referendum - 39 & 51

[esolo]

39 seems obvious enough: Struggle

51 is also obvious: One Big Shock.

Isn't that what "NO" voters are now experiencing? I just saw a headline about how the "NO" voters are in shock. If they're in shock then they were clueless all along.

Greece cannot stay in the Eurozone without cutting back on the bloated public sector, reforming its pension system, opening closed professions.

Tsipras lold the people that it was possible to have less "austerity" (i.e. reforms) without going back to the drachma. Why did he say this? It was never true and eventually he realized that.

A return to the drachma would not be the walk in the park that some are predicting. It would mean months without a banking system. It would mean the destruction of the country. Tsipras did the right thing in the end.

 

[anemos]

Vivian, besides what we all have experienced the past days, I remain optimistic about the future. We have a better understanding of who we are and what EU is or is not.

Esolo, if we stick only to economics and balance sheets, we might lose another big important part of the reality.

51 is repeated shocks, and what those headlines mention is just a minor one, imo.

 

[esolo]

Esolo, if we stick only to economics and balance sheets, we might lose another big important part of the reality.

It's not all about economics and balance sheets. It's about freedom. Here's what worries me:

I see a lot of people complaining about "capitalism" or "neoliberalism"(ie libertarianism) without explicitly stating what they think should replace it.

A Soviet-style command economy perhaps? That's the opposite of libertarianism. Is that what they want? If so do they realize what they're asking for? There can be no freedom in a command economy. If Greeks think they're slaves now wait until they get a command economy. Here's why:

In a command economy the government owns everything and they plan everything in advance. They plan how much X will be produced, who will produce it, where it will be produced etc. They then assign workers to the factories. They assign people to live in certain areas and to work in these factories.

It's all planned ahead of time. Everything.

That means that you can't decide to change jobs or move. After all, you're a cog in the giant machine. You're playing a role in the plan. If you step out of line the next person might decide that he wants to move from City A to City B as well. Soon, the plan begins to fall apart. Makes sense, no?

This is where a command economy descends into totalitarianism. It has to because if it doesn't people will make choices for themselves and mess up the plan. In the USSR if you didn't work you were thrown in jail. You couldn't move around freely or change jobs. Of course not because it would wreck the plan.

So, it worries me that so many people are criticizing "capitalism" (or what they think is capitalism) without understanding the horrors of the alternative. This is very dangerous.

 

[sooo]

I see a lot of people complaining about "capitalism" or "neoliberalism"(ie libertarianism) without explicitly stating what they think should replace it.

I never really understood the 'neo' prefix in some definitions. I was once called a neoconservative here. Either one is conservative or they're not. What matters more is in what ways is one conservative, liberal or libertarian. And the term 'moderate' doesn't work either because it implies wishy-washy middle-of-the-road and no actual position. So we wind up with a two party system, or more like a 2 1/2 party system, because voting libertarian is just throwing ones vote away. Extremes are the culprits which take away sound sensibility. It bugs me to hear name calling back and forth between liberals and conservatives because all that does is polarize reason. The same goes for capitalism. If capitalists are compassionate, and/or have enough incentives to release a decent portion of their earnings (i.e. tax breaks for charitable donations) to give to those in need, rather than being forced to relinquish their earnings for the sake of redistributing wealth - a radical liberal idea - then not only do the right things happen but they happen for the right reasons.

 

[Tohpol]

So, it worries me that so many people are criticizing "capitalism" (or what they think is capitalism) without understanding the horrors of the alternative. This is very dangerous.

Just because there is criticism of "capitalism" does not automatically equate with a love of socialism or god forbid - communism. The truth is that we don't have capitalism now. We have cartelism which is lawful corruption on a grand scale. And there are also many ways for totalitarianism to surface either through classic forms (Korea) and through inverted forms as developing in the USA and Europe.

There are ample alternative, creative and pragmatic visions out there if you do the research and none require the polarisation you seem to be suggesting.

I think the real issue is how ideologies become corrupted through pathological individuals. It doesn't matter what personal preferences we have for right or left. They can both be subverted toward their extremes.

 

[viviank]

Personaly I don't believe that there is a perfect political system because in the end people are the ones that apply capitalism or socialism or any other one, and people have flaws, are corrupted, serve partiqular interests! So I am with sooo here. It's up to us to do what is required, to take care those in need.

For example here in Greece in 1981 public sector was suddenly increased and also the wages of public servants by a party that represented socialism. Everyone was dreaming to be a public servant but nobody realised that this money were loans that we had to pay back sometime. Now public servants are as you know, so many in our country and very well organised. There so many that have the power to paralise the country and elect goverments. So each and every party that was elected since then, give them more and more priviligies. The same thing happened with the current goverment. So this agreement is tottally off what they promised. That's why I believe this goverment will change to a goverment that will serve national cause.

Maria I am glad that you are optimistic! I believe that there are some hard years ahead of us and I don't mind work hard to create something here, but I don't believe that Greeks can make the best choices because they never see the bigger picture. And the Greek politicians are reliable at all to say the least. So I don't share your optimism! No matter what my political views are, I want the best for my country.

I think 51 was repeated shocks indeed. Here day after day we are experiencing those shocks that's for sure. But I am glad I met so great minds, with a down to earth attitude and logic like sooo , esolo, Maria, topal and Diamanda :bows:

 

[Tohpol]

Personaly I don't believe that there is a perfect political system because in the end people are the ones that apply capitalism or socialism or any other one, and people have flaws, are corrupted, serve partiqular interests! So I am with sooo here. It's up to us to do what is required, to take care those in need.

Yes I agree. We all have flaws that's what makes us beautifully human. But we are all naturally cooperative and immensely creative. So, what is it that continually destroys any hope of long-term progress and loads the die toward dead-ends? This goes beyond political discourse.

The problem is not ordinary people it's a minority of people that are EXTRA-ordinary in their pathology and who infect any ideology from within. It only takes one individual to cause a psychological footprint so large that it can derail and subvert any movement or ideal. And s/he attracts similar, lesser nodes of anti-social personalities due to a particular "resonance". In my view, until that is firmly understood with a full awareness of its deep implications for social development - and preventative measures to ensure such people do not attain positions of power - I don't think there can be any hope of progress since the whole cycle just repeats over and over.

That said, I truly believe in people, always have. Optimistic realism!

I do think Greece will find her way and be an example to us all to make similar changes.

And on this specific point, I asked the Yi to comment and received:

64.5>6 wikiwing:

Constancy, good fortune, no regrets.
A noble one's radiance.
With truth and confidence, good fortune.
[...]

I like Hilary's description on the background Hexagram:


64 zhi Hexagram 6, Incompletion Arguing/ protesting. Maybe this works well because with an "arguing" mindset you are offering something new, an initiative to change things, and you become a centre for creating a new order - just because you have a conviction of what it should look like. Because you are, in fact, still Not Yet Across, you will really need 'constancy', and lots of it, to keep on radiating confidence in your conviction.

:bows:

 

[diamanda]

We have cartelism which is lawful corruption on a grand scale

Topal, you have completely hit the nail here! And also with your comment
on how a few psychopaths rule the rest of the world and are very infectious.
I also believe in the good nature of most people - however, good people
usually are not hungry for power - it's the psychopaths who usually are.
A bit of a dead-end...

Viviank, you are totally right, the Greek public sector became a monster since
the 80s. It's odd, however, to see the bigger picture in retrospect... Not sure how
old you are, but I was old enough in the 80s to remember that Greek farmers were
forced by the EU to burn tons and tons of (mainly) oranges every year, because
according to EU law, Greek farmers were not allowed to sell over a certain amount
of oranges. Only now I connect the two - is it a wonder people didn't want to be
farmers anymore and wanted to be civil servants instead...? For comparison, see
also how in more recent years, there has been no investments on Greek olive oil
production, at all, and the EU forces Greece to buy olive oil from Spain (although
we still do have more than enough for interior consumption).
Of course, I'm 100% with you when you say you want the best for Greece - same here!

The EU is a bizarre institution..... as we all come to realise more and more.

And over to the fresh reading from Topal!

I do think Greece will find her way and be an example to us all to make similar changes.
And on this specific point, I asked the Yi to comment and received:
64.5>6

I was hoping for an encouraging answer here.
I'm very sorry to say this, but I've seen this specific answer in action.
In my (bitter) experience it means "the light is true, but it will not work".
I truly hope i'm totally wrong in my interpretation :-/


And here is one of mine.
A question that comes straight from the heart and gives me shivers.
Please let me all know what you think.


Will they succeed in looting and deviously conquering my country?
18, lines 2,3,4,6 > 16

Corruption ends with quick steps.
Lenience and strictness in equal measures, till someone has had enough and leaves.
But resulting 16 speaks of illusion/delusion/fraud/deviousness.

I don't get it. What do yo all think?
Greece will leave the EU and get into another dodgy scheme?
Or will EU pretend that they end the corruption, and simply fool the Greeks once again?

 

[esolo]

For example here in Greece in 1981 public sector was suddenly increased and also the wages of public servants by a party that represented socialism. Everyone was dreaming to be a public servant but nobody realised that this money were loans that we had to pay back sometime.

There's a general lack of economic literacy out there. Most people couldn't explain the simple relationship between supply and demand. This is why I ranted on about a command economy in my last post. People don't realize what they're asking for when they go out in the streets and march against "capitalism".

It's impossible to have generous social programs without a lot of money coming in from somewhere. I understand that many Greeks are bewildered. Someone - and it should be the PM - needs to explain to them what happened and why the country's past "business model" wasn't sustainable. This will be hard because Tsipras - until now - appears to have believed in this losing "business model". He might even be in shock himself. From KKE youth leader to neo-liberal. This is the what the term "neoconservative" means. People who used to be leftists until they finally woke up.

 

[sooo]

A neoconservative (a term which originally refers to an American subculture of conservatism, born in the late 60's) is a conservative with the agenda to further their own nation's supremacy; which bears ironic resemblance to Stalin-ism, only the flip-side of the same ideological coin. Nationalism by another name is still nationalism. Neo-liberalism's special interest is socialism, which aims in the same direction but under an opposing banner.

If this is what you, Esolo, have implied, then you are making sense to me, especially with your reference to KKE. Otherwise, I'm afraid our understanding of the neoconservative differs.

Neo (in Greek) simply means young, or new. It is not a pure ideology but is convoluted to serve special national interests. The Iraq War was a neoconservative movement, endorsed by well known liberals, as was the Viet Nam "police action".

When will we cease to define ourselves by partisan agendas of a powerful few!

 

[esolo]

A neoconservative (a term which originally refers to an American subculture of conservatism, born in the late 60's) is a conservative with the agenda to further their own nation's supremacy; which bears ironic resemblance to Stalin-ism, only the flip-side of the same ideological coin. Nationalism by another name is still nationalism. Neo-liberalism's special interest is socialism, which aims in the same direction but under an opposing banner.

If this is what you, Esolo, have implied, then you are making sense to me, especially with your reference to KKE. Otherwise, I'm afraid our understanding of the neoconservative differs.

Neo (in Greek) simply means young, or new. It is not a pure ideology but is convoluted to serve special national interests. The Iraq War was a neoconservative movement, endorsed by well known liberals, as was the Viet Nam "police action".

When will we cease to define ourselves by partisan agendas of a powerful few!

"The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist left to the camp of American conservatism"

So, the were on the left originally. That's all I really meant with my remark.

 

[sooo]

[video]https://youtu.be/gAQcZsDzWgk?t=99[/video]

 

[Tohpol]

Neo-liberalism's special interest is socialism, which aims in the same direction but under an opposing banner.

Exactly. This is getting to the crux of the matter. Using a fusion of conservatism and socialism has always been the proverbial sheep in wolf's clothing while using the banners which hark back to an era long gone.

There's a general lack of economic literacy out there. Most people couldn't explain the simple relationship between supply and demand. This is why I ranted on about a command economy in my last post. People don't realize what they're asking for when they go out in the streets and march against "capitalism".

I hope you don’t mind if I jump in here to waffle a bit as I sup my coffee...

I think what you say about this aspect is very true. And I sympathise about the idea that socialism as a complete antidote is not constructive either. But this is all about values and I think people are protesting any way they can against corruption. Voting options are limited. Some will believe in leftist principles some will believe in sound conservatism and still more in a range of political beliefs, but the point is things cannot go on as they are. While economic literacy is useful, it isn't necessary in order to know that you've been had. If you are suggesting that somehow nations will be plunged into a dire situation because they reject the obvious corruption of the present then yes, that's very likely. But there is very little choice unless one continues to embrace the present evil which will only mean even more pain exercised through colonial rule. There is always chaos with radical change based on values rather than game theory. It's a very 46.6 situation, for sure.

It's impossible to have generous social programs without a lot of money coming in from somewhere. I understand that many Greeks are bewildered. Someone - and it should be the PM - needs to explain to them what happened and why the country's past "business model" wasn't sustainable. This will be hard because Tsipras - until now - appears to have believed in this losing "business model". He might even be in shock himself. From KKE youth leader to neo-liberal. This is the what the term "neoconservative" means. People who used to be leftists until they finally woke up.

To your initial point - absolutely agree. But it wasn't just about the sustainability of a business model. It was about the very business model itself which is set up to work in a way that could only be unsustainable for most people. In that sense, it is the livelihoods of 11 million Greek employees and small business people vs the continuing viability of the European Union and their architecture of banking cartels. Greece is a microcosm of that global economy and its inevitable change.

I think what Maria meant by balance sheets comment is reflected in the fact that €240 billion in bailouts (via European taxes) was given to Greece. But 90% of that money was funnelled into the banking and insurance cartels who sold loans and flooded the market with dodgy investments and toxic derivatives. Only around 10% went to the Greek government to prop up social welfare. This happened all over Europe and in the USA on a massive scale. And with the IMF and the World Bank whole countries are routinely raped and placed into debt and their social welfare slashed through "austerity measures" a euphemism for propping up the banks by stealing the wealth of nations. Naomi Klein calls this the “Shock Doctrine” and it is a form of financial warfare against the people.

Which is where neo-conservatism comes in…

I think you are both right as to its origins but it has a deeper academic dimension which has emerged in the last 25 years, and which has given it a dangerous zealotry and an added "Jewish" influence. William Kristol and Robert Kagan are largely responsbile, the same guys behind the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). All those signatories were neo-cons. So, neo-conservative influence, as I have come to understand it and as commonly applied in America, is actually a hotch-potch of conservative beliefs overtaken by a form of Straussian and Hegelian philosophy along with a strong Zionist component. It bears no relationship at all to the kind of conservatism as recognised by the Republican party before or since - it's an entirely different animal. It embraces an aggressive, Leninist formula which advocates taking by force, rather than the gradualism of the Fabian model. Although the standard conservative principles on fiscal policy remain they are eclipsed by a foreign policy that is deeply colonial and militaristic. The "will to power" and the "end justifies the means" are the two main pillars which this new breed of neo-cons prize most dearly. It is intense Nationalism fused with Leninism and naturally aligned to corporatism.

Remember this quote from Karl Rove?

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore." He continued "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

That pretty much sums up "neo-conservatism" though its really just a label appropriated by psychopaths. Now transpose that to economics and you have the reasons why everyone has been drawn into their Empire-based reality.


“Left wing, right wing, I am wingless and tired of trying to fly. Here comes the ground.” – Marc Maron

 

[sooo]

Esolo, in main theory, I think we're agreeing, just disagreeing on the neo-con meaning. I'm intimate with it just from having been incorrectly identified by the term. I make no apology for calling myself a conservative, but it seems to have a different perceived meaning these days from my own ideology. I'm also liberal toward certain social matters, and consider many to be too individually sensitive to sweep every case into the same pile. That's what I implied about throwing my vote away if I vote libertarian, but I can't support neoconservatives, nor democratic socialists. “Left wing, right wing, I am wingless and tired of trying to fly. Here comes the ground.” - Marc Maron; it's exactly how I feel. I imagine I'm not at all alone, not here nor in Greece.

 

[diamanda]

Update

Hi all,

An update of how most of these readings turned out.

Perhaps you have heard the news about Greece and the coming referendum. I've enquire two questions
1. Concequences of Yes : 39un
2. Concequences of No : 51un.

The result of the referendum was a ‘no’ to the memorandum.
After the ‘no’, the prime minister shocked everyone by saying ‘yes’ to the memorandum, against the people's will, and against his former promises.

Casting the coins about greek people´s consult I've got 28.2 going to 31.
(…)
Advice:
Vote "NO", say not to financial vultures.
Keys:
[*] The Old Man is the Greek People.
[*] The Young Bride is Democracy.

Right on Charly, the result was indeed no!

What's going to happen with the referendum and the economic situation of Greece?
Anwser: 42.2.5.6 to 19
.

42.2 – Greece has a new loan approved.
42.5 – Greece accepted it without questions.
42.6 – However the loan came with terms which directly attack the country’s sovereignty.
19 – in the 8th month (now!) the government just announced new elections.

What Greece have to do now (after the referendum's results)
42.2.4 > 10

42.2 – Greece got a new loan.
42.4 – Move the government and comply – the moving of sovereignty over to Europe.
10 – Step by step Greece will have to implement the new memorandum, as it turned out.

I do think Greece will find her way and be an example to us all to make similar changes.
And on this specific point, I asked the Yi to comment and received:
64.5>6

The light is true, and more conflict. I think this describes exactly what is still going on.

Will they succeed in looting and deviously conquering my country?
18, lines 2,3,4,6 > 16

‘They’ didn’t have to try hard. The prime minister, up to that point a fervent anti-memorandum guy, ended up signing whatever Europe wanted. His “anti-corruption” ideas quickly turned out to have been a fraud/illusion. 14 Greek airports are already sold to a German company, and there’s already a list with the next items for sale (electricity, water, ports – anything of value really).

I'm thinking of starting a new thread for the upcoming September elections!

 

[viviank]

Diamanda start the thread! Good idea! and a good way to learn through results!