i-ching and other forms of divination

[forumer3]

I am very new to this stuff, and I never tried any of it before. A short while ago, I was watching the history Channel and heard about i-Ching. I immediately got interested and decided to buy the book. I went to amazon.com to do my search and I cant find what I need... Can someone help me please?

Apparently the book itself is not enough.. I need the coins.. or yarrow sticks? There are so many books, I don't know which one to buy. I'd like to buy everything I need so I can use the book for divination. I saw a few kits that have coins or sticks included, but those are quite expensive... Do I absolutely have to spend a hundred dollars to get my feet wet?

Also, I understand these things need to be taken with a grain of salt, but when it comes to anything mystical, I find this stuff fascinating, and there is that part of me that wants to believe that it's all true, and it all works. In your experience, did any predictions made through this book turn out to be correct? How often?

Can you recommend other forms of divination that seemed to be correct with predictions in your experience that I can try aside from the i-Ching?

Thanks very much.

 

[lloyd]

Hi forumer3
The best thing to have is a standard I Ching that has as much authentic Taoist material in it as possible. The Lynn translation (see link A below) would be your best choice. It combines a 2000 year old I Ching text with references to texts by two other great Taoist interpreters, so you actually get three I Chings in one. You may later like Karcher (for instance; Jungian angles) but then the Lynn is still a useful reference.
To be sure, if your intentions are straight, any form of stalks or coins will do. I go with the coins. You can read about all this and more on Steve's pages. I can think of no better site for more information; scan it as much as possible as you go along.
Enjoy

 

[elvis]

Hi forumer3
The best thing to have is a standard I Ching that has as much authentic Taoist material in it as possible. .....

The truth is you DONT need all of that material to get the I Ching to work for you but it is useful to understand the origins of the material and so cover the focus on a 10th century BC mindset developed into a refined taoist focus by the 10th century AD.

Since then we have 11 centuries of scientific work on neurosciences, psychology, cognitive science, anthropology etc all of which contribute to understanding what is behind the invention of the I Ching and the ability to 'predict' outcomes. As such we can even get the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself - and so get the details from the horse's mouth rather than all of those jockeys over the centuries! ;-)

 

[lloyd]

we can even get the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself

 

[elvis]

The I Ching as a Language

Take your time getting through this - it will be of value once you 'get it':

Through the analysis of how we, as a species, derive meaning it has become possible to identify the I Ching as a form of language - a "language of the vague". It is derived from what we call 'mythic thinking' where thought is in the form of images etc and is grounded in symmetry. 'Directed thinking' is where we think using words.

For more on these distinctions see such works as that of Jung "Two Kinds of Thinking" or my own work covering anti-symmetric thinking, symmetric thinking, and asymmetric thinking and overall meaning derivation (Integration, Differentiation, and Meaning - IDM (http://www.emotionaliching.com/AbstractD.html ))

The possible expressions of meaning is bottom-up with lots of degrees of freedom. Regulation of such is top-down where such limits the degrees of freedom. Included in this process are logic operators that allow for the dynamics of syntax and so rules of grammar etc in all languages.

We can see this at work in the I Ching where we can get the I Ching to describe details of each class of meaning through analogies to all of the other hexagrams.

Thus, if a hexagram represents a context, we can use methods that are like the notes of music placed in a key or the expression of genes in a context (their phenotype as compared to the genotype) - the qualities of each hexagram are expressed in any context but distorted by that context, UNLESS the hexagram is in its own context.

Thus we can identify, for example., how a hexagram expresses 'beginnings' or 'endings' or 'infrastructure' or 'motivation' etc etc (all the possible meanings of hexagrams) thus we can get a parts list of each hexagram and so get details of a hexagram not obvious in traditional material.

The initial work on this covered findings with playing with the top and bottom lines of a hexagram where 'flipping' those lines (and so yin into yang or yang into yin) led to a hexagram that , with its meaning taken generically, described the mud or clay or skeletal form of the hexagram under question. For example, with hexagram 01, flip top and bottom gives us hexagram 28. Hexagram 28 covers, generically, too much yang, excess. As such this is a good, vague, description of the infrastructure, skeletal form, of hexagram 01.

We then find that what this pattern reflects is in fact the XORing of hexagram 27 (yang top, yang bottom, all else yin) with any hexagram (see examples in the EIC work - or the earlier page http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/introXOR.html ) - IN other words we are seeing the expression of the qualities of hexagram 27 through a context described by some other hexagram and, as such, how that context hexagram expresses 'quality control in beginnings' - aka infrastructure issues.

Further work shows us that we can XOR ALL hexagrams with each hexagram and derive a spectrum of meanings for the particular hexagram under consideration - this pattern covers parts analysis of a whole. The I Ching language can describe both such that a hexagram is a whole (like a key) and also a part (like a note then placed in the key and distorted in its expression)

In the Emotional I Ching work the table of 64 expressions are listed for each hexagram - e.g. for hex 01 see the table in http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx111111.html

Thus, each CLASS of meaning (hexagram) can be analysed in finer means, and potentially into an infinite regression, through use of XORing. We see here the foundations of languages and the use of recursion (as such we work with the binary sequence of the I Ching, not the traditional sequence).

For more on this try getting through the introduction to the Emotional I Ching book - a sample is available at the EIC website (http://www.emotionaliching.com) and it is only 50 pages (the book is 510 pages) in .pdf format.

Note that this emergence of language is a product of recursion and the binary sequence of the I Ching where the natural recursion is of yang/yin and hexagrams built bottom-to-top, general-to-particular from pure yin (000000) to pure yang (111111). Thus this language property is nothing to do with the I Ching, it is to do with recursion such that recurse yang/yin and out will pop this feature.

 

[lloyd]

anti-symmetric thinking, symmetric thinking, and asymmetric thinking and overall meaning derivation

Fine ... but eh ... I think I'll just try and think straight. Meanwhile forumer3 has a choice.
Thanks

 

[elvis]

Fine ... but eh ... I think I'll just try and think straight.

...which means asymmetry and the use of consciousness in deriving specialist, directed, language and so thought.

Asymmetry is an emergent element and comes out of mediation demands when dealing with parts (anti-symmetry, XOR, exclusive OR) and wholes (symmetry, EQV (equivalences)). the I Ching itself is a product of such where the classes of meanings allow us to form sequences and create specialist languages using images to then refine such using words.

'straight' thinking as such covers a serial focus as compared to holistic, immediate, thinking that is parallel. Our consciousness is not 'parallel' in that it actually interferes with parallel processes (try watching your feet as you run up stairs!). The focus of consciousness is on mediation and covers emergences - as the hexagrams of the I Ching emerge from the recursion of yang/yin and so bring out the 'middle' realm of that dichotomy.

Get to the level of six loops in the recursion and the hexagrams take on the form of a language and allow the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself.

 

[lloyd]

Sorry Elvis, I think more along lines of poetry:

"I saw it and thought it new
in that short moment
that makes all symbols lucky
before we read them rightly"
Louise Bogan

 

[bradford]

Hi forumer3
The best thing to have is a standard I Ching that has as much authentic Taoist material in it as possible.

I agree with you on the Lynn translation, but why should a Yijing have Daoist material?
The Yi is not a Daoist text. It's many centuries older than Daoism and to read Daoism into it distorts it.

 

[lloyd]

Hi Bradford. You make it sound as if there are clear cut lines between the two, in the way western scholars likes these kind of lines. True, the Wings were added 200 BC, but does that mean that before that time oracle users and Daoist were looking in opposite directions?
Meanwhile, what solid evidence do we have of what was there "many centuries" before Wang Bi? How valid is this material for modern use?
I do not deny the existence of Zhouyi, Yijing and the western scholarship elvis bangs on the table, and am interested in all. But why "distortion", or as elvis would have it "the truth"? Newcomers should be informed, not be torn between those who have made hobby horses of any school or direction.

 

[bradford]

I think that the word Dao was actually more meaningful
where it was used in the Zhouyi, as a simple metaphor
of a path or way. In Daoist hands it gets really nebulous.
These are the four places it occurs (my own translation):


09.1, 1st 9
Returning to one's own path
How is this an error?
Promising

10.2, 9 2nd
Treading the path which is level and easy
The obscure one's persistence is promising

17.4, 9 4th
Following to achieve success
Persistence has pitfalls
Being truly on the path,
Using clarity,
Where is the error?

24.0, Returning
Fulfillment
Exit and enter without anxiety
Companions arrive without fail
Turning around and returning is the way
The seventh day brings return
Worthwhile to have somewhere to go

 

[lloyd]

Hi Bradford
Nice, with the appeal and depth of brief poetry that I can appreciate all the more for having read some Chinese classics. Still, the lines as you put them are often but a stone's throw from keywords to be found in Wang Bi.
Anyway. All of it may spring from Odes that dwell in the archives of verbal oblivion; and maybe elvis was born before his time. I look at the evolution of I Ching as the increasing verbalization of symbols and signs. For this I read Calasso, who's Ka/Kasch books are jewels of research into lost civilizations and mankind's "media" communications, up to today.
There is no problem with plugging in somewhere along the line of this verbalization and telling newcomers to take the Lynn together with Richard Smith and Steve's site strikes me as a nice beginning.

 

[bradford]

Hi Lloyd-
I think you have a lot more admiration for the corpus of Wang Bi's work than I do.
My unequivocal admiration for the man himself includes the fact that he died at the age of 24, and never really had time to mature as a man or as a philosopher. He couldn't collect the life experience that understanding the Zhouyi requires. Because of this I don't think he got all that close to the depths of the Zhouyi. In part, he let himself get distracted by his belief in the Wings and many of its specious algorithms, and it's retroactive insertion of Yinyang Jia ideas backwards into the Zhouyi. The same thing happened to Laozi and Zhuangzi with the invention of Daoism. The Zhouyi had nothing to do with Daoism's Yin and Yang, and Laozi only mentions them once as part of a threesome. Wang Bi also, using his own image, thought too quickly that he got the meaning of the texts and so too soon dismissed the images, and thought too soon that he got the images of the Yi and so too soon dismissed the words. Consequently he missed a whole lot of things that were staring him right in the face.

 

[lloyd]

There is no problem with plugging in somewhere along the line of this verbalization and telling newcomers to take the Lynn, together with Richard Smith and Steve's site, strikes me as a nice beginning.

I adapted the above a bit to make my point, in the line of this thread. I hear what you say, get your sense of reasoning, and see little ground to elaborate ...

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Bradford. You make it sound as if there are clear cut lines between the two, in the way western scholars likes these kind of lines.

If I may, yes there is a clear cut division between the two, albeit a temporal one more than a substance one. Bradford is correct, the Zhouyi preceded Daoism, as the concept is known in our days, by many centuries. What existed before Laozi was, basically, animism, shamanism and dualistic thought (also many centuries before the Yin/Yang School was conceived and structured). This is what he refers to. He isn't denying the thought system but correcting the sequence of events. The Zhouyi, and divination systems that preceded it, grandfathered Daoism, and most every other classifiable Chinese system of thought and doctrine we have received in writing. It is of course easier to tag a "Daoist" name to many of those thoughts but incorrect from a time-line perspective.

 

[lloyd]

Hi Sparhawk
Thanx for spelling it all out. Meanwhile, in the light of just trying to give forumer3 some general advice I now rest my case

 

[bradford]

Can you recommend other forms of divination that seemed to be correct with predictions in your experience that I can try aside from the i-Ching?
.

Oh yeah, back to the topic. I like the Tarot a lot, and there is no better forum for that than Aeclectic Tarot: http://www.tarotforum.net/
The archives are huge so allow some time to peruse them. Somebody has asked the questions about how to get started.
Like with the Yi, you don't want to start with any less than three reputable books, not fluffy beginner books.
Astrology is really interesting and useful as a symbolic language, for training the mind, but it presupposes a world view that I personally think is silly.

 

[bamboo]

Forumer....if you are still here and not hopelessly confused....you only need 3 pennies and a book...no need to spend anywhere near what you think. Try The I Ching Made Easy by Sorrell. The Sorrells say to use 6 coins and they tell you how, but three coins is a little more inclusive.
this beginner book i mention will not screw up your understandings, because it is good as a primer translation and it will get you started.

and yes, the Yi is uncannily accurate and helpful and predictive to the degree that it assesses your present movement. The responses are not really to be taken with a grain of salt at all, they are always telling you something of truth....sometimes you need to reflect upon what is being said and then reflect upon how you feel it relates to your question.

if you like the experience, there is always time to decide to invest in a book that will deepen your understanding, some good ones only cost in the 30 dollar range, maybe less.

Some people will suggest buying texts that are more authentic translations, but if you buy a book that sounds obtuse to you,which it may well, it can dishearten you..and then you will end up buying an easier to read book, anyway. The Sorrells book doesnt take you way off base, it just speaks in a language anyone can understand.

 

[bradford]

In addition to what Bamboo said, maybe the simplest and clearest introduction
is right here at Clarity: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/
Hilary has put together a free beginner's course

 

[peterg]

Tao

I think that the word Dao was actually more meaningful
where it was used in the Zhouyi, as a simple metaphor
of a path or way. In Daoist hands it gets really nebulous.
These are the four places it occurs (my own translation):


09.1, 1st 9
Returning to one's own path
How is this an error?
Promising

10.2, 9 2nd
Treading the path which is level and easy
The obscure one's persistence is promising

17.4, 9 4th
Following to achieve success
Persistence has pitfalls
Being truly on the path,
Using clarity,
Where is the error?

24.0, Returning
Fulfillment
Exit and enter without anxiety
Companions arrive without fail
Turning around and returning is the way
The seventh day brings return
Worthwhile to have somewhere to go

Brian Cleeve, who wrote an interesting trilogy of spiritual works c.1980, thought that the original Tao was the course of the stars on their way back to God.
Taoist adepts would listen to the sounds or vibrations emitted by the stars (gods jewels) & feel them with their bodies & thus be drawn along the same path.
And that in so doing they had found the easiest way of all.
He also pointed out that there was now so much noise in the West that following this course was no longer possible.

I second you on Aeclectic.

 

[peterg]

I am very new to this stuff, and I never tried any of it before. A short while ago, I was watching the history Channel and heard about i-Ching. I immediately got interested and decided to buy the book. I went to amazon.com to do my search and I cant find what I need... Can someone help me please?

Apparently the book itself is not enough.. I need the coins.. or yarrow sticks? There are so many books, I don't know which one to buy. I'd like to buy everything I need so I can use the book for divination. I saw a few kits that have coins or sticks included, but those are quite expensive... Do I absolutely have to spend a hundred dollars to get my feet wet?

Also, I understand these things need to be taken with a grain of salt, but when it comes to anything mystical, I find this stuff fascinating, and there is that part of me that wants to believe that it's all true, and it all works. In your experience, did any predictions made through this book turn out to be correct? How often?

Can you recommend other forms of divination that seemed to be correct with predictions in your experience that I can try aside from the i-Ching?

Thanks very much.

Try one of the older translations like Legge or Wilhelm. Or Blofeld for a great introduction.

Look up the 16 token method, its easy. Or use coins to begin with.

Yarrow casting is also easy to master.Try 25 pairs chopsticks at 8c. a pair. Sand them down to a smooth finish. Very easy to work with.

Tarot cards are worth a look.