The Ukraine conflict: Solution ? Hex. 50.2.3>35

[surnevs]

Following Alfred Huang's * link to The Cauldron associated with Establishing the New (after in the Sequence having Abolished the Old, hex. 49) the solution would neither be to seek a new alliance, the old being with the USSR, Eastward nor Westward but to establish itself as an independent, neutral state.

---
*) The Complete I Ching, Inner Traditions International, U.S. 1998

 

[Olga Super Star]

But Ukraine is already independent!

 

[surnevs]

Yes, it's complicated. And if it declared itself Neutral? Or, is it already?
I'm not sure if my interpretation of hex. 50 is right in this connection. Just that what Alfred Huang speaks about the Ding (Ting, Cauldron) were that it was connected with the establishment of the new Capital whenever the king moved. I see here the new Capital as Ukraine being neither in alliance with the West nor the East (Europe/Nato vs. Russia).

 

[Olga Super Star]

I don't think it's a matter between East and West and choosing where to stay, but more of having borders being questioned by a third country. I may be wrong and am not so much politically involved and updated, but I don't see it as an area of Ukraine claiming its own independence, more as a third country claiming a territory back. At least that's what we get from the news here.

 

[my_key]

The Ukraine conflict: Solution ? Hex. 50.2.3>35​

The current Ukraine conflict is held within a space that is advancing previously unnoticed events such that they are now 'living in the daylight' (35). Emerging thus, the light will become the vessel in which they are held and through which there will be a 'grasping of renewal' (50). In 'Establishing the New' (50) the deep challenge for any solution comes from the nuclear Hex 43 (Eliminating) from where the calling comes to remain strong through standing in power and virtue while extending strength and support to those below.

To bring this solution about -

50.2 - During the reorganisation towards harmony, be cautious of a friend who has an illness that stops him from approaching. Such caution brings good fortune.

50.3 - To make real progress requires ceasing chewing just on the 'pheasant fat'; stepping down from holding the moral high ground, and especially to listen out carefully for the first drops of rain that will help wash the old away. In this way the vessel will produce a rebalancing and a new way to emerge.

I see this as saying the solution lies in less posturing and instead engage with more empathic connection.

... or it might be nothing like this at all.

 

[surnevs]

my_key, your interpretation seems good to me. Maybe I was caught in A. Huang's notice [hex. 50] on the history concerning the cauldron and its traditional use a bit too much.

 

[surnevs]

Olga Super Star, the way I personally look at it Russia don't want Nato too close. Maybe an old worry going back to Napoleon and Hitler. But I really don't know how Russians take it. Just something I remember from my school time. It was mentioned often that Russia's experience with the West in history had its dark sides. Two things I've never been clever at is politic and economy. So I would prefer to stay out of such discussions.

 

[Trojina]

Two things I've never been clever at is politic and economy. So I would prefer to stay out of such discussions.

But this doesn't make sense. You have asked a political question so you have to understand the politics to some extent surely, you can't go on with the reading without knowing about the situation. Also if you aren't involved with the politics why would you ask the question?

I am definitely not clever at politics nor even Ukrainian politics even though my father was Ukrainian but he was fighting the Russians for his country back in the 1940s and it just goes on because Russia wants the Ukraine and wants it's resources. The Ukraine is an independent country and so it should be. You said

Yes, it's complicated. And if it declared itself Neutral? Or, is it already?

How do you mean neutral? Isn't that like asking 'is the UK neutral?' it's a country like Denmark or France or any other country. Perhaps you mean by 'neutral' that it won't push to go into Nato to keep Russia happy. That is what is said on the mainstream news here.

I know very little but if you aren't clear about the political situation how can you understand the answer?

I see this as saying the solution lies in less posturing and instead engage with more empathic connection.

In real terms, in the real world ,in the real political situation, how do you see that suggestion applying? Putin gets counselling or something?

So you aren't referring to the real political solution to avoidance of war but just that everybody be a bit nicer. That's not a solution is it it's just a sentiment made from a great distance.

 

[my_key]

In real terms, in the real world ,in the real political situation, how do you see that suggestion applying? Putin gets counselling or something?

It is not the role I have taken on here to give an opinion on how to apply the reading. My role is purely that of an interpreter. Offering insight based in my conversation with Yi.

So you aren't referring to the real political solution to avoidance of war but just that everybody be a bit nicer. That's not a solution is it it's just a sentiment made from a great distance.

I am answering the question posed as I see it within 50:2.3 <> 35. The question posed was a very loose affair so I would say that the interpretation I see in the consultation is one solution. I'll leave it to others to express the practicalities of this possible solution or to see alternative solutions in the response surnevs obtained from Yi.

As an addendum, your questions have taken me towards looking a bit closer -

50.2 alternates to 18 meaning 'there will be stability'
50.3 alternates to 23 meaning 'something is rotten'

So the steps of change point towards stability first and then working on the thing that is rotten.
Perhaps reinforcing the idea of a step back from posturing and then an emphasis on connection via a diplomatic solution to follow.

Who knows? It'll be interesting to see what does transpire and how accurate this interpretation or that offered by anyone else is.

As I make no claim as to the accuracy or correctness of any of my offered interpretations I'll close as I always do with....

.... or it might meaning nothing like this at all.

 

[my_key]

my_key, your interpretation seems good to me. Maybe I was caught in A. Huang's notice [hex. 50] on the history concerning the cauldron and its traditional use a bit too much.

Huang says that 50 originally denoted an ancient Chinese sacrificial vessel that held food for the ancestors in temple based rituals. With 50 following on from 49, which denotes all sorts of ways of making way for the new and 49 being especially powered when these ways are based on removing silt gathered over a long time at the bottom of the well (48), there does look to long arms reaching back into abolishing the aspects of past which no longer hold meaning.

So just by looking at the hexagrams through the short sequence of 50, 49 and then 48, I would agree there is a strong connection between Establishing the New resulting from Abolishing the Old, and I would add, in a way that stems from a historical (ancestral) context of Replenishing that which has become exhausted.

Like you, I hold no real political insights on this situation. The little I know of its history is around being ruled by various powers over the centuries until merging into USSR and then independence when the Soviet Union became un-glued. Current Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe and has a real problem with internal corruption. That forms the boundary of my economic insights.

I think I'll stick with neutral I Ching interpretations. Much less complicated.

 

[Trojina]

There is no such thing as a 'neutral I Ching interpretation'. You don't give neutral interpretations any more than anyone does it just likely feels that you do. We all feel we do as we don't notice our own bias or lack self awareness of that bias. You placed your own values onto the cast with disapproval of 'posturing' and the belief that all issues can be resolved by a touch of 'empathy' or on a psychological level.

The very idea of doing a 'neutral' reading with this political issue or any other really is quite unrealistic. If one has watched the news one will have an opinion of some sort even if one doesn't know it.

It is not the role I have taken on here to give an opinion on how to apply the reading. My role is purely that of an interpreter. Offering insight based in my conversation with Yi.

An interpreter applies the reading to the situation. You spoke as if it were just a question of behaving a bit better whereas this is a complex political situation.

Who knows? It'll be interesting to see what does transpire and how accurate this interpretation or that offered by others is.

Actually I find it too serious a matter to merely find it 'interesting'. People's lives are at risk, it's a very sad situation.

 

[my_key]

There is no such thing as a 'neutral I Ching interpretation'. You don't give neutral interpretations any more than anyone does it just likely feels that you do. We all feel we do as we don't notice our own bias. You placed your own values onto the cast with disapproval of 'posturing' and the belief that all issues can be resolved by a touch of 'empathy' or on a psychological level.

The very idea of doing a 'neutral' reading with this political issue or any other really is quite unrealistic. If one has watched the news one will have an opinion of some sort even if one doesn't know it.

An interpreter applies the reading to the situation. You spoke as if it were just a question of behaving a bit better whereas this is a complex political situation.

Actually I find it too serious a matter to merely find it 'interesting'. People's lives are at risk, it's a very sad situation.

There is a seriousness held in what is happening in Ukraine, that's for sure. I agree with you whole heartedly on that,

As I mentioned in the other thread Opinion Vs Interpretation in Moderation it is difficult not to flavour any interpretation one makes of another person's question. I make no apology for doing that.

If you are looking to revisit themes voiced in Opinion Vs Interpretation and you see what I have written as opinion, then that is how you see what I have written. I see a flavouring based on my previous life experiences and it is this flavouring that makes it my interpretation.

My final words in the previous post, which seem to have caused you some consternation deserve attention.

I see this as saying the solution lies in less posturing and instead engage with more empathic connection.

Nowhere does this declare a 'disapproval' of posturing, rather, only that it should be lessened. Neither does it demonstrate your generalisation of my holding a "belief that all issues can be resolved by a touch of 'empathy' ". I am only offering what I saw in this interpretation. Nothing beyond this single reading on the role of empathy in other situations. Your extrapolations do not resonate with me as containing the same intent of meaning that were offered in my words for surnevs enquiry.

I have explained all I really need to from my perspective, and if what I have said before does not satisfy you, and if you are unable to align yourself with what I have written in this post, then you will have to remain unsatisfied.

As for the rest of what you have written, these are all your views and opinions and you are perfectly entitled to voice them.

Good Luck

 

[Trojina]

It's okay Mykey I'm not expecting you to explain any further, you are answering Sernevs not me after all, it's just given the scale and the seriousness of the issue this seemed, well quite a disconnect to me

I see this as saying the solution lies in less posturing and instead engage with more empathic connection.

...but I wasn't meaning to make a complaint of it. Sorry if it came over that way.

Like you, I hold no real political insights on this situation.

I'm not great at the politics nor the history but my father lived in exile in the UK most of his life being unable to return to his own country, the Ukraine, never to see his family or his home again, because he had fought the Russians. He died a few years before Ukraine gained independence. So I have a feel of it because I was surrounded by the sense of what it means to be denied your home land. Now they are threatened again. I guess I felt it would take more than a bit of empathy to help things that's all.

 

[surnevs]

Trojina, with neutral I mean neither to lean military on to the East nor to the West. Had the Cauldron been moved from the old capital to the new it could point in this connection with Ukraine keeping a military alliance but just now with the West (or a whole other alliance for that matter). The Cauldron was made brand new as the new Capital was established which I see in the comparison, the situation today, that all alliances are to be abolished and neutrality, military independence, established. And my insight into politics is like most people, no need to have real insight if having no authority (Insight without authority is a lot of talks, nothing more). My take on it is irrelevant. That does not mean I'm not occupied with thinking what a solution might be. And in this state of mind, I asked the I Ching. To see. Not to claim.
And You are right, that if I have no political wish for clarification then why ask at all. Often when I post here it's caused by a wish to understand the I Ching. I'm still a newbie. And I feel very nervous about this conflict.

 

[my_key]

It's okay Mykey I'm not expecting you to explain any further, you are answering Sernevs not me after all, it's just given the scale and the seriousness of the issue this seemed, well quite a disconnect to me


...but I wasn't meaning to make a complaint of it. Sorry if it came over that way.

It did carry that charge for me......

I'm not great at the politics nor the history but my father lived in exile in the UK most of his life being unable to return to his own country, the Ukraine, never to see his family or his home again, because he had fought the Russians. He died a few years before Ukraine gained independence. So I have a feel of it because I was surrounded by the sense of what it means to be denied your home land. Now they are threatened again. I guess I felt it would take more than a bit of empathy to help things that's all.

.... however having read this I can empathise with how the current conflict is touching you on deeper ancestral levels. Levels held within your family history, That sense you hold of being 'denied your homeland' runs deep. It is no wonder that the current echoes are bringing that closer to the surface for you.

Your sharing this has helped me understand. Thank you.

 

[isacosmo]

How do you like it!

 

[Trojina]

I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[surnevs]

isacosmo, if You refers to the one who started this thread if he feels comfortable sitting at a good distance from the conflict, I may say that I don't feel good at it. The leaders who must find a solution hopefully will yet to me they seem to be a bit bewildered which I understand, the complexity of the situation in mind. If they can't it's bad. Could it be that the I Ching could?

 

[surnevs]

My_key, on #5 "..... the deep challenge for any solution comes from the nuclear Hex 43 (Eliminating) from where the calling comes to remain strong ....." it stroked me, with the different translations of the hexagram Tag's that in Zhu Xi's commentaries to the I Ching * , the Tag is Resolving, which got a different take to the situation / gives it a different light. I know that this is a discussion on it's own ie which translation fit's the true meaning of those hexagram names or ancient chinese Ideograph's. Just that the tag Resolving resonated the initial question: "Solution ?"
But: just a notice
-----
*) The original meaning of the Yijing, Zhu Xi, tr. Joseph Adler, Columbia University Press, N.Y. 2020

 

[isacosmo]

isacosmo, if You refers to the one who started this thread if he feels comfortable sitting at a good distance from the conflict, I may say that I don't feel good at it. The leaders who must find a solution hopefully will yet to me they seem to be a bit bewildered which I understand, the complexity of the situation in mind. If they can't it's bad. Could it be that the I Ching could?

Oh, I didn't mean anything like u enjoying it... I just pointed out to the query developments. Maybe I used a wrong English expression ("how do you like it"). I meant smthing like "do the developments about yr query have been clarified". That's what I meant.
Incidently, today the Donbass evacuation has started


One thing tho: the only ones who are enjoying this tension are the warlords (aka Atlanticists) and their minions. The rest of us are just worried and revolted with this "cum false flag" operation.

 

[Trojina]

Oh, I didn't mean anything like u enjoying it... I just pointed out to the query developments. Maybe I used a wrong English expression ("how do you like it"). I meant smthing like "do the developments about yr query have been clarified". That's what I meant.
Incidently, today the Donbass evacuation has started

Yes, 'how do you like it' was puzzling there. It could have been taken as 'how would you like it!' which is like saying 'you wouldn't like this if it happened to you!' or it could be simply saying 'how do you like it' as in 'is this to your taste?' . I guess you were asking Sernevs what he felt about his replies so far.

One thing tho: the only ones who are enjoying this tension are the warlords (aka Atlanticists) and their minions. The rest of us are just worried and revolted with this "cum false flag"

I didn't know what an 'Atlanticist' was

Atlanticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From there

Atlanticism, also known as Transatlanticism,[1] is the belief in or support for a close relationship between peoples and governments in Northern America (United States, Canada) and those in Europe (European Union, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Norway), regarding political, economic, and defence issues. It seeks to maintain the security and prosperity of the participating countries and protect liberal democracy and the values that unite them. The term derives from the Atlantic Ocean that separates Northern America from Europe.

So if Atlanticism is the union of the US and Europe in support of liberal democracy (and through the above definition looks a good thing) who are the 'warlords' who enjoy the tension?

It's not very clear what you're trying to say?

 

[surnevs]

Whatever the solution is, the interpretation of the I Ching reading is the primary here and the subject (in this case a conflict) is secondary. Had my question been raised in a political forum, of course then the actual conflict had got the primary place. I don't think any of us are "cold" to the actual conflict but the main subject is the I Ching.

 

[Trojina]

Whatever the solution is, the interpretation of the I Ching reading is the primary here and the subject (in this case a conflict) is secondary. Had my question been raised in a political forum, of course then the actual conflict had got the primary place. I don't think any of us are "cold" to the actual conflict but the main subject is the I Ching.

I disagree there even can be I Ching readings completely disassociated from actual politics and the views of the querent. I will start a separate thread with my views on that in Open Space later on perhaps so as not to derail this one.

 

[rosada]

Playing around with what the hexagrams might mean..

Ukraine conflict solution:
50.
Like a Caldron, boundaries encompass random individuals and transform them into a country, something whole and sacred.
Judgement:
Countries are created by God and are a Good Thing.

Image:
Wise people make their borders and laws clear thus assuring their country survives.

50.2
The Ukraine is not created out of random, foreign, imposed boundaries. It has a soul.
The neighboring countries worry but the Ukraine is protected by God.
The enemies cannot touch it.

50.4
Upset. Dignity soiled.

Could this refer to Biden revealing the West knows Russia has been lying and plans to attack?
Could this mean that the neighbors, the world community, shame Putin into standing down?

35. for the resulting hexagram could emphasize that the Ukraine conflict solution comes about as a result of the truth about lies and bad behavior coming out in the open, thus shaming world leaders to shape up.

 

[surnevs]

Trojina, My_key (on #5) and Rosada, here (on #24) are giving interpretations "in accordance with tradition" or how predictions should be made. I agree that "...... I Ching readings [can't] completely [be] disassociated from actual politics and the views of the querent. ..... " (#24)
My interpretation wasn't, as their interpretations, quite in accordance with how a reading shall be interpreted. I Ching showed me a cauldron and I looked at the Ideograph and read the history of it and from there drawing my conclusions which, I won't deny, was sort of coloured by my own point of view.
I do think that the I is on one hand outside my personal view and in a way but also part of it "in my little world" meaning that my interpretations shows often more about me than it shows the response from the I itself. (I think )
-------------
edited #25 to #24
and the last reference should of course be #23 likewise......

 

[isacosmo]

Hello Trojina,
I didn't know there were 'fact checkers' for The Saker. I always thought it a decent alternative source of information, and I linked the news about what is happening in the Ukraine/Donbass region. Pepe Escobar is a known international correspondent... But I do understand. We are very much surrounded by oficial narratives. It is difficult to read other interpretations.
I live in Latin America, so I must read alternative sources, because I know what we have been through for what -- 4 centuries... And the Big Guys always meddle, and win.
Sorry guys for meddling into EU/US matters.

 

[my_key]

My_key, on #5 "..... the deep challenge for any solution comes from the nuclear Hex 43 (Eliminating) from where the calling comes to remain strong ....." it stroked me, with the different translations of the hexagram Tag's that in Zhu Xi's commentaries to the I Ching * , the Tag is Resolving, which got a different take to the situation / gives it a different light. I know that this is a discussion on it's own ie which translation fit's the true meaning of those hexagram names or ancient chinese Ideograph's. Just that the tag Resolving resonated the initial question: "Solution ?"
But: just a notice
-----
*) The original meaning of the Yijing, Zhu Xi, tr. Joseph Adler, Columbia University Press, N.Y. 2020

Yes, it is very easy to get a different flavour from the titles that are chosen for a hexagram. Huang's title, Eliminating resonated for me on this occasion as he champions that held within the hexagram is a charge to 'take resolute actions to eliminate negative forces'. This perspective is not a million miles away from your preferred tag of Resolving.

I do not have access to Adler's translation but would hope at some point in the future I can see more of his hexagram titles.

Good Luck

 

[my_key]

My interpretation wasn't, as their interpretations, quite in accordance with how a reading shall be interpreted. I Ching showed me a cauldron and I looked at the Ideograph and read the history of it and from there drawing my conclusions which, I won't deny, was sort of coloured by my own point of view.

For me you make the divination and a meaning / answer comes to you. Whether you use traditional ways of interpreting or the meaning just jumps out at you from an image, or the history of the ideograph or you use the sequence, or you use the pair, or you just work with the trigrams. It matters not. All roads lead to Rome: a reading that makes some meaning for you.

And of course our interpretations will always be flavoured by our life experiences and by our own points of view.

 

[surnevs]

Yes, it is very easy to get a different flavour from the titles that are chosen for a hexagram. Huang's title, Eliminating resonated for me on this occasion as he champions that held within the hexagram is a charge to 'take resolute actions to eliminate negative forces'. This perspective is not a million miles away from your preferred tag of Resolving.

I do not have access to Adler's translation but would hope at some point in the future I can see more of his hexagram titles.

Good Luck

It's the first translation into English published quite recently: 2020! Probably not many, even here in this forum who have seen it - yet.

 

[Olga Super Star]

the solution would neither be to seek a new alliance, the old being with the USSR, Eastward nor Westward but to establish itself as an independent, neutral state.

Surnevs I delved into the matter more and I now understand what you meant. I was lacking some knowledge of past events.
I agree the first step towards peace would be for Ukraine to remain neutral, but that does not seem to be the case.
I am not sure 50 relates to Ukraine though, since you asked for a solution, not specifically what Ukraine should be doing.