Is Divination Indecisiveness or Intent ? (was Real Psychic Readings...)

[cesca]

The use of "karmic process" is interesting as I think it shows a linear course of straight cause/consequence. I, however, don't believe we can think and/or use the Yijing in a purely linear way.

I don’t see karmic process as a linear course of causality. The linear causality idea may be useful as an instrument of social control, in the same way that the Judeo-Christian concept of sin is useful as an instrument of social control, but I think the Real World is a lot more complex and interconnected than that.

It is the querent plus the querent's tool that, in the "observation process" (a better description for me), might unwittingly be affecting both the querent and the subject. The tool is the focal point of the querent's intent at the moment of the observation and, for me, there exist a nonlocal two-way communication between the two. Now, one could argue that if it indeed were it so, then the tool would be some sort of Aladdin's lamp that appears to grant the querent wishes. Well, no, not in that sense. There are subjects that are much bigger than ourselves, say, asking about the outcome of a sport's game or the fate and direction of a country, where the observation process is disproportionally small in comparison with the mass and momentum of the subject. For those, we are mere spectators. But those subjects that directly relate to us at the individual level, those are another matter. There's a whole folklore and countless cautionary tales about "wish asking," as you know, and the formulation of "wishes" is an art very, very difficult to master or we may not get what we thought we had in mind...

And the quality of the “tool” we use also influences the process. To return to your NRA example, the presence of guns does encourage people to use them. In the field of health care, a surgeon will recommend surgery because that’s the tool he knows; by the same token, a nutritionist tends to see everything in nutritional terms. Our tools, like our language (another tool) shape our world.

IMHO, being unaware of such unwitting causality in the carrying of you intent through the observation process doesn't negate the possibility of it happening. But this isn't an entirely theoretical premise, it is also empirical. We only have to pay more attention to it than we usually do.

I agree – the focusing of our intent in a particular way has power, whether we are aware of it or not. We live in a universe of resonance.

 

[arabella]

In any case, can't we view the IChing as an extension of us that will amplify for us where we stand, what is the potential, what decisions we are making by standing where we stand? According to the link about musical vibration that Luis posted above, the IChing, and human beings internally, all represent musical codification, which means we and the Yi are basically from the same material. We vibrate, the Yi does too, and from that the cosmos -- which is also in a state of intentional resonance all on its own -- the music of the spheres. When you see the scenario in that light it's impossible to separate anything into terms of causality, or independent formulation. We are seamless in effect. Our intention/question sends out a note, meeting the the Yi, which sounds back to us, perhaps in harmony, perhaps in dissonance. The material on resonance and internal musical tones that Luis recommended ascribed resonant power in all directions. The key is in aligning your own resonance, or so I gather so that it becomes the wave that carries events, or the rapier wielded by the son of the sire who wanted to conquer the land of Jin. If you align that resonance with the universe, or at least your immediate environment you will have a particular set of consequences. If you align with only yourself I'd imagine your future varies according to how powerful you are. Along with knowing whose "Will" you may be experiencing I'd imagine you also need to know whose "standard" you are experiencing -- and in relation to what ultimate standard. It's like saying "what is a Great man?" or "who is normal?" As many answers there as there are people. After reading what Luis provided on that link, I believe musical resonance does create the wave however, and to understand what sparks that resonance or can amplify it is at the least a life's work. There are some who have attempted to understand and explain, like the Hazrat Innayat Khan, what material we are working with here.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Cesca,

I don’t see karmic process as a linear course of causality. The linear causality idea may be useful as an instrument of social control, in the same way that the Judeo-Christian concept of sin is useful as an instrument of social control, but I think the Real World is a lot more complex and interconnected than that.

Me neither but to understand my "linear course of straight cause/consequence" comment related to the karmic process I'll refer you to the context of Peter's own comment earlier:

They are not empowered, amplified or transformed by the I Ching, per se, into an irreversible karmic process.
​

I interpreted his intention as referring to linear causality. The use of "irreversible" in the sentence was the qualifier.

And the quality of the “tool” we use also influences the process. To return to your NRA example, the presence of guns does encourage people to use them. In the field of health care, a surgeon will recommend surgery because that’s the tool he knows; by the same token, a nutritionist tends to see everything in nutritional terms. Our tools, like our language (another tool) shape our world.

I certainly agree. The "quality" is important in most instances, but I rather see the Yijing as a "high quality" tool, regardless, and place the good or bad usage of it squarely on the user.

I agree – the focusing of our intent in a particular way has power, whether we are aware of it or not. We live in a universe of resonance.

 

[peter2610]

Luis, I think there's a lot more common ground here than actual differences; still it's good to have to examine one's own views and compare with others.

Overall Context (where I'm coming from): Ultimately, all phenomena, both abstract and physical, are aspects of universal mind - the unified field of consciousness. The unconditioned essence of who I am, the transcendent aspect of self beyond relative dualism, is one with your essence, and all others. It is, in fact, one with all phenomena:

That which permeates all, which nothing transcends and which, like the universal space around us, fills everything completely from within and without, that Supreme non-dual Brahman -- that thou art.
Sankaracharya ​

In that sense, there is ultimately no I, you, he. she etc. but simply a unified state of being. But until I reach the state of non-dual Brahman, or eternal Nirvana, I have the small matter of working on, and living as, the conditioned entity that is PB.

Whereas, in your position, I see an emphasis placed on an external entity, that is, you think of the Yijing in the third person (it/he/she), I think of it in the first and the second: a part and extension of my self and of yours.

If we view the manifestation of universal consciousness as being expressed through two principle orders, matter and mind, or yin and yang, both with a common underlying unity, we can argue that they share a reciprocal relationship. All physical phenomena are manifest expressions of mind. Essence can be regarded as 'meaning' in its most abstract expression, and meaning is generated at its most fundamental level by dualistic polarity. The continually changing interplay between yin and yang generates changeless essence. The universal process constantly seeks a state of homeostatic balance hence there is a regulatory relationship between the two orders. Any excessive or unbalanced development in the one order will eventually produce a compensatory and reciprocal response from the other order - this is, in effect, karma, and the basis of how the I Ching works. If I were a wiser man, I would be able to follow and read this process without using the I Ching. The I Ching is simply a useful, albeit profound, tool.

If our thought processes develop into a causal sequence we will produce a change in our physical environment/circumstances. If that change is in harmony with the universal process (of which we are all a part), then all well and good. If not, and particularly if we sustain the direction we have taken, eventually there will be a compensatory and reciprocal response.

I see the I Ching, not as an independent entity, but as a man-made set of empirical observations, gathered together by people who had a profound understanding of this universal process. If I submit my self-will to the I Ching's guidance, I am not submitting myself to an I Ching entity but to a universal process that is immanent within me and all external phenomena. It is, after all, the external manifestation of my own unconscious processes that created the reading in the first place. In that sense, the I Ching is an extension of myself, but I find it misleading to keep describing it as such because, ultimately, all phenomena are One, but at that level of reality there is no I, you etc., there is no I Ching.

The iffy concept for you, if I understand you correctly, is the acausal, the unmeasurable chasm between a simple casual consultation of the Yijing (or the Tarot, or the Runes, or you name it, because I don't circumscribe "observation>effect>change" to the Yijing alone; we just happen to be talking about it) and its possible effect on the subject at a distance, be that "distance" a measure of length and/or time. That there cannot possibly be a tangible connection between the simple act of observation and the subject. If so, I beg to differ. It is a scientific fact at the quantum level and, as more and more experiments show similar effects at the macro level, I believe the whole idea will develop further into our collective consciousness in the coming decades and centuries

All minds are aspects of universal mind. All minds are subject to non-local interconnectivity. Does that mean that our minds are constantly flooded by the "vibrations" of others thoughts? I don't think so, life would be very difficult if that were the case, coherent thought would be almost impossible. The crucial point is the question of degree. Not all thoughts, intentions, attitudes, emotions carry the same libidinal content or momentum. As you yourself describe, in an excellent analogy, thoughts emanate like ripples on a pond. Those ripples are subject to interference from countless other wave forms and ultimately refraction from the psychic content of the object's mind-set. There is non-local connectivity, but at the level of focus involved in taking an I Ching reading it is unlikely, I would argue, to carry any causal momentum. Even if the issue is an old one, carrying some degree of momentum, the chances are that it will meet with an equally robust formation in the object's mind-set. Many years ago, for better or worse, and for reasons I don't want to explain here, I made the rather radical decision to literally base my life-direction - health, career, finances, relationships etc. - entirely on the guidance I received from the I Ching. In the hundreds of thousands of readings that ensued, I can honestly say that I'm not aware of a single instance of the reading process per se (as distinct from my interpretation) having any causal impact on the object of the reading. The obvious reply to this might be that non-awareness is no argument for non-occurance, but I am comparing the reading process with countless instances where I know with complete certainty that my sustained thoughts/emotions have increased momentum to the point where I have witnessed their acausal impact on the lives of others.

The most potent aspect of our thoughts is their potential for influencing our inner processes. It is somewhat ironic that I find myself arguing about the external limits of thought when I use the I Ching almost exclusively as a guide for my thinking processes. Transient thoughts, be they in the context of a reading or everyday reflections, are unlikely to influence or impact upon others to any significant degree; it is the repeated repetition or developing continuation of a thought process that eventually gathers libidinal content and emotional momentum to the point where it becomes almost inevitably manifest as an external causal expression or action. This then becomes the equivalent of dropping a large boulder in the pond and creating a mini-Tsunami - there is then no question whatsoever of the impact upon others and/or ourselves.

In differentiating between the questioning process and the interpretation of a reading I am not denying non-local connectivity with the object. The process of formulating and presenting a question obviously carries psychic content but any acausal impact arising from the questioning process per se (including its psychic energy) is negligible compared with the potential impact of the interpretation. I see the I Ching's most valuable quality as its ability to objectify our thought processes at the point of incipient emergence, and help increase our awareness of the potential implications of our decisions - in the sense that they will be in harmony or dissonance with the Dao of the situation. The I Ching would be extremely compromised if, every time we took a reading, we impacted upon the lives of others - regardless of our interpretation of the reading.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, I think there's a lot more common ground here than actual differences; still it's good to have to examine one's own views and compare with others.

Peter, I agree. I suppose that is just a matter of where each of us believe causality starts in the process of divination>guidance>action.

Overall Context (where I'm coming from): Ultimately, all phenomena, both abstract and physical, are aspects of universal mind - the unified field of consciousness. The unconditioned essence of who I am, the transcendent aspect of self beyond relative dualism, is one with your essence, and all others. It is, in fact, one with all phenomena:

Wholeheartedly agree.

If we view the manifestation of universal consciousness as being expressed through two principle orders, matter and mind, or yin and yang, both with a common underlying unity, we can argue that they share a reciprocal relationship.

Yes.

All physical phenomena are manifest expressions of mind. Essence can be regarded as 'meaning' in its most abstract expression, and meaning is generated at its most fundamental level by dualistic polarity. The continually changing interplay between yin and yang generates changeless essence. The universal process constantly seeks a state of homeostatic balance hence there is a regulatory relationship between the two orders. Any excessive or unbalanced development in the one order will eventually produce a compensatory and reciprocal response from the other order - this is, in effect, karma, and the basis of how the I Ching works. If I were a wiser man, I would be able to follow and read this process without using the I Ching. The I Ching is simply a useful, albeit profound, tool.

Absolutely.

If our thought processes develop into a causal sequence we will produce a change in our physical environment/circumstances. If that change is in harmony with the universal process (of which we are all a part), then all well and good. If not, and particularly if we sustain the direction we have taken, eventually there will be a compensatory and reciprocal response.

Indeed.

I see the I Ching, not as an independent entity, but as a man-made set of empirical observations, gathered together by people who had a profound understanding of this universal process. If I submit my self-will to the I Ching's guidance, I am not submitting myself to an I Ching entity but to a universal process that is immanent within me and all external phenomena. It is, after all, the external manifestation of my own unconscious processes that created the reading in the first place. In that sense, the I Ching is an extension of myself, but I find it misleading to keep describing it as such because, ultimately, all phenomena are One, but at that level of reality there is no I, you etc., there is no I Ching.

Well, we live in the sphere of manifestation and duality. In the level above this one, there isn't a need for expression either... I see no harm or mislead in the description.

All minds are aspects of universal mind. All minds are subject to non-local interconnectivity. Does that mean that our minds are constantly flooded by the "vibrations" of others thoughts? I don't think so, life would be very difficult if that were the case, coherent thought would be almost impossible. The crucial point is the question of degree. Not all thoughts, intentions, attitudes, emotions carry the same libidinal content or momentum. As you yourself describe, in an excellent analogy, thoughts emanate like ripples on a pond. Those ripples are subject to interference from countless other wave forms and ultimately refraction from the psychic content of the object's mind-set. There is non-local connectivity, but at the level of focus involved in taking an I Ching reading it is unlikely, I would argue, to carry any causal momentum. Even if the issue is an old one, carrying some degree of momentum, the chances are that it will meet with an equally robust formation in the object's mind-set.

This is where we diverge. I do think we are constantly flooded by other's thoughts. Just cover your ears. Do you hear the natural ringing noise inside? (I hope you don't have a bad case of tinnitus or it would be harder to make my point...) I'm sure you do. However, how much attention do you pay to it unless you are reminded that is there or you happen to be in total silence and it manifest itself in your consciousness? I know it is a simplistic example but my point is that we are constantly surrounded by "white background noise." We just have learned to filter it all out to live with our own voice alone. We've done it so much and for so long that we have lost the "sense." It doesn't mean, however, that don't hear it. It means that we don't listen.

I agree though that not all thoughts carry the same weight and the vast majority of all thoughts are transient and devoid of any significant footprint. By the same token, I firmly believe that the kind of concentration and attitude required to pose a question to an oracle, the ritual behind it, the interpretation, etc., does accumulate and carry a very significant weight that projects away from the querent and connects him/her to the subject in a nonlocal way. The thing is, the more covert the effect, the more subtle and effective in pushing the subject. If the subject were ever aware of such a connection the action would stop because, as you've said, there would be a "compensatory and reciprocal response."

Many years ago, for better or worse, and for reasons I don't want to explain here, I made the rather radical decision to literally base my life-direction - health, career, finances, relationships etc. - entirely on the guidance I received from the I Ching. In the hundreds of thousands of readings that ensued, I can honestly say that I'm not aware of a single instance of the reading process per se (as distinct from my interpretation) having any causal impact on the object of the reading. The obvious reply to this might be that non-awareness is no argument for non-occurance, but I am comparing the reading process with countless instances where I know with complete certainty that my sustained thoughts/emotions have increased momentum to the point where I have witnessed their acausal impact on the lives of others.

Exactly!! You've witnessed what your focused thoughts can do. I'm just pulling that acausal impact back to the moment you sit down and concentrate in doing a reading. It is at the incipiency of such a process that I'm pointing to. I appreciate the fact that you've shared how much you use the Yi in your life.

The most potent aspect of our thoughts is their potential for influencing our inner processes. It is somewhat ironic that I find myself arguing about the external limits of thought when I use the I Ching almost exclusively as a guide for my thinking processes. Transient thoughts, be they in the context of a reading or everyday reflections, are unlikely to influence or impact upon others to any significant degree; it is the repeated repetition or developing continuation of a thought process that eventually gathers libidinal content and emotional momentum to the point where it becomes almost inevitably manifest as an external causal expression or action. This then becomes the equivalent of dropping a large boulder in the pond and creating a mini-Tsunami - there is then no question whatsoever of the impact upon others and/or ourselves.

Good thing I'm not talking about transient thoughts. The rest I certainly agree with.

In differentiating between the questioning process and the interpretation of a reading I am not denying non-local connectivity with the object. The process of formulating and presenting a question obviously carries psychic content but any acausal impact arising from the questioning process per se (including its psychic energy) is negligible compared with the potential impact of the interpretation. I see the I Ching's most valuable quality as its ability to objectify our thought processes at the point of incipient emergence, and help increase our awareness of the potential implications of our decisions - in the sense that they will be in harmony or dissonance with the Dao of the situation. The I Ching would be extremely compromised if, every time we took a reading, we impacted upon the lives of others - regardless of our interpretation of the reading.

I got to ask: do you believe I'm talking about the actual manipulation of the yarrow or the tossing of the coins itself as the portal to acausality? I just realized in your repetition of "questioning process per se" that it could be so. That's not what I'm talking about. The other question is: how can one separate the question from the interpretation of the answer? Aren't they a whole unit? When I refer to "questioning process" I have the whole ritual in mind, from beginning (querying) to end (interpretation). The concentration of one's thoughts in the process is what might, just might, be doing the trick. And the Yijing is one of those tools that, by its nature, amplifies our attention and concentration.

 

[cesca]

I'm just pulling that acausal impact back to the moment you sit down and concentrate in doing a reading. It is at the incipiency of such a process that I'm pointing to.

This reminds me of the experience I often have in a homoeopathic consultation -- as soon as my homoeopath tells me the remedy she has decided to send me, it starts to work; often, by the time the physical remedy has actually arrived, the condition for which it was prescribed is pretty much sorted.

You could call it a placebo effect, but that's just another term for an acausal phenomenon anyway...

 

[cesca]

Just found this on the yi xue forum, posted about a month ago by Chris Gait, and relevant to this thread:

"The Shang used the oracle bones as a form of prayer, and perhaps, in those early days, as a form of magical invocation. The Zhou moved to a much more sophisticated approach, nuanced and subject to many more shades of grey. The Warring States views reflected in the Spring and Autumn Annals reflect an even greater depth, including the ability to get a completely positive reading and understand that you are doomed, or a completely negative one that shows how much you are blessed."

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks Cesca! I didn't know my Yixue notification settings were screwed up until you mentioned CGait's post. No wonder the forum was so quiet for me...

Gotta catch up!!!

As for what he posted, exactly what I had in mind but I still think the so called "magical" aspect of the consultation never left the practice, even if we don't call it magical anymore.

 

[arabella]

This reminds me of the experience I often have in a homoeopathic consultation -- as soon as my homoeopath tells me the remedy she has decided to send me, it starts to work; often, by the time the physical remedy has actually arrived, the condition for which it was prescribed is pretty much sorted.

You could call it a placebo effect, but that's just another term for an acausal phenomenon anyway...

I know precisely what you mean. I sometimes see the doctor just to have the diagnosis and understand what's wrong and what would fix it. The medicines I'm given usually go in the closet and I forget about them. Once I've visualised the problem and that it's perfectly curable it heals itself, although I generally combine the visualisation with EFT which clears anything negative that was hanging onto the pain/problem and sets up how I'd like to feel.

 

[peter2610]

This is where we diverge. I do think we are constantly flooded by other's thoughts. Just cover your ears. Do you hear the natural ringing noise inside? (I hope you don't have a bad case of tinnitus or it would be harder to make my point...) I'm sure you do. However, how much attention do you pay to it unless you are reminded that is there or you happen to be in total silence and it manifest itself in your consciousness? I know it is a simplistic example but my point is that we are constantly surrounded by "white background noise." We just have learned to filter it all out to live with our own voice alone. We've done it so much and for so long that we have lost the "sense." It doesn't mean, however, that don't hear it. It means that we don't listen.

Exactly. If we were receptive to the actual thoughts of others, our minds would be flooded with their telepathic content. Multiply this by dozens or even hundreds of occurrences per day and our mental lives would become chaotic - with our thoughts/feelings being constantly provoked and creating reactive responses, our lives would become a constant round of mental argument. We are far, far more resilient than that. Whether it's a case of blocking/not listening, or the incoming thought energies lacking sufficient momentum, the outcome is the same - they have no significant causal impact.

The thing is, the more covert the effect, the more subtle and effective in pushing the subject. If the subject were ever aware of such a connection the action would stop because, as you've said, there would be a "compensatory and reciprocal response.

If this were literally the case, we would find ourselves constantly in a state of confused mayhem, continually influenced and directed by unseen, unidentified forces; openly vulnerable to anyone who might choose to manipulate and control our lives. People can be subtly manipulated and unknowingly influenced, but not by the process of undertaking an I Ching reading. If I pose a question to the I Ching such as "How should I proceed in my relationship with X" how exactly would you say that the psychic energy of such a question would impact upon X ? There is no intent, good or bad, directed towards X, simply a wish to find the best direction. My focus is primarily on the solution, not on X.

When I speak of my sustained thoughts/emotions creating an acausal effect I am generally talking about intimate relationships where the slightest change in nuance can be 'sensed' by either partner. Such mutual influence is predicated by a willing openness and merging of mental processes, and based upon a significant amount of emotional content. At this level of libidinal investment and psychic energy (I use the word 'psychic' in the sense of 'psychological' not in the occult or paranormal sense) our thoughts/emotions have the potential for actual causal effect, but this content isn't created by a few minutes of focussed concentration, it is developed over a sustained period of time to the point where it carries substantial emotional momentum. It is the emotional content and above all else, the intent, that carries the actual force.

On rare occasions I've experienced the approach of intentional and deeply negative thought-forms emanating from others who for one reason or another have developed an established attitude towards me. I use the term 'approach' rather than 'impact' deliberately because these thought-forms were instantly recognized for what they were and immediately bounced back, usually with an attitude of mild amusement - they had no harmful impact on me whatsoever. Positive thought-forms, on the other hand, emanating from loved-ones, are joyfully and wholeheartedly embraced and taken-in. This is not the same thing as sensing someone's emotional attitude, empathy or mood; thought-forms carry dynamic directional energy and intent.

The key commonality with both of the above example is that they are not neutral - they carry substantial emotional content, developed over sustained periods, and they carry intent. By comparison, the dynamic content of the few minutes of focussed attention involved in a reading is almost negligible. There is also the additional fact that the majority of readings carry little or no intentional violation towards the object. My main focus will usually be upon the choice of directions involved and, more often than not, upon my own moral perception of the relationship. There will be non-local connectivity, but without directive intent and considerable emotional momentum there will no causal impact.

Consciousness embraces a continuum that ranges from transient thoughts to physical formations. Sustained thoughts develop into patterns of perception and emotions, which if maintained develop into habitual nature and fixed formations that eventually manifest in reciprocal physical formations. We create our own karma, and our own environment. There is nothing else that has such a powerful impact upon our lives as our own thought processes. Hence we do well to pay heed when the I Ching urges "Perseverance brings misfortune." I use the I Ching almost exclusively as a guide to this internal cosmology of thought processes and inner perception. It is the sustained and repeated thought patterns, patterns which influence perception and accumulate emotional content, that carry potential causal and karmic impact; they are the big-boys on the block. Transient, even focussed, thoughts are, by comparison, playful children - but still it pays to observe their direction.


As you say in your post, it's simply a question of where we see causality kicking-in. For me, it's not at the point of questioning but at the point of interpretation, the point of incipient emergence of direction. If the reading urges me to withdraw from a possible direction at that point then I will do so in the belief that I have created no significant causal impact whatsoever.

 

[Sparhawk]

The key commonality with both of the above example is that they are not neutral - they carry substantial emotional content, developed over sustained periods, and they carry intent. By comparison, the dynamic content of the few minutes of focussed attention involved in a reading is almost negligible. There is also the additional fact that the majority of readings carry little or no intentional violation towards the object. My main focus will usually be upon the choice of directions involved and, more often than not, upon my own moral perception of the relationship. There will be non-local connectivity, but without directive intent and considerable emotional momentum there will no causal impact.

Consciousness embraces a continuum that ranges from transient thoughts to physical formations. Sustained thoughts develop into patterns of perception and emotions, which if maintained develop into habitual nature and fixed formations that eventually manifest in reciprocal physical formations. We create our own karma, and our own environment. There is nothing else that has such a powerful impact upon our lives as our own thought processes. Hence we do well to pay heed when the I Ching urges "Perseverance brings misfortune." I use the I Ching almost exclusively as a guide to this internal cosmology of thought processes and inner perception. It is the sustained and repeated thought patterns, patterns which influence perception and accumulate emotional content, that carry potential causal and karmic impact; they are the big-boys on the block. Transient, even focussed, thoughts are, by comparison, playful children - but still it pays to observe their direction.


As you say in your post, it's simply a question of where we see causality kicking-in. For me, it's not at the point of questioning but at the point of interpretation, the point of incipient emergence of direction. If the reading urges me to withdraw from a possible direction at that point then I will do so in the belief that I have created no significant causal impact whatsoever.

Tell you what, we should work on an "acausality gauge" to measure exactly when the needle starts moving and whoever is correct buys the other one a beer... We do seem to agree in its existence though and that's good enough for me. But again, I take questioning and interpretation as a solid unit. There is no interpretation without questioning, and questioning without interpretation is pointless.

 

[peter2610]

Tell you what, we should work on an "acausality gauge" to measure exactly when the needle starts moving and whoever is correct buys the other one a beer... We do seem to agree in its existence though and that's good enough for me.

Me too. It's been a very interesting exchange of ideas and we're near as dammit on the same page.

Acausality Gauge: I'll see if I can find one on Amazon

 

[arabella]

Check Ebay for a cheaper used model.

 

[peter2610]

Good idea.

 

[Tohpol]

Really enjoyed this thread. Thanks guys. I'm still going back and re-reading but my two cents so far:

I've said this before of course, but is it not possible that the I Ching is the tool / conduit that allows to access directly and progressively the Higher Self that is answering any given query based on a loop from the "future"? Couldn't that be essentially how the Universal mind knows itself, by a constant prodigal return? No end, no beginning but feedback loops on a learning spiral. The more one seeks to apply the answers one's Yi gives, the greater the proabability of a singular branch towards the reality one is seeking. As mentioned, in the end these tools are not needed as the amplitude or "forced oscillations" have set up the required frequency that shifts awareness, perception and thus the quality of choices. The causality "kicked in" before one even approached the I Ching, I would say. The interpretation of the answer has already been understood and the question / answer dichotomy is merely "acting out" in order to manifest a latent, pre-birth understanding via a genetic/spiritual template. The choices have been made - even the questions - yet the WHY of that direction and the process is the key. I see the I Ching as underscoring a form of spiritual time travel.

 

[peter2610]

Thanks Topal, for your comments.

I've said this before of course, but is it not possible that the I Ching is the tool / conduit that allows to access directly and progressively the Higher Self that is answering any given query based on a loop from the "future"? Couldn't that be essentially how the Universal mind knows itself, by a constant prodigal return? No end, no beginning but feedback loops on a learning spiral.

Yes, I would say the I Ching objectifies the Dao of any given situation from a universal perspective, which is synonymous with the Higher Self. Try to think of that perspective as coming from a state of timelessness. Let me try to explain: Relative forms, including time and space are conditioned phenomena, and just as with all conditioned phenomena, they are predicated upon dualistic polarity. These polarities are mutually defining, hence they are relative; but the meaningful Essence created by all polarities is, at its most abstract level, absolute and unconditioned (and that, right there, is the basis of the indivisible Trinity).

As Essence approaches increasing abstraction its meaningful content becomes increasingly convergent and less and less relative. The pure essences of all meanings merge into indivisible wholeness. The abstract meaning of time and space (the most fundamental of all relative forms) merge into the same unity with all phenomena. Meaning is no longer relative or conditional, there is no dimensional space, there is no linear time, only the timeless eternal Present. In Physical Cosmology this point is represented by the Planck Scale, the point at which all fundamental forces converge into unification.

Synchronicity is an acausal representation of the present. Rooted in timelessness, our divination shows the innate tendency of events as they emerge from the timeless essence that is the source of all external manifestation, and proceed towards increasingly relative and temporal expression. These seeds of change are shown in terms of their potential harmony or dissonance with the universal process, they are a property of the process that we objectify during its transition from pure abstract potential to concrete causal events. The 'future' is held as a purely abstract potential within the 'Now.'

By objectifying this transition, we can 'predict' future tendencies and determine our actions accordingly. We have a free choice in this. Certain karmic formations are indeed pre-determined, but our decisions at the incipient stage of events are, by and large, completely open and free - we just have to try to remember that once our thoughts/actions enter the causal chain they will create future karma. The universal mind knows itself through the eternal bliss of unconditioned wholeness, the balanced essence of all manifestation. If our chosen direction violates that balanced homeostasis, the universal mind compensates with a reciprocal response in order to maintain essence. Without relative time there is no change, without change there is no meaning, without meaning there is no essence, without essence there is no timelessness.

 

[arabella]

Really enjoyed this thread. Thanks guys. I'm still going back and re-reading but my two cents so far:

I've said this before of course, but is it not possible that the I Ching is the tool / conduit that allows to access directly and progressively the Higher Self that is answering any given query based on a loop from the "future"? Couldn't that be essentially how the Universal mind knows itself, by a constant prodigal return? No end, no beginning but feedback loops on a learning spiral. The more one seeks to apply the answers one's Yi gives, the greater the proabability of a singular branch towards the reality one is seeking. As mentioned, in the end these tools are not needed as the amplitude or "forced oscillations" have set up the required frequency that shifts awareness, perception and thus the quality of choices. The causality "kicked in" before one even approached the I Ching, I would say. The interpretation of the answer has already been understood and the question / answer dichotomy is merely "acting out" in order to manifest a latent, pre-birth understanding via a genetic/spiritual template. The choices have been made - even the questions - yet the WHY of that direction and the process is the key. I see the I Ching as underscoring a form of spiritual time travel.

I'm not sure of the overtones of "predestination" in what you are saying Topal; however, I think your assumption about perceiving many times in one [from the future for instance] is intriguing and something I've contemplated as well. Especially as we are measuring time and distance in "light years" and the time in which light travels and we've discovered recently that something travels at least twice the speed of light -- and we don't know what to call that ability -- then we can begin to imagine something much faster than the speed of light that communicates, something that we can't see or measure or even talk about since we don't have the language.

In that realm, much happens -- perhaps what we call inspiration, intuition, subliminal perception, other mysteries of other dimensions -- hidden activities of all types. I don't know if what occurs there predates our birth and implies a destiny or life paths or if that even matters, but it certainly transpires in a place beyond our immediate understanding and intentional involvement. Yes, spritual travel, and probably travel in a realm beyond what we perceive of time.

 

[Tohpol]

I'm not sure of the overtones of "predestination" in what you are saying Topal; however, I think your assumption about perceiving many times in one [from the future for instance] is intriguing and something I've contemplated as well. Especially as we are measuring time and distance in "light years" and the time in which light travels and we've discovered recently that something travels at least twice the speed of light -- and we don't know what to call that ability -- then we can begin to imagine something much faster than the speed of light that communicates, something that we can't see or measure or even talk about since we don't have the language.

In that realm, much happens -- perhaps what we call inspiration, intuition, subliminal perception, other mysteries of other dimensions -- hidden activities of all types. I don't know if what occurs there predates our birth and implies a destiny or life paths or if that even matters, but it certainly transpires in a place beyond our immediate understanding and intentional involvement. Yes, spritual travel, and probably travel in a realm beyond what we perceive of time.

Superluminal communication?

I don't think there's any predestination in the sense that we understand it i.e. fate. I do think there is a type of destiny according to an open, fluid future. Similarly, I don't think there is a tabula rasa - there is a many layered contiuum of consciousness that is refined over "time" which encompasses the existence between death and birth. Destiny might be likened to being presented with a wall that we need to paint and an infinite number of paint pots of every conceivable colour. Fate however, means we have the wall and one paint pot with one colour. Very linear. Very deterministic.

Then there are those that say as the consciousness continues to be refined and the soul stores the experiences of lifetimes like a hard drive on a computer and so eventually the soul via its personality can accomodate a truly conscious individual that is fully aware of his/her destiny - past, present and future - which could essentially be from the same source scattered along trajectories and "nodal points" for maximum learning potential. Then perhaps those souls who have arrived without conscious planning are like cannonballs bouncing around sampling all kinds of Earth-life experiences until something grows in them that ignites self-awareness and self-reflection. Who knows? I think speculating is all part of that rembering.

No doubt we'll all find out when we check out.

 

[Tohpol]

Woo-hoo! Thanks Peter. That's beautifully put!

 

[heylise]

Destiny might be likened to being presented with a wall that we need to paint and an infinite number of paint pots of every conceivable colour. Fate however, means we have the wall and one paint pot with one colour. Very linear. Very deterministic.

Love it!

 

[simon ian]

this is a very good thread. You lot keep thinking, I will just go and make a cup of tea.
:bows:

 

[heylise]

Really enjoyed this thread. Thanks guys. I'm still going back and re-reading but my two cents so far:

I've said this before of course, but is it not possible that the I Ching is the tool / conduit that allows to access directly and progressively the Higher Self that is answering any given query based on a loop from the "future"?

Higher Self