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lenardthefast
visitor
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Hi Val,
The PIZZA DELIVERY BOY? ...Gosh, I guess the land of Virgins has finally claimed another victim. You had best pack your bags and head due west immediately. Oh, and take two aspirin before going to bed.
Namaste,
Leonard
The PIZZA DELIVERY BOY? ...Gosh, I guess the land of Virgins has finally claimed another victim. You had best pack your bags and head due west immediately. Oh, and take two aspirin before going to bed.
Namaste,
Leonard
cal val
visitor
- Joined
- Apr 30, 1971
- Messages
- 1,507
- Reaction score
- 20
Gene...
We're talking PMS here...BOTH! But which came first? The urge for the pizza? Or the urge for the pizza delivery boy?
And how do we transcend? Why that's easy! Go out shopping for hollow point bullets and chocolate ice cream instead.
Val
We're talking PMS here...BOTH! But which came first? The urge for the pizza? Or the urge for the pizza delivery boy?
And how do we transcend? Why that's easy! Go out shopping for hollow point bullets and chocolate ice cream instead.
Val
martin
(deceased)
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1971
- Messages
- 2,705
- Reaction score
- 61
Now what about that pizza girl, Val?
Come on, Leonard, get off my, ahem, tail!
While I'm writing this I get new mail.
It's spam, titled "the secret of sex appeal"!!
Martin
Come on, Leonard, get off my, ahem, tail!
While I'm writing this I get new mail.
It's spam, titled "the secret of sex appeal"!!
Martin
I personally have found that dealing with the ego is a daily , almost moment to moment job.
One of the best ways I have found to limit its destructiveness is to realise that there is a difference between 'reacting' to life and 'responding' to life. Where the ego is the 'reacter' , our higher mind the 'responder'. The difference is subtle but incredibly powerfull. Its the difference between lashing out at someone for offending you in some way, and alternatively taking a little time, to think, formulate and deliver a response. The outcome is always better from this type of calm response (for both parties).
My view is that by understanding this difference in approach one starts to understand what cliches like 'living in the moment' and 'letting things flow' really mean.
Actually the 'taking a little time' before speaking technique I have found has had an incredible effect on my private and business relationships. People tend to take you a little more seriously because they know that what their getting is a response not a reaction. (and that can be really good for the ego)!
One of the best ways I have found to limit its destructiveness is to realise that there is a difference between 'reacting' to life and 'responding' to life. Where the ego is the 'reacter' , our higher mind the 'responder'. The difference is subtle but incredibly powerfull. Its the difference between lashing out at someone for offending you in some way, and alternatively taking a little time, to think, formulate and deliver a response. The outcome is always better from this type of calm response (for both parties).
My view is that by understanding this difference in approach one starts to understand what cliches like 'living in the moment' and 'letting things flow' really mean.
Actually the 'taking a little time' before speaking technique I have found has had an incredible effect on my private and business relationships. People tend to take you a little more seriously because they know that what their getting is a response not a reaction. (and that can be really good for the ego)!
Hello there,
I appreciate much of the sharing here. Thank you. So as not to leave the impression that the methods and goals of meditation that have been discussed here are the only possibilities of meditation, I want to briefly share my own practice and experience of nearly 6 years.
My practice is really two practices: I both study and practice Kabbalistic meditation (from Jewish mystical tradition) and Vipassana meditation (from Buddhism.) The lineage of vipassana I practice is Theravedan, which comes from Tibet.
Both of these practices have the same goal, which is complete openness to what is happening in the moment. There is no effort, attempt, nor desire to change, manipulate, get rid of, make smaller, alter, adjust, or limit. There is only the continuous practice of opennes and presence. Even the most experienced practitioners must remind themselves numerous times a day to "drop" into the present moment. The Buddha himself said there is no enlightenment -- that's the enlightenment! So there isn't an end goal, there isn't a final destination. These traditions do not attempt to control the mind, shrink the ego, or eliminate the libido. Rather, they are about being open to, welcoming, and walking along side whatever is happening. This is presence.
Just like with chocolate, these meditation traditions do not seek to control sexual desire, however in being truly present one does come to know when such desire is just simple sexuality, and when it's an expression of the need to self comfort (just like the food.) Chocolate and sex (both great things!) are also top on the list of ways we deceive ourselves, comfort ourselves, medicate ourselves, and take ourselves away from the present moment. They can be avoidance tactics -- ways to deflect the energy away from what's really happening and what we're really feeling.
I do not write from a place of profound theory, if I did this would be far more eloquant. I write from my own experience of having lived this path, of currently living this path. I have found that reading about it, and living it, to be very different. Thanks for listening.
I appreciate much of the sharing here. Thank you. So as not to leave the impression that the methods and goals of meditation that have been discussed here are the only possibilities of meditation, I want to briefly share my own practice and experience of nearly 6 years.
My practice is really two practices: I both study and practice Kabbalistic meditation (from Jewish mystical tradition) and Vipassana meditation (from Buddhism.) The lineage of vipassana I practice is Theravedan, which comes from Tibet.
Both of these practices have the same goal, which is complete openness to what is happening in the moment. There is no effort, attempt, nor desire to change, manipulate, get rid of, make smaller, alter, adjust, or limit. There is only the continuous practice of opennes and presence. Even the most experienced practitioners must remind themselves numerous times a day to "drop" into the present moment. The Buddha himself said there is no enlightenment -- that's the enlightenment! So there isn't an end goal, there isn't a final destination. These traditions do not attempt to control the mind, shrink the ego, or eliminate the libido. Rather, they are about being open to, welcoming, and walking along side whatever is happening. This is presence.
Just like with chocolate, these meditation traditions do not seek to control sexual desire, however in being truly present one does come to know when such desire is just simple sexuality, and when it's an expression of the need to self comfort (just like the food.) Chocolate and sex (both great things!) are also top on the list of ways we deceive ourselves, comfort ourselves, medicate ourselves, and take ourselves away from the present moment. They can be avoidance tactics -- ways to deflect the energy away from what's really happening and what we're really feeling.
I do not write from a place of profound theory, if I did this would be far more eloquant. I write from my own experience of having lived this path, of currently living this path. I have found that reading about it, and living it, to be very different. Thanks for listening.
Frandoch,
I like what you said about the way to test attachment - can you be in the present when you meet someone you've had an unpleasant experience with? Hey! I now can! And that's most amazing to me. And I've learned how to do that from my Sensei- who is married with kids. She became Sensei after being married by the way. None of the senseis marry after they dedicate themselves.
And celibacy is definitely required and adhered to.
In fact, I used to think that sex and sexual thoughts keep one looking young. But there are other ways to do that as I can see with my spiritual teachers! Meditation is certainly one of them and this I do every day. So is being veg, among other things. Ah yes and green tea too.
Malka, liked your post too about Buddhism.
Best for your Quest
Anita
I like what you said about the way to test attachment - can you be in the present when you meet someone you've had an unpleasant experience with? Hey! I now can! And that's most amazing to me. And I've learned how to do that from my Sensei- who is married with kids. She became Sensei after being married by the way. None of the senseis marry after they dedicate themselves.
And celibacy is definitely required and adhered to.
In fact, I used to think that sex and sexual thoughts keep one looking young. But there are other ways to do that as I can see with my spiritual teachers! Meditation is certainly one of them and this I do every day. So is being veg, among other things. Ah yes and green tea too.
Malka, liked your post too about Buddhism.
Best for your Quest
Anita
Gene - Snap, I too use Centerpointe, with the same problem of financing it.
Malka - Your post above has shown me that I made the wrong emphasis when speaking about quietening the ego. You're right, it is the effect of meditation rather than the cause.
Anita - Good for you. I have learned to do it too. Because of events in the village where I live, I have had ample opportunity to practice this non-attachment. When you actually do it, I've found the other person's response to be very interesting. The first time, they are non-plussed, because it's so unexpected. The next time, you can almost hear them wondering if you're 'taking the mickey'. But later on, in some cases anyway, they actually start to talk to you, and sometimes you can end up chuckling together about the original 'hostility'.
Michael F.
Malka - Your post above has shown me that I made the wrong emphasis when speaking about quietening the ego. You're right, it is the effect of meditation rather than the cause.
Anita - Good for you. I have learned to do it too. Because of events in the village where I live, I have had ample opportunity to practice this non-attachment. When you actually do it, I've found the other person's response to be very interesting. The first time, they are non-plussed, because it's so unexpected. The next time, you can almost hear them wondering if you're 'taking the mickey'. But later on, in some cases anyway, they actually start to talk to you, and sometimes you can end up chuckling together about the original 'hostility'.
Michael F.
cal val
visitor
- Joined
- Apr 30, 1971
- Messages
- 1,507
- Reaction score
- 20
Davidl...
You said, "Where the ego is the 'reacter' , our higher mind the 'responder'."
Here's some interesting cognitive behavior at work. When one prefaces anything with a possessive pronoun one is indicating ownership. To say "my/our/your/his/her/its higher self/feelings/inner child/whatever" is claiming ownership. When one prefaces anything with "the" one is not claiming ownership.
When I am owning "my" higher self, but not "the" ego, I am owning the behaviors of "my" higher self and not the behaviors of "the" ego.
One has to own it ALL to be able to communicate with ANY of it. Everything starts with the self. If I can't communicate with myself, how can I communicate with anyone? And "higher self" presents a problem for me. How intimidating is "higher" anyway?!?. How do I approach someone higher than myself?
I don't have an ego. Ego is a word coined by a cocaine-addicted (consequently judgment impaired) mysogonist 78-79 years ago. If it's not yet dead at that age considering all that's been learned about human psychology since, it should be. I have a lot of selves, none of them higher or lower than me, that need to be integrated into one self in order to function as a whole. I've got a 3-year old self that was jealous of baby brother, a 9-year old self that got blamed for everything, an 11-year old self that experienced a life-threatening situation, etc. etc. etc.
And I own them all, they are all me, and I love them all. Love is trust. Trust is the key to communication. When those parts of me trust my adult self and feel safe to communicate with that part of me, the "here and now" me, they become part of my whole and stop doing the 3-year old, 9-year old or 11-year old behaviors and trust my adult self to handle situations with adult behaviors.
And like Dharma said, they never all integrate in most of us. They sure haven't all integrated in me...*childish grin*
Cheerio the noo,
Val
You said, "Where the ego is the 'reacter' , our higher mind the 'responder'."
Here's some interesting cognitive behavior at work. When one prefaces anything with a possessive pronoun one is indicating ownership. To say "my/our/your/his/her/its higher self/feelings/inner child/whatever" is claiming ownership. When one prefaces anything with "the" one is not claiming ownership.
When I am owning "my" higher self, but not "the" ego, I am owning the behaviors of "my" higher self and not the behaviors of "the" ego.
One has to own it ALL to be able to communicate with ANY of it. Everything starts with the self. If I can't communicate with myself, how can I communicate with anyone? And "higher self" presents a problem for me. How intimidating is "higher" anyway?!?. How do I approach someone higher than myself?
I don't have an ego. Ego is a word coined by a cocaine-addicted (consequently judgment impaired) mysogonist 78-79 years ago. If it's not yet dead at that age considering all that's been learned about human psychology since, it should be. I have a lot of selves, none of them higher or lower than me, that need to be integrated into one self in order to function as a whole. I've got a 3-year old self that was jealous of baby brother, a 9-year old self that got blamed for everything, an 11-year old self that experienced a life-threatening situation, etc. etc. etc.
And I own them all, they are all me, and I love them all. Love is trust. Trust is the key to communication. When those parts of me trust my adult self and feel safe to communicate with that part of me, the "here and now" me, they become part of my whole and stop doing the 3-year old, 9-year old or 11-year old behaviors and trust my adult self to handle situations with adult behaviors.
And like Dharma said, they never all integrate in most of us. They sure haven't all integrated in me...*childish grin*
Cheerio the noo,
Val
martin
(deceased)
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1971
- Messages
- 2,705
- Reaction score
- 61
I like the way you see it, Val.
Each or our selves is valuable and has something to offer to the whole.
And there is no "ego", or at least no ego that should go, be transcended or whatever.
I think there are basically two approaches to the human psyche (and yes, I know I am simplifying).
The first approach says "this should not be there, try to get rid of it, or sublimate it, transcend it".
The second approach is "this may be problematic, but it surely has it's place. It must have value. Accept it, embrace it, try to communicate with it"
I prefer the second approach.
Martin
Each or our selves is valuable and has something to offer to the whole.
And there is no "ego", or at least no ego that should go, be transcended or whatever.
I think there are basically two approaches to the human psyche (and yes, I know I am simplifying).
The first approach says "this should not be there, try to get rid of it, or sublimate it, transcend it".
The second approach is "this may be problematic, but it surely has it's place. It must have value. Accept it, embrace it, try to communicate with it"
I prefer the second approach.
Martin
D
dharma
Guest
Frandoch, with complete honesty there was absolutely no barb intended... none at all. It is simply not even a part of my M.O. I merely took an idea you presented and flipped the coin over to reveal it's other side. Nothing more than that.
I'm afraid the first impression of me has given you, and perhaps some others here, the notion that I am easily riled and will charge at the slightest provocation. Not true, not true.
In Chinese Astrology I am born in the year of the Ox/Yak/Buffalo (take your pick, they're all thick, heavy, slow and exasperatingly stubborn)...
(for those of you intent on calculating the years, this makes me anywhere between 78 and 18, and I promise you I am neither frail nor innocent)
...and just like any one of these normally placid and docile animals it takes a whole lot of agitation over a considerable period of time for me to even bother looking up from my cud-chewing. A heavy, plodding, farm animal is often too overworked to care much when the farmer's abnoxious son Billy Bob comes a tossin' twigs and stones into the pen. It's the hot-brand irons I have a problem with.
Yes, once in a blue moon, I have been known to turn into a raging bull in a china shop, and woe to those who get caught in the cross-fire! But I can hardly be blamed when, having reached the limits of my extraordinary patience and tolerance, I find the pen has been carelessly left wide-open for me and Billy Bob has taken to mooning me in the pasture. In those moments, all I see is a red target where that little pisher's bottom is waving.
If, and when I charge, there won't ever be any doubt about my intention... none whatsoever. You will get no coy or coquettish back-handed slaps or barbs from me. Nor will I shower you with kisses and gushy affection... Apparently, I'm too stodgy to have a clue how this is done. However, I thoroughly enjoy the giddy chatter from all the other farm animals around here, hootin' ana hollerin' as they come and go, including yourself.
Vicariously yours,
a field-plowing, cud-chewing, card-holding member of the funny farm
I'm afraid the first impression of me has given you, and perhaps some others here, the notion that I am easily riled and will charge at the slightest provocation. Not true, not true.
In Chinese Astrology I am born in the year of the Ox/Yak/Buffalo (take your pick, they're all thick, heavy, slow and exasperatingly stubborn)...
(for those of you intent on calculating the years, this makes me anywhere between 78 and 18, and I promise you I am neither frail nor innocent)
...and just like any one of these normally placid and docile animals it takes a whole lot of agitation over a considerable period of time for me to even bother looking up from my cud-chewing. A heavy, plodding, farm animal is often too overworked to care much when the farmer's abnoxious son Billy Bob comes a tossin' twigs and stones into the pen. It's the hot-brand irons I have a problem with.
Yes, once in a blue moon, I have been known to turn into a raging bull in a china shop, and woe to those who get caught in the cross-fire! But I can hardly be blamed when, having reached the limits of my extraordinary patience and tolerance, I find the pen has been carelessly left wide-open for me and Billy Bob has taken to mooning me in the pasture. In those moments, all I see is a red target where that little pisher's bottom is waving.
If, and when I charge, there won't ever be any doubt about my intention... none whatsoever. You will get no coy or coquettish back-handed slaps or barbs from me. Nor will I shower you with kisses and gushy affection... Apparently, I'm too stodgy to have a clue how this is done. However, I thoroughly enjoy the giddy chatter from all the other farm animals around here, hootin' ana hollerin' as they come and go, including yourself.
Vicariously yours,
a field-plowing, cud-chewing, card-holding member of the funny farm
Dharma - thank you for your post.
. I accept your assurance that no barb was intended. And thank you for your hilarious image of you and Billy Bob. I will do everything in my power to avoid being either the target, or caught in the crossfire.
Michael F.
Michael F.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Aha!! Some Ox meat, eh? Great stews and soups with oxtails....
Before Dharma start dusting and oiling the flame-thrower I must say that I also am an Ox, a Metal-Ox to be precise. Combine that with being a Leo in these parts of the world and the mix is not a pretty one (just ask my wife...) For example, this is a little something I found regarding Metal-Ox:
quote
-----
Metal-Ox: 1901, 1961
Is very focused, determined, stubborn and unyielding.
Is hardworking and extremely resilient.
A trifle dull, has a strong personallity and domineering.
Refrain from arguing with him. He is relentless and because of his stubborn nature, never want to lose.
unquote
-------
[stifle your chuckles here, show some respect!!] Who? Me??
In any case, let's dissect Dharma's age using some logic and observation using hexagram lines as an ascending ladder using one line for each occurrence of the Ox in the past century {Dharma, I'm joking with you...}:
Line 1: 1997 Fire-Ox (hmmm, she can't be a precocious Fire-Ox, if that's the case some episodes of the X-Files must be real and documented facts) Perhaps she is from 1937, I see some similarities with my father who is also a Fire-Ox. But, 1937 Fire-Ox is repeated in Line 6, so read that one... Soooo, this one, as it is the position of the line in the hexagram, is way too young to be Dharma and be taken too seriously...
Line 2: 1985 Wood-Ox. Well, if we go by the sheer amount of all the porno spam I get in my e-mail Inbox every day it appears that innocent 18 years old girls is an extint species. So, being 18, nowadays, is not a good metaphor for innocence. That applies only to Line 1. However, although innocence at the age of 18 may be a scarce commodity, they would absolutely lack the eloquence that Dharma exhibits in her writings. That could perhaps apply to a 1925 Wood-Ox but that line would escape just above the sixth line of this hexagram making her a retired sage not to be bothered with mundane stupidity (just like what you are reading here...)
Line 3: 1973 Water-Ox. Here the speculation on Dharma's age starts to get trickier. Hmmm, Water Ox -> Is calm, hardworking, ambitious and fearless. More flexible than his cousins. Is easy to be pleased. Is never in a hurry but methodical and extremely patient, tough and seldom forgets <- Warmer, but for some reason I see the position as a third line and some immaturity would seep thru that fact alone. She could be 30 but, nope, some immaturity is still exhibited at that age (actually, immaturity, as we know it, is ageless and full of shades so is not really a good metaphor). The eloquence may be there but, whatever you may say about Dharma and her writing, immaturity is not one of those treats. Furthermore, flexibility and ease of pleasing....??
Line 4: 1961 Metal-Ox. I think we are getting warmer here. Nice, central position in the hexagram having crossed the gate to the upper trigram, close to the usual regent of the sign. That's my year and although I didn't actually fell in love with any of the Bee Gees or a skinny Travolta in the late 70's (I guess it was the young hormones, my cup of tea was the blond bombshell from ABBA...) I can identify myself with some of Dharma's personality. Geeze!! I wish English was my first language and write as well as she does, barbs and all. I can emulate that in Spanish but then this audience, or most of it, is out... If I was going to bet a couple of bucks I would say Dharma is from 1961...
Line 5: 1949 Earth-Ox. Well, finally we reached the regent of the hexagram, central and correct, as it would be said... I would cry HOT! but for some reason, something tells me that she is closer to the fourth line. Age wise, position wise and writing wise, she would fit perfectly as a 1949 girl but Earth-Ox wise, hmmmm... -> Is intelligent, honest, hardworking, confident and deligent. Is not a risk taker and a real family man who will protect his family to the ends of the earth. Has endurance and lots of patience. Is also highly ambitious and quite a autocratic person will often be sucessfull financially. Do not cross his path as he can get very tough.<- You judge for yourself...
Line 6: 1937 Fire-Ox, again... From pure innocence in Line 1 to sage maturity in Line 6. A full circle. More on the way out from empty arguments and closer, much closer to retirement and contemplation of one's life than those below. Don't see Dharma up here. I seriously doubt she is a 1937. If you are, what the heck are you doing playing with us immature children?? But, then again, a Fire-Ox have some intriguing characteristics, viz -> Is industrious and a high achiever always aiming for the top. Can be dictatorial and ruthless, hot tempered and stubborn. Wants others to be loyal to him. On the good side, he is generous, protective and resilient.<- Not ready for retirement??
Cheerfully yours,
Luis
Before Dharma start dusting and oiling the flame-thrower I must say that I also am an Ox, a Metal-Ox to be precise. Combine that with being a Leo in these parts of the world and the mix is not a pretty one (just ask my wife...) For example, this is a little something I found regarding Metal-Ox:
quote
-----
Metal-Ox: 1901, 1961
Is very focused, determined, stubborn and unyielding.
Is hardworking and extremely resilient.
A trifle dull, has a strong personallity and domineering.
Refrain from arguing with him. He is relentless and because of his stubborn nature, never want to lose.
unquote
-------
[stifle your chuckles here, show some respect!!] Who? Me??
In any case, let's dissect Dharma's age using some logic and observation using hexagram lines as an ascending ladder using one line for each occurrence of the Ox in the past century {Dharma, I'm joking with you...}:
Line 1: 1997 Fire-Ox (hmmm, she can't be a precocious Fire-Ox, if that's the case some episodes of the X-Files must be real and documented facts) Perhaps she is from 1937, I see some similarities with my father who is also a Fire-Ox. But, 1937 Fire-Ox is repeated in Line 6, so read that one... Soooo, this one, as it is the position of the line in the hexagram, is way too young to be Dharma and be taken too seriously...
Line 2: 1985 Wood-Ox. Well, if we go by the sheer amount of all the porno spam I get in my e-mail Inbox every day it appears that innocent 18 years old girls is an extint species. So, being 18, nowadays, is not a good metaphor for innocence. That applies only to Line 1. However, although innocence at the age of 18 may be a scarce commodity, they would absolutely lack the eloquence that Dharma exhibits in her writings. That could perhaps apply to a 1925 Wood-Ox but that line would escape just above the sixth line of this hexagram making her a retired sage not to be bothered with mundane stupidity (just like what you are reading here...)
Line 3: 1973 Water-Ox. Here the speculation on Dharma's age starts to get trickier. Hmmm, Water Ox -> Is calm, hardworking, ambitious and fearless. More flexible than his cousins. Is easy to be pleased. Is never in a hurry but methodical and extremely patient, tough and seldom forgets <- Warmer, but for some reason I see the position as a third line and some immaturity would seep thru that fact alone. She could be 30 but, nope, some immaturity is still exhibited at that age (actually, immaturity, as we know it, is ageless and full of shades so is not really a good metaphor). The eloquence may be there but, whatever you may say about Dharma and her writing, immaturity is not one of those treats. Furthermore, flexibility and ease of pleasing....??
Line 4: 1961 Metal-Ox. I think we are getting warmer here. Nice, central position in the hexagram having crossed the gate to the upper trigram, close to the usual regent of the sign. That's my year and although I didn't actually fell in love with any of the Bee Gees or a skinny Travolta in the late 70's (I guess it was the young hormones, my cup of tea was the blond bombshell from ABBA...) I can identify myself with some of Dharma's personality. Geeze!! I wish English was my first language and write as well as she does, barbs and all. I can emulate that in Spanish but then this audience, or most of it, is out... If I was going to bet a couple of bucks I would say Dharma is from 1961...
Line 5: 1949 Earth-Ox. Well, finally we reached the regent of the hexagram, central and correct, as it would be said... I would cry HOT! but for some reason, something tells me that she is closer to the fourth line. Age wise, position wise and writing wise, she would fit perfectly as a 1949 girl but Earth-Ox wise, hmmmm... -> Is intelligent, honest, hardworking, confident and deligent. Is not a risk taker and a real family man who will protect his family to the ends of the earth. Has endurance and lots of patience. Is also highly ambitious and quite a autocratic person will often be sucessfull financially. Do not cross his path as he can get very tough.<- You judge for yourself...
Line 6: 1937 Fire-Ox, again... From pure innocence in Line 1 to sage maturity in Line 6. A full circle. More on the way out from empty arguments and closer, much closer to retirement and contemplation of one's life than those below. Don't see Dharma up here. I seriously doubt she is a 1937. If you are, what the heck are you doing playing with us immature children?? But, then again, a Fire-Ox have some intriguing characteristics, viz -> Is industrious and a high achiever always aiming for the top. Can be dictatorial and ruthless, hot tempered and stubborn. Wants others to be loyal to him. On the good side, he is generous, protective and resilient.<- Not ready for retirement??
Cheerfully yours,
Luis
D
dharma
Guest
Wow!! What an absolutely delightful tribute!!
(I even went to the trouble to fetch some proper images as my way of saying thank you cause I needed to find some way of covering up the speechlessness)
Brilliant, I love it!
Terrifically creative!
A pleasure, Luis, a pleasure indeed!
One incredibly honoured Pisces/Metal-Ox
(I even went to the trouble to fetch some proper images as my way of saying thank you cause I needed to find some way of covering up the speechlessness)
Brilliant, I love it!
Terrifically creative!
A pleasure, Luis, a pleasure indeed!
One incredibly honoured Pisces/Metal-Ox
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Geeze! I wish I had placed that bet! I would be a few bucks richer.
Glad you liked the lighter side of my version of the Yi.
Cheers,
Luis
Glad you liked the lighter side of my version of the Yi.
Cheers,
Luis
Hi Martin
Quote .......Accept it, embrace it, try to communicate with it"
Whats an 'it' and who is communicating with it ? How do you separate 'it' from you.
Val,
Picky, picky, picky. Of course its my ego and my higher self and yes I do take responsibility for both of them. One thing I dont do though is try and integrate old aspects of myself that have no value for me today. They can be left behind where they belong. Im sorry but Im not a great advocate for the idea of reliving past horrors to release them or accepting adults that act like 3 year olds. All can be released, dissapated purely through the grace of the creator.
Quote .......Accept it, embrace it, try to communicate with it"
Whats an 'it' and who is communicating with it ? How do you separate 'it' from you.
Val,
Picky, picky, picky. Of course its my ego and my higher self and yes I do take responsibility for both of them. One thing I dont do though is try and integrate old aspects of myself that have no value for me today. They can be left behind where they belong. Im sorry but Im not a great advocate for the idea of reliving past horrors to release them or accepting adults that act like 3 year olds. All can be released, dissapated purely through the grace of the creator.
Hi Anita,
Karma or the concept of karma I believe can be a real trap. Just release any ideas that bad things that happen to you are because of bad things you did in the past. I find this is a very controlling idea that probably suited the elite priesthood nicely. In fact I am not aware of the Yi mentioning this concept .
My background is Judaism but wasn't it Jesus who basically said 'all is forgiven' . No benevolent creator I believe would allow suffering of this kind. Karma is a man made idea. If you doubt this then dont doubt that by asking your creator to wipe the slate clean, like, today, that grace would descend. Would you punish your child for an indiscretion that occured 10 years ago. Of course not, then why would your creator.
Karma or the concept of karma I believe can be a real trap. Just release any ideas that bad things that happen to you are because of bad things you did in the past. I find this is a very controlling idea that probably suited the elite priesthood nicely. In fact I am not aware of the Yi mentioning this concept .
My background is Judaism but wasn't it Jesus who basically said 'all is forgiven' . No benevolent creator I believe would allow suffering of this kind. Karma is a man made idea. If you doubt this then dont doubt that by asking your creator to wipe the slate clean, like, today, that grace would descend. Would you punish your child for an indiscretion that occured 10 years ago. Of course not, then why would your creator.
cal val
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Luis...
Are you Basque by any chance? Ox tail soup is a Basque specialty isn't it?
My dad liked Basque food and used to take us to Basque restaurants in the central valley of California where's there's a rather large Basque population. The meal always started with ox tail soup.
Cheerio the noo,
Val
Are you Basque by any chance? Ox tail soup is a Basque specialty isn't it?
My dad liked Basque food and used to take us to Basque restaurants in the central valley of California where's there's a rather large Basque population. The meal always started with ox tail soup.
Cheerio the noo,
Val
David
While the I Ching may not overtly teach Karma, it is "hidden in the balance so to speak." It is true, Karma is not a hard and fast rule, but it does operate, simply by the universes naturally tendency to balance itself.
Again, while karma is not taught outwardly by Jesus, there are allusions to it. The church that became Rome destroyed evidence of these teachings early on. We do still have hidden examples of reincarnation though. Supposedly, John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah. Some say Jesus did not teach Karma due to the disciples questioning, did this man sin or his parents that he was born blind. Jesus answer was neither. It sounds like he is saying karma is not a valid concept. However, when he healed, he commonly said, thy sins be forgiven thee, though the person being healed had the infirmity since birth. There is a lot behind the scenes. And in the Torah, you have hidden references to karma in the words, "the sins of the father shall be visited upon the children to the second and third generation" Sins of the previous incarnation visited on the next incarnation. By the nature of the universe's tendency to balance itself, there has to be a balancing on the human level too. This does not mean there can be no redemption or escape from karma, but the escape comes from learning the lesson before it is forced upon you.
Gene
While the I Ching may not overtly teach Karma, it is "hidden in the balance so to speak." It is true, Karma is not a hard and fast rule, but it does operate, simply by the universes naturally tendency to balance itself.
Again, while karma is not taught outwardly by Jesus, there are allusions to it. The church that became Rome destroyed evidence of these teachings early on. We do still have hidden examples of reincarnation though. Supposedly, John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah. Some say Jesus did not teach Karma due to the disciples questioning, did this man sin or his parents that he was born blind. Jesus answer was neither. It sounds like he is saying karma is not a valid concept. However, when he healed, he commonly said, thy sins be forgiven thee, though the person being healed had the infirmity since birth. There is a lot behind the scenes. And in the Torah, you have hidden references to karma in the words, "the sins of the father shall be visited upon the children to the second and third generation" Sins of the previous incarnation visited on the next incarnation. By the nature of the universe's tendency to balance itself, there has to be a balancing on the human level too. This does not mean there can be no redemption or escape from karma, but the escape comes from learning the lesson before it is forced upon you.
Gene
Val
Having grown up in Boise, I knew a lot of Basque people, although I never learned much about their customs or such, I had friends growing up that were basque. For some reason, in times past, the basque seem to congregate in Boise, probably not so true anymore, I imagine they are everywhere. They have a unique language. I understand it is not anything like French or Spanish, although they are from the area on the border between the two countries. This has led some to speculate that they come from the lost cotinent of Atlantis. Don't know how true that is, but I do understand their language is very hard to learn, and very different from most languages on earth.
Gene
Having grown up in Boise, I knew a lot of Basque people, although I never learned much about their customs or such, I had friends growing up that were basque. For some reason, in times past, the basque seem to congregate in Boise, probably not so true anymore, I imagine they are everywhere. They have a unique language. I understand it is not anything like French or Spanish, although they are from the area on the border between the two countries. This has led some to speculate that they come from the lost cotinent of Atlantis. Don't know how true that is, but I do understand their language is very hard to learn, and very different from most languages on earth.
Gene
cal val
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Gene, Davidl, Anita...
And anyone else who has strong feelings about reincarnation. I just started a new thread on the subject in Open Space, the new room Hilary just opened for such things, since I find the subject fascinating and would love to learn more and this isn't really the appropriate room and this thread is getting too long for dial-up anyway...*gasps for air*, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it...*grin*
Btw, Gene, before I opened the thread I asked the Yi if we reincarnate, and they answered 50/1 and 5 to 1. Don't you know my eyes are big as saucers right now.
Cheerio the noo,
Val
And anyone else who has strong feelings about reincarnation. I just started a new thread on the subject in Open Space, the new room Hilary just opened for such things, since I find the subject fascinating and would love to learn more and this isn't really the appropriate room and this thread is getting too long for dial-up anyway...*gasps for air*, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it...*grin*
Btw, Gene, before I opened the thread I asked the Yi if we reincarnate, and they answered 50/1 and 5 to 1. Don't you know my eyes are big as saucers right now.
Cheerio the noo,
Val
L
lilian
Guest
> By Malka:
> Buddhism speaks of "quieting the mind" in other words, to
> stop the constant chatter of tapes that replay, over and
> over again, a scene, or conversation that has already
> happened, or never happened. This is referred to as
> "grasping" or attachment.
> By Frandoch (Frandoch) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 11:41 pm:
> chatter that goes on in our minds - the ceaseless dialogue
> of thoughts. The aim is to quieten it down.
Did I miss something -
If our minds have such a strong urge to chatter, and it is so hard to quiet it down - doesn't "grasping" or attachment serve a function?
Not that I like the merry-go-round in my head...
??
Lilian
> Buddhism speaks of "quieting the mind" in other words, to
> stop the constant chatter of tapes that replay, over and
> over again, a scene, or conversation that has already
> happened, or never happened. This is referred to as
> "grasping" or attachment.
> By Frandoch (Frandoch) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 11:41 pm:
> chatter that goes on in our minds - the ceaseless dialogue
> of thoughts. The aim is to quieten it down.
Did I miss something -
If our minds have such a strong urge to chatter, and it is so hard to quiet it down - doesn't "grasping" or attachment serve a function?
Not that I like the merry-go-round in my head...
??
Lilian
Lilian,
Yes, grasping and attachment serve an enormous purpose: they distract us from the present moment. Often the moment holds discomfort, anxiousness, or other feelings that can be uncomfortable. (Even joy can be uncomfortable for many of us at times.) So the mind chatter takes us away from these things. It is a defense.
In some ways, this defense is our only method of self-protection. It's okay to have defenses! We wouldn't want to eliminate all of them in one swoop. (What a jolt that would be!) But over time, with gentleness, and self-acceptance, and lovingkindness, and confidence, we became more able to be open to whatever arises in life, and so have less and less of a need to be distracted. Mind chatter is just that - a distraction from the NOW.
Yes, grasping and attachment serve an enormous purpose: they distract us from the present moment. Often the moment holds discomfort, anxiousness, or other feelings that can be uncomfortable. (Even joy can be uncomfortable for many of us at times.) So the mind chatter takes us away from these things. It is a defense.
In some ways, this defense is our only method of self-protection. It's okay to have defenses! We wouldn't want to eliminate all of them in one swoop. (What a jolt that would be!) But over time, with gentleness, and self-acceptance, and lovingkindness, and confidence, we became more able to be open to whatever arises in life, and so have less and less of a need to be distracted. Mind chatter is just that - a distraction from the NOW.
David,
The interpretation of karma that has become popular I agree with you can be thrown out. Karma has gotten a bad deal because it's definition has been so misunderstood and inaccurately described. Karma is NOT cause and effect in the linear 1:1 manner in which it has been popularly described. It is also very much a Jewish concept, but again, not in the direct cause and effect manner. In other words, you lie to someone today, and someone else tells you one tomorrow. No, this isn't karma.
Karma is the concept of the larger interconnectedness of all things. Such as, the butterfly flapping it's wings in Texas participates in the creation of the huricane in the South Pacific. The butterfly is not the immediate and direct cause of the huricane (afterall, she was only flying around enjoying the scenery!) but she does participate in the creation of the huricane along with many, many other factors.
The Kabbalah (the Jewish mystical writings) says that it's significant why someone walks through a doorway at the exact minute they do, because it is a setup for something else that happens perhaps many years later that seems to have no connection, but which G-d knows is deeply connected.
Bad things (and good things for that matter)do not happen because we were bad or good. This suggestion is the self-important, narcissistic ego talking. The universe just isn't this personal. The universe doesn't single us out because we were bad or good. Things happen. Some are comfortable for us and so we label them "good." Others are uncomfotable and so we label them "bad." But it's really just the universe being the universe. And we are simply a part of the flow of it all.
Both Judaism and Buddhism would agree that "our soul designs our curriculum.' Those are my words, but the concept that both traditions share is that we are here to learn. The experiences we encounter are the EXACT ones we need for where we find ourselves on our path. We're asked to trust this. (This is FAITH.) Often what we experience doesn't make sense on an obvious level that it is perfect. That's okay, these traditions would say. Everything is perfect. Our part is to stay in the present with whatever happens, act skillfully and mindfully as best we can. That's it.
The best book I've read about karma, etc. is Gary Zukav's "The Seat of the Soul." I highly recommend this book. One passage I recall and will paraphrase: he writes about the couple whose only child has died. How can this be perfect? How can this not be personal? Gary says that we do not know what healing has actually taken place by this event. We don't know (on a concious level) what agreements were made by our souls, to be this child's parents, to be the child. He says it so much better than I...so read the book if this interests you!
The interpretation of karma that has become popular I agree with you can be thrown out. Karma has gotten a bad deal because it's definition has been so misunderstood and inaccurately described. Karma is NOT cause and effect in the linear 1:1 manner in which it has been popularly described. It is also very much a Jewish concept, but again, not in the direct cause and effect manner. In other words, you lie to someone today, and someone else tells you one tomorrow. No, this isn't karma.
Karma is the concept of the larger interconnectedness of all things. Such as, the butterfly flapping it's wings in Texas participates in the creation of the huricane in the South Pacific. The butterfly is not the immediate and direct cause of the huricane (afterall, she was only flying around enjoying the scenery!) but she does participate in the creation of the huricane along with many, many other factors.
The Kabbalah (the Jewish mystical writings) says that it's significant why someone walks through a doorway at the exact minute they do, because it is a setup for something else that happens perhaps many years later that seems to have no connection, but which G-d knows is deeply connected.
Bad things (and good things for that matter)do not happen because we were bad or good. This suggestion is the self-important, narcissistic ego talking. The universe just isn't this personal. The universe doesn't single us out because we were bad or good. Things happen. Some are comfortable for us and so we label them "good." Others are uncomfotable and so we label them "bad." But it's really just the universe being the universe. And we are simply a part of the flow of it all.
Both Judaism and Buddhism would agree that "our soul designs our curriculum.' Those are my words, but the concept that both traditions share is that we are here to learn. The experiences we encounter are the EXACT ones we need for where we find ourselves on our path. We're asked to trust this. (This is FAITH.) Often what we experience doesn't make sense on an obvious level that it is perfect. That's okay, these traditions would say. Everything is perfect. Our part is to stay in the present with whatever happens, act skillfully and mindfully as best we can. That's it.
The best book I've read about karma, etc. is Gary Zukav's "The Seat of the Soul." I highly recommend this book. One passage I recall and will paraphrase: he writes about the couple whose only child has died. How can this be perfect? How can this not be personal? Gary says that we do not know what healing has actually taken place by this event. We don't know (on a concious level) what agreements were made by our souls, to be this child's parents, to be the child. He says it so much better than I...so read the book if this interests you!
Hi Gene and Malka and david,
Gene, I'm glad you see eye to eye. Malka, I know for a fact that karma is very real and it has nothing to do with the 'Creator'. You are the creator - this is why - David are you listening - Jesus said As you sow so you reap. I know because on my spiritual path I have seen and experienced beyond doubt the effects of good or bad karma. It's all very well to theorise, but it's the experiencing that makes one a believer. At least it has always been so with me. I barely knew anything about this concept before I discovered and dedicated myself to my spiritual practice.
The sins of the father (or mother) are indeed visited upon their progeny. Children in fact, carry the karma of their parents (unfair when the karma is bad maybe) -- but who's to blame? Certainly not the 'Creator'. It is also the bad krama of the children to be born to such parents. Everything is determined by karma. Our wealth, status, the joys and tragedies in our lives and some of these effects are created in the present while some are due to causes that are ages old - from other lives.
Do read Edgar Cayce's 'Story of Karma'- here is a staunch Catholic professing belief in this concept. Something he was surprised by because as a Catholic he wasn't meant to believe in this concept at all. However, his readings were given in the trance state and he had no conscious control over what he said in this state. Amazing man with amazing accuracy. He's a very famous American seer.
In Hindi karma simply means action. And there is good and bad action. By the way, has anyone read Arthur Koestler's 'Roots of Coincidence'. He says that there is no such thing as coincidence. This too has bearing on karma in the sense of cause and effect. There is no such thing as an effect without a cause, and the cause can be born eons ago.
Val, I'd be glad to discuss reincarnation. It is deeply tied up with karma.
Gene, I'm glad you see eye to eye. Malka, I know for a fact that karma is very real and it has nothing to do with the 'Creator'. You are the creator - this is why - David are you listening - Jesus said As you sow so you reap. I know because on my spiritual path I have seen and experienced beyond doubt the effects of good or bad karma. It's all very well to theorise, but it's the experiencing that makes one a believer. At least it has always been so with me. I barely knew anything about this concept before I discovered and dedicated myself to my spiritual practice.
The sins of the father (or mother) are indeed visited upon their progeny. Children in fact, carry the karma of their parents (unfair when the karma is bad maybe) -- but who's to blame? Certainly not the 'Creator'. It is also the bad krama of the children to be born to such parents. Everything is determined by karma. Our wealth, status, the joys and tragedies in our lives and some of these effects are created in the present while some are due to causes that are ages old - from other lives.
Do read Edgar Cayce's 'Story of Karma'- here is a staunch Catholic professing belief in this concept. Something he was surprised by because as a Catholic he wasn't meant to believe in this concept at all. However, his readings were given in the trance state and he had no conscious control over what he said in this state. Amazing man with amazing accuracy. He's a very famous American seer.
In Hindi karma simply means action. And there is good and bad action. By the way, has anyone read Arthur Koestler's 'Roots of Coincidence'. He says that there is no such thing as coincidence. This too has bearing on karma in the sense of cause and effect. There is no such thing as an effect without a cause, and the cause can be born eons ago.
Val, I'd be glad to discuss reincarnation. It is deeply tied up with karma.
Im not surprised a staunch Catholic would enjoy the idea that punishment for 'bad' deeds is hereditary. Didn't they invent Hell ?
I really like Edgar Cayces stuff by the way.
Look Im not saying that Karma doesn't exist (you think you have it , so you do), Im saying that it can be dispensed with by the grace of G-d or by your own will.
I agree with Malka, the idea that we are paying for the sins of our parents is the ego explaining how it wasn't its fault, it was because its great grandfather was a real shit head. Sorry I cant go with that.
Anita, say to yourself every morning when you wake up ."I am new". I have no karmic baggage. I am free! Release yourself.
love davidl
I really like Edgar Cayces stuff by the way.
Look Im not saying that Karma doesn't exist (you think you have it , so you do), Im saying that it can be dispensed with by the grace of G-d or by your own will.
I agree with Malka, the idea that we are paying for the sins of our parents is the ego explaining how it wasn't its fault, it was because its great grandfather was a real shit head. Sorry I cant go with that.
Anita, say to yourself every morning when you wake up ."I am new". I have no karmic baggage. I am free! Release yourself.
love davidl
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I am 80 mails behind with reading, and doing my best to catch up.
But I absolutely have to tell Michael Frandoch how much I loved his mail (more than 70 back?), the one about watching soaps and such, about being only here and now.
Wonderful, great!!!
LiSe
But I absolutely have to tell Michael Frandoch how much I loved his mail (more than 70 back?), the one about watching soaps and such, about being only here and now.
Wonderful, great!!!
LiSe