Time out!

[soshin]

Yes, Bruce, I am sure there are great times ahead for both of us. I already have to do like you are suggesting because with my 39 years I catch myself lamenting sometimes.

But, who is this Meng?!? I want to be introduced formally to her/him/it...

 

[bruce]

Meng, as in hex. 4. You know, the one who so many see as being foolish. The one who casts off rules, breaks convention, speaks out of turn, takes un-required risks, and dares to be irreverent even to the most sacred cow. Foolish, though he sometimes may be, he/she is also the one who keeps life new.

How can an old man play a drum unless he?s also an old fool? Or how dare a young man dream of being an old man by just following the rules? lol

 

[soshin]

Oh, I see! I knew I heard something about it... ;-)

Thank you!

 

[luz]

"How can an old man play a drum unless he?s also an old fool? "

Love it! I like being a fool!

 

[bruce]

Soshin, well, you did ask.

Angel? an old man? And Martin a woman? Who can keep up anymore... cheesh

 

[bruce]

On: 31.5 The best teachers are the best students, and vv.

What inspired this in me was, thinking about the Dali Lama. There's something so endearing to me about him. Chiefly because he does not speak as someone with lots of answers; though he has some real gems. He seems to be as much a student as a teacher. I'd bet he's an excellent listener, someone you could open up to. And then listen to very carefully.

 

[rosada]

We seem to be on hold at 34, "pausing" as Wilhelm discribes it (Miscellaneous Notes on 34., pg 555).

We've often seen where our I Ching thread here seems to mirror events going on in the outer world, I'm wondering if there is a correlation this time too.

33. is Withdrawal or Retreat. i personally have had 33 come up in situations involving death. 34 suggests pausing. A connection perhaps with the stories we see in the news this week about the fellow trapped in the mine and Sharon both in comas, "pausing" at death's door?

34.3 talks about going forward too soon. 34.4, the hexagram ruler, talks about the way opening up. How does one get from 34.3 to 34.4?

 

[void]

Soshin I loved your little poem in 35,4 in the 'I Ching on the I Ching' thread. Did you write it yourself or is it taken from somewhere.(probably a well known passage and I am going to look really dumb, lol

 

[soshin]

Hi, Void!

I have been inspired from two sources. First the ones: "I am able...", those are inspired from how Cai Yong saw the rodent in the picture of 35.4. Cai Yong in his Quan xue pian writes about this rodent very similar lines, but in the language of the second century CE. I changed it all a little bit to fit in our modern world. See R. Lynn, The I Ching as interpreted by Wang Bi, p. 353 and 354, and especially footnote 10.

The last line is originally written by a Zen teacher, I also would be very interested to know who he was.

Soshin

 

[bruce]

Soshin, I agree with Void. Beautiful verses. Have never quite seen 35.4 like that before, but looking back, I can see that it fits very well with past readings.

 

[void]

Hi Soshin thanks. I never ever even thought of 35,4 like that before, usually that line is understood as someone being underhand and furtive. Your verse sheds an entirely different light on it, as in like a little rodent I can only do what is in my scope to do. The best swimmer in the world can still drown in a deep sea. Usually the implication is the querent is not bold enough I think ? But here he just knows what he can and can't do ? Have I understood it correctly ?

Two different sources but beautifully joined by you.

 

[micheline]

Twice in the last year, women approached me to ask advice about a somewhat abusive spousal relationship. It is a hard thing to advise anyone about... it is delicate and the women were taking a chance in confiding....and when children are involved, it is hard to make a decision to leave ( the children were not being abused). .I advised both women to seek help, however,and in each case,
the Yi was asked what they needed to do. Both times, 37.1. My instinct was that neither one was ready to actually take action.I didnt share the readings (not Yi people). Sure enough, One of them said she had changed her mind. The other one told me to "never mind," it wasnt "that bad."

I share this because it broadened my view of 37.1.In a troubling way.. I am not sure if in either case, the "repenting disappeared" but I think both women were choosing the "familiar" as "safe" even though the familiar was a dangerous place . I told the one woman that maybe she needed to decide who her "family" really was...who to let in and who to keep at bay. I also told her that maybe she needed to protect her little ones and decide to draw some lines...because even though the kids were not being abused, the environment was probably not healthy.

Those readings have kinda haunted me. One told me recently (six months after the initial contact), that she is going to a support group for abused women, but that she really loves the guy, and believes he will get better. For better or worse, thats pretty much 37.1

 

[bruce]

That is a haunting impression of 37.1.

 

[jesed]

Hi Micheline

I don't see how acepting abuse in a relationship could be like 37.1.

On the contrary, 37.1 is about stablish fair bounds and rules within the family (or any group), to set limits that everyone should respect for a fair convivence.

53.1 points to a cause for 37.1 advice: the young son is in danger (that's why this young son needs a fair bound within the familiy)


Best wishes

 

[bruce]

Jesed, you don't see how "firm seclusion" can be family secrets?

 

[jesed]

Hi Bruce... maybe what I don't see is "firm SECLUSION" in the text of the line

If i undestand well, "seclusion" would be more like be isolated within the family context (apart from the outdoor world).

I know some of English translations of Wilhelm uses "firm seclusion". But I think that is a wrong translation. Example: in spanish translation of Wilhelm, it would be "firm agreement". If you read the commentarie of Wilhelm, you could see that his comment has more to do with "agreement" than "seclusion" (stablish rules for the childs and so on)

I like even more Bradford's translation: "Boundaries maintain the family". Bradford points also to rules.

And absolutely, i don't see the advice of 37.1 as "you should accept the abuse" neither as "you should keep the secret"

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

ps

from the structure of the lines: line one has a good corespondence relationship with line 4 and a good solidarity relationship with line 2.. from this is hard to talk about seclusion or isolation, but easy to talk about fair and good relationships among the members of the group.

 

[bruce]

Well, all I know, Jesed, is that I trust someone's awake experience, such as Micheline's, over whether this or that text agrees with the experience.

But if we are quoting Bradford, "Half of a family?s troubles may come from boundary disputes, trespasses across unknown borders and the missing safe place for retreat." This sounds very much like what Micheline has described.

 

[bruce]

Here?s the difference as I see it, Jesed. You seem to view readings in terms of do this, or, don?t do that, innocent or guilty, good or bad, this is wrong, do that to make it right. I see them more as a painting telling a story, not always with the moral ending or clear instructions so many seek.

But, whatever works for the individual.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bruce

1.- I read THIS like an advice about what to do, because the questions was "what to do?". if the question was: what is happening? I wouldn't read as an advice of what to do.

2.- As I wrote before, I don't see the advices at the light of "moral"; but at the light of consecuences (not the same thing).

3.- The quote of Bradford reinforce the advice: stablish clear and fair limits that everyone should respect (not traspass) to avoid "family's troubles".

4.- In the cases of Micheline: you are being abused, what you need to do? "stablish limits in the family relationship". This is more logical (moral or not) than "accept that, keep the secret". isn't?
(Otherwise, the Yi Jing sounds more like a old-fashion catholic priest

)

 

[soshin]

Did anyone notice 36.6 (sic!) is missing?

 

[bruce]

Jesed, ok, fair enough.

There was council in line 1 as to a corrective course of action. I'll concede to that.

I read Micheline?s comments and their sentiment as a lesson I could learn from, as it relates to 37.1. To me it depicts a dark and unhealthy secret, which the woman in question felt bound to remain faithful to.

 

[micheline]

.jesed....your words arte exacgtly why the reading gave me pause, and a disheartened feeling. the woman said she was emotionally abused and sometimes physical....it sounded dire....the Yi answer gave me an uh-oh feeling.....like suddenly knew what I was dealing with...a woman who was not at all ready to break away......

i did not see it as advice that she should stay!! no, i felt the yi was telling me to be careful....that she is ensconced and invested there and not ready to make a move.....victims of abuse are often ones who yell out when things get desperate, but sometimes they will even leave a hospital with bruises and go right back to the arms of the perp, saying you dont understand, he is really nice, he loves me

.From my past experience with this woman, she had done similar things, called me in to lead her battle, so to speak, and then backed off telling me I overreacted.So the Yi was pointing this out, i felt. That altho she said she was desperate, she was not committed to getting away. And it was a point where I had to realize that she was crying wolf....the situation was bad, but she was looking for my comfort , not to change. and soon after, she was sheepishly saying "never mind, its fine." there is little one can do until a person is ready to accept help.Sadly. Unless a child was in imminent danger, but it was more an emotional abuse to tthe wife.

 

[rosada]

Soshin,
Re 42.5:
Thank you for the encouraging words!
YOU have a kind heart!
Rosada