It came to a head - turmoil, doubt and confusion - what is true? Hex 39 unchanging

[em ching]

Labelling it 'victim mentality' only goes so far and has blame attached to it. All the new agers love to accuse anyone ill or suffering of having 'victim mentality' its their way of keeping seperate and safe from it . I'm not saying you,Bamboo are one of these extreme types but i come accross those ideas so often...boy they get to the stage where they say anyone suffering has 'victim mentality'.

I do understand the exasperation. I don't think theres any point in Em Ching asking for further interpretations of this issue here. I think it might help her more just to talk to someone about it. To be blunt I think she may be getting ill with depression or something so I can't see how being really disparaging abouth her will help. And I'm not meaning to be patronising saying you may be getting depression Em Ching I just hope you recognise when you need help as opposed to thinking changing the situation will change everything for you.

Doesn't everyone know that extreme difficulty and anxiety over reaching fairly simple decisions may be a symptom of depressive illness ??? I'm not saying that is the case, how would I know, I'm just aware of it as a possibility.

.

Thanks Trojan. I think I am being a coward here because I am afraid of being on my own and even more isolated if I leave, but I know I am capable of being a good friend so maybe I should take a chance. But I'm clueless maybe in certain aspects of social skill, because I am so quick to allow others to be superior..

I have spoken to people about this whole thing and they mainly think I should look for somewhere else and try not to make it personal. Obviously I messed that one up and I'm really paying for it. Perhaps this whole scenario has been something of a self-fulfilling prophecy (my inability to trust - pointed out by my counsellor) but they, have jumped on my weakness it seems. But yes act together. I don't know what the repercutions of the other night are yet. I suppose it's make or break time but I think I've caused too much offence, discomfort and negativity, but perhaps this was all meant to happen. Meng said something a while ago about how their actions in a way have been pushing me to realise that, being true to myself, these are not people I should surround myself with. Grating comes to mind. But I have enjoyed spending time with them in the past which is why i thought it'd be ok, though I knew there were differences, but as one of them said last night, I have changed apparently and not been making an effort when in my mind I felt that they hadn't given me a chance, but my argument to that was that it proved they only accepted me when i did as they did. I don't know - circles. I know the blame lies on both sides. And I hope everyone is not about reading this right now.

Trojan that could be the crux of this whole thing. Indecisiveness is an underestimated evil - (and the main characteristic of Librans...) as is over-analysing.. I think I need to go to a quiet place.

 

[em ching]

I've obviously let the dark in too much recently, since moving back here.
But at work things are good, surprisingly enough and that's a solace, but I feel slightly like i have a dual existence. So I suppose that's highlighting the problem at home.

Someone once said to me that you attract what you think. perhaps if I stopped thinking when they turned dark... but I have only been reacting to my treatment here for the past couple of weeks.

 

[Trojina]

Some days it is extremely difficult for me to decide what socks to put on,,, then I know i have to ease up

 

[em ching]

are you a libra too?

Perhaps I've lost my sense of humour here recently... shock of the real world and my place in it. When I don't even know the place of my own head. Because it explores all the angles, and adds some for good measure!

yes well, little decisions I've got better at, like what chocolate bar to get, I've mastered that one - although I have fretted to the point of - if I get this it'll tip the balance of my life one way etc... just go with the chocolate bar you went into the shop for in the first place... if that makes any sort of sense as a metaphor..

Perhaps I need to step away from my computer now.

:bows: to all

 

[Sparhawk]

yes well, little decisions I've got better at, like what chocolate bar to get, I've mastered that one - although I have fretted to the point of - if I get this it'll tip the balance of my life one way etc... just go with the chocolate bar you went into the shop for in the first place... if that makes any sort of sense as a metaphor..

You've never been to a Lindt store, have you? I've no choice but to get one of each...

 

[em ching]

Ps Willowfox if you have been trying to get a rise out of me and push my buttons, well perhaps that's what some of my housemates have been trying to do..
But, as my counsellor has pointed out, I have a warped way with anger. It does not come when it should, I guess it goes inwards. Perhaps one day it'll flip.
Anwyay. Peace. We all have our silly things. Humans are humans are never straightforward or easy to understand, need make allowances, different strokes etc...

Yes - Lindt is a magical standout creation so would come top of the list - they should do it in bar form!

 

[diamanda]

I thought the problem was indeed indecisiveness, but now that you've
explained so many of your thoughts, and also how they behave to you,
i can see that there's something else behind the indecisiveness. It's
what you yourself said, "But I'm clueless maybe in certain aspects of
social skill, because I am so quick to allow others to be superior". I
think you pretty much summarised it all in this sentence.

People who are not bullies, and do not know how to play mind-games,
do not have any 'ammunition' against such games. They can't recognise
them. They don't know what hit them. And don't know why they feel
so utterly debilitated. It usually happens to people who are overly
honest themselves, and thus tend to judge others by their own self.
So, if someone 'attacks' you, your mind will go down a logical way of
"there must be something wrong then", and if they go on pretending,
and you keep analysing, and they keep on changing the goal-posts, it's
very easy to see how you reached a point not to know if you're coming
or going, or who is wrong here, or what's going on.

Whoever plays mind-games has exactly this purpose, ie to gain control
over someone else, to have power over them, mainly by making them
doubt their own mental faculties, and also by creating in them strong
emotional reactions. A very common everyday form of this is when
someone offends you, and then pretends it was only a joke, only to
accuse you even more for being so 'humourless' and 'oversensitive'.
Of course there's countless forms this can take. But this is the basic
idea.

Yes indeed you are the victim of bullying mind-games, and your only
blame in this is that you cannot recognise them, they are alien to
your nature, and thus allow them to happen, by reacting exactly how
they want you to react (= take it personally, take them seriously,
get upset, etc). You really need to learn what's going on with that
sort of people, because they really are absolutely everywhere, and
you just can't avoid them in life. You need to observe and learn. Ok
the situation in there got bad, nevermind. You'll find another house
and other friends. Once you get some peace, away from them, you
really need to think on this and how to improve your 'social skills' in
order to know how to deal with bullies.

 

[em ching]

Thank you so much Diamanda.
That came just in time - I read it just after speaking to them this evening, they asked me whether I'd decided what I wanted to do and I said I think I should go.
I umm'd and aa'd a bit of course, and then, like I always do I kind of let myself down by apologising to one of them for having pointed the finger last night, and that I didn't mean to offend, to which she replied 'Yeah I was offended to be honest'..
Great, power firmly back with her .. lesson learn EM!!! how long will it take for the ability to stand up for myself to become a part of me...

But now, at least on the surface again it's fine, they said they just want to know so they can make the necessary arrangements, but that they didn't want to seem like they are pushing me out...

So now it's done. I can't go back on it, I really am going to have to find somewhere else asap and in the meantime I guess I'll be here but not here, but perhaps it has been like that all along. They have not at all been made to feel bad for their actions because again I failed to stand my ground because as you said, it is something I would never do to a person so I can't believe that they did.. I also doubt myself of course and whether I blew it out of proportion, but of course i must bear in mind that their way with me has pained me, even if it wouldn't someone else, and they did it once, twice and so will again.. Even if they won't admit they did anything wrong in any way..

After it being concrete that I am out, I of course I immediately felt that i had made a mistake, rejected people only to be on my own... which comes with its own demons.. but they moved on from the issue and have someone in mind to move in so they're fine with it, and if I did stay and give it another go, I think it could never be easy, and as you said before, friendship is supposed to be a joy, easy and natural which it isn't here.

It's just scary, finding somewhere else and having the faith in finding people I get on with again... but I know it's never as bad as the lonely climb it seems... Deep breath and perspective.

 

[meng]

Nope - How did you not guess I'm a Libra!!! (for my sins) which perhaps explains trying to balance everything out, staying middle ground until it's too late... then I also have aries ascendant and moon, which means I cannot pick my moments to be impulsive, and when I am fiery it becomes overshadowed by emotion (moon influence perhaps) and I.. cry

Ah Ha! I KNEW it! No, just kidding. But it does make sense.

 

[bamboo]

Trojan, I was not talking about anything other than the fact that Em Ching is continually talking about the "mean harsh people" she is oppressed by - repeatedly- and that to me is "victim mentality"........esp after she has gotten plenty of support and validation, not to mention encouragement to take care of herself.

I never heard victim mentality as being a new-age term..? To me, it describes an immature state of self-pity. people are mean? sure they are, get over it. Validation is only about seeing it clearly . it is not an excuse to go on feeling sorry for yourself. and if someone continues to volunteer to be a victim, then.....hey! it's "victim mentality"!

Em Ching does not sound depressed to me in any way shape or form. she is far too eager to stick up for herself when people are "harsh".............
seeks out sympathy for her stance but when anyone challenges her....as many have in this thread and in her other threads, she acts persecuted all over again. it's absurd! I think I am done with this thread!

 

[em ching]

I don't feel persecuted by people in this thread. It's interesting to hear opposing arguments and takes on things, but that has also confused me, and now that it all has come out in the open, they probably won't blatantly shun and scoff at me again, so maybe I should stay and start again.. I just feel I have made a pigs ear of things.

You're right, I have this insatiable need for reassurance and validation. I am only at peace with myself when I feel others accept me and I have good interactions with them.
But I feel that I've caused such a hoo hah that if I go back on my word and say I'd like to stay, it's going to go down hill again probably doubly fast, because I've offended them all and been such a cry baby.
Diamanda says they are bullies I should extract myself from, but there are worst things.
Others say it's all in my approach to it, and that people are like this everywhere and I just have to not think that I am so special I should be exempt. I obviously bring it to me because of my vulnerability.

I asked the Yi Can I go back?
(They asked me for a definite answer as to whether I was moving out or not and inside I felt I still really didn't know, I've lost energy and belief in anything ever being the totally right or wrong choice, but I said yes because of the awkward atmos and my feeling that I've ruined everything with them anyway, perhaps they had good intentions which I have thwarted and I think they felt sorry, even if they didn't say as much, for having put me down in the past and encouraged my sense of alienation from them as a group)

I received 3.1, 5, 6 Difficulty at the Beginning to 23 Splitting Apart.

On the face of it straight forward, it'll be difficult to find somewhere else, but you must split from them? Or it'll be difficult to get back to a comfortable place with them, but I should dispel with ideas of leaving? Though sometimes the Yi is quite detailed and precise, the whole picture of the hexagrams contain good and bad elements, making an acurate reading seem increasingly hard - the more you know, the less you know...

I really didn't intend to make out that they are monsters, because it seems irrelevant now. Perhaps what happened cleared the air, but does the answer indeed reflect that I have caused irrepairable damage, and should not mess them around further by going back on my decision? Perhaps Willowfox is right and I should not leave, because by doing so, perhaps in the future when it happens again I will think the only thing to do is run away, rather than deal with it, not take it so personally, hold my head up and just seek those that do respect me, while not being so affeced by those that don't...

Perhaps all this is a product of my ego.
I must stop.

An interpretation of the answer would be very much appreciated, but those of you who feel like you want to smash your computer in frustration kindly ignore it.. believe me this won't last forever. I'm just acutely aware that my happiness in this life depends upon my ability to make good decisions, (and relationships with other people) and I'm wondering if I'm just sabotaging myself, because I allow my insecuurities, to ruin everything, and perhaps there is a home for me here, but then perhaps they will get more and more frustrated with me if Ichange my mind and stay, especially after all that's happened.. perhaps I should live alone, perhaps that is my nature and I shouldn't force myself on groups because I don't like the pressure to conform and do as they do, perhaps because I'm an only child or pehaps because I am too different from them, and don't share their interests, and so they perceive me as not beig a team player, which they then resent because perhaps they think I am being arrogant, when really I just like spending time alone sometimes.

I feel like there's white noise in my head and I've so exausted all the possibilites that clarification on the direction the Yi is advising me to take with this answer, after all that has happened, would be so greatly appreciated, because I so don't know what is the correct way. I don't want to go against the flow and leave, if it will just be a step on a slippery downward slope, and it'll just happen again, with others, and I'll be more lonely for rejecting, probably in the end, a large group of people that I have known since living here. What is the Yi saying?

'If there is no good inside - the small man, no seeds - it falls apart and nothing remains.'
(from LiSe splitting apart) - Yes, I guess that's what it comes down to.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this

 

[willowfox]

What do you think your answer means? The answer is so obvious but can you see it? If this forum did not exist then who would answer your questions for you?

 

[em ching]

I don't know - I think I guess the answer is pointing to the fact that, if I just carry on here and not mention anything, and still it's uncomfortable, then the natural progression will be for me to leave without looking back as much, because I'll know in the end, it's been down to the fact that I just plain don't connect with them.

So I suppose only time will tell. I mean especially if they do something, that makes me feel disliked and outcast like they have done, then I'll know definitely to leave. A bit like a marriage - things fall apart and it's knowing when to walk away, and I guess waiting for a solid reason. But perhaps there is something to build on here, or at least it'd be best for me to see it through and hold my own. Perhaps the Yi, giving me that answer, is just saying that when the foundations aren't there, things will fall apart, and this may or may not be one of those instances?

Perhaps they have already but like I said, I'm not 100% sure that I should cut my losses just yet, so I guess only more time here with them, will give me conviction as to whether it can work. Something's still got to give, and I will just persevere, be myself and see how it goes, bearing in mind that if I feel bullied, I shouldn't just let them think it's not a big deal, because I feel it so deeply and it's a tendency they need to grow out of.

 

[em ching]

The answer never is obvious to me, sometimes especially when unchanging, but never yes or no. I used to think I knew exactly what the answers were but I think I was taking them for face value. For example, when I got Splitting Apart I always saw it as a negative, physically breaking away from someone or something, but then someone on here interpreted hex 23 as saying that I should stop thinking in a certain way - dispel with those thoughts and perhaps let go of the issue in question.
It's since joining this forum that the i ching has opened up for me, as being a lot more detailed and thorough than I first took it to be. Sometimes the hexagrams have too many layers! But I guess that is their nature

 

[maremaria]

Sometimes the hexagrams have too many layers! But I guess that is their nature

Frustrating, isn't it ?
Sometimes after a lot of , I try to forget the question or that i need an answer and concentrate to the line(s).

e.g. line 3.1 says

Hesitation and hindrance.
It furthers one to remain persevering.
It furthers one to appoint helpers.
IF A PERSON encounters a hindrance at the beginning of an enterprise, he must not try to force advance but must pause and take thought. However, nothing should put him off his course; he must persevere and constantly keep the goal in sight. It's important to seek out the right assistants, but he can find them only if he avoids arrogance and associates with his fellows in a spirit of humility. Only then will he attract those with whose help he can combat the difficulties

"what is the situation here ? " Is the question I do in my mind. After some time ...or a long time after the connection with my initial question start to be more visible .

Maria

 

[spica]

Hi, I guess lving with housemates isn't really a good idea. I am libra as well (god forbid)! and I empathise with what you go through. Thing is, I live with one roomie who gives me a headache, though I know how hard he tries to be nice sometimes, but next time I move, I will live ALONE! No more room mate drama, they are sidetracking you from your own life, if you don't see that. You get sucked into the drama of whether they like you etc etc. and they play havic on your psyche.

How many times have I had to tolerate my roomie bringing unwanted guests in the house who overstay their welcome? Its best to find a roomie who suits YOU, and not you them. Your place is meant for you, best to find one you're happy in. Then, see friends outside. Funny how we tend to be nicer to people we don't live with. I have ran away from psychopath roomies before because they try to manipulate me. Its easy to recognise because of that unhappiness and off-balanceness the Libra feels.

 

[em ching]

Hi,

Well I feel my head is above water now - or at least I have risen above the fact that it's not perfect - but then nothing ever is! Especially in human relationships and their complexities, and misunderstandings.. Yeah perhaps living alone is a good idea and it needn't mean lonliness! Rather more freedom, less compromise, so maybe when the tenancy is up here.. who knows.

I have re-bonded with them now I feel - though I am the odd one out, mainly probably because of my shyness (which is so annoying sometimes!), sensitive nature and a tendency to be quieter, and then my need for social approval I feel that the air has been cleared and perhaps they understand me better.

Diamanda, in this instance, I feel that I am not with cold-hearted bullies here, just people who have a different approach to me and perhaps less tolerant of 'weirdos', and who perhaps I threatened by not getting as involved with them as they expected, because of work etc. So I feel that I should stay, and nurture what is good here, which emerged over the weekend but I will be keenly aware of the need to know to resist the bullies and not think it's happening because of something being wrong in me! I will not take it as personally and feel victimised as I have in the past - people are mean but don't neccessarily always mean it personally, they have their own probs.

I will still be mindful though, and express myself when I feel mistreated, but perhaps, as I feel like I have come out the other side of this, I may have grown a thicker layer of skin, and I will check myself in future before I jump to the worst conclusion about a person and distrust everyone, assuming people aren't being genuine. Benefit of the doubt - as Willowfox said before not everyone is not out to get me! I think I now realise that..

"It's important to seek out the right assistants, but he can find them only if he avoids arrogance and associates with his fellows in a spirit of humility. Only then will he attract those with whose help he can combat the difficulties "

Yes this applies here. I will not cast them aside because they threatened me and are different types of people to me, because I see good in them and I do enjoy their company, I'm just not as free with them as I am with others that I have a better connection with.. I am aware that our differences, may still cause trouble in future, but I think the challenge here is to remain true to myself despite social pressure and just get along and be loyal to the situation.

Thanks all.

:bows:

 

[em ching]

Astrological connection?

(Taken from yasminboland.com): Passionate Mars has now entered Sagittarius, having spent the past six weeks in Scorpio. After plumbing the depths, seeing the truth and dealing with secrets, it’s time to embrace new directions and move on.

Hmm.. perhaps Mars in scorpio exasperated things...

 

[spica]

It is okay to be shy.. it is okay to be you. You are sensitive and an empath, are they? Do you feel appreicated, by the people around you? Roomieship and friendship cannot be forced. There are the intricacies of wanting to be by ourselves vs. having company. Sometimes you get cheesed off by the way they do their cooking, or the way they take your stuff up their cupboard. Where is the focus of your energies? Not them solely, I hope?

For me, I want a quiet place where i can concentrate on my work, and my roomie is nice enough, but always needs someone over and they stay 24 hours consecutively on the lounge. I hated that. You seem to be wanting intimacy with roomies.. thing is do they want it with you? Me and my roomies are seperate and since we mix culturally, there is a sense of mistrust innately. True bonding and friendship take time, and alot of understanding and respect. One is space - another - hygeine - rent - security -- food.

How are you mistreated? They mistreat you because you allow them. Your things are yours. I have given up the mindset of a beautiful world long agao after I encountered psycholpaths and those who'd rip the heart into pieces to get an edge. C'mon this is a surviving world, only those who recognise that should be appreciated. They treat you like a thug? You are not a thug, they are! Get away from them and find an abode that brings you back to yourself. Once your home life is in order, you can imagine feeling so much happier and things falling into place!

Mars in Scorpio is bringing out the primal energies. Beware of the lust vampires.

 

[Tohpol]

I have given up the mindset of a beautiful world long agao after I encountered psycholpaths and those who'd rip the heart into pieces to get an edge.

Ain't that the truth. And such an important one to grasp. I still think it's a beautiful world mind you. But not so beautiful when you've been put through the emotional shredder by folks who get a kick out of it.

Luckily it doesn't sound like em ching is ensconced with fledgling psychopaths.

Gawd knows what kind of thread that would produce! LOL.

Topal

 

[em ching]

Ok ok gloves off... I can laugh at myself too

 

[Trojina]

Yes this applies here. I will not cast them aside because they threatened me and are different types of people to me, because I see good in them and I do enjoy their company, I'm just not as free with them as I am with others that I have a better connection with.. I am aware that our differences, may still cause trouble in future, but I think the challenge here is to remain true to myself despite social pressure and just get along and be loyal to the situation.

Thanks all.

:bows:

Yes but you said this before,,,,about 10 times...and then you said the opposite about 10 times....in er several other threads Is this really it ? Can we believe you ....or is it really a case of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temaoKXSVxw

 

[Trojina]

Yes but you said this before,,,,about 10 times...and then you said the opposite about 10 times....in er several other threads Is this really it ? Can we believe you ....or is it really a case of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temaoKXSVxw

I used to singalong to this in the car. It helped on my Obsessive Compulsive days

 

[Trojina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temaoKXSVxw

it just goes over and over again roundin my head it going round overn over again overnandoveragain

 

[Trojina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=temaoKXSVxw

you when you keep retracing the same thoughts over and over same thoughts

 

[Trojina]

Actually Em as well as a decison making issue the core issue issue seems to be be trust versus mistrust. The central dilemma is "are these people goodies or baddies". Some kinds of therapist might wonder is there someone else much more significant in your life, in the past, who you can't work out whose side they are on with you...like a parent.

Not asking you, just posing a thought.

As you know as an adult most people aren't goodies or baddies. Infact i don't think anyone is though granted there are some people you'd be happier away from. But as children we can't see that so easy can we ? Just wondering if this is a child related part of you dealing with this issue...

Hey but I'm no therapist ...just being an amateur ...cos you must know by now this level of obsession with the problem has to be more than just the problem doesn't it ?

 

[em ching]

Yes, I see what you're saying and I'll suggest it to my counsellor... I suppose he hasn't been able to get to the root of my neuroses and fears of people and rejection etc because, much as I have done here , I blabber on about this or that drama during the sessions, so I'll try and keep schtum... so that perhaps I will be more relaxed and self aware in future about my approach to social situations, but I'll stop there so as not to put Nelly's song back in your head
It could be parenting, it has come up - I am a classic case, viscious cycle/ product of dysfunctional family etc... but at least I can detach myself enough from myself to begin to recognise when I'm being irrational...

Yes, the depth to which this has affected me has been scary now that I feel I am over the worst and able to look back and think that I really must not let the negativity and fear get first dibs on situations I face... Mistrust could also be my instant reaction to these sorts of things because of problems I had with school friends..

Anyway, thanks all, it has been a journey, and despite what you may think I do have perspective and I know that people worry far less than I have, about far worse situations.. but I guess on this site, I really enjoy reading everyone's input and being able to express myself and explore different angles of situations, facilitated by the Yi!

 

[diamanda]

Change your therapist.
He/she does not seem to be of any benefit to you whatsoever.
Nor do any of your friends, or the yi, or us lot here.
Seriously emching, i really think, at this stage, that noone can help you.
Only your own self.
But this seems to be one more of the sad cases where one has to learn
from very very bitter experience.

I really don't think anyone can help you.
Remember 23? Only when your whole world and soul feels 'destroyed',
that will be your only chance to really learn something, because you
never, ever seem to heed any warnings.

Really sorry to have to say that.
Brace up my friend.

 

[em ching]

I'm hoping for the best here that's all.... I can feel that I have learnt something about myself and others and I'm letting the light that there is here, in, and I don't understand why you're taking it back to something bad... they basically apologised and showed concern, and maybe things only get that bad if you let them.. And I won't be in this situation forever (where I feel my character mildly oppressed - through no fault of theirs or mine just elements of basic incompatibility), and the Yi has helped me and I have taken it's, and your advice, but yes I suppose experience is more tangible. But I do bear in mind all that you have said about how to deal with bullying, and I am still on guard against it here because I am not naive enough to think that just because it's pleasant now, doesn't mean it won't get bad again, but at the moment I do feel connected again so moving out seems irrelevant and I have outside friends and get out the house enough. I also feel strong enough to deal with it if it happens again, as badly as it did before, and I will know what to do.

:bows:

 

[em ching]

... Ok, so if you don't mind clarifying, in your opinion the answer I received to my question;
'Can I go back/ is the situation salvigable?' - 3. 1, 5, 6 to 23,

Is saying that the difficulties experienced now will lead to a split/ reckoning?
Or, that though there are difficulties here but they should be dealt with with a sense of community ie try and get on with them even if it isn't as easy as with others, and 23 perhaps saying to disperse with my worries on the situation?

I hate to do this, and Trojan's Nelly song is becoming the theme tune here, but I really am curious, and it's facilitating the learning process, of how to read the yi isn't it? Perhaps it should only be read by the asker's instinctive reaction to the meaning of the hexagrams, but then there will always be wishful thinking clouding the true meaning perhaps.. Making an objective reading from someone else more beneficial..? (I know, no straight answers, true of everything...)