The Bible and Yi

[lloyd]

Which in the end makes "The Portable Dragon" a delightful book, but not really an I Ching.

 

[44bob123]

I haven't read all this thread, just caught the last few bits. One thing seems to be missing from the discussion regarding the bible, is the activity of the spirit or Spirit. Unlike the Yijing, the bible cannot be understood without the influence or guidance of God's spirit. This would apply to both Jews and Christians.

The Yijing has no transcendental dimension. Unlike the bible it is not "inspired". I have no doubt of the value of the Yijing and Daoism. However to a believer, the bible will not lead to profound insights without faith. Which means approaching it with prayer, and the expectation that God will speak, as the Quakers say, "to our condition". I don't know if Yijingers pray although I think Daoists might, but that of course is another dimention. The Jew and the Christian do not have to consult the bible when perplexed and in doubt. They can pray.

Bob :bows:

 

[neegula]

I haven't read all this thread,

The Yijing has no transcendental dimension. Unlike the bible it is not "inspired". I have no doubt of the value of the Yijing and Daoism. However to a believer, the bible will not lead to profound insights without faith.
Bob :bows:

i tried to read all posts before and missed some parts because of language in difficult topics. hope i've your pardon:bows:

so:
the bible says it is forbidden for cristians to make divination, read horoscopes, so on.
bible has to be followed by faith, while Yi is showing clearly in present time (when we ask) or after (when we see maybe what we could not understand before.)
i mean that sooner or later we see that Yi is telling about "real" things and, if we Love Him/Her, after few readings we don't need any more to hold on faith to receive and share with Yi. imo.

how do christian people combine the two readings, of the bible and of the book of changements?

if this matter was already cleared up before and i didn't grasp it, please, forget my question

thank you

 

[44bob123]

Of course, (thought he after brooding over the thread for some time), it is a false dichotomy. Most Yijing users in the West have been educated in a "Christian" culture. Unless we are sociopaths we do not murder, steal, lie or seduce our neighbour's wife. We usually honour our parents. These all derive from our Judo-Christian heritage, as well as many other ethical injunctions.

So when a western individual consults the Yijing, the Judo-Christian ethos forms the background to their enquiries. I'm not sure of any overt ethical stance in the Yijing, although it does contain Neo-Confucian family values, of which I know little. However I doubt anyone on this forum would seriously ask the Yijing if it was appropriate to lie, steal or murder. It would be rather unnerving to ask the Yijing about an immoral act and see if the response was always ethical and humanitarian?

It is also interesting to note that whereas the Yijing has become popular in the West, but probably only amongst the educated middle classes, China, the birth place of the Yijing, is increasinly welcoming other faiths. For example, Wikipedia quotes 12 million Catholics and 65 million Protestants at the last count.

Interesting, eh!

Bob

 

[bradford]

For entertainment purposes only

Catholic Encyclopedia: Divination
"From a theological standpoint divination supposes the existence of devils who have great natural powers and who, actuated by jealousy of man and hatred of God, ever seek to lessen His glory and to draw man into perdition, or at least to injure him bodily, mentally, and spiritually. Divination is not, as we have seen, foretelling what comes from necessity or what generally happens, or foretelling what God reveals or what can be discovered by human effort, but it is the usurpation of knowledge of the future, i.e. arriving at it by inadequate or improper means. This knowledge is a prerogative of Divinity and so the usurper is said to divine."

 

[44bob123]

Sorry Negula, I posted my thoughts before I saw your reply.

I'm no theologian, so I can't tell you what all the bits of the bible mean. I'm aware that certain churches would want to burn Tarot cards, the Yijing and anything to do with divination. In the Old Testament this was because Yahweh was a jealous god, but I think the reason today is because divination is unnecessary for a Christian. If you pray, meditate, read the bible and put your faith in God, then there is no need. God will provide the answers and will guide, sustain and be with you.

I don't know of any Christian who use the Yijing. I think it would be difficult because God wants a Christian to put all his trust in Him. As Jesus said,"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", so why bother with the Yijing?

Not sure if I've been of any help. At the moment I've had an experience of God's love, which I'm trying to understand, so the Yijing seems rather boring in comparison.

Bob

 

[neegula]

Unless we are sociopaths we do not murder, steal, lie or seduce our neighbour's wife. We usually honour our parents. These all derive from our Judo-Christian heritage, as well as many other ethical injunctions.

It is also interesting to note that whereas the Yijing has become popular in the West, but probably only amogst the educated middle classes, China, the birth place of the Yijing, is increasinly welcoming other faiths. For example, Wikipedia quotes 12 million Catholics and 65 million Protestants at the last count.

is it there a law in china that forbids wellcoming other "faiths"?
as far as i know old china could put on the same "altar" the tao image, the buddha and different "saints" as soon as someone was sharing new form of religion or spirituality with chinese people.

on the contrary i'm very sure that the bible forbids divination (punishments going on for this) and adds : "you will not leave a single witch alive, nor their temples standying". no matter if the seer respects all other ethical injunctions.
you see what i mean? hope i explained and will understand coming posts

 

[44bob123]

Sorry Bradford, I think few educated Catholics and fewer educated Protestants would hold to that definition. Yes, the fundamentalists would of course, but Christianity is such a broad stream you can find some really really weird beliefs. A bit like the wide beliefs of Daoists, perhaps.

Bob

 

[44bob123]

Hi Neegula, as I said I'm no expert so I can't explain it all.

The mention of witches is in the Old Testament if I recall. However, the bible is a library with books from different ages with different ideas. It is a continual unfolding of God's revelation which continues right up to the present. So some bits are more important than others.

To a Christian, the most important "bits" are the gospels as they show us what Jesus was like. I don't think he said anything about witches or divination. He was far more concerned with the fact that if people wanted to really live, to be alive and joyful, in his words to enter "The Kindom of God", they should follow him and change their priorities.

Bob

 

[bradford]

Sorry Bradford, I think few educated Catholics and fewer educated Protestants would hold to that definition. Bob

"Entertainment purposes only" doesn't require rebuttal

 

[44bob123]

Bradford, I can't see what's entertaining about a quote from the Catholic Encyclopaedia at that point ? I though people were seriously trying to understand the juxtaposition of bible and divination? Was it time for for a commercial break?

Bob

 

[neegula]

I don't know of any Christian who use the Yijing.

it seems to me that there are cristians making divination
(not just personal one, they also adress themsleves to magicians and things like this)
but maybe this is going on just in italy

Hi Neegula, as I said I'm no expert so I can't explain it all.

The mention of witches is in the Old Testament if I recall.

To a Christian, the most important "bits" are the gospels as they show us what Jesus was like. I don't think he said anything about witches or divination.

Bob

i don't thinks that cristians can saparate new from old testament in their respectance to faith.
no, i don't think Jesus (if he had ever existed) would burn his time to talk against someone/something.

At the moment I've had an experience of God's love,

Bob

all the blessing!

 

[neegula]

For entertainment purposes only

Catholic Encyclopedia: Divination

thanks bradford for this post, it was very difficult for me trying to put down bible' words in english!

 

[44bob123]

Hi Neegula,

People are people are people.
We are all different and understand our faiths, beliefs and philosphies in different ways even from those we feel closest to. So there should be no surprise about what people do.
Follow your heart and you shouldn't go far wrong!

(I must stop this. I sound like a preacher!!)

Bob:bows:

 

[jesed]

I don't know of any Christian who use the Yijing.

Oh.. I know A LOT of them !! and from all the scope of christianity: from catholics, to lutherans to greek orthodox.

 

[meng]

I haven't read all this thread, just caught the last few bits. One thing seems to be missing from the discussion regarding the bible, is the activity of the spirit or Spirit. Unlike the Yijing, the bible cannot be understood without the influence or guidance of God's spirit. This would apply to both Jews and Christians.

The Yijing has no transcendental dimension. Unlike the bible it is not "inspired". I have no doubt of the value of the Yijing and Daoism. However to a believer, the bible will not lead to profound insights without faith. Which means approaching it with prayer, and the expectation that God will speak, as the Quakers say, "to our condition". I don't know if Yijingers pray although I think Daoists might, but that of course is another dimention. The Jew and the Christian do not have to consult the bible when perplexed and in doubt. They can pray.

Bob :bows:

*blinks*

Part of belief is the belief that no one but those who believe the same belief takes part in the Spirit. That's just a bubble, Bob. Nothing is that is not Spirit.

 

[neegula]

Nothing is that is not Spirit.

thanks for this sentence:bows:

 

[44bob123]

Meng, I never mentioned the word "belief", which is of course simply an intellectual assent to some proposition. However I did mention believer. Perhaps, as it causes problems, I should replace it with follower.

Faith is a different matter. As far as I undertand it, and I'm no expert, faith is the same as trusting.
So faith in a god or Jesus or an Yijing reading, is the same as saying that you trust in your god, Jesus or the Yijing to make sense of your life there and then. You trust it or him or whatever, because when you tried it and trusted it before, it worked, and therefor proved itself or himself as trustworthy.

Does that make sense?

Meng,
If you say that everything is spirit, then of course you're saying nothing. My dog is spirit, my car is spirit etc etc. Such all embracing statements provide no real information. When I mentioned spirit I was referring to what Christians call the Paraclete or Holy Spirit, which is how God connects with humans. I don't particularly like the concept of the Trinity and would prefer, when talking of the action of the Holy Spirit, to simply talk about God. But it's a matter of words rather than a difference in reality.

Bob

 

[maremaria]

I don't know of any Christian who use the Yijing. I think it would be difficult because God wants a Christian to put all his trust in Him. As Jesus said,"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", so why bother with the Yijing?


Bob

Hi Bod,

I'm not sure if i have understand what you mean here ? Care to explain ?

I’ve been raised as a Christian Orthodox (Greek) and I don’t really see a conflict, perhaps because I haven’t read a lot the books , but my impression is that God doesn’t really care whether I’m using Yi or not. Personally, with Yi I have found a way to understand God , a way to “unite” and there are many times I’ve been “inspired”. I believe to a god within, and my belief till now, is that without that god within there is no way or it’s not easy to connect with the God.

ps. As Jesus said,"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", this I guess it supposed to be said like line 61.2 , but the way I've been teached by some people , it it presented in another way.

 

[44bob123]

Hi Maremaria, the river is wide and my boat is small so I can only tell you how far I've paddled.

When Jesus wanted to think things through he went alone to a quiet place to pray. This occurs a few times in the gospels. Of course as a Jew he also went to the synagogue and no doubt read the Torah, as he was well versed in it and quoted it readily. He also told us to call God "Abba", or Dad. He tells us to follow him and do likewise. We follow his example because he shows us how to do it, the "Way".

To me all this points to needing a personal relationship with God. When a Christian reads the bible, it's not a book of advice, admonitions or guidance. It is God, the Father, having an intimate conversation with him/her.

If you're so close to God when reading the bible and so close and intimate when you pray, where is the need to consult the Yijing to sort out a problem? "Knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will find ". And my favourite parable, the prodigal son says it all. Before you even start to ask God to help, with whatever difficulties you have, he's already rushing to you with open arms. All he asks is for us to trust him.

If I'm over the top with my reply, sorry.

I've just read the start of the thread, which I should have done in the first place. Just a note for Meng. Read Heaton's book on the Old Testament prophets. They never predict the future, they're always showing the consequences of not following God. Just as the Yijing shows what will happen, if one continues with a inappropriate course of action in a given set of circumstances.

Bob

 

[jesed]

Hi Bob

To "show" the future consequences of following (or not following) some path is a way to predict the future. As much as weather pronostic is other way to predict the future.

Basic, isn't?

 

[44bob123]

But unlike the popular conception of predicting the future, where it is pre-ordained and unalterable, the future is actually dependent on your choices. That was the only point I was making.

The prophets were primarily interested in getting people to change their behaviour. Just emphasising cause and effect, maybe.

Bob

 

[44bob123]

Jesed, let me at this ungodly house (4.18 am) respond to your comment (135), and expand on why religious individuals tend not to bother with divination.

To follow a guru, or a Zen master or Jesus or Yahweh is a total commitment of body, soul and mind as it is often said. Unless you are fully committed, unless you have thrown yourself completely into your god, guru or whatever, you are only playing at it. Much of Western civilisation is toying with beliefs on a pick-and-mix basis.

Jesus said that if anyone wanted to follow him they had to give up everything. (He didn't joke when he said a rich man couldn't get into heaven. Rich Christians are a contradiction in terms). To be a disciple of a Jesus or a guru or Zen master is to be completely focussed and dedicated. Therefore no religious person, as I've just described, would bother with divination. It might not necessarily be outlawed or discouraged. It would simply be irrelevant.

It all boils down to what sort of life do you want, and what will satisfy your spirit.



Hence, if you know Christians who do use divination, then I'd probably say they haven't committed themselves to Jesus. I'm no better than them, for at the moment I've lots of I Ching books as well as magic, witchcraft,and comparative religion. However I feel I'm at a crossroad and if I really want to love and be loved by God, then they might all have to go.

Bob:bows:

 

[jesed]

A lot of dogma and assumptions in your comment.

1.- Many of the people I know are HIGHLY commited to Jesus, at least in the way they understand Christ's work in the Universe.
2.- Are you saying that only the people who belives in Jesus -in similar ways than you - can love and be loved by God? Ok.. enough christian superiority for me.

I'll leave you in peace, knowing that the apostles didn't really committed themselves to Jesus
"And they cast their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles" Acts 1, 21

 

[44bob123]

Hi Jesed,

1.- Many of the people I know are HIGHLY commited to Jesus, at least in the way they understand Christ's work in the Universe.

.
All the points I've made are straight out of the New Testament gospels. Jesus re-emphasised the first commandment: love God with all your being. He said if you wanted to be his disciple then you had to give up everything. He said no man could serve two masters. He used the word repent or "metanoia", which is a complete change in direction in one's life. He told would-be disciples to count the cost first before they followed him.

2

.- Are you saying that only the people who belives in Jesus -in similar ways than you - can love and be loved by God? Ok.. enough christian superiority for me.

. Once again I have only lifted the information from the gospels. Jews would understand God's love in a similar, but different way. However in both cases it's similarly demanding. Love God before all else, and love your neighbour as yourself. There are many ways to love /be loved by God, but the bible specifies certain demands. If you're a Muslim or Sikh then, of course, it may be different, but you'd have to ask a Muslim or a Sikh.

The High Priest would cast lots to make decisions in the Old Testament. I'm not sure if modern Jews still do.

You quote the case of choosing Matthias by lots. The disciples were unable to decide who should be chosen, so they let God (random selection) make the choice. I think this is the only example in the New Testament. Some Christians have used this method on other occasions, usually where they want God to decide for them. However it is rare and the usual process is reading the scriptures and prayer. It is noticeable that lots are only used to make decisions, which is not quite the same as divination in the full sense of the word. They are only asking for a yes or no, not any other information.

I hope I've made myself clearer. You can always check for yourself in the gospels.

If you still have difficulties believing that Jesus makes huge demands on his disciples, and invarably we all fail, have a word with your Christian friends.

Bob

 

[meng]

Meng, I never mentioned the word "belief", which is of course simply an intellectual assent to some proposition. However I did mention believer. Perhaps, as it causes problems, I should replace it with follower.

Faith is a different matter. As far as I undertand it, and I'm no expert, faith is the same as trusting.
So faith in a god or Jesus or an Yijing reading, is the same as saying that you trust in your god, Jesus or the Yijing to make sense of your life there and then. You trust it or him or whatever, because when you tried it and trusted it before, it worked, and therefor proved itself or himself as trustworthy.

Does that make sense?

Meng,
If you say that everything is spirit, then of course you're saying nothing. My dog is spirit, my car is spirit etc etc. Such all embracing statements provide no real information. When I mentioned spirit I was referring to what Christians call the Paraclete or Holy Spirit, which is how God connects with humans. I don't particularly like the concept of the Trinity and would prefer, when talking of the action of the Holy Spirit, to simply talk about God. But it's a matter of words rather than a difference in reality.

Bob

Gosh, Bob. No, it doesn't make sense. A belief is a fixed form of faith, such as the exclusive beliefs you have been expressing here.

I have personal faith, which I keep in a state of 64, not in a locked up and crystallized state of 63. Faith can live well in 64, but once a firm belief forms, it's becomes 63: a dogma.

Further, "intellectual assent" (a common Christian put down of those using cerebral facilities) has nothing to do with belief. The term (cliche) is used to describe those who, in place of faith, rely exclusively on their own cognition. Not such a bad thing as it's made out to be by those who prefer to be told what to believe.

You say that to say everything is Spirit is saying nothing. Is it saying more to say Spirit gives exclusive membership rights to those with particular beliefs? Would your son or daughter be disowned if they believed otherwise?

 

[44bob123]

Hi Meng,

A belief is a fixed form of faith, such as the exclusive beliefs you have been expressing here

. Please read what I actually said. Faith, in the context of Jesus and religious belief in general, is about trusting the object of your faith and therefor being committed to it. Belief is an intellectual agreement with something without necessarily any emotional involvement or commitment. For example, I believe the earth is round not flat. Either way it doesn't really matter to me. I have faith that my wife won't commit adultery. This involves both my emotions and my trust in her. There is a big difference between the two concepts as any dictionary will show.

They are exclusive of course. Only Christians can have Christian faith (belief if you prefer) after all.

I have personal faith,

. In what may I ask. Personal faith is always in something is it not? Do you mean faith in yourself? In which case we all do. It's the same as saying that you value and trust yourself.

"intellectual assent" (a common Christian put down of those using cerebral facilities)

. It means what it says, see above. I'm not aware of it being a common Christian put down, nor am I aware that Christians fail to use their minds as you seem to imply. (I wonder where that prejudice comes from?) There have been some pretty heavy weight Christian thinkers over the centuries!

The term (cliche) is used to describe those who, in place of faith, rely exclusively on their own cognition. Not such a bad thing as it's made out to be by those who prefer to be told what to believe

. You compare "own cognition" with being told what to do. As far as I know Christians, I'm not so sure about other faiths, are not told what to do or believe. To have faith is to be invited to follow your god/guru/Jesus. There are no demands about what you should do beyond the fundamentals which I've already expressed. For a Christian love God and your neighbour. Everthing else stems from those fundamentals. Of course church hierarchies are a different kettle of fish and what they expect will vary from one church to the next. I have a great respect for Quakers in this repect as they don't impose. Ultimately what you do and believe is a result of your interaction with your god/guru/Jesus or whatever.

You say that to say everything is Spirit is saying nothing. Is it saying more to say Spirit gives exclusive membership rights to those with particular beliefs? Would your son or daughter be disowned if they believed otherwise?

.
To say that everything is spirit says as much as saying everything is made of energy or atoms. So what, it doesn't tell me anything new and is therefore a redundant comment.

As for exclusive membership rights? If you want to follow Jesus and receive his spirit, then you have to follow Jesus. It's as logical as that. If you want to be a Daoist you have to join a group of Daoists. You go where you feel most comfortable or where you feel you will gain the most. Your life, your choice. If you feel spirit is found in nature, you could join the Pagans or not.

No one can determine your beliefs nor your faith. You don't have to join anything or do anthing. It'a all down to you.

Bob:bows:

 

[44bob123]

Post Scriptum
Last bit of me sermon as this ain't the right forum to expound "the faith" as understood by bob.

All this talk is of course just intellectual talk. The very essence of Christianity is orthopraxis not orthodoxy. It is the doing God's will not the talking and debating about it. God doesn't need good debaters, he wants activists. Hence the parable of the good samaritan. You don't need a PhD to be a Christian. You don't even need to be able to spell your own name. You just need to understand what it entails to love your neighbour, and then go out and do it.

There's nothing like reading Mark's gospel to get a sense of what I've been saying.

Bob :bows:

 

[meng]

You don't have to join anything or do anthing. It'a all down to you.

Well, we at least agree on that.

To say that everything is spirit says as much as saying everything is made of energy or atoms. So what, it doesn't tell me anything new and is therefore a redundant comment.

Why should it tell you something new, and why does that invalidate the statement? You say so what, but if energy and atoms are not of Spirit, what are they? What's so special about your (or your belief's) version of the (Holy) Spirit, other than it's exclusivity to those who except Jesus into their hearts and their personal lord and savior? That's an exclusive club, a single bubble in an awfully big creation. But, hey, I totally bought into that bubble for 20 years, so I understand how convinced people can become. It's that convinced state that I'm referring to as belief, not the kind of theoretic belief you've referred to, but something which has been committed to and decided upon, once and for all.

 

[44bob123]

Meng, I think you need to calm down before you burst a blood vessel. I've tried to explain what I mean and you're just ignoring it and blasting me with some anger from I don't know where. What is the problem?

Just re-read your comments. I guess you had a tough time with some Christians in the past and now you're tarring everyone with the same brush. If I based my opinion of the Yijing on what occurs in the posts on this forum I'd end up with a pretty jaundiced view of both the book and the people who use it.

Time to integrate those bad experiences, learn from them and move on. Being angry all the time shows you need to work on it to regain a sense of perspective. IMO.

Bob