Clarity,
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While the yin lines are representatives of female in the I Ching, all the unpleasant characteristics are attributed to them. The most heard are "inferior", "weak". Hexagrams such as 23 & 44 are regarded as bad auspice because "the in/yins rule over the male". And 64 shows being out of place because the yins aren't in second place.
I've read this in many answers on the forum, so many that I can't say exactly when and by whom. I don't visit DeKorne's website since a long time- I guess since I downloaded Hilary's Resonance Journal (the trial version) with the translations you mention.There's none of this nonsense language in Hilary's book, in LiSe's work or in Bradford's work. The problem might be you are getting it all off de Korne's website rather than looking at more modern understandings?
While the yin lines are representatives of female in the I Ching, all the unpleasant characteristics are attributed to them. The most heard are "inferior", "weak". Hexagrams such as 23 & 44 are regarded as bad auspice because "the in/yins rule over the male".
While the yin lines are representatives of female in the I Ching, all the unpleasant characteristics are attributed to them. The most heard are "inferior", "weak". Hexagrams such as 23 & 44 are regarded as bad auspice because "the in/yins rule over the male". And 64 shows being out of place because the yins aren't in second place.
That's because females have been encouraged to be always immobile, receptive and reactive instead of active that, in this forum, we see so many women who can't release themselves from pathetic relationships or find a way to end their N year-old obsession over an unworthy male.I think what's happened is, as with every other philosophy/religion etc is misogyny has crept in and been written up to indicate the 'natural order' - is females should follow males. We know that isn't true. We know there is no good reason as human females to follow men. They are after all no more insightful, clever or worthy of following than women.
It's not clear to you because you used the word 'principle' but have missed the whole point of the word. A woman is not 'the female principle' a male is not the 'the male principle'. A 'principle' is not a human being, it's in Yi half of the primal powers in the universe. So no the I Ching does not equate hexagram to a woman.It's more than clear to me that women aren't Yin & men aren't Yan in real life, neither I see the Yin as the female and the Yang as the male. But the I Ching does (the 2nd hexagram which is considered the female principle is all Yin).
That could be somewhat of an over simplification. Women aren't locked in these kinds of relationships only because they have been taught to be immobile. There can be women who are highly successful in their work, who are anything but immobile, who still can find themselves obsessed with someone who doesn't return their passion at all. There's many factors at play in this, some I think are rooted in biology, some are more psychological.That's because females have been encouraged to be always immobile, receptive and reactive instead of active that, in this forum, we see so many women who can't release themselves from pathetic relationships or find a way to end their N year-old obsession on an unworthy male.
I didn't say women are female principleIt's not clear to you because you used the word 'principle' but have missed the whole point of the word. A woman is not 'the female principle' a male is not the 'the male principle'. A 'principle' is not a human being, it's in Yi half of the primal powers in the universe. So no the I Ching does not equate hexagram to a woman.
I talk about passivity towards men and in relationships, not in other areas of life.There can be women who are highly successful in their work, who are anything but immobile,
A perfect example for female passivity and waiting for an action to react instead of deciding what to do themselves: what does he think? what will he do? I don't think that's inherent or biological.Women in SR mainly want to know what 'he' thinks or what 'he' will do next.
And a perfect example for male activity and making things done.Men generally just don't ask that kind of question. I notice men when they ask about romance in SR are far more along the lines of 'how can I make her like me' or 'how can I do xyz with her'.
It's toxic. It most change. We are already seeing its destructive effects. That's where the objectification of females and the pattern of controlling man- submissive woman stems from, which is the root of abusive relationships.It's almost like they see her as this thing to change or to mould where she seeks to be whatever he would mould her to In that regard they fall quite well into the yin/yang categories I guess.
I didn't say women are female principle
You said here it is clear to you women aren't yin and men aren't yang but then you say in the second sentence the I Ching does see it that way. That is I read it as you know women aren't pure yin but the I Ching thinks they are. I'm disagreeing with that, with your second sentence.It's more than clear to me that women aren't Yin & men aren't Yan in real life, neither I see the Yin as the female and the Yang as the male. But the I Ching does (the 2nd hexagram which is considered the female principle is all Yin).
'Already' how do you mean already it's been going on for millenia. You aren't telling me anything new here, I was doing modules in feminist studies at uni 30 years ago, it's not new stuff, it doesn't need explaining to me, I've lived through it and it's ramifications myself. But it really isn't as simple as that, there's a lot more strands and perspectives to think through.It's toxic. It most change. We are already seeing its destructive effects. That's where the objectification of females and the pattern of controlling man- submissive woman stems from, which is the root of abusive relationships.
Neither of us know what is biological or what isn't. When I referred to it hereP.S: If you don't agree with me on what's inherent/biological or not, that's OK. I just expressed how I've perceived the world as long as I've known myself.
I meant women may biologically have the urge to seek continuity in relationships more, are more loyal because they have children and they need someone around. You can't just wipe out the biological necessities in evolution because they are no longer desirable traits. Humans don't control that, we are still biologically reacting to unpleasant emails like there was a lion in front of us, we sweat, we need the loo...all that. We are still animals in many ways and we have their reactions. It's therefore not hard to realise women may be primed to seek out security more for the sake of their offspring's survival. In modern day that can translate that a women can't let go of an ex, she's primed perhaps to be more loyal so why would she be expected just to 'move on'.That could be somewhat of an over simplification. Women aren't locked in these kinds of relationships only because they have been taught to be immobile. There can be women who are highly successful in their work, who are anything but immobile, who still can find themselves obsessed with someone who doesn't return their passion at all. There's many factors at play in this, some I think are rooted in biology, some are more psychological.
Actually I'm not sure about this statement so much anymore, I mean about objectification because women seem to be doing a bloody good job of objectifying themselves all over the internet and all over media platforms. Look at tiktok, countless women and girls thrusting their tits and everything else at the camera and no one is pushing them to do it. Some may be victims for sure but many really really aren't. They want attention and admiration and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I mean I just can't swallow that each and every one of them gathering 'likes' and comments and all that are actually victims of objectification.That's where the objectification of females and the pattern of controlling man- submissive woman stems from, which is the root of abusive relationships.
Short answer: because it works and answers us in ways nothing else can, and if we appreciate that we have to try to ignore the rest.As a female, why should I keep on using & respecting a system with such a degrading view on me?
hilary said:It can also represent a connection to underlying truth – hence Yi’s not infrequent use of this hexagram to represent itself.
Yes.Indeed one reason we consult is to measure how much yin or yang we need to work with in relation to our question.
Hi Mary:I think it's a misunderstanding as old as the I Ching that Yin is weak, dark, feminine etc. There is a chapter in Geoffrey Redmond and Tze-Ki Hon's 'Teaching the I Ching', Oxford University Press, 2014: Ch. 3, Women in the Yijing, which I will not tell how to understand but recommend concerning this to read.
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Add.: On pg. 72 in this PDF
... On this point, it should be noted that some inscriptions explicitly express a wish to have both male and female descendants. Such statements make one reconsider whether the ubiquitous address to zi zi sun sun 子子孫孫 in bronze inscriptions is correctly understood as referring exclusively to male “sons and grandsons,” but not to children of both sexes.
Evidently, without having enough daughters, a lineage had less potential for constructing social and political networks. Therefore, valuing only sons and neglecting daughters would signify only political blindness. Wishes of abundant progeny, especially when placed on dowry presents commissioned by a bride’s father or brother, very likely concerned the offspring of both sexes ...
[page 33]
_____________________
子 zi3 son / child / seed / egg / small thing / 1st earthly branch: 11 p.m.-1 a.m., midnight, 11th solar month (7th December to 5th January), year of the Rat / Viscount, fourth of five orders of nobility ...
孫 sun1 grandson / descendant
Ya. If the Song dynasty people had a misogynistic world view, that's what they would find in the Yi. If you have a different view, you'll find something different. It's a mirror.In those times the concept itself of YIN-YANG forces did not yet exist and most likely YIN means the shady side of a mountain and YANG the sunny side. Nor was the role of women so devalued it was as the political organization evolved towards the Empire and philosophy towards the post-Confucian stages.
Early Western Zhou ideology had a certain EGALITARIAN flavor with a stated preference for a pedagogy of TOLERANCE, ENJOYMENT, and LOVE as opposed to the pedagogy of CRUELTY, SUFFERING, and HATRED, whose preference they attributed to the Shang.
Hi Irfan:Ya. If the Song dynasty people had a misogynistic world view, that's what they would find in the Yi. If you have a different view, you'll find something different. It's a mirror.
Daji certainly found her place in history. If you go to YouTube and do a search, you'll see hundreds of clips of a beautiful but evil looking ("foxy"?) woman, laughing and cackling at other people's misery as she transforms her shape. She certainly lives on in the Chinese imagination!Of course that even the Zhou had some misogynistic prejudices. If not why they said that the favorite of the last Shang ruler was but an evil fox spirit? But that's another story.
Stereotypes exist for a reason but the reasons don't need to be permanent/inherent.Stereotypes exist for reasons, the problem is misusing them to denigrate people.
Useful informationIn those times the concept itself of YIN-YANG forces did not yet exist and most likely YIN meant the SHADY side of a mountain and YANG the SUNNY side.
Very true. Stereotypes evolve just like everything else, good point.Stereotypes exist for a reason but the reasons don't need to be permanent/inherent.
Hi Mary:Useful information
P.S: I find attributing "gentleness" to one gender and "aggressiveness" to the other utterly dangerous, as it justifies the cruelties of the latter, while regards any forceful reaction to the cruelty from the former to be out of character; so practically, the gentle would have to remain always the aggressive's victim.
So, all of a sudden, the powerful woman becomes the "inferior thing that seems so harmless and inviting," a symbolic representation of the inferior man.This hexagram indicates a situation in which the principle of darkness, after having been eliminated, furtively and unexpectedly obtrudes again from within and below. Of its own accord the female principle comes to meet the male. It is an unfavorable and dangerous situation, and we must understand and promptly prevent the possible consequences ....
The rise of the inferior element is pictured here in the image of a bold girl who lightly surrenders herself and thus seizes power. This would not be possible if the strong and light-giving element had not in turn come halfway. The inferior thing seems so harmless and inviting that a man delights in it; it looks so small and weak that he imagines he may dally with it and come to no harm.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).