The I Ching Community's highest potential

[em ching]

Just to say wow that initial reading of 4.5 is brilliant. And changing to dispersion I think saying the objective of online clarity is to disperse advice and knowledge - and of course reflecting those who selflessly answer and help with our problems or readings are dispersing themselves (hats off to you .

I also agree with maremaria: What distinguish a teacher from an information-provider is wisdom, imo.
because some very sharp and clever people can be narrow-minded and imperial - which I think is the antithesis of wisdom

Great answer anyway - people seeking guidance 'in an unassuming way' which is what mostly happens with the shared readings - so I think clarity is reaching it's potential! But does the answer say there is one to rule them all? (teacher that is...) hmm...

:bows:

 

[maremaria]

Its ok Dora, I was out too.

Well, this is how I see it till now, in a very simplistic way.

Note :A big maybe goes at the beginning of each thought.

Knowledge ( meaningful information) is what comes from outside inside us. Its more intellectual ,it has to do mostly with the mind. Wisdom is what comes out from within us.

My belief, is that, within us there is a mine of wisdom and a teacher is the one helps us to find the entrance. We all have times we hear something for the first time and strike us as a bold of lightening, which ( that new thing) in a strange way sounds very very familiar to us and we find ourselves stunned because we can't really explain it. After the first shock, we say “well, I knew that” and I believe that we really knew that.

The more we amass knowledge the less left to gather. The more things we discover in that mine, we realize how little we know. Knowledge is a tool that helps us digging; wisdom is what lies inside that mine and what we manage to bring out. And I’m not underestimate the significance of “knowledge”. One might say that teachers are those give us the tools. Yes they are, but my definition of a teacher is the one that help me remember that mine.

Maria

P.S. when i was thinking that in my car sounded more clear.

 

[rodaki]

no, not simplistic at all Maria, very thought provoking for me . .
I like very much the in-and-out scheme you described (oh how am I tempted to use a breathing metaphor for it )
Would it be fair to say that the mine of wisdom you mention goes that deep as to be common property? the ground on which all genuine insight comes from?

Knowledge is a tool that helps us digging;

yes, totally agree! knowledge is a tool . . There are among us those that have spent good part of their lives perfecting such tools, opening up great furrows, entry points for the rest of us to more readily access the depths and treasures they have uncovered by their toil
and then there are those of us who have more primitive tools in our hands, we'll go out in the field and look around, try to learn by imitating those who know, play around with some tools offered, sometimes make huge mistakes in using them, sometimes come across a small discovery that will become perhaps the place where we will start digging our own way, sometimes come across some real gold (beginners' luck perhaps)

and then there is another thing that might happen . . digging side by side we might feel that one messes up another's work . . that is an issue I've come across lot's in the university . . and it runs the risk of turning furrows into trenches
what is the optimum way for both sides to handle the delicacy of this scenario?
or, in another case, when someone new on the field comes across something . . what is the best way to evaluate that? it might not be supported by years of work, so should it be judged on equal terms with findings uncovered in great furrows? or not?

 

[meng]

trench work

Maria and Dora,

In complete candor, I've received more from your last posts than from any alleged "learned ones" on this forum this morning. lol

Even the most learned have to reckon sooner or later with the hard realities of experience before they know intimately the subject of their expertise. And even then, one never knows anything in a complete way.

This goes to Maria's comment on knowledge and wisdom. Though words like wisdom, spiritual and enlightenment do not exactly roll off my tongue easily, I believe that what Maria calls wisdom is actually synonymous with experience. That is to say that knowledge had become actualized in real life applications; not in the sweet philosophical by and by, but in the nasty drudges of here and now. From out of that mess may be found a gem, to carry along as part of you for the rest of your life. Then others may say you have wisdom, and you'll correct them, saying it's just a little experience.

 

[maremaria]

Would it be fair to say that the mine of wisdom you mention goes that deep as to be common property? the ground on which all genuine insight comes from?

Yes Dora, I think so. You are talking about the 48 Well, yes ?.I didn't want to use it at this stage of discussion so thats why I called it mine, lol .

Meng yes, this is how I used the word wisdom. A bit allergic to big words too.
Wisdom as accumulated experience vs knowledge as accumulated information.
Learning vs memorizing. What we learn, especially in the hard way is difficult to ever forget. On the other hand what has been memorized it easily can be forgotten.

But how clear is the line between personal and collective ? Is there a wall between them ? if yes, isn’t digging the same as demolishing that wall ? From what moment we start counting our experience ?


And what role teachers really play in that ?

In Campbel’s hero journey there is a time the hero meets the old wise man, a mentor, the one has been before to the place the hero just enters.
So, what is a teacher ?

 

[rodaki]

yes, I guess 48 could be another way to name it, although I too liked more 'mine', it left me more space to think around it

still more great food for thought to sink in (ears are still pricked up . . )

 

[meng]

In Campbel’s hero journey there is a time the hero meets the old wise man, a mentor, the one has been before to the place the hero just enters.

Like the Tarot's Hermit archetype, it belongs to the collective, as you'd mentioned earlier. The teacher within. And as you've also already pointed out, the inner teacher is sometimes affirmed by someone outwardly. But the danger here is in transference of ownership to the other person that which really was only affirmed.

 

[meng]

"After a long and busy lifetime, building, creating, loving, hating, fighting, compromising, failing, succeeding, the Fool feels a profound need to retreat. In a small, rustic home deep in the woods, he hides, reading, cleaning, organizing, resting or just thinking. But every night at dusk he heads out, traveling across the bare, autumnal landscape. He carries only a staff and a lantern.

It is during these restless walks from dusk till dawn, peering at and examining whatever takes his fancy, that he sees and realizes things he's missed, about himself and the world. It is as if the secret corners in his head were being slowly illuminated; corners he never knew existed. In a way, he has become the Fool again; as in the beginning, he goes wherever inspiration leads him. But as the Fool, his staff rested on his shoulder, carrying unseen his pack. The Fool was like the pack, whatever it was he could be was wrapped up, unknown. The Hermit's staff leans out before him, not behind. And it carries a lantern, not a pack. The Hermit is like the lantern, illuminated from within by all he is."

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/basics/hermit.shtml

 

[meng]

So, the pack follows the lantern.

 

[maremaria]

So, the pack follows the lantern.

 

[rodaki]

Like the Tarot's Hermit archetype, it belongs to the collective, as you'd mentioned earlier. The teacher within. And as you've also already pointed out, the inner teacher is sometimes affirmed by someone outwardly. But the danger here is in transference of ownership to the other person that which really was only affirmed.

So, the pack follows the lantern.

but who knows what the pack carries? could there be a lantern waiting to be put together and light one's way?

I was especially intrigued by the two underlined passages in the first quote . .
if what we are talking about belongs to the collective, how can there be a transference of ownership? I can understand how one owns the tools he/she has refined and expanded through practice, but these are the tools (information, technique, skill) not the gem . .

I was watching a documentary in tv earlier and there was a retired fisherman talking about how he loved to paint when he was young. He started working at sea when he was 13 so he didn't have any time to paint, nor did he ever talk about it to his kids or friends . . After retiring, he made a painting as a gift to one of his grand children. His kids saw the painting and were enthused. They went back to him and told him that he should paint more paintings and they would put them in their houses. The man went on saying 'and so it came about, since my kids wanted paintings, I started to paint again . .'
now he has a room filled with paintings, some of them depicting very intense experiences he had in his life. The documentary ended with him saying how he saw many things at sea, so, at least, he has some stories to say to his grandkids . .

I was awestruck by this man . . he made me think that we are all 'packs' waiting to be led by some light and maybe we are all lanterns unknowingly inspiring someone's unpacking . . not owning light but producing its effect in meeting and interacting
(sounds idealistic I guess . . )

(probably off topic but the lantern and the pack also reminded me one of my readings: 2.2,4 to 40)

 

[meng]

but who knows what the pack carries? could there be a lantern waiting to be put together and light one's way?

The Fool was like the pack, whatever it was he could be was wrapped up, unknown.

Exactly.

I was especially intrigued by the two underlined passages in the first quote . .
if what we are talking about belongs to the collective, how can there be a transference of ownership? I can understand how one owns the tools he/she has refined and expanded through practice, but these are the tools (information, technique, skill) not the gem . .

They're two different things. Transference referred to someone outside yourself, someone who affirms your inner teacher/Hermit. The archetype Hermit belongs to the collective, and exists in both you and the outside one who affirms the teacher in you.

Your documentary story reminds me of LiSe's hex 32 commentary.

"A young man decided to leave the world of society. He started to fish for eel as a living. Every day he fished for bait and prepared his lines, 1100 hooks. The first day he caught many eels, but after that - never again anything. He kept going on and on for 2 years, every day putting out his lines.
Now he is an artist, famous for his etchings of fishing boats and the harbor. More than 20 years later he learned the cause of catching no eel: he did not pickle the lines, so the eel smelled death and stayed away.
His dedication did not change, and it brought him what belongs to him, even if it did not make any sense rationally."

 

[rodaki]

They're two different things. Transference referred to someone outside yourself, someone who affirms your inner teacher/Hermit. The archetype Hermit belongs to the collective, and exists in both you and the outside one who affirms the teacher in you.

Hilary's new post on fu made me go back and read again hex 61:

An egg is hollow. The light-giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened
Wilhelm

 

[meng]

heh, you read my mind. I didn't see Hilary's 61 post, but I was thinking 61 when I wrote that.

 

[rodaki]

heh

 

[my_key]

Meng / rodaki / Maremaria

There are some really great thought provoking comments in what you have posted here. Some observations

Teachings - Someone elses truth that may also become ours. An offering that on occassions we may not be wise to recieve.
Knowledge - Outside truths that we accumulate inside through experience. Rests in the mind. Coveted by the Ego.
Wisdom - Inner Truths that flow out from our consciousness. Rests in the heart. Honoured by the soul.

Paying attention to too many teachings and too much knowledge does not always leave enough room for wisdom to shine through.

Somewhere else rodaki made a comment recently about " a thinking heart and a feeling mind" -perhaps a good combination for wisdom to show itself through.

Mike

 

[maremaria]

Hi Mike

Teachings - Someone elses truth that may also become ours. An offering that on occassions we may not be wise to recieve.

Mike

... or its already ours truth. Its the times that the other talks to you and you hear your own voice talking. 61 creates the space for such interactions, as earlier said.

Maria

 

[fkegan]

What is the ultimate potential for I Ching Clarity: A fourness developing its Crown..

the intention and vision for this place (all the forums, including Shared Readings) I asked Yi to show me its highest potential.

Yi says -
4.5 to 59

Hi All,

A small digression back to the original question to the Yi Oracle and its answer.

The intention and vision of this place (web site) as shown as its highest potential by the Oracle. To me the precise wording of the question highlighted a question of "highest potential' which in terms of Sequence numbering would be a 9th hexagram in the sets of 10.
The Resultant hexagram is hex59, the 9th hexagram of the final complete set of 10 in the Yi Sequence. Hex59 in Flux Tome Names: Solution (by trigrams: Streaks Over Depths)

Solution as either the chemist's solution where the solvent has broken the physical bonds apart and released the essential ingredients to the highly reactive and refined state OR

The mathematician's result or final proof or explanation.

Or the human satisfaction of coming to resolution of whatever problem or issue was brought to the community.

However, hex59 is not a final quiescent state. In this decad that is hex60 where the flowing water meets the Planet Earth Topography to form the deep Lake (or in global terms Universal Sea Level). So this is hex is the high-energy opposite to that final resting result. Not a solution as satisfying release of all tensions, but the solution that opens up opportunities from prior frozen positions to new interactions.

It is the Solution that expresses one perspective completely but also highlights what other Solutions and perspectives and thus further interaction there can be as well.

But that is the Resultant, the goal toward which the Oracle points. The initial Oracle hexagram is hex4, and in terms of decad, the fourth hexagram is the 4-dot on the dice cube: the initial statement of boundary points forming an image or possible territory yet open to much further development within that outer shell or figure.

As to current dynamic within that Oracle hexagram, line 5 is the focus-developing open Yin line place that is stepping out of the overall background matrix to express itself. It is not an already formed fifth place expression of the Will, but a developing organizing principle, like Lao Tzu poem 11: Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub. [et seq.]

The corresponding Sabian Symbol in terms of the set of 360 Zodiac degrees matched to the 360 Yi lines in order from hexagram 3 to 62, with hex3 line1 set to 1 Cancer: 11 Cancer:

A clown is making merry, gently caricaturing all manners of human traits with his grimace and pantomime

Or in terms of structural line position: The fifth line place

The Crown of anything integrates the pieces and directs their overall development.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Oh, gnash... I had a post ready to go with quotations compiled and responses interspersed and all that, and then I had a blue screen.


And now I have no time left... but the gist was that what Frank mentioned about a commentary for each hexagram and line based entirely on experiences is the original idea for WikiWing, and what it's growing into - slowly...

The Yi of questions - that would be an 'Exploring divination' enterprise, wouldn't it, like Rosada's 'memorising' threads? (Does she get a bouquet or a small tropical island or something at 64 line 6?)

 

[rodaki]

hi Frank,

I sometimes have trouble in wading through your prose but I found your analysis of the reading (especially of 59) very helpful. I don't really get the Sabian symbols part but it's a terra incognita in general for me and it's still not time -if it ever is- to extend my knowledge towards this area . .
:bows:

 

[rodaki]

crossed posts with Hilary ..
hope you'll be able sometime soon to re-write your post Hilary . . it's a pity it got lost

 

[fkegan]

hi Frank,

I sometimes have trouble in wading through your prose but I found your analysis of the reading (especially of 59) very helpful. I don't really get the Sabian symbols part but it's a terra incognita in general for me and it's still not time -if it ever is- to extend my knowledge towards this area . .
:bows:

Hi Dora,
I got a fortune cookie recently advocating that I develop more "simplicity of style" it is a difficult new task for me who learned law Latin quotes at the dinner table at age 3 or 4.

The Sabian Symbols are mystical images associated to each degree of each sign of the Zodiac, so they tend to be terra incognita to everyone. However, the images as poetry work well as little snapshots of insight.

In this case the line 5 of hex 4, Wilhelm says, "childlike folly brings good fortune". The Sabian Symbol puts that into a more contemporary image with the clown's imitating a young child imitating the people in the room.

And now I have no time left... but the gist was that what Frank mentioned about a commentary for each hexagram and line based entirely on experiences is the original idea for WikiWing, and what it's growing into - slowly...

The Yi of questions - that would be an 'Exploring divination' enterprise, wouldn't it, like Rosada's 'memorising' threads? (Does she get a bouquet or a small tropical island or something at 64 line 6?)

Hi Hillary,

Sorry to hear about your computer misfortunes. There is an eclipse in the offing and such things tend to disrupt computer electronics.

The WikiWing has been growing since the second century BCE to judge from the fragments found in tombs in the articles Luis' cited in his thread titled Ancient Yin/Yang Concepts, but actually about their version of the WikiWing buried in fortune teller tombs.

The prize for completing hex 64.6 should be the opportunity to launch a new thread going through the hexagrams from hex1.1 not just to memorize the Wilhelm but go beyond...and as is developing there now...other folks carrying on the thread while she takes time off.

Which also might be an option for your poll about more moderation in general. As the folks involved get more moderate and more committed to carrying on the forums than there are more options for you to take up other interests of yours here than just putting out brush fires and flame outs.

 

[my_key]

Hi Mike


... or its already ours truth. Its the times that the other talks to you and you hear your own voice talking. 61 creates the space for such interactions, as earlier said.

Maria

Hi Maria
Ah yes........ I'd forgotten that possibility.
Thank you
Mike

 

[maremaria]

Hi Maria
Ah yes........ I'd forgotten that possibility.
Thank you
Mike

lol, this happens a looooooooooot to me. Bruised forehead

 

[maremaria]

The Missing Piece Meets the Big O

or

The missing Piece Meets the Big O

 

[rodaki]

The Missing Piece Meets the Big O

or

The missing Piece Meets the Big O

just beautiful!!
thank you Maria