The Bible and Yi

[meng]

I'm not angry in the least, Bob. I'm just expressing how I see these things.

 

[meng]

Time to integrate those bad experiences, learn from them and move on. Being angry all the time shows you need to work on it to regain a sense of perspective. IMO.

I had many wonderful experiences, and still do.

 

[44bob123]

Meng, I shalln't press the point except to say, if you look at how you've responded to my posts you will notice a certain "energy" in how you put things. We all have foibles, and I've had to publicly apologise for mine in the past. Faith is always a difficult topic to discuss because it links with our core sense of self.

I hope I've said some sensible things, clarified and corrected a few points based on my understanding of the gospels, as opposed to the bible as a whole or the church as a whole. In the gospels we find what Jesus said. In the rest of the New Testament we get an interpretation of this. In the church we get an interpretation of an interpretation. But it's just like the Yijing, where we need to go back behind interpretations, back to the translations and then back to what the actual ideograms mean.

IMHO. As always take it or leave it.

Bob :bows:

 

[meng]

Well, I apologize, Bob, if I came off too candid or direct. I didn't feel anger, but these all are things I don't take lightly either. Very important things to me, as well as obviously they are to you, and also to Jesed, Solun and Panther, and no doubt others.

I don't mind talking about it in straight up terms, but I recognize that it's impossible to penetrate that wall of faith which can cocoon believers.. believers in any single way as being the way. The way which can be named is not the way. Not that I disagree when Jesus said "I am the way", but over time that's come to mean different things to me. That's a living faith. That's what living things do, they change.

 

[Trojina]

I don't know of any Christian who use the Yijing. I think it would be difficult because God wants a Christian to put all his trust in Him. As Jesus said,"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", so why bother with the Yijing?

Not sure if I've been of any help. At the moment I've had an experience of God's love, which I'm trying to understand, so the Yijing seems rather boring in comparison.

Bob

I think Hilary, the owner of this site is Christian, or was, at least i thought she said she was once. Also I think Rosada, an active I Ching user here is (apologies to both if i am wrong) I myself am pretty open to Christianity..because here in UK the kind of christianity i have come across in my upbringing was just about not hurting people and tolerance and so on...nothing about damnation etc etc and I've never come across any fundamental full on types so don't connect them with my sense of Christianity at all..Just becasue you don't know any christians who consult the Yi doesn't mean there aren't any.

Re the Gods love comment, are you saying that people who use the Yi don't know Gods love If the Yi Jing seems so boring why are you spending all this time on an I Ching forum talking about it ? Just wondering ....

I guess what you are assuming is somehow people use the Yi as a kind of spiritual practice such as prayer or meditation...it isn't either of these things its consulting an oracle so why compare. I'd never expect a transcendent experience of union with God whilst tossing my coins (but who knows lol) anymore that i would doing my weekly shop at tesco (but again who knows lol)...eh that would be a sage indeed who could stay in connection with divine source whilst pushing a trolley around Tesco...Tesco in my eyes is ..the ultimate Darkness and actually the main religion of this country so i wouldn't worry about Yi tossers or christians

it seems to me that there are cristians making divination
(not just personal one, they also adress themsleves to magicians and things like this)
but maybe this is going on just in italy


!

yes i think many who would think of themselves as christians in this country would also consult the Yi

 

[meng]

I have personal faith

. In what may I ask. Personal faith is always in something is it not? Do you mean faith in yourself? In which case we all do. It's the same as saying that you value and trust yourself.

No, faith is a verb as well as a noun. I don't need some "thing" to believe in. I believe in certain principles, especially observable principles in nature. I believe in honesty, integrity and candor; I suppose those are things but not fixed in cement. They're things which require present discernment and clear thinking.

I also believe the practice of modern day Christianity is quite likely so far removed from anything Jesus taught that he wouldn't even recognize it as being associated with him or his teaching. When Jesus returns to judge in Revelations, he returns to judge the seven churches, not the Yijing forums.

 

[heylise]

the bible forbids divination (punishments going on for this) and adds : "you will not leave a single witch alive, nor their temples standying".

The bible has been on and off with divination. In the old testament they seemed to divine quite happily. But when they tell anyone to kill witches, I am happy I have the Yi. A lack of moral seems to hold more of my kind of moral than an overdose like this quote.

 

[Trojina]

Well i don't know much about the bible but it seems full of divination to me. Who were the 3 wise men if they were not diviners, astrologers in fact. Theres loads of instances of divination in the bible, signs, omens and so on.

 

[Sparhawk]

Divination, in contemporary Bible accounts and otherwise, was limited to the elite and was never intended for popular consumption. Even the poorest of Bible prophets seem to have held an important position in their society. Bible's gripe with diviners seems to be targeted to casual popular use, sans ritual and proper respect for what's on the other side of it (whatever that is...). The Three Wise Men were known as "kings" of their realms. It must also be remembered that divination in ancient China, specially in Shang and Zhou times, was limited, exclusively, to kings and the court. Its use outside of that circle was punished with death, or worse. Divination, when believed at the highest level of a given society, is thought of commanding too much power to be shared, in use, with the low levels of their social structure. Unfortunately, for our clear understanding of this simple historical fact, is our own contemporary sense of "social equality" and "equal access" to knowledge, something we may enjoy in our days, but was never available in antiquity.

 

[44bob123]

So many comments , so much vituperation, I hardly know where to begin.

I recognize that it's impossible to penetrate that wall of faith which can cocoon believers.

. Pure hysteria. How is this comment applicable to all Christians? It could be levelled at some of the replies to this thread. The wall of faith surrounding the Yijing can be just as defensive. Calm rational thinking never harmed anyone.

I also believe the practice of modern day Christianity is quite likely so far removed from anything Jesus taught that he wouldn't even recognize it as being associated with him or his teaching. When Jesus returns to judge in Revelations, he returns to judge the seven churches, not the Yijing forums.

. To a large extent I agree with this. However I am reminded that only God has the ability to judge objectively and without bias. Like Yijing practitioners, there's a wide divergence of opinion and beliefs amongst the "faithful" so who knows what's really good or bad?

In Revelations, I think you'll find Jesus judges the whole world including Yijingers?

The bible has been on and off with divination. In the old testament they seemed to divine quite happily. But when they tell anyone to kill witches, I am happy I have the Yi.

.

The bible says many things. It is a library of books, of various ages, with divergent and often contradictory ideas, but read intelligently it does make sense. The Old Testament is used to provide a background to Christian faith and much of the material is regarded as being superceded by the the coming of Jesus. As I said, the gospels are really the most important texts.

Well i don't know much about the bible but it seems full of divination to me. Who were the 3 wise men if they were not diviners, astrologers in fact. Theres loads of instances of divination in the bible, signs, omens and so on.

.

The bible is complex. To understand it in any depth one needs to look to biblical experts to unwrap ancient meanings, myths and theologies much like understanding the Yijing. There are few signs and omens in the gospels apart from the obvious one of Jesus, who was a sign from God. I, for one, take a modern position with regard to the birth stories: not historical facts but mythical expressions of faith. There are innumerable books about interpreting the bible but few people bother, including Christians. Again, just like the Yijing, you really need to have read and studied it before making superficial assertions. It cannot be picked up and understood like a school text book, nor can the Yijing.

Bob:bows:

 

[44bob123]

Hi Trojan, the thread was about the bible and the Yijing, hence my comments tried to stay within that parameter.

Just becasue you don't know any christians who consult the Yi doesn't mean there aren't any.

Agreed. If you read my post I never implied there weren't any.

Re the Gods love comment, are you saying that people who use the Yi don't know Gods love If the Yi Jing seems so boring why are you spending all this time on an I Ching forum talking about it ? Just wondering ....

I was trying to explain that a Christian may well get a sense of meeting God, and receiving God's love through reading the bible. I am not aware of the same experience happening with the Yijing. I did not imply that people who use the Yijing don't have spiritual lives. But as with any god based religion, the characteristics of the gods vary.
Yahweh, the God of the Jews and Christians is not the same as Zeus or Hecate, favoured by the Pagans. Both may experience similarities in how they experience their deities, but there would also be extreme divergencies.

If you read my other comments you will see that I said I feel I'm at a crossroad with my "spiritual" life. You will also note that I said a follower of Jesus can get answers to problems through reading the bible and prayer. Prayer being a direct contact between the person and God. Given the fact one can talk with God, why would you want to consult the Yijing?

Bob :bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Prayer being a direct contact between the person and God. Given the fact one can talk with God, why would you want to consult the Yijing?

IMHO, that begs for some questions: Who's to say God is not on the other side of the Yijing, sans the heavy weight of institutionalized dogma? Isn't consulting the Yijing a sort of prayer for a favorable outcome? Who can, irrefutably, deny that one is not talking to "God," as conceived by many monotheistic religions, when consulting the Yijing?

 

[44bob123]

Hi Sparhawk,

IMHO, that begs for some questions: Who's to say God is not on the other side of the Yijing, sans the heavy weight of institutionalized dogma? Isn't consulting the Yijing a sort of prayer for a favorable outcome? Who can, irrefutably, deny that one is not talking to "God," as conceived by many monotheistic religions, when consulting the Yijing?

heavy weight of institutionalized dogma

This is a rather insidious comment on Christian beliefs. Which Christians' belief are you referring to? Quakers, Pentecostals, Episcopaleans? There seems plenty of institutional dogma surrounding the Yijing. Witness your responses to threads, and Bradford's too. There are plenty of other examples within this forum. Christians aren't the only dogmatists.

Isn't consulting the Yijing a sort of prayer for a favorable outcome?

I suppose it could be if you considered the Yijing to be some sort of living spirit. However I was under the impression that Daoist spirits had been exorcised from the book and it was now a twentieth century form of divination. If you insist that it does have spirits, then compared to monotheistic religions they are very limited in their scope.

Who can, irrefutably, deny that one is not talking to "God,"

. Once again I'm not in a position to state any certainties. However, compared to prayer, as talking to God, it is very constrained and doesn't include the other "direction" of prayer, namely when God wants to talk to you. In fact it isn't really like prayer at all. You can't confess your "sins" or ask forgiveness when you screw up. You can't express your concern about other people and pray for healing. You can't express your joy to your God for a beautiful spring morning. Consulting the Yijing as a spiritual exercise, OK but nothing like prayer.

And a final note before I go on holiday. ompom:

The one thing I have noted with this thread is a lack of knowledge of the bible and Christianity in general. I've done a lot of work with the Yijing and feel I know a smattering. I don't have as large a library as Sparhawk, but few people do. So I can speak with some knowledge. In response I seem to be attacked by individuals whose experience of the bible and/or Christianity seems to be derived from childhood. Just like Yijing research, Christian ideas and theology move on. Get upto date if you want a fair comparison and debate!

Bob:bows::bows::bows:

 

[Trojina]

. The bible is complex. To understand it in any depth one needs to look to biblical experts to unwrap ancient meanings, myths and theologies much like understanding the Yijing. There are few signs and omens in the gospels apart from the obvious one of Jesus, who was a sign from God. I, for one, take a modern position with regard to the birth stories: not historical facts but mythical expressions of faith. There are innumerable books about interpreting the bible but few people bother, including Christians. Again, just like the Yijing, you really need to have read and studied it before making superficial assertions. It cannot be picked up and understood like a school text book, nor can the Yijing.

Bob:bows:

The bible may be complex but some of it we understand aged about 5 or 6 years old . Jesus' parables were made for ease of understanding not for academics... and there were 'wise men' obviously diviners, and there are prophets/omens and the visitation of Mary which i would find it perfectly easy to accept and don't see as 'mythical' at all. Many people experience the visitation of spirits why write it off as 'mythical' when you know the reality of it.

In short i don't accept you have to be a scholar to know or say anything about the bible anymore than i accept you have to be a scholar to connect with the I Ching or be able to use it in anyway

Have you ever had a sense of connection with the Yi.?..you always seem to talk about it from a very far away place, to be troubled by it, whilst not using it yourself ? and being 'bored' by it..? so all the time I'm wondering 'whats your point ?'...whats the point you are trying to make ?

 

[Trojina]

I was trying to explain that a Christian may well get a sense of meeting God, and receiving God's love through reading the bible. I am not aware of the same experience happening with the Yijing. I did not imply that people who use the Yijing don't have spiritual lives. But as with any god based religion, the characteristics of the gods vary.
Yahweh, the God of the Jews and Christians is not the same as Zeus or Hecate, favoured by the Pagans. Both may experience similarities in how they experience their deities, but there would also be extreme divergencies.

Mm actually i think many people do feel Gods love through consulting the Yi though they may not call it that, they feel answered and understood by some broader intelligence. The Yi isn't a 'god based religion' anyway.

If you read my other comments you will see that I said I feel I'm at a crossroad with my "spiritual" life. You will also note that I said a follower of Jesus can get answers to problems through reading the bible and prayer. Prayer being a direct contact between the person and God. Given the fact one can talk with God, why would you want to consult the Yijing?
Bob :bows:

well one can't keep bothering God with questions like "where are my keys" or "shall I buy this camera or that camera".... besides shes pretty slow to respond to these kind of queries though next time i lose my keys I'll try asking her....though i doubt she'll be interested....

 

[pantherpanther]

According to Laozi, Tao exists before the concept of God (Ti).

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the
same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another
discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the
interpretation of tongues
1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (King James Version)

Basil the Great (ca.330-379) comments, " He who receives any of these gifts does not possess it for his own sake but rather for the sake of others, so that, in the life passed in community, the operation of the Holy Spirit in the individual is at the same time necessarily transmitted to all. He who lives alone, consequently, and has, perhaps, one gift renders it ineffectual by leaving it in disuse, since it lies buried within him. How much danger there is in this all of you know who have read the Gospel. On the other hand, in the case of several persons living together, each enjoys his own gift and enhances it by giving others a share, besides reaping benefit from the gifts of others as if they were his own. "

 

[44bob123]

Hi Trojan, as I said before, people should read and understand the bible before they try and make a point.

Jesus' parables were made for ease of understanding not for academics...

Jesus's parables are not kiddies stories. They are clever and sophisticated, more like zen koans, designed to halt the listener in his tracks and get him to see in a different way. They are paradoxical pointers to the "Kingdom of God".

well one can't keep bothering God with questions like "where are my keys" or "shall I buy this camera or that camera".... besides shes pretty slow to respond to these kind of queries though next time i lose my keys I'll try asking her....though i doubt she'll be interested....

If that's what you use the Yijing for, that's your choice but it seems to be missing the point somewhat.

Mm actually i think many people do feel Gods love through consulting the Yi though they may not call it that, they feel answered and understood by some broader intelligence.

People may feel encouraged, relieved and happier after an Yijing consultation. If they feel God's love, where is the God that cause of that love, for he/she/it is not indicated or revealed in the Yijing? Similarly with feeling understood. Does the Yijing ever discuss an individual's need to be understood or indicate that this is one of its functions?
In contrast the bible does go on about relations with God, understanding, needs and wants. The psalms are classic examples of pouring out one's soul to God.

Bob:bows:

 

[44bob123]

Hi Pantherpanther, it's not often that one sees a quote from the King James version these days. However I'm not too sure what point you're making? Can you clarify.

The debate about what came first ends up in futility. The very definition of "God" is the prime causation, the beginning. Word play is for TV pundits who have nothing better to do. The important thing is always what does your following your "religious path" do to you and the world around you? By their fruits, after all.

Bob:bows:

 

[pantherpanther]

Hi Pantherpanther, it's not often that one sees a quote from the King James version these days. However I'm not too sure what point you're making? Can you clarify.

The debate about what came first ends up in futility. The very definition of "God" is the prime causation, the beginning. Word play is for TV pundits who have nothing better to do. The important thing is always what does your following your "religious path" do to you and the world around you? By their fruits, after all.

Bob:bows:

The cosmology of the Bible is essentially the same as in other traditions. For the Chinese : Heaven, Earth and Man. The New Testament story recapitulates the Egyptian mysteries, which came from previous traditions.

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojan, as I said before, people should read and understand the bible before they try and make a point.

Jesus's parables are not kiddies stories. They are clever and sophisticated, more like zen koans, designed to halt the listener in his tracks and get him to see in a different way. They are paradoxical pointers to the "Kingdom of God".

The parables are nothing like zen koans, they are pretty simple strories for the 'common man' to understand . I quote Matthew 18.3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven".. Jesus didn't say "unless you are an academic or at least a fake one, unless you can read...(and lets not forget Jesus parables would have been mainly for those who could not read) ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven !

I have to say I take exception to you telling me i may not comment on this thread unless i have read the entire bible. If you really think reading the entire bible cover to cover and making out simple parables easy enough for children and simple peasants to understand are some kind of "paradoxical pointers to the Kingdom of God" gives you some kind of psuedo superiority in this matter I have to say I think you are trying to pull a fast one frankly.

If that's what you use the Yijing for, that's your choice but it seems to be missing the point somewhat.


People may feel encouraged, relieved and happier after an Yijing consultation. If they feel God's love, where is the God that cause of that love, for he/she/it is not indicated or revealed in the Yijing? Similarly with feeling understood. Does the Yijing ever discuss an individual's need to be understood or indicate that this is one of its functions?
In contrast the bible does go on about relations with God, understanding, needs and wants. The psalms are classic examples of pouring out one's soul to God.

Bob:bows:

whats your point ? You seem to be missing the point of why anyone consults the Yi..and seem to imply we should all be reading the bible although you don't seem to understand that either.

Whatever I think theres no further point in dialogue with you so I'll leave you to it..short holiday by the way..but where compares to sunny Tamworth lol...

 

[44bob123]

To the absent Trojan.

Matthew 18.3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"..

. The quote refers to a child's trust, i.e. we are to trust in Jesus and what he says, does and offers. That is we become converted to his way and therefore enter the Kingdom. Parables are not for children but for adults asking what is the kindom like, where is it and how do I enter it.

There are plenty of good books explaining the construction and meaning of parables and how they function to make hearers think in new ways, aand thus get a glimpse of the Kingdom. "The parables of Jesus" by the Jesus Seminar is short but includes a history of parable interpretation.
If you want to understand the internal logic of a religion, you need to do some reading. In a similar fashion, just reading even Wilhelm's I Ching on its own will not give you a very deep understanding of the Yijing.

I have to say I take exception to you telling me i may not comment on this thread unless i have read the entire bible

You have mistaken me here. I didn't say read the whole bible. I think very, very few Christians have, as it's a massive tome. What I tried to indicate is you should read at least the gospels, perhaps with an upto date commentry, to see what Jesus was all about. School religious instruction lessons are not where it's at. It may be even better to talk with some practising Christians who actually follow their beliefs. We've all been brought up in a nominally Christian culture, but it bears little relationship to the faith of a believer.

Pantherpanther. Tell me more about those Egyptian mysteries. Sound suspiciously like New Age hocus pocus, but I await your reply!

Bob

 

[44bob123]

Trojan,

I think Hilary, the owner of this site is Christian, or was, at least i thought she said she was once. Also I think Rosada, an active I Ching user here is (apologies to both if i am wrong) I myself am pretty open to Christianity..because here in UK the kind of christianity i have come across in my upbringing was just about not hurting people and tolerance and so on...nothing about damnation etc etc and I've never come across any fundamental full on types so don't connect them with my sense of Christianity at all..Just becasue you don't know any christians who consult the Yi doesn't mean there aren't any.

It would be fruitful if Yijingers, who are also practising Christians, would add to this thread, as what I'm saying is just my personal opinion on the topic and it's still in the process of modification.

Bob:bows:

 

[bradford]

According to Laozi, Tao exists before the concept of God (Ti).

Not precisely. More literally:

We do not know whose child this is
(But) imagine it divinity’s (or Di's) ancestor

 

[maremaria]

Bob, what do you mean by the term “practicing Christian” ?

 

[flor05]

Hi Bob, and everyone,

I guess I would consider myself a "practicing" Christian. Of course I'm aware of many, many people that are much more devoted than me, and whose lives are closer to the model set by Jesus, which I assume is what you meant by "practicing". I'm a catholic in a catholic country, it's sort of the religion by default here .

Anyway, I had a catholic upbringing (school included), I pray every day, I go to Church and, most importanly, I BELIEVE in God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints. I feel Christian and I guess that makes me one.

I have been using the IChing for only a few months. First, I didn't really think about it. Then I started having my concerns... where do the answers come from? I guess my turning point was when, after posting a reading here, Jesed suggested I ask a question like "How do you judge my intent of..?".

It was a question I didn't feel comfortable asking. Who judges my intent? Of course, what Jesed meant was that I asked if a certain action, regardless of the actual outcome, would be essentialy good for me or not. Not if I would get what I wanted, but if I actually needed what I wanted to get. Jesed didn't means anything esoteric or occult. But that wording triggered my doubts and further reflexion.

I'm not sure where the answers come from. But I don't feel they interfere with my Christian beliefs. The IChing is a moral book. There's nothing in it that contradicts what I've learned about living a decent Christian life. If you are not supposed to know something, you won't know it by consulting the Yi, that's for sure. It only provides a frame for you to analyse things, very much like meditating. It gives you an image, you do the thinking. I've done that with the Bible before. When a situation had me very confused, I would just open the Book randonmly and read from it. Sometimes I would read something that sounded perfectly relevant, sometimes I wouldn't. But in either case, it was something that kept me thinking.

About the parables, I don't think it makes any sense to debate whether they are complex or not. Very much like the images of the Yi, they have many levels. This means that they can apply to a lot of very diverse real life situations, and can be understood (again, in different levels or -better- layers) by children AND well-educated, cultivated scholars. From the same words, each will learn something that makes sense to each, that speaks about their life and their situations. That's the beauty of them, to be relevant regardless of one's education or intelligence.

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Flor.

 

[flor05]

After posting, I realized that I was missing part of the discussion... I'm tempted to erase my comment, but I think that'd be rude.
However, I think it doesn't add much to the thread. Sorry about that. (I think I was being way too naive in my approach).

 

[jesed]

Hi Flor

1.- Once again...:bows:

2.- Jesus talked about "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold".

There are many ways to understand this statement. In ancient times (way before the division in diferent denominations), some of the Fathers understood that Christ has helped/inspired non-christian people.

For a Catholic point of view, The Second Vatican Council adressed the notion of "seeds of the Spirt" present in every other religion and good-faith people.

I mean ... there is (for catholics) only one God, of course... but this only God hasn't leave the humanity to it's own fate just beacuse they are not catholics-or christian; this only God has enlighted/inspired all other sincere religions, like budism, shinto, native american, etc. And of course, being the Yijing a sacred book, the Yijing. And this is the ground -in a catholic point of view- for ecumenism.

For a catholic point of view, the One who answers behind the Yijing is the same Holy Spirit present in the mass. Of course, many traditionalist -like Lefevre- didn't accept this and claim the Second Vatican Council is heretic.

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Sorry

The expresion is not "seeds of the Spirit", but "seeds of the Verb"

[The Council] Discover with joy and respect the seeds of the Verb, hidden in the cultures and traditions of the peoples​

​

 

[flor05]

Hi Jesed,

Thanks for your response and clarification. I guess I have sort of an "ecumenical" point of view. I respect the rest of the religions and acknowledge truth in all of them, but I choose my own faith as the truth for my life.

As far as the source of the Yijing answers... I still not dare to say it is God. However, I feel as if it is a guide that comes from him. I feel I wouldn't know anything he didn't want me to know, and if the Yi moves me to think and analyse, then that's a good thing. I would never take the answers of the Yi as the word of God, written in stone, but as another tool that is there for me to better comprehend the world. So, to me, it is not "the truth", but a way to it. One of many possible ways.

Again, this is my point of view. I'm very respectful of what others may believe or feel, and by no means I would try to impose my ideas or claim them as the right ones.
But I definitely learn from everyone's opinions here.

:bows:

 

[meng]

Thanks, Flor. This thread needed the earthy rain you've brought.

way I see it...

The most learned of an obscured subject always disagree and debate on accuracy and correctness. The Bible is especially a hot potato subject, even among the most learned. And the disagreements aren’t only the small details. Some differences are fundamental. Questions like: Can you lose your salvation or is it once and for always? Is the rapture scriptural? Big arguments rage among the churches over that puppy. Some say purely fiction, others are positive it’s forthcoming. "That's a doctrine from the pit of hell", I recall one full gospel devotee emphasizing, speaking of "those Baptists" who believe salvation can not be lost once received.

I've thoroughly indulged biblical prophecies. If they come to pass as predicted, including the return of Yeshua, I will not be surprised. If they don't, I will not be surprised. Settling my mind on a belief of what is going on takes my mind off what is going on. "A cry of alarm. Arms at evening and at night. Fear nothing." 43.2