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Your Expereinces with Unchanging Castings- Hexagram 34

Trojina

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The only thing I can find in my journal for 34uc is that I asked about withdrawing from something a few years back and got 34 uc. Didn't have a clue what that meant. :confused: In hindsight I can see however that I didn't withdraw. I stayed put. Not deliberately as I didn't understand the answer but I did the opposite of withdrawing, I just stayed there.

It's only recently via this forum that I have come to understand 34 as standing one's ground. Remaining visibly present.....

The only other vague recollection I have of 34uc was asking of health when recovering from some infection or other. Again 'standing one's ground' would seem to be a straight message of 'holding one's own' , remaining there.

Wing says of 34uc

CH'IEN, heavenly strength, in the lower trigram firmly establishes the path of goodness.. Great Movement , CHEN, above, carries this out.. When you receive this hexagram without change, you must devote yourself to establishing harmony between your Self and traditional ideals. Adhering to these ideals will center you, regardless of your opinions of conventional values. This is absolutely necessary in order to give your Great Power the correct thrust - the thrust out of and beyond what may be a stifling situation.

I think in a nutshell the idea is if you stand your ground do so within the peripheries of the rules or laws pertaining to the situation. Someone here recently said you can only stand your ground within the customs/traditions/rules of what is perceived to be 'right' in a situation.

In the road outside my house there are repeated stand offs between drivers. It's a long road. When 2 cars meet in the middle and there is no passing space then someone has to reverse all the way to the end of the road to let the other pass which can be quite difficult and hard on the neck muscles ! The custom or rule is that the person nearest the first available gap/passing place is the one that has to reverse out of the way to let the other pass. People always stand their ground until they see that they are the ones nearest the gap. Sometimes it takes a few minutes to ascertain this but once ascertained there's generally no conflict as drivers only stand their ground within the rules of the road. Of course when it is not possible to ascertain this either there's a fight or one person just backs up anyway.

I'm using that example as a way for me to think about this idea of using strength, standing power within the values of the situation. However if the values of the situation are corrupt presumably one follows what one perceives to be just or correct according to one's own morality/religion/belief system ?


The Image helps with understanding the unchanging hexagram

From Hilary's book

'Thunder dwells above heaven: Great Vigour
A noble one treads no path that is without ritual'.

The action of thunder rests on the underlying principles of heaven. The noble one, acting with Great Vigour, will not be improvising and adapting as he goes along :such great energy needs better guidance if it is to avoid injury. He follows ritual - that is, he acts in ways that observe the principles of creation, and follows their patterns. It is not so much a matter of 'respecting the rules' for their own sake, as of respecting what is known to work, because it is in harmony with the nature of things.

Please share any experiences of 34 uc you have. I don't seem to have many.
 

anemos

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thunders and dragons..oy oy oy...

got 34 un 4 months ago I don't know if its a coincidence you used a car example but I associated then 34 with the start of a grand prix car race, just before its beginning when you can hear the loud sound of engines revved by the drivers.

I got 34 for something similar. a moment felt like accelerate and brake a car at the same time. On the outside you see a idle car yet inside the engine works in its full power. I wanted to get rid of what was brake-ing the 'car' and ask someone to help me - to make that procedure faster. They denied because it was not safe. Thought to ignore their advice, although I trust them a lot, and do it alone. Asking yi got 34. Well, I conform to both that person's and Yi advise and followed a slower process , feeling the "time" and moving appropriate- a safe procedure to ensure success and avoid danger .

more or less this is how I have experience 34 , but the instant I share it was , to me, a clear 34 with those thunders and dragons.
 
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anemos

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'Thunder dwells above heaven: Great Vigour
A noble one treads no path that is without ritual'.

The action of thunder rests on the underlying principles of heaven. The noble one, acting with Great Vigour, will not be improvising and adapting as he goes along :such great energy needs better guidance if it is to avoid injury. He follows ritual - that is, he acts in ways that observe the principles of creation, and follows their patterns. It is not so much a matter of 'respecting the rules' for their own sake, as of respecting what is known to work, because it is in harmony with the nature of things.
Hilary's take , in my example, resonates a lot. I agree with the underlined. You feel you have the power to do something but there are still things bigger that you and disrespecting them and misdirecting that power, can put you in trouble. should i follow my urge to do that thing in a fast pace would not only offer nothing but make things worse.
 

chingching

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I have got it few times When asking about a man was has flirted or hit on me, in all these particular cases they were much younger men. And interestingly nothing ever happened with them, well with one it did but it came of nothing because it was too much vigour really and whilst gestures and words were said with good intent, they just didnt do it right for anything to come of it.

And personally when I have got 34uc for my own actions I have done the same, gone in with a lot of energy and done everything the wrong way. But for both this , and the young men who gave it a shot with me there was never any sense of doom or ill, just recognition that it wast done the right way and now we know better for next time - a learning experience, and i guess the sum total of a lot of these will eventually make one grwat and able to harness such vigour.
 

Trojina

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And a consolation is none of your love adventures went to waste chingching since they are now useful fodder for the 34uc thread :D
 

knotxx

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I love this

I associated then 34 with the start of a grand prix car race, just before its beginning when you can hear the loud sound of engines revved by the drivers.

I got 34 for something similar. a moment felt like accelerate and brake a car at the same time. On the outside you see a idle car yet inside the engine works in its full power
"Stand your ground" is really helpful, too. Both of them have this sense of huge energy that is not going anywhere which helps capture what is for me sometimes the frustrating experience of 34uc. Still whenever I get it I have a sense of someone saying "you got this." As if it's reassurance that I can handle what comes.
 

Trojina

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Recently I was very angry. I took it to Yi and asked Yi for advice. I got 34uc. I took that as advice to do what I needed to without going beyond the boundaries of the situation. IOW keeping it within the laws of the situation. It was quite constructive actually. It helped that I wasn't being asked to shove the anger away out of sight or deny it, just use it to be there , to stand with it, without going beyond what was 'legal' or permissible. It felt constructive in the sense that it gave me a sense of containment rather than denial. I think it has been said, possibly by Hilary, that answers are events, not just slivers of advice, but actual events. That answer felt that way for me. In hindsight it was a very helpful answer.
 
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andrea

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I'd been hacking and rasping with a nasty cold for over a week. I'd missed two of my usual yoga classes. As I was starting to feel a little better, I asked whether I should go to a class that evening, and got 34 unchanging. I took it as yes, of course. (And I'm glad I went.)
 
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sooo

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Does anyone here ever think/feel/consider that the law or correct convention or ritual could afford to be expanded, that they're too tight, strict or rigid, rather than your power necessarily should shrink to accommodate those platitudes of convention?
 
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sooo

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I asked the Yi for an objective view of that question, because I don't think 34 is always an instruction to "power down" or to obey every ritual. If it was, we'd still be living in the Dark Ages. Martin Luther disobeyed the conventions of the church of Rome, giving the common people access to the written scripture of the day to decide for themselves. Martin Luther King disobeyed convention through his powerful speeches and civil disobedience. Though misfortune came to these brave souls, it led the way out of the death grip of the church, government and society of their day. English physicist and mathematician Sir Isaac Newton, most famous for his law of gravitation, was instrumental in the scientific revolution of the 17th century, and had to power through the laws of convention, ignoring ritual, defying authorities. It seems every great breakthrough has defied the limits set forth by those who had established the laws, rituals and conventions of their day.

So I presented this in an objective manner to the Yi, asking for an objective and pragmatic reply, which I think is wonderfully thoughtful and worthy of contemplation. 20. 3,6 - 39.
 

Trojina

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One would only go by 34 if one had 34 as an answer.

I know it's obvious but you speak as if 34 were constant advice for all people at all times.....which I know you know it isn't.

I mean of course the advice in the Image won't always be applicable....it would only be applicable if you cast 34 and presumably Martin Luther King didn't....assuming he didn't consult Yi.

Do you ever remember casting 34uc yourself ?
 

Trojina

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However I have no idea what Martin Luther King would have cast. I also take 34 as using power only in the service of what is right, not just what is the established order, although ritual is specified so I'm hazy about that.....One could certainly see the Great Power of 34 in his famous speech or hex 1 or hex 49 or 31...
 
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sooo

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Do you ever remember casting 34uc yourself ?
I image over the course of a few decades, a hundred or so times, at least. If you mean an exact example, not off hand. There were times when I did not power down, so to speak, but powered forward in the face of convention, which is my nature anyway. Many other times I could sense that standing down was a more prudent call. It just depended on how important I felt it was to move forward, which is what I received from Yi's answer: objectively contemplating ones life and the obstructions one is facing.

My question and examples were themselves examples of circumstances. That they did not do an IC reading and received 34uc is irrelevant. That would suggest the meaning of 34 is never relevant unless one did an IC reading, which is pretty ridiculous. The world does not exist in accord with the Yi, the Yi exists in accord with the world.
 

anemos

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Does anyone here ever think/feel/consider that the law or correct convention or ritual could afford to be expanded, that they're too tight, strict or rigid, rather than your power necessarily should shrink to accommodate those platitudes of convention?
Every time I get 34 !!! its not easy to explain it but the feeling is not of shrinking the power but expanding it ; 34 power sometimes feel raw and channeling it gives that sense of expansion. I do feel like wearing tight clothes that leave no space to just breath and the urge is a brutal 49 yet - in my experiences the consequences might not be that nice. For me was important to create inner rituals. I can relate to the reading you share.

So I presented this in an objective manner to the Yi, asking for an objective and pragmatic reply, which I think is wonderfully thoughtful and worthy of contemplation. 20. 3,6 - 39.
h39 is so apt- or this is how I have experience most of the time . Its that point you actually return to your self- see it face-to face and find the balance between advance and retreat. In the example I shared earlier , the urge was not only in my mind, I felt it in my body- needed to throw up ( sorry for the gross example) for me was urgent !!! The person I consulted explain me why I needed to take the slow way and the perils of going fast. I did my research hoping to find another pov , yet everywhere seemed to be that "law". Yes, you feel you have to shrink your power, like in 39 , you feel that borders are closed, this is why i like Yi's 20>39. its a time you reverse but, at the end of the day you do it your own way. You change route , but the goal remains the same and you channel your power in a different manner. Maybe this is from where that feeling of expansion comes from. There is also that sense of greatness, not in the way of self-importance or such, something more simple; sort of acquiring the existing power.

and had to power through the laws of convention, ignoring ritual, defying authorities.
It seems paradoxical, but , imo, I believe its embedded in 34. You question them and go through them be it external or internal.
 
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sooo

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This is exactly how I experience it, and could not have said it better.

I'm sure the examples I used also contemplated, is this really what I should do, is it wise? Is it worth the risk? I also like that you draw attention to ones inner laws and rituals (conscience and ethics) as the deciding factor, as in line 6, as that "decides the choice between advance and retreat," as 20.3 says. Without the possible resistance of 39, there would be no decision necessary.
 

knotxx

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My question and examples were themselves examples of circumstances. That they did not do an IC reading and received 34uc is irrelevant. That would suggest the meaning of 34 is never relevant unless one did an IC reading, which is pretty ridiculous.
As I understood trojan, she was saying not so much that it wasn't true for Martin Luther because he didn't cast a reading, but because it isn't always true, period. That's why I'm confused by your examples, as well. There are 64 hexagrams and a zillion changing lines. Sometimes the yi shows you the idea "hold up, stop, pressing on doggedly will do no good." (39uc, for example). Sometime yi shows you the idea "it's GREEN LIGHTS ALL THE WAY BABY" (35.3, for example, or 42.2). I guess I don't get why you're saying that 34's caution that "this is a time to use great power in a careful, respectful way" means that there is never any OTHER way to use great power. There are lots of other ways, as shown in other hexagrams and other lines.
 
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sooo

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As I understood trojan, she was saying not so much that it wasn't true for Martin Luther because he didn't cast a reading, but because it isn't always true, period. That's why I'm confused by your examples, as well. There are 64 hexagrams and a zillion changing lines. Sometimes the yi shows you the idea "hold up, stop, pressing on doggedly will do no good." (39uc, for example). Sometime yi shows you the idea "it's GREEN LIGHTS ALL THE WAY BABY" (35.3, for example, or 42.2). I guess I don't get why you're saying that 34's caution that "this is a time to use great power in a careful, respectful way" means that there is never any OTHER way to use great power. There are lots of other ways, as shown in other hexagrams and other lines.
I never said it was always true. I also never said there's only one way to use great power. I gave examples of someone being faced with deciding whether to enlarge the field or squeeze pacifically into it. It's often how I feel when receiving 34uc. I also never said "34's caution that "this is a time to use great power in a careful, respectful way" means that there is never any OTHER way to use great power." I was saying quite the opposite, that there's a choice, to go forward or to stand down, and that sometimes it's worth defying convention, and sometimes it's not. I've no idea where you're getting your quotes.

I wasn't objecting to anything but the argument that natural circumstances can not be likened to a hexagram unless someone received it in a reading. Yes, they may have gotten other readings as well, but I focused on the dynamics of 34 specifically, as examples, that's all. Nothing to get hung about.
 

anemos

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I'm sure the examples I used also contemplated, is this really what I should do, is it wise? Is it worth the risk?
I think yes, they may have follow their own "inner" rituals. That brings in mind Campbell's words about the left-hand path and the right hand path; The examples you mention could be good candidates for being left-handed which i see it more as following their own way and as a side effect going against the "established order". However, the line divides those two path is not clear cut, imo; there is a lot of interplay happens.

Have been reading a bit about creativity and encounter a list of "prerequisites" -derived from a study-that seem to be in present in the life of famous creative people and one of them is "being the right time in the right place". Although this is not a clear 34 message and by that i mean there are other hexes present it in a more "loud" way , I see an association with 34 too.

Trojina : One could certainly see the Great Power of 34 in his famous speech or hex 1 or hex 49 or 31...
...and the list goes one ;)

I hope its not very OT, but reporting here any experience I remember re Unchanging , i try to avoid bringing other hexes into the discussion but while I contemplate my readings , its inevitable not to think of another hexes for fine-tuning the small details , to understand or apply the advise.
 

knotxx

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I don't think 34 is always an instruction to "power down" or to obey every ritual. If it was, we'd still be living in the Dark Ages.
This is what I was responding to, and the bit that confused me. Why would be still be living in the Dark Ages, unless you think somehow the yi says 34 is applicable to every situation ever?
 
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sooo

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Well, I agree with the confused part. Seems pretty clear to me. The context of this thread is 34, as was the context of my examples.

But don't let it throw you. If you don't get it, forget it. This is tiresome.
 

rosada

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I once got 34 when I asked the I Ching what was the significance of a planet in an astrological chart being "stationary".
First I'll explain a bit what that term means..
As planets revolve around the sun they occasionally appear to be moving backwards, "retrograde", because of their position relative to the earth. (It's like when one car is going faster than the one in the lane next to it on the freeway. Although they are both heading in the same direction the slower one appears to be backing up.) Planets that are retrograde portend very different results from planets that are "direct." For example. Mercury is the planet associated with mental activities and when it is direct, that is, when it appears to be moving forward, mental activities are expected to run smoothly but when Mercury is retrograde then mental activities are predicted to be prone to mistakes, as if the mind was not functioning in a straight forward manner.

When the planet is changing direction from direct to retrograde or from retrograde to direct it is said to be "stationary" - that is, it appears to be standing still.

Reading what has been said here about 33. Retreat being followed by 34. Stand Your Ground fits in nicely as an interpretation of a planet going from Retrograde to Stationary and also because 35. Progress would then fit the idea of a planet next going Direct.

In astrological terms a planet that is stationary is considered to be powerful - again fitting in with the meaning of 34.

Rosada
 

Trojina

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As I am familiar with astrology that is a particularly illuminating example for me. A 'stationary' planet is 'standing it's ground'.



andrea


I'd been hacking and rasping with a nasty cold for over a week. I'd missed two of my usual yoga classes. As I was starting to feel a little better, I asked whether I should go to a class that evening, and got 34 unchanging. I took it as yes, of course. (And I'm glad I went.)
I recall getting 34uc in similar situations and at the time not knowing quite what to make of it. In hindsight I see it as you did...like "you can hold your own, you can maintain your strength".
 

anemos

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When the planet is changing direction from direct to retrograde or from retrograde to direct it is said to be "stationary" - that is, it appears to be standing still.
Like that "as if we are still"
 

Tohpol

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In astrological terms a planet that is stationary is considered to be powerful - again fitting in with the meaning of 34.
Yes, 34 is very applicable in this context. And even more so when that power starts to "accumulate".

Recall the Grand Cross of April - June where each of the planets, Jupiter, Mars, Uranus and Pluto were in hard aspect (square and opposition) to one another in the signs of Cancer, Aries, Libra and Capricorn.

A Grand Cross is when planets are positioned at intervals of roughly 90-degrees with two oppositions inside the four planet configuration. Since they are square to each other, this is where you could allude to the power of 34 building that strength like a circuit board glowing hotter and hotter; where energy is concentrated or focused due to this unique "stationary" positioning. Yet an enormous amount of activity is created between this phase of alignment. It's particularly prone to explosive expressions of that energy if it used incorrectly, but if that 34 energy can be managed correctly...great power can birth all kinds of new ways to move forward. That creative tension and accumulation of great power can equally apply to inner development and the idea of maintaining Presence.

Still, this may be one reason why we have had such a chaotic and dangerous 2014!
 

Liselle

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I once got 34 when I asked the I Ching what was the significance of a planet in an astrological chart being "stationary".
I absolutely love this example, and also how you explained the 33-34-35 sequence in those terms. Thank you!

One thing I'm letting myself get confused about (although I feel a bit silly mentioning it, and I'm saying "letting myself get confused" on purpose) is when 34 is characterized as standing one's ground or even being stationary, what is the difference between 34 and 52? I think I know the difference, but I'm having trouble actually articulating it. (I think my confusion is because prior to this thread, I never once considered the "standing your ground, holding your own" aspect of 34. 34 to me always just meant the outward expression of power - aggression, displays of strength, and so forth. Now I'm learning there's more to it - which probably explains the 34uc readings I didn't understand when I got them, lol.)

Does 34 emphasize the power in the stillness, standing one's ground in an active way? I never thought of 52 as weak, really...would "passive" be a better term for 52? Or is 34 in this sense merely the outward appearance of standing still, while having in reality a very powerful inner essence, and then 52 would be inner stillness as well as outer?

Would a compressed spring be 34, and a sprung spring 52?

---------------------------

A 34uc reading I just now got :D:

I'm reading online instructions on how to do something that's quite involved. In the past, I'd made notes for myself about it, which I also have in front of me. I got to a topic heading in the online instructions, and before reading further, I went to my own notes - and found none. I was sure I had some! "Where are they?" I asked Yi. Yi answered with 34uc.

I puzzled over that for a couple minutes, and then went back to the online manual. When I continued reading, I discovered that it did a really nice job of covering the topic - it's almost certainly strong enough on its own, without any other notes. (I'm still concerned about mysterious holes in my notes, but maybe I shouldn't be.)
 

rosada

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Wow, I just begin to respond to your post when my computer ran out of juice. I went into the other room to get the cord and it wasn't there, it was back right where I had been sitting ready to be of use. Another example of 34 energy meaning Stand Your Ground!

Anyway, as to the differences between 34 and 52.
let's say Andrea got 52 instead of 34 when she asked about going to her yoga class after being ill. 34 suggested to her that she was strong and needn't change her routine of going to yoga, so she went and had no relapse. If she had gotten 52 on the other hand I would have interpreted that to mean stay home, don't go anywhere.

Here are a couple of examples of times I got 34 and 52. I got them with change lines but I think they illustrate the differences of 34 and 52
A couple of years ago we moved my mother out of one senior residence and into a different one. After getting all her bags and stuff into the room but before she had even a chance to get acclimated to the new surroundings I suggested we go for a walk. Off we went and she had a fall picking up a kleenex and had to spend the night in the hospital. I asked the I Ching for a comment and received 34.1, which talks about misfortune when one is impatient to start a new venture. After 33. Retreating from the old residence I should have made sure my mother 34. Stabilized before rushing to 35. Progress and explore the neighborhood. So I see 34 as meaning something like "Stabilize, Get clear where you are right now."

I received 52.6 Keeping Still last week when I was considering making a purchase. "Noble hearted keeping still - Wilhelm" didn't make sense to me so I ignored the advice and made a long drive out of the woods and into town only to discover the shop was closed while the owner was off on vacation. (Vacation = "noble hearted keeping still" perhaps?)

So 34 could perhaps be said to be a feeling of keeping still but with a sense of openness, in preparation to move where as 52 is keeping still has a feeling of all the doors being shut.

Rosada
 
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Trojina

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Also it is helpful to compare the trigrams of both hexagrams.

34 is thunder over heaven
52 is mountain over mountain

Even if you are hazy about trigrams if you shut your eyes and imagine, mountain over mountain feels still in a whole different way to 34 standing ground, thunder over heaven. Thunder is awake, present ! Mountain is unmovable, unaffected.

Also standing one's ground is active. Even to physically stand takes energy. To hold a space takes energy. In the illness example that was given a few posts back, the body was holding it's own but having to actively do that. You occupy the space, you are positively there. 52 is there in a different way as Rosada describes.
 

Liselle

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Thank you both. That definitely helps :).

Also it is helpful to compare the trigrams of both hexagrams.

34 is thunder over heaven
52 is mountain over mountain
Do the trigrams of 34 mean stillness (in the 34 way) because the thunder is ABOVE heaven - that is, hasn't gone THROUGH heaven and come out the other side? It's still sort of incipient, in potential?

The other way around - heaven over thunder, or, if you will, thunder that has gone through heaven, is hexagram 25. Hmm. I can sort of see that, from the Image of 25. Thunder above heaven (34) could be seen as requiring active effort to remain like that. Thunder coming down through heaven happens naturally; it's a discharge of energy (25). But it takes active involvement to keep the thunder above heaven, hanging there in a still, non-moving state (34).

Thnking out loud there...is that close to what you meant with the trigrams?

"Below heaven, thunder moves. All things interact Without Entanglement. The ancient kings, with abundant growth in accord with the seasons, nourished the ten thousand things." (Hexagram 25 Image from Hilary's book)
 

Trojina

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Mmmm no I wasn't thinking in those terms, ....I was just suggesting experimenting with sensory impressions of trigrams. I'm not talking about thinking at all here but imagining with your senses. You can imagine how rain on your skin feels different to sun ? If you close your eyes and visualise a mountain you can feel it's solid stillness. Compare that to the power of the heaven trigram, with thunder...feels different. Forget words and feel the senses to get another impression of how hexagrams feel.

59 is always good to do this with I find. Wind over water. If you imagine the wind over water, making it evaporate and disperse you can get the feel of 59 with no need for verbal analysis.

It's just another way to know a hexagram......but no I can't explain it more than that but there is likely trigram discussions elsewhere. Some people think in trigram terms a lot. I tend to forget them but they can be so useful for getting to the feel of a hexagram. That's all I use trigrams for....I don't think much about them analytically. Others differ. So you can use trigrams in interpretation in which ever way interests you. I am quite kinaesthetic ...I can imagine with the sense of touch, the tactile sense. You may use other senses to get inside the trigrams.

Some have made trigrams and hexagrams into great structures in their head and climbed into them.. I think I recall Hilary doing that. Climbing inside a hexagram to see what it feels like.
 

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I recently had a contradictory experience with 34UC. I normally take it as: you are being too pushy, control yourself, delegate etc... But in this instance, it's about being more present.

I am self employed, but I work on contract for various clients. I tend to wait for them to get in touch - a bit of fatalism, a bit of pride, a bit of shyness, not wanting to be too pushy. One company for which I did a lot of work in the past have not contacted me for work for quite awhile, although we are on friendly terms, I enjoy working with them, and know it's mutual. I assumed they just had no need for help, until by chance found out they were in fact extremely busy! They just were not calling me :(

This year, I would like to stop working for another company which I find exploitative and unfriendly, and increase my work flow from the client I enjoy working with - assuming they actually need my services. I asked Yi: what are my prospects for working more often with this client this year? And got 34UC.

I gave it some thought, and realised that I had been very passively waiting for them to call, giving the impression I wanted to be an occasional resource for "special projects" that require experience, rather than someone they could call on regularly. So in this case, I took 34UC as: there is a lot of potential for success in this environment, but don't be proud and don't be a stranger, stand your groundI found out that they had regular team calls with contractors, to keep tabs on availability, and that they have open social activities. Clearly I need to raise my visibility by participating, which by the way, I would actually enjoy doing because I like these people! So, being there

- is being "correct" - applying energy in a direction which is nurturing on all levels, not just for income
- Its not being pushy: it's following an existing format.
- But it's not holding back either: it's about standing my ground, showing commitment

There should be good fortune in that behaviour- It's common sense:). The subtleties of 34UC...
 
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