Memorizing the I Ching 24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)

[dobro p]

24.3: vacillation.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 24.3

Line 3
"On the verge of returning, danger. This needs to be exorcised before returning. No fault. OR There is danger in returning too many times."

24 to 36. With/from returning (24) comes issues with uncompromising (36). If one keeps coming back to something, often done when in an uncompromising frame of mind, we wont let 'it' go, issues can develop - better to leave that something alone since it is not the 'right' time for the resolution of the issue.

the controlling hexagram for line 3 is 16 with its focus on foresight/planning etc - we can see here plans/intensions/believed-foresight that may in fact be missing something but we believe all is 'right' such that if an issue develops it is not with us it is with 'it' and we keep going back to 'fix' it and 'fix' it and 'fix' it - after all, how can WE be possibly mistaken!? (I think you can see the uncompromising nature at work here!)

To extend this, if one is uncompromising and it is reflected in repeated returns, one then needs to be uncompromising in fleshing out the issue of having to make, being driven to make, those returns. ;-) (this also gets into the need to 'finish' an argument, keep coming back to it way past its 'best before/use-by' date.)

Chris.

 

[dobro p]

Yes, I think you're closer to it with 'going back to fix it again and again' than I am with the indecisiveness of 'vacillation'. It could be either, perhaps, but I feel the meaning's more valuable if the repetition is something you're doing rather than mere indecision.

 

[rosada]

The Breeze at Dawn - Rumi

The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
Don't go back to sleep.
You must ask for what you really want.
Don't go back to sleep.
People are going back and forth across the door sill
Where the two worlds touch.
The door is round and open.
Don't go back to sleep.

 

[dobro p]

Nice Rumi poem. But I don't see its relevance to the thread.

 

[Trojina]

Look theres no 'thread law' on these threads. You already said you didn't get much out of these threads, now you have an issue with someone writing a poem that brings them a sense of 24,3 which you see no relevance in ?

Maybe thats worth more than the strange search for 'objective meaning' from an oracle that you seem to crave. If you want a totally 'objective' meaning for a line I don't think your're going to find it even if you have got a Chinese dictionary.

If whats happening here is now below your standards then don't bother with it. I feel you are looking down on people here, without any good reason in my view.

If you can't see how 24,3 relates to the poem then that is your problem.

 

[mudpie]

actually I kinda think that poem is perfect for 24.3 ....the often lifelong human tendency to keep pressing the cosmic snooze button even though the call to wake up keeps going off loud and clear

 

[rosada]

Thank you Trojan, and Listener, and thank you too, dobro for creating an opening to discuss the ideas further. I'm seeing 24 as a puzzelment because on the one hand it fits with the winter soltice, and the idea of energy returning to source, deep within the center the eartn and that gives a visual of conciousness descending into the unconcious. So the idea of staying concious while going into the world of the unconcious, while meditating, "Don't go back to sleep." Be aware of that level where concious and unconcious thoughts mingle and mix like friends going back and forth across a border. Too and fro goes the way. Don't be shy, ask for what you really want, your unconcious knows the answer and is only too ready to share,

 

[dobro p]

Look theres no 'thread law' on these threads. You already said you didn't get much out of these threads, now you have an issue with someone writing a poem that brings them a sense of 24,3 which you see no relevance in ?

Maybe thats worth more than the strange search for 'objective meaning' from an oracle that you seem to crave. If you want a totally 'objective' meaning for a line I don't think your're going to find it even if you have got a Chinese dictionary.

If whats happening here is now below your standards then don't bother with it. I feel you are looking down on people here, without any good reason in my view.

If you can't see how 24,3 relates to the poem then that is your problem.

Feeling grumpy today, huh?

Anyway, two things about what you've said - one by way of explanation, one a question. The explanation: I think that what you picked up on as my 'looking down on people' was my disappointment at not getting the insight I was looking for with 24.1. The question: don't you think it's possible to arrive at an objective meaning for the lines in the Yi the same way you arrive at an objective meaning for lots of things? I don't want a 'totally objective' meaning like you say, but I want to know what the main intended meaning of the authors was. See, I'm assuming the authors had a 'main intended meaning'. Do you think they didn't? Do you think their aim was to craft short ambiguous symbol clusters that basically just allow a person to see or project a whole variety of meanings in it?

 

[dobro p]

Thank you Trojan, and Listener, and thank you too, dobro for creating an opening to discuss the ideas further. I'm seeing 24 as a puzzelment because on the one hand it fits with the winter soltice, and the idea of energy returning to source, deep within the center the eartn and that gives a visual of conciousness descending into the unconcious. So the idea of staying concious while going into the world of the unconcious, while meditating, "Don't go back to sleep." Be aware of that level where concious and unconcious thoughts mingle and mix like friends going back and forth across a border. Too and fro goes the way. Don't be shy, ask for what you really want, your unconcious knows the answer and is only too ready to share,

Okay, I see it better now. It fits the 'dangerous, without fault' idea of 24.3 too. And the idea of consciousness slipping into unconsciousness matches the relating hex (36) (uh, sorry Bradford - tending hex lol) really well.

So... you got a Rumi poem for 24.1? (grin)

 

[Trojina]

Dobro whilst I think it is important to get as close as possible to what the authors intentions were I also think the scope of the Yi transcends those intentions in a most fabulous way . If we had to stick to authors intentions we could not even ask half the questions we do. How could we ask and get answers to romantic questions, car questions etc etc when some of these questions would be inconceivable at time of writing.

Also each line has to be interpreted poetically in order to be flexible enough to answer the million questions we might ask. BTW I came across an old thread where Hilary was talking about 24,1 and she said she thought this was a difficult line as one couldn't be sure if the return here was away from something or towards it - so you're not alone there.

To me the Yi is a spirit, an oracle, clothed in the words given by the authors but it is not their words. I'm not always sure that looking harder at their words, seeking to pin down meanings to one particular word brings one nearer understanding the Yi. Thats where i really travel in the opposite direction to Ewald, I think the more words we can ascribe to one Chinese word the better, the more understanding we have.

Yes people project any old meaning they want onto their answers, but I think they would do this even if they had had the most perfect translation ever known, people being as they are. I'm beginning to think its actually going on through these projections, asking over and over, examining things imaginatively by engaging subjectively in the Yis poetry, that maybe eventually brings people closer to meanings - as much as studying a chinese dictionary.

Nah wasn't being grumpy exactly, just seemed like you were attempting to rein people in from imaginative exploration of meanings ie sharing poems etc, in favour of what you believed to be the superior academic approach. My projection possibly :bows: peace T

 

[bruce_g]

Nah wasn't being grumpy exactly, just seemed like you were attempting to rein people in from imaginative exploration of meanings ie sharing poems etc, in favour of what you believed to be the superior academic approach. My projection possibly :bows: peace T

I rather like Hurricane Luise. I just make sure my storm coat, hat and boots are well fastened.

 

[rosada]

Sixth in the fourth place means:
Walking in the midst of others,
One returns alone.

A man is in a society composed of inferior people, but is connected spiritually with a strong and good friend, and this makes him turn back alone. Although nothing is said of reward and punishment, this return is certainly favorable, for such resolve to choose the good brings its own reward.

"Walking in the midst of others, one returns alone," and so follows the right way.
The fourth line is in the middle of the upper nuclear trigram K'un; it is moreover the top line of the lower trigram K'un and the lowest line of the upper primary trigram K'un.
In a word, it is in the midst of weak lines, and is itself compliant and in a weak place. One might infer a lack of initiative. But this line is in the relationship of corresponding to the strong nine at the beginning, hence solitary return.
- Wilhelm.

 

[rosada]

You have to walk this lonesome valley.
You have to walk it by yourself.
Oh, nobody else can walk it for you.
You have to walk it by yourself.

 

[rosada]

Well, if 24.1 is tricky because it's not really clear who we are at center, if we don't know what we are returning to, then perhaps this Rumi poem would apply:

Whatever You Really See

A human being is essentially
a spirit eye.
Whatever you really see,
you ARE that.

 

[dobro p]

Rosada, I see no inferior people in 24.4, just a crowd. The Sufis talk about the value of 'being alone in the crowd', and I've always thought it meant keeping your awareness and effort on track, not letting yourself be either distracted or swayed by 'mass mind'. The people in the crowd aren't inferior, but the state of 'herd mind' is something to be avoided if what you want is awareness and choice and development.

 

[dobro p]

Well, if 24.1 is tricky because it's not really clear who we are at center, if we don't know what we are returning to, then perhaps this Rumi poem would apply:

Whatever You Really See

A human being is essentially
a spirit eye.
Whatever you really see,
you ARE that.

I see more Hex 1 and 2 in this than 24.1 - the way the mind simultaneously creates and receptively perceives. But thanks for the Rumi material - I've never really got into Rumi, despite my interest in Sufis. The two that you've posted are good stuff.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing here, dobro, that "inferior" in it's usual application of indicating something negative is not appropriate. I think here it's like we have someone getting on a subway because going with the group is a good way to get close to your stop generally, but a time comes when you have to leave the group train and go off on your individual path to get home. The subway is not a bad way to travel, it's just not as refined and can't make the individual choices the traveler now needs to make, so he has to get off and travel on his own.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, it's about marching to the beat of your own drum, I think. It implies a willingness to be different and to be seen as different. Go your own way.

 

[Trojina]

Got 24,4 yesterday. Notice I never get it without a great sense of sadness attached for it always has related to a path or a group who I really would like to stay with, but it just doesn't fit anymore.

 

[rosada]

I think it's interesting you felt to ask for a "soundtrack" at this particular thread, trojan, which I'm seeing as being a sort of gateway between the concious and unconcious mind. Music, of course, is a well known means of communicating between those two worlds.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 24.4

Line 4
"If the path one is on keeps changing, first left and then right, never centered, then one must abandon it and return. OR One travels down a path under the influence of others. Realizing the error, one returns alone."

 

[rosada]

I grew up and spent most of my life in Southern California. The last several years however I've been bouncing all over the map, Berkeley, New Orleans, Washington. While living in Washington I've been particularly unrooted, staying awhile at "home" here, then flying back and staying awhile with my mother in Pasadena. Now today at 24.4, my husband is planning for us to take another short run to Calif. I feel like I'm always Returning. First Returning home to California, then Returning home to Washington, now Returning to California again and meanwhile unsure what home is or where I'm going to land when "the kings of antiquity close the passes." It feels like that old children's game of Statue Maker where you spin and spin while the music plays and then suddenly it stops and you have to freeze right where you are, only I have no idea when the music is going to stop and I'm getting very dizzy.

 

[rosada]

Six in the fifth place means:
Noble heartd return. No remorse.

When the time for return has come, a man should not take shelter intrivial excuses, but should look within and examine himself, And if he has done something wrong he should make a noblehearted resolve to confess his fault. No one will regret having taken this road.

Central, therefore he is able to test himself.
This line is actually very far away from the nine at the beginning. But it is central; therefore it is possible for it to test itself and thus to find a way of turning back from all mistakes. The relationship with the nine at the beginning is not suggested by any external ties, hence it represents noblehearted free decision.
--Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

A spiritual test? Free will?

 

[rosada]

Just playing with ideas here..
24.Return comes after Splitting Apart. Looking at the progression leading up to 24.. At some point in his life man gets a View(20) of more than he was prepared (19) to deal with and when he realizes what the problem is (21), if he can't solve it with his personal knowledge, Spirit must then leave the material world where the problem appears (Split) and ascend to The Higher Mind - Returns to the Father - to ask directions. So I think 24 is about that Return trip to Higher Mind we all make every
night when we go to sleep. During this time our concsious reasoning and explanations of why we did what we did, lived our lives as we did, is cut off, the gate to consciousness is closed, and our unconcious darts about revealing everything to Our Higher Self just the way it happened without restriction...bout as far as the thoughts have gotten...with no restrictions the energies can now rearrange themselves more harmoniously. In a few hours will come dawn and conciousness, like energy peing switched on, will again run through the grid. If people have been honest with themselves, they will be able to navigate 25 reasonably well.

 

[martin]

Or maybe 23 is the 'return to the Father' and 24 is reincarnation?

24 as a baby in the womb makes sense to me. 'No one to distress him in his exits and entrances' (Legge) - the baby can still leave and enter the body at will. Spirit friends come to him. In 7 days (9 months) comes his return (birth).

 

[mudpie]

I asked the Yi what *he* thought about the idea of my going to a "past life regression" workshop today...would it be a helpful thing? The reply was 24 unchanging.

I got a kick out of that. But it turned out that I did go and evn though I am not so sure how much credence I give to "past life explorations," I had a great, relaxing, meditative time and reconnected with some wonderful people I know......( and some perhaps I HAVE KNOWN BEFORE......many moons ago???!!!!

 

[rosada]

I'm intrigued by these ideas of womb and reincarnation appearing at this point. Interesting the next hexagram will be Innocence. You think of Innocence as something you have at the beginning, yet here we will be coming across it in the middle of our journey. I think of it as being somehow a reincarnation of Hex.4. But anyway, that's getting ahead of things here. Still have 24.6 to look at, not a real happy thought.

 

[rosada]

Six at the top means:
Missing the return. Misfortune.
Misfortune from within and without.
If armies are set marching in this way,
One will in the end suffer a great defeat,
Disastrous for the ruler of the country.
For ten years
It will not be possible to attack again.

If a man misses the right time for return, he meets with misfortune. The misfortune has its inner cause in a wrong attitude toward the world. The misfortune coming upon him from without results in this wrong attitude. What is pictured here is blind obstinacy and the judgement that is visited upon it.

This line is at the end of the yin lines, hence there is no turning back for it. In refusing to turn back it defiantly seeks to attain its objective by force; thereby, however, owing to inner and outer misfortune, it loses for a long time all possibility of recuperating. The top line in the hexagram K'un, THE RECEPTIVE, has a similar judgement.

This line is at the end of the yin lines, hence there is no turning back for it. In refusing to turn back it defiantly seeks to attain its objective by force; thereby, however, owing to inner and outer misfortune, it loses for a long time all possibility of recuperating. The top line in the hexagram k'un, THE RECEPTIVE, has a similar judgement.

The trigram Chen means a general, K'un means a croowd, hence "to set armies marching." K'un means nation, Chiem means ruler. Ten is the number belonging to the earth.

NOTE:
6)Missing the return
5)Noblehearted return
4)Solitary return
3)Repeated return
2)Quiet return
1)Return from a short distance.

Missing the return (six at the top) is the opposite of return from a short distance (nine at the beginning). The first line is not far off and comes back. Quiet return (six in the second place) and solitary return (six in the fourth place) resemble each other; both lines are related to the ruler of the hexagram. Repeated return (six in the third place) and noble hearted return (six in the fifth place) are opposites: in the one there is going back and forth, the other shows calm consistency.
--Wilhelm