laziness, complacency or not wanting to rock the boat for your own comfort. If something really matters, for a reason, it can be worth pressing on with being right if indeed you are right and of course you may be not just wanting to be right for fun but defending rights of others and so on.

I think it's hard learning what is worth fighting for and what isn't, it's definitely something we have to learn as we grow up. We only have limited time and energy so we can't care about absolutely everything. Maybe 17.2.3 show that growing up process with fulfilment in line 5. I like 34 there as just holding your own space.

Someone told me, and it's not an unusual occurrence, how when she was travelling, doing a hike or something she got into a group of people who she liked, she was having fun, everyone chatting when suddenly some of them began saying outrageously racist things. So she's having a good time with these people who invite her to share time with them. Does she counter their racism, does she oppose them or let it lie because it will ruin the atmosphere or walk away ? I think we have probably all known something similar.

 

[moss elk]

34 is about standing firm.

What makes you believe that?
The text doesn't say it.

 

[Trojina]

What makes you believe that?
The text doesn't say it.

Well this might explain more

Great Strength, great vigour, standing, I think the etymology favours that, have to look at LiSe and also it is implicit in the pair, power, standing uptight, holding ground.

 

[moss elk]

Well this might explain more

Yes, it confirmed what I thought.

34 isn't about standing your ground.
It is about restraining the forward impulse to bash things with your skull. One may of course attach associations that are not inherent to any hexagram.

 

[Liselle]

I think the reason the Judgement and Image texts don't spell out "standing your ground" specifically is because it's inherent in the name, as Trojina explained. The oracle text repeats the name:

'Great Vigour,
Constancy bears fruit.'

Here's Hilary's oracle commentary:

With Great Vigour, you stand upright and robust, full of resilient energy. You are inspired and animated by strong purpose, and ready to wield your strength like a hero.

For this to yield results, you will need to act with steadiness and consistency – standing in your strength, but without mistaking it for omnipotence.

What you're saying, things like this:

It is about restraining the forward impulse to bash things with your skull.

- you're exactly right, it's in some of the lines. Hilary explains that by saying the lines (as opposed to the other texts) detail some of the ways Great Vigor can go wrong if misapplied.

 

[Trojina]

Because one is strong and has presence and power and can hold ground whereas the pair 33, relinquishes it, then one is advised not to wield this power and strength in ways that do not accord with the established order.

That can actually amount to exactly what you are saying. That in some instances you may need to curtail this great strength you have, that is what is advised.

You're saying just because those exact words aren't there it is not implicit in the hexagram, in the sequence, in the pair.

Neither are these words in the text

It is about restraining the forward impulse to bash things with your skull.

...but you have decided to make 34 totally about that particular aspect.


This is not just about negative impulses needing restraint if it was the hexagram would have been named that. Look at the name of the hexagram 'Great Strength' and 'Great Vigour'. 'The Power of the Great' - this should tell you that at this time with this hexagram great power is held. That is not always bad or about smashing things up. The caution is clearly there that when you have this power, when you stand your ground, do not go outside the law, which is pretty much what you are saying.


So you can't actually just state 34 is not about standing ground, holding firm, and that it is only about not smashing things. You've missed the point - yes power and strength are there and one is not in retreat as in 33 - but don't misuse that is what it says.


Crossed posts with Liselle think we agree with the inherent meaning in the name.

 

[Liselle]

Trojina and I are going to display Great Vigor on this subject, standing firm and united on the topic of hexagram 34. A fine show of 34-ish posting about 34.

 

[Trojina]

(Of course here we are, trying to convince each other about 56 and 34 It's kind of what we do here, though, and thus not 56-ish. (I think.))

Yes I think we are displaying the very thing Al is talking about

although we are right about 34, clearly

 

[moss elk]

ok, so now we know where you two Vigoratti got the idea of 'stand your ground'
(I'm a large hedge, you'll need a running start)

I'll redirect my comments to @hilary .

Hilary, if you were rewriting that commentary for 34, would you consider reworking it? the standing your ground bit?
Since the actions and implications of 'stand your ground not only do not appear in the text, the messages in the text contraindicate such actions and counsel to disuse Force and obstinancy.

 

[Trojina]

ok, so now we know where you two Vigoratti got the idea of 'stand your ground'
(I'm a large hedge, you'll need a running start)

I'll redirect my comments to @hilary .

Hilary, if you were rewriting that commentary for 34, would you consider reworking it? the standing your ground bit?
Since the actions and implications of 'stand your ground not only do not appear in the text, the messages in the text contraindicate such actions and counsel to disuse Force and obstinancy.

Er no we didn't just get our ideas from Hilary, we can both read the title of hexagram 34. I've put my points across but it's like you are talking over the top of my head...why are you ignoring what we've said...? It's quite patronising.

You are trying to reduce the meaning of 34 right down to the bit you want to emphasize.


To repeat the title of this hexagram is not 'disuse force and obstinance' it is 'Great Vigour'. To disuse something, to be advised not to disuse something you have to have it in the first place.


You only have to read the lines to see how force is applied has different results compare lines 3 and 4. Three is where it's badly used and in line 4 strength and power remove obstacles. So there's different ways to use great vigour. Great Vigour is there, that is why it is the title - and then it says don't use force wrongly, that doesn't mean it's all it says.


But hey you don't read my posts or respond to any of the valid points either I or Liselle have raised I guess we just don't count ?

k, so now we know where you two Vigoratti got the idea of 'stand your ground'
(I'm a large hedge, you'll need a running start)

What the heck do you think 34 is ? All you are saying is 'er it says don't smash things' . We have said far more than that, tried to explain but it's beneath you to respond to us directly ?

 

[Liselle]

You are trying to redice the meaning of 34 right down

Let's try to fix that.


Moss Elk, our point is that you seem to be confusing the judgement/oracle with the lines. They're not the same, and they don't have to be.

34's oracle might be more like the pure, idealized form of 34. Maybe that's even why the oracle text doesn't say a whole lot (not sure about that). It's just this - imagine a very deep, sonorous voice:

Constancy to that (^^) is a good thing, and that's all the oracle text has to say.
​

Some of the lines (the ones you're talking about) show a different side: what can happen if Our Hero loses his good sense, becomes stubborn, reads his own press clippings, etc.

 

[rosada]

Consider that 33 is Retreat and 35 Advance so doesn’t it seem fitting that 34, the hexagram between them, would represent the experience between running away from something and running towards something and that experience would be the moment of Standing Firm?

 

[moss elk]

My point of contention is with the application of the phrase "stand your ground", which is culturally loaded in my country. And! And! And! it is not in the text!
it isn't stated or implied.


I directed my comments to Hilary,
I don't know why the two of you are persisting with this.

I smell s'mores down the trail.

 

[Liselle]

Moss, there's a remedy for any cultural loadedness you might see in the I Ching, which is to mentally remove it and proceed right along. Same as we often do with Wilhelm.

And if by cultural loadedness you're referring to guns - fair enough. But I'm from the U.S. too, and it's not the first or the only thing I think of when I hear "stand your ground." It easily has other meanings, equivalent to "stand up to." Standing one's ground with a nasty schoolmate, etc. [Edited - also "stand up for," and so forth.]

 

[Liselle]

Besides, this whole argument started not with the phrase "stand your ground," but when Rosada said

34 is about standing firm.

Are you seriously trying to ban any 34-related phrase with the word "stand" in it?? No. Just no.

 

[moss elk]

Are you seriously trying to ban any 34-related phrase with the word "stand" in it??

Did you seriously just ask that?
This has become ridiculous.

"Stand up to" is not part of 34 either.

 

[Liselle]

Yes. Because (1) "stand your ground" isn't what started this, (2) you're asking Hilary to re-work her commentary, but she doesn't use the phrase "stand your ground," which implies that your complaint isn't only with that one specific phrase, (3) therefore I honestly don't know what your point is.