Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I Ching maps and landscapes
- Thread starter heylise
- Start date
martin
(deceased)
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1971
- Messages
- 2,705
- Reaction score
- 62
Maps, landscapes ..
The master is not a method, the guide is not a map.
The guide "knows the Way", as they say, but the "Way" is not a road.
Even if the land is pathless the guide doesn't get lost. Or if he gets lost, he knows that being lost is part of the Way.
The way that can be expressed is not the eternal Way. The name that can be defined is not the unchanging Name.
Infinite, it cannot be defined.
It goes back to non-existence.
It is called the form of the formless,
and the image of non-existence.
It is called mystery.
Meet it, you cannot see its face,
follow it, you cannot see its back.
The master is not a method, the guide is not a map.
The guide "knows the Way", as they say, but the "Way" is not a road.
Even if the land is pathless the guide doesn't get lost. Or if he gets lost, he knows that being lost is part of the Way.
The way that can be expressed is not the eternal Way. The name that can be defined is not the unchanging Name.
Infinite, it cannot be defined.
It goes back to non-existence.
It is called the form of the formless,
and the image of non-existence.
It is called mystery.
Meet it, you cannot see its face,
follow it, you cannot see its back.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
Answer to Philippa
I love hybrids. When I don?t agree with the map-people is only when they rule out the landscape. The landscape is more or less the fundament, a landscape without a map is still a landscape. I guess I would figure out a way to make a map for it, if there was none, but still the landscape is what supports all the rest.
Some people reject all maps, and in newage movements one sees that a bit more than elsewhere. It may be a reaction against too many maps and too few landscapes in past ages. The ?enlightenment? has not only brought lots of enlightenment, but also a poverty of feelings. Things move back and forth, like a balance, always going either right or left, but never standing still in the center. Thankgod it does not, it would be a sign that the world stopped moving.
When I found maps of YiJing, years ago, structures and diagrams, I was thrilled, it was a way for me to get access to it. But it never satisfied me, it was as if there was always something beyond the next corner, which would tell me how it ?really? was. So I have piles of papers with diagrams and notes.
I knew there was something else, something I could not get grip on, which kept eluding me. I started to write the entire Yijing by hand, exercizing my handwriting until it was like calligraphy. Learning to write the Chinese characters with a brush. Making pictures of the hexagrams (I can draw a bit, but not very good). I tried everything which might make something emerge. I knew it had to be something not-intellectual, but no idea how to reach that.
Then I called a bookshop, where they know everything about Yi, and about any culture or religion or philosophy you can name, if they had something for me. Meaning just a different I Ching, something which might add more space to what I had in translations. One month before a new I Ching had been published, the one by Ritsema and Karcher. A word-by-word translation, giving always the same word for the same character. And there I found the gate for what I was looking for. I realized that this way I could find the real meanings of the Chinese characters. I knew they had a wide range of meanings, more like talking about feelings than about facts, like words in Western languages generally do. And even feelings not as stand-alone sensations, but as a category of them. Like yu, hex.16, can be joyful anticipation, but also cheating, or sightseeing. They have a common base, but manifest in very different ways.
Mm, long detour...
Ok, coming back on track.
Finding those wide meanings gave a ?map? too, but a very different one. Like an animal which can guess where it is, because the landscape ?feels? in a certain way, so it knows in which direction it can find its home back, even when it has not been in that place before.
It does not replace the other maps, but adds a very important dimension. I use the ?intellectual? maps when I cannot nail down a meaning. They can be extremely helpful, especially when you don?t follow them only as ?prescribed?, but adding your own understanding and your own ideas. I guess the ?grunt work? in science also includes a lot of your own ideas. Not changing the facts you find, but choosing which ones are relevant, and which are not. That way grunt work need not at all to be tedious. It is hard work, but it can be quite creative in itself.
The creative part is something which ?happens?. It comes from your character, what you do with the facts you gathered, how you arrange them. Somehow it has to do with love. Making cold facts come to life because you let them inspire you, recognizing how they relate to the big universal patterns underneath every visible manifestation. Having reverence for the big patterns, how they shape life and create beauty. Many Nobel-prize winners have said things, in which one can recognize that kind of love. But it is not restricted to great scientists. My brother is a physicist, and says, when he studied, he recognized God more and more everywhere. Others express it in a very different way. It is what makes science a living thing. Or at least, can do so.
This is ?exploring?, trying to put in words what I feel, it is not the way I think it ?IS?. Maybe tomorrow I would say it totally different. I would love to hear how you or others see it.
LiSe
I love hybrids. When I don?t agree with the map-people is only when they rule out the landscape. The landscape is more or less the fundament, a landscape without a map is still a landscape. I guess I would figure out a way to make a map for it, if there was none, but still the landscape is what supports all the rest.
Some people reject all maps, and in newage movements one sees that a bit more than elsewhere. It may be a reaction against too many maps and too few landscapes in past ages. The ?enlightenment? has not only brought lots of enlightenment, but also a poverty of feelings. Things move back and forth, like a balance, always going either right or left, but never standing still in the center. Thankgod it does not, it would be a sign that the world stopped moving.
When I found maps of YiJing, years ago, structures and diagrams, I was thrilled, it was a way for me to get access to it. But it never satisfied me, it was as if there was always something beyond the next corner, which would tell me how it ?really? was. So I have piles of papers with diagrams and notes.
I knew there was something else, something I could not get grip on, which kept eluding me. I started to write the entire Yijing by hand, exercizing my handwriting until it was like calligraphy. Learning to write the Chinese characters with a brush. Making pictures of the hexagrams (I can draw a bit, but not very good). I tried everything which might make something emerge. I knew it had to be something not-intellectual, but no idea how to reach that.
Then I called a bookshop, where they know everything about Yi, and about any culture or religion or philosophy you can name, if they had something for me. Meaning just a different I Ching, something which might add more space to what I had in translations. One month before a new I Ching had been published, the one by Ritsema and Karcher. A word-by-word translation, giving always the same word for the same character. And there I found the gate for what I was looking for. I realized that this way I could find the real meanings of the Chinese characters. I knew they had a wide range of meanings, more like talking about feelings than about facts, like words in Western languages generally do. And even feelings not as stand-alone sensations, but as a category of them. Like yu, hex.16, can be joyful anticipation, but also cheating, or sightseeing. They have a common base, but manifest in very different ways.
Mm, long detour...
Ok, coming back on track.
Finding those wide meanings gave a ?map? too, but a very different one. Like an animal which can guess where it is, because the landscape ?feels? in a certain way, so it knows in which direction it can find its home back, even when it has not been in that place before.
It does not replace the other maps, but adds a very important dimension. I use the ?intellectual? maps when I cannot nail down a meaning. They can be extremely helpful, especially when you don?t follow them only as ?prescribed?, but adding your own understanding and your own ideas. I guess the ?grunt work? in science also includes a lot of your own ideas. Not changing the facts you find, but choosing which ones are relevant, and which are not. That way grunt work need not at all to be tedious. It is hard work, but it can be quite creative in itself.
The creative part is something which ?happens?. It comes from your character, what you do with the facts you gathered, how you arrange them. Somehow it has to do with love. Making cold facts come to life because you let them inspire you, recognizing how they relate to the big universal patterns underneath every visible manifestation. Having reverence for the big patterns, how they shape life and create beauty. Many Nobel-prize winners have said things, in which one can recognize that kind of love. But it is not restricted to great scientists. My brother is a physicist, and says, when he studied, he recognized God more and more everywhere. Others express it in a very different way. It is what makes science a living thing. Or at least, can do so.
This is ?exploring?, trying to put in words what I feel, it is not the way I think it ?IS?. Maybe tomorrow I would say it totally different. I would love to hear how you or others see it.
LiSe
frank_r
visitor
- Joined
- Jun 20, 1971
- Messages
- 639
- Reaction score
- 32
As worker with patients I'm also looking to combine the TCM aproach with the western aproach. Sometimes thats a real struggle, because there are a lot of sentiments about whats "good" and what's "not good" for the patient. And when you come with the fact that your patients are a sort of a mirror of yourself, and in a sense you'are always treating yourself, than you have both sides on your neck.
But the Yi is learning me how to react, and to listen to the arguments but not let them control me. So I can live in both worlds at the same time.
Thats why I was thrilled to find the combination between the Yi and DNA. Finally a map to study the landscape where both worlds are coming together. A landscape, a place for all emotions there are.
But the Yi is learning me how to react, and to listen to the arguments but not let them control me. So I can live in both worlds at the same time.
Thats why I was thrilled to find the combination between the Yi and DNA. Finally a map to study the landscape where both worlds are coming together. A landscape, a place for all emotions there are.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
When I use structures, maps, it is usually to clarify a meaning of a hexagram or line. I seldom explore them during a reading, but in readings I do use the results I found previously. Seeing the hexagrams as pairs gives much insight. Same with the fanyao, the line in the relating hexagram which correlates with the original changing line (e.g. 1.1 and 44.1). Just to name two.
There is one thing I do very often. After a reading, when the answer made sense, then I go to the structures which have to do with it (or which happen to interest me at that moment) and look if this structure also makes sense, in a similar way as the line or hexagram as I understood it. There is all the time a feedback, from reading (landscape) to structure and from structure to reading.
LiSe
There is one thing I do very often. After a reading, when the answer made sense, then I go to the structures which have to do with it (or which happen to interest me at that moment) and look if this structure also makes sense, in a similar way as the line or hexagram as I understood it. There is all the time a feedback, from reading (landscape) to structure and from structure to reading.
LiSe
Hi LiSe,
The holistic approach is a beautiful approach. I use it whenever I have the time and the mental space to explore. I agree that it can be "grunt" work in the sense that it takes some patience to untangle the different pieces. Unfortunately, personally, this does not happen as often as I would've liked.
I have a bit of Chinese in my system. But making the jump from reading contemporary Chinese to old Chinese is not an easy task largely because old Chinese is very compact (i.e., few words giving more space for ambiguity). The line that shook me the most lately was 25.2.
(Borrowing Brad's translation...)
Not plowing to harvest
Not breaking new ground in established fields
Then it is worthwhile to have somewhere to go...
I always took it to mean that I need to work my butts off to get somewhere and I should not question what I would get in the end when I'm just halfway through. Then one day, I came across this image of peasants abandoning their fields and moving into the cities looking for work. This is all hinging on the function word "then". What if there's a drought? No amount of plowing and digging would get you anywhere. You can keep plowing hoping one day rain would drop. Or you can go somewhere seeking new opportunities.
You see, the landscape approach is great. It allows one to fill out the skeletal outline of the yao lines with stories. You derive your lessons based on the story you tell.
=====
In addition to the "landscape" methods illustrated on this board, I have some interesting experience looking at the shape of the hexagrams, which is a non-language-based approach. (Well, almost non-language-based.)
I'm very good at misplacing objects:
22.1 (hidden under two blankets and a few pillows)
32.2 (the ceiling of the basement)
14.5 (look sideways, hidden in a stack of old newspaper, stack sideways)
=====
The possibilities are endless!
Philippa
The holistic approach is a beautiful approach. I use it whenever I have the time and the mental space to explore. I agree that it can be "grunt" work in the sense that it takes some patience to untangle the different pieces. Unfortunately, personally, this does not happen as often as I would've liked.
I have a bit of Chinese in my system. But making the jump from reading contemporary Chinese to old Chinese is not an easy task largely because old Chinese is very compact (i.e., few words giving more space for ambiguity). The line that shook me the most lately was 25.2.
(Borrowing Brad's translation...)
Not plowing to harvest
Not breaking new ground in established fields
Then it is worthwhile to have somewhere to go...
I always took it to mean that I need to work my butts off to get somewhere and I should not question what I would get in the end when I'm just halfway through. Then one day, I came across this image of peasants abandoning their fields and moving into the cities looking for work. This is all hinging on the function word "then". What if there's a drought? No amount of plowing and digging would get you anywhere. You can keep plowing hoping one day rain would drop. Or you can go somewhere seeking new opportunities.
You see, the landscape approach is great. It allows one to fill out the skeletal outline of the yao lines with stories. You derive your lessons based on the story you tell.
=====
In addition to the "landscape" methods illustrated on this board, I have some interesting experience looking at the shape of the hexagrams, which is a non-language-based approach. (Well, almost non-language-based.)
I'm very good at misplacing objects:
22.1 (hidden under two blankets and a few pillows)
32.2 (the ceiling of the basement)
14.5 (look sideways, hidden in a stack of old newspaper, stack sideways)
=====
The possibilities are endless!
Philippa
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
Another possibility for 25.2 is
"No one-year (new) land or three-year (older) land. Or: no fields to prepare or fields to maintain."
This line changes to 10.2 (fanyao, one of the maps)
"Walking the way, calm and frank. Hermit?s determination, auspicious."
So I think it has to do with not making a fuss about things, or else limit that to the times there really are things that have to be done. And limit it to what you do, 'being' what you do.
Another map, the 'squares', reckons with the fanyao and the upside-down hexagram pairs. The four lines have a common theme.
25.2: No fields to prepare or fields to maintain. Then there is harvest by proceeding probing.
Do all now and with innocence. If you reckon with next, now has no power.
Another meaning might be: Don't tie yourself to fixed plans, explore life and live it the way it presents itself.
10.2: Walking the way, calm and frank. Hermit?s determination, auspicious.
Faithful to oneself and following one's road. Free from fights or rules.
9.5: Having truth, making order (out of chaos) thus. Rich through one?s neighbor.
Don't try to make people like or trust you, just be nice or trustworthy.
26.5: A gelded pig?s tusks. Auspicious.
No need to remove his tusks if one removes fighting from his mind. (Probably it meant, that his tusks would stay impeccable, if he had no wish to fight. Long pig's tusks were a valuable gift for the gods)
The common theme for these four is the freedom of anything which deliberately gives a direction to things, which would then need all kinds of adjustments to make everything work smoothly. Don't fight anything, but make circumstances such, that there will be no fight. Move along in the groove of universe, instead of building rails for yourself.
With maps one can find the landscapes underneath.
LiSe
"No one-year (new) land or three-year (older) land. Or: no fields to prepare or fields to maintain."
This line changes to 10.2 (fanyao, one of the maps)
"Walking the way, calm and frank. Hermit?s determination, auspicious."
So I think it has to do with not making a fuss about things, or else limit that to the times there really are things that have to be done. And limit it to what you do, 'being' what you do.
Another map, the 'squares', reckons with the fanyao and the upside-down hexagram pairs. The four lines have a common theme.
25.2: No fields to prepare or fields to maintain. Then there is harvest by proceeding probing.
Do all now and with innocence. If you reckon with next, now has no power.
Another meaning might be: Don't tie yourself to fixed plans, explore life and live it the way it presents itself.
10.2: Walking the way, calm and frank. Hermit?s determination, auspicious.
Faithful to oneself and following one's road. Free from fights or rules.
9.5: Having truth, making order (out of chaos) thus. Rich through one?s neighbor.
Don't try to make people like or trust you, just be nice or trustworthy.
26.5: A gelded pig?s tusks. Auspicious.
No need to remove his tusks if one removes fighting from his mind. (Probably it meant, that his tusks would stay impeccable, if he had no wish to fight. Long pig's tusks were a valuable gift for the gods)
The common theme for these four is the freedom of anything which deliberately gives a direction to things, which would then need all kinds of adjustments to make everything work smoothly. Don't fight anything, but make circumstances such, that there will be no fight. Move along in the groove of universe, instead of building rails for yourself.
With maps one can find the landscapes underneath.
LiSe
lightofdarkness
(deceased)
- Joined
- Mar 16, 1970
- Messages
- 1,025
- Reaction score
- 3
From the level of the neurology and into categories of meaning in the unconscious, analysis of, say, hex 16 shows it represents any expression covering sharing time with another/others (expansive binding) operating in a context of wholeness through integrating (contractive blending, to draw 'in')
The foresight/planning perspective is the time element, seeing the 'future' all done from a focus on devotion to another/others also interpretable as total darkness. (contractive blending works like a black hole as it does on the drawing-in of a belief in someone (guru etc) - and so the light is drawn in. Interestingly, 16 pairs with 35 where the focus is on bring something out, into the 'light of day' symbolised in the fire trigram top.
The METHODOLOGY of self-referencing of yin/yang will hard-code associations and so make them invarient but the qualities are GENERAL such that local relabelling will bring out differences and allow for many local interpretations to 'fit' the one quality.
In LiSe's above example on line 2 and 5 dynamics, the UNIVERSAL focus is on qualities represented by hexagram 29 - and so *issues* dealing with containment/control aka 'contractive bounding'.
Chris.
The foresight/planning perspective is the time element, seeing the 'future' all done from a focus on devotion to another/others also interpretable as total darkness. (contractive blending works like a black hole as it does on the drawing-in of a belief in someone (guru etc) - and so the light is drawn in. Interestingly, 16 pairs with 35 where the focus is on bring something out, into the 'light of day' symbolised in the fire trigram top.
The METHODOLOGY of self-referencing of yin/yang will hard-code associations and so make them invarient but the qualities are GENERAL such that local relabelling will bring out differences and allow for many local interpretations to 'fit' the one quality.
In LiSe's above example on line 2 and 5 dynamics, the UNIVERSAL focus is on qualities represented by hexagram 29 - and so *issues* dealing with containment/control aka 'contractive bounding'.
Chris.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
I did find opposites, but very often they were not the opposites one would think of oneself. Maybe opposites only exist in our mind, and universe has only 'other sides', complementary, even mutually making each other exist.
The 'opposite' of hex. 25 is 46. Innocence versus striving up.
15.2: Expressing team-words. Determination auspicious.
Express yourself in a way, which is considerate of others.
46.2: Being true, then harvest: offer a Yue-sacrifice. Without fault.
It may be your personal ambition, but you need others to make it come true. So adapt where necessary, make sacrifices, but without sacrificing yourself or your dreams.
45.5: Gathering has ranks. Without fault. Not true. Great ever-flowing determination. Regrets go away.
In a group one has to give up one?s personal status. If it is out of obeisance, one is a follower, only making the group larger. If it is by commitment to ideals, it lends creativity and driving power to the whole group.
16.5: Determination: affliction. Persevering, not dying.
Inspiration can only cristallize when it is caught within necessity or difficulty. Without that it will diffuse into too much space.
Nobody swims in an undefined space, one is connected with all one's circumstances. 15.2 You express yourself: to others. So do that in the right measure, suitable for them. 46.2 You ascend: in a world. So sacrifice where necessary, and that too in the right measure, fit for that world.
In 45 it even says that true is not good. Fill in the place you have (your rails!), and dedicate yourself to that. And in 16.5 that it will not kill you, even if it can be very uncomfortable. On the contrary, rails have a way of letting things continue without getting astray.
Chris, 29 is interesting, going to look at more squares of lines 2 and 5, if it fits everywhere.
LiSe
The 'opposite' of hex. 25 is 46. Innocence versus striving up.
15.2: Expressing team-words. Determination auspicious.
Express yourself in a way, which is considerate of others.
46.2: Being true, then harvest: offer a Yue-sacrifice. Without fault.
It may be your personal ambition, but you need others to make it come true. So adapt where necessary, make sacrifices, but without sacrificing yourself or your dreams.
45.5: Gathering has ranks. Without fault. Not true. Great ever-flowing determination. Regrets go away.
In a group one has to give up one?s personal status. If it is out of obeisance, one is a follower, only making the group larger. If it is by commitment to ideals, it lends creativity and driving power to the whole group.
16.5: Determination: affliction. Persevering, not dying.
Inspiration can only cristallize when it is caught within necessity or difficulty. Without that it will diffuse into too much space.
Nobody swims in an undefined space, one is connected with all one's circumstances. 15.2 You express yourself: to others. So do that in the right measure, suitable for them. 46.2 You ascend: in a world. So sacrifice where necessary, and that too in the right measure, fit for that world.
In 45 it even says that true is not good. Fill in the place you have (your rails!), and dedicate yourself to that. And in 16.5 that it will not kill you, even if it can be very uncomfortable. On the contrary, rails have a way of letting things continue without getting astray.
Chris, 29 is interesting, going to look at more squares of lines 2 and 5, if it fits everywhere.
LiSe
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
The simplest way to make the squares visible
LiSe
Hi LiSe,
The method of looking at squares for a common theme is incredibly interesting. (Chris, viewing the square from the perspective of 29 is interesting, too.) I've been exploring the "square games" part of your website lately. Not all possible squares are on there. Do you intend to add more?
Philippa
The method of looking at squares for a common theme is incredibly interesting. (Chris, viewing the square from the perspective of 29 is interesting, too.) I've been exploring the "square games" part of your website lately. Not all possible squares are on there. Do you intend to add more?
Philippa
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
Very slowly they are growing. There is very little time, but every time I have a reading which asks for some more figuring-out, I look at the square, and when I am happy with what I find, I add it. Well - usually. There are three or four waiting to be entered.
I have been talking about maps, and not at all about landscapes. Probably maps are a lot easier. Although the landscapes often look around the corners of the maps. The squares end up, for me at least, as a landscape. Giving a common 'climate' to four related lines.
The biggest landscape are for me the hexagram names. Like 64 different continents, with very different features. Some flat, others mountaneous, or oceans, underwater-worlds, cloud-formations, anything you can think of. Cold, like 39, or subtropical like 22. Lots of water, 59, or droughts, 1. Spacious like 2 or narrow like 47.
LiSe
I have been talking about maps, and not at all about landscapes. Probably maps are a lot easier. Although the landscapes often look around the corners of the maps. The squares end up, for me at least, as a landscape. Giving a common 'climate' to four related lines.
The biggest landscape are for me the hexagram names. Like 64 different continents, with very different features. Some flat, others mountaneous, or oceans, underwater-worlds, cloud-formations, anything you can think of. Cold, like 39, or subtropical like 22. Lots of water, 59, or droughts, 1. Spacious like 2 or narrow like 47.
LiSe
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1970
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 210
It is the reason why I don't want a printed edition. I can change things all the time, finding better images, and new things.
I print it very occasionally for a friend, it is a lot of work, and for very special friends I even bind it (umm, well, first of those has to be done yet).
I made one so far, for myself when I am not behind the computer. And simply because it is fun to make it.
I print it very occasionally for a friend, it is a lot of work, and for very special friends I even bind it (umm, well, first of those has to be done yet).
I made one so far, for myself when I am not behind the computer. And simply because it is fun to make it.
frank_r
visitor
- Joined
- Jun 20, 1971
- Messages
- 639
- Reaction score
- 32
Looks beautiful.
I have to say I prefer the book form. (LiSe, they are stunning to look at!) I obviously like to go for the tactile experience, but the historical matters (to me at least), too. In spite of the meaning of "I", I like that the book form gives one single snapshot (e.g., perspective, linguistic issues, stylistic issues) fossilized in time. While on the web version, once you make the changes, the old stuff is gone.
The thing about books is that you can make as many editions as you want. At the end, what you accumulate is a record of change. Something "etymological". (There's a reason why I like the OED so much.)
To digress further, I suppose making editions is possible on the web after all. (Though it seems nothing new now,) I used to know a researcher in HCI (human computer interaction) who does "versioning". The content (how much information and of what context) can be customized. (That is a lot of work for the author, though. I.e., just like the book form, what versions should be made available to the reader?)
Philippa
The thing about books is that you can make as many editions as you want. At the end, what you accumulate is a record of change. Something "etymological". (There's a reason why I like the OED so much.)
To digress further, I suppose making editions is possible on the web after all. (Though it seems nothing new now,) I used to know a researcher in HCI (human computer interaction) who does "versioning". The content (how much information and of what context) can be customized. (That is a lot of work for the author, though. I.e., just like the book form, what versions should be made available to the reader?)
Philippa