Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid

[bruce_g]

OTOH, you shouldn't be so open-minded that your brain falls out.

Too late for that .

 

[hilary]

Food for thought. On the one hand, there is the danger of getting into a 'work ethic' mindset about these things: that there's no free lunch, you never get something for nothing, if you want change you have to work for it. That way lie absurd delusions of grandeur, or maybe extreme poverty of spirit, or both. We get 'something for nothing' every time we breathe in.

On the other hand, when I think of people selling others on the magic item that will bring them all good things - from the outside, of course, just like life/ other people brought them all bad things from the outside before - I get angry.

If simply possessing the talisman makes it easier to receive grace, or to see wide-open gates to walk through, then it's worth the money. But if possessing the talisman convinces you that there's no longer any need to keep your eyes open or to entertain the possibility of change, because now all things will be brought to you... not so much.

It's that story all over again: the man whose house is gradually engulfed by the floodwaters, and who rejects the help of the fire crew, and the boat, and finally the helicopter crew who come to winch him from his roof, because his toki-moaii will save him...

 

[Tohpol]

Food for thought. On the one hand, there is the danger of getting into a 'work ethic' mindset about these things: that there's no free lunch, you never get something for nothing, if you want change you have to work for it. That way lie absurd delusions of grandeur, or maybe extreme poverty of spirit, or both. We get 'something for nothing' every time we breathe in.

On the other hand, when I think of people selling others on the magic item that will bring them all good things - from the outside, of course, just like life/ other people brought them all bad things from the outside before - I get angry.

If simply possessing the talisman makes it easier to receive grace, or to see wide-open gates to walk through, then it's worth the money. But if possessing the talisman convinces you that there's no longer any need to keep your eyes open or to entertain the possibility of change, because now all things will be brought to you... not so much.

It's that story all over again: the man whose house is gradually engulfed by the floodwaters, and who rejects the help of the fire crew, and the boat, and finally the helicopter crew who come to winch him from his roof, because his toki-moaii will save him...

I think there's dangers to each polarity you mentioned: slipping into "self-flagellation;" "I'm not worthy;" the "work ethic" deal; and not enjoying the freebies of the sensual world. Or slipping into an inertia and anaesthesia of the mind where every twist on ancient truth is used to take us into a deeper sleep. The perennial difficulty seems to be to achieve that creative tension between the two. Something I think - whichever way we look at it - requires work to achieve.

Speaking of which, I have a cupboard to mend

Topal

 

[bruce_g]

It's that story all over again: the man whose house is gradually engulfed by the floodwaters, and who rejects the help of the fire crew, and the boat, and finally the helicopter crew who come to winch him from his roof, because his toki-moaii will save him...

Aw, he didn't learn a thing, did he. There's deep and shallow water in every ocean. Same can be said for Yijing practice.

I agree with the dangers and potentially superfluous attachments that lie within such forms, as in 54.6, but not all sacrifices are empty. In the end, it is always the practitioner who opens to the Way.

 

[Trojina]

Yes I believe in magic and miracles and grace too - but also as Jack so cleverly put it "you shouldn't be so open minded your brains fall out"

Total open mindedness is as bad as narrow mindedness, they actually seem to lead to the same impasse, stagnation. I'm thinking of a 'spiritual' forum I sometimes go to which has degenerated into a mushy load of nonsense because noone is allowed to show any skeptism whatsoever - if you do you get moderator letters asking why your're being negative about aliens visitations etc etc

If someone believes their entire life will change for the better only because they possess a certain object I would be cynical of that. To express reservation about something is not the same as disrespecting it or 'jumping on it'. If the person really believes in it then a comment here won't change that, and on the plus side a little cynicism may actually serve them well.

 

[martin]

"Man never on any account wants to pay for anything; and above all he does not want to pay for what is most important for him.
...
For trifles, for things that are perfectly useless to him, he will pay anything. But for something important, never. This must come to him of itself." (Gurdjieff)

So, come on, buy a toki. For what will you use that money otherwise? Fancy shoes, icecream?

 

[willowfox]

Magic devices do work. It does not matter how, but I know one thing: you have to have respect for it. Whatever it is.

I agree, magic devices can work but this toki is not only massed produced but it is available to anyone who has $ 120 they want to lose, so where is the magic in a massed produced coloured "thing"? You can believe all you want but it ain't going to change anything, I believe in results, so when there ain't none, well, that's that isn't it, and with this massed produced piece of whatever there never will be any results. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Magic devices are usually one off and made especially for its new owner, not something pumped out in a factory!

 

[Sparhawk]

Now, where did you get the idea these Toki-Moai are mass produced? Is that a fact you've investigated or an assumption?

 

[bruce_g]

Trojan, I agree with what you've said, assuming that's all someone does with it - but do you know that? Have you any experience with it? I don't, and until I do, I'll keep and open mind toward it.

I'm tempted to wager, to buy one and report my good fortune, here, within say... 3 weeks. But if that happened, I would be the one to make it, or perhaps allow it, to happen. It would be a tool, a method, a dharma, which would be up to me to practice.

Think I'll opt for a chocolate cone, though.

 

[heylise]

It helps to make things visible, like giving a rose to make love visible, having a god to make spirit visible, having a toki to make your wishes visible. It gives them more power - your love, wishes or spirit - than to only think them or say them.

There is nothing in the thing itself, except maybe a form which speaks to you, or a story of how it was created which does the same. The most important part is your own investment. That is where the power comes from.

LiSe

 

[Trojina]

Now, where did you get the idea these Toki-Moai are mass produced? Is that a fact you've investigated or an assumption?

OTOH do you know they are not mass produced ? Did you investigate this or is it an assumption ?

 

[Sparhawk]

OTOH do you know they are not mass produced ? Did you investigate this or is it an assumption ?

No, of course no and I won't assume otherwise, but that's my honest answer. What's yours or Willow's?

 

[bruce_g]

Me giggling stupid here, thinking, someone enrolls in college, and thinks they'll get smart because they've enrolled. No, that's only the beginning of the practice of learning. The way I understand it - which may be wrongly - TM is a practice. At least that's how I'd approach it.

How about ways to approach Yijing? How about incessant questions about what ex boyfriends are thinking? No less silly than paying for a stamp with a secret message encoded in it.

 

[Trojina]

Does this toki thing have anything to do with divination anyway ? The reason the thread got off to a bad start was that it looked like someone was trying to flog some talisman thing right here in the the middle of an i ching forum - thats how it looked.
It then gained credence for some reason, expired and then the thread was resurrected when a disatisfied customer came here to say the thing didn't work - she didn't come about anything I Ching related - yet for some reason we are meant to help her out that this thing didn't work whats going on here ?

 

[heylise]

Because it is a very interesting topic, and the way it works - or not - has a lot to do with yijing.

LiSe

 

[willowfox]

Now, where did you get the idea these Toki-Moai are mass produced? Is that a fact you've investigated or an assumption?

A fact.

 

[Sparhawk]

A fact.

OK then, facts are to be shared and should be easy to do so. Would you care to share with us these facts?

 

[bruce_g]

Does this toki thing have anything to do with divination anyway ? The reason the thread got off to a bad start was that it looked like someone was trying to flog some talisman thing right here in the the middle of an i ching forum - thats how it looked.
It then gained credence for some reason, expired and then the thread was resurrected when a disatisfied customer came here to say the thing didn't work - she didn't come about anything I Ching related - yet for some reason we are meant to help her out that this thing didn't work whats going on here ?

umm...

"Divination discussion, advice and tips For discussion of all kinds of divination (not just the I Ching)."

 

[Trojina]

umm...

"Divination discussion, advice and tips For discussion of all kinds of divination (not just the I Ching)."

Yes discussion about divination of all kinds but toki mo wotsit is not a form of divination is it ?

 

[heylise]

Nothing wrong with mass production. My globe was not exactly unique either. Many people use pebbles, now that is masses! Produced by nature, ok, but every pebble is just one of millions.

LiSe

 

[Trojina]

Nothing wrong with mass production. My globe was not exactly unique either. Many people use pebbles, now that is masses! Produced by nature, ok, but every pebble is just one of millions.

LiSe

You speak as if sacred/magic/esoteric symbols have no vibrational power of their own though I think one needs to be attuned to their energy to work with them as in reiki but it really doesn't just amount to the power of expectations wishful thinking etc - i know from experience it can operate independently from that. If something is mass produced i doubt if it holds that power.


Your use of the globe is not the power i am talking about when talking about the power of esoteric symbols - that is just an object meant something magical to you.

Anyway if Toki M uses some special symbol on it, if it is mass produced it would have no authenticity since there is no knowing how its vibration -if still intact interacts with its recipient.


I would like to know if they are mass produced, I've a feeling they are.

 

[martin]

I seem to remember that they need some personal info to make them, so it's not entirely a mass product.
But even if it was, there are universal mantra's for everyone, and I think the Reiki symbols are also universal?

 

[luz]

I guess the bottom line is that nothing works like 'magic'.
The proof is the person posting here because their three toi mokais did not work!

So, isn't that the problem, then, the promise that if you purchase a toi mokai your dreams will come true? And, how do you justify a price of 100+ for a small seal (is that what it is they sell you?) It does sound like a rip off to me.

If the problem is that you need the right attitude to go through the door, and toi mokai doesn't help you with that, I'll say you can use any talisman you choose to use and it will work just as well.

I

 

[Tohpol]

I seem to remember that they need some personal info to make them, so it's not entirely a mass product. But even if it was, there are universal mantra's for everyone, and I think the Reiki symbols are also universal?

I don't think whether they mass produced or not is the issue. The real issue seems to me to be a clear reference to how we view reality. Whether reality is there to be forced into existence for our wishes and desires, which are coloured with all kinds of expectations and anticipations, or whether we allow Creation "to flow down" towards us by virtue of changing ourselves.

This is an interesting topic as it goes to the heart of "You Create your own reality" deal (or YCYOR) which I think things like "Toki Moai" and "The Secret" and all manner of other aids and tools subtlely and not so subtlely shift the emphasis towards a spiritual consumerism that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Self-knowledge and understanding. It has nothing whatsoever to do with development. That said I would fight for the right of everyone to use such things if they wanted to.

I think there is a very clear distinction between the IC and Toki Moai. The former encourages self-work from within the latter encourages focus on largely material gains from without. The IC - at it's best - is an art and a parallel process as we grow (and it's free) The Toki-Moai is a ritual that requires no thinking or self-awareness and is inevitably focused on wishes and selfish needs - that being the arbitor of our world right now. IC offers the choice to go deeper if we so wish. Toki-Moai does not. It's an object far closer to the tradition of Magick and floating in the air of our own intense anticipations. And anticipation tends to cloud the manifestation of an outcome imo.

The IC can be used in a superficial way and God knows I have used it that way in the past. I hope I'm learning not to now. But there does seem to be a depth of meaning and application waiting to be understood and applied. It can teach you. It is more than just a tool but an interface or conduit, imo. Tools are just that and they offer short-term fixes and transitory effects that can certainly get you through difficult times. But the claims are not this. They claim to change your life. It's a little like the thousands of dollars that are spent on weekend seminars that claim to connect you to your higher self or get you in touch with your Angel guardian - for a hefty price. Then participants complain that they're paid $500 and there STILL not enlightened...

Anyway, I think everyone is kind of on the same page...I think...but there's something missing in all this...this connection with YCYOR is the crux of the matter. I want to say more on that if I can get my thoughts together.

Fascinating topic.

Topal

 

[martin]

This is an interesting topic as it goes to the heart of "You Create your own reality" deal (or YCYOR) which I think things like "Toki Moai" and "The Secret" and all manner of other aids and tools subtlely and not so subtlely shift the emphasis towards a spiritual consumerism that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Self-knowledge and understanding.

Yes! The subtle and not so subtle shift, from YCYOR as Seth explains it to "I want a big house in the Bahama's next week plus 3 cars, a black dog with blue eyes and a loving wife, next week .. no, make that tomorrow, I Create My Own Reality!"

Of course it's not always that crude, but still, holy ego, what a distortion, and this is called 'spirituality'?

 

[martin]

I don't know about toki. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but in any case, as with the Yi, a lot depends on how it is used.
Perhaps 'the challenge of our time' is to find some kind of balance between the mystical and the magical, between surrender and self empowerment?

 

[mudpie]

There was a woman who made a "treasure map"..it was a new agey tool she'd heard of where you paste pictures on a board of everything you want in life, and put it where you see it every day.
one day about a year later, she looked up and realized that she now had in her life evrything that was on that board...even a red sports car, zoom , zoom.

well, well. it was the use of a magical tool and it really did work, and it resulted in manifesting material goodies.

the real treasure though, was that after that, the woman was inspired....material goodies are great, and there is nothing UNspiritual about wanting them, OR getting them, but everyone knows they don't completely satisfy the soul longtterm...however what did nourish this woman's soul was the knowledge that she was indeed a spiritual being who could use her energy and intention to move and shape forms within her life, to create and have fun and expand and use this gift of life/energy in ways that were truly enjoyable and just plain good for everyone including herself.

tokis work. initial disappointment doesnt mean: "give up" it means: "dissolve the blockages" ...be lighter

the thing that's an absolute must, is a little bit of " pixie dust " ...the dust is an absolute must.

 

[martin]

Lovely story.
Yes, be lighter ..

 

[hollis]

: )

Sold. As I said in the beginning of this thread, Toki Moai, footinmouth ,here I come.

 

[heylise]

Trojan: You speak as if sacred/magic/esoteric symbols have no vibrational power of their own though I think one needs to be attuned to their energy to work with them as in reiki but it really doesn't just amount to the power of expectations wishful thinking etc - i know from experience it can operate independently from that. If something is mass produced i doubt if it holds that power.

I was not speaking of sacred/magic/esoteric symbols, but of the human mind making a small thing into a symbol of his own desires. I don’t think ‘wanting’ is bad. You can want simple things, lofty things, material things, spiritual things, selfish things, altruistic things, all kinds of things. If they are good or not, is up to yourself. There is no law which says that spiritual is better than material, only for some it is, for others not.
When you want something to manifest in your life, it helps to focus on it. Not only the ‘thing’ but also your mind and means with which you might make it happen.
‘Thought’ can do something, but it is not really powerful. A very strong inner wish has much more power. Making that wish visible, not as thought but as a tangible thing gives it a channel towards manifestation.
A pebble in your pocket can do that. If the pebble was found in a special place, or has a special form, or was a special gift or whatever else special, it works better. If it is a sacred/magic/esoteric symbol even more so. But these are only graduations. The pebble works, and the icon works.
The Catholic church sends thousands of plastic rosaries to Africa. They are pink and light up in the dark and they are mass-produced. What are they, a fake or a sacred symbol? Good thing about them is that they cost nothing. I also don’t like the people who sell such things for a lot of money, but that does not change the fact that they can work.

Martin: I don't know about toki. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but in any case, as with the Yi, a lot depends on how it is used.
Perhaps 'the challenge of our time' is to find some kind of balance between the mystical and the magical, between surrender and self empowerment?

Yes, I also think everything depends on the owner. Do you believe in it, but most of all, do you believe in your own deep wishes. I don’t think it works for a “light” wish, like wanting to win the lottery. But when someone is not able to support his family and has this huge wish to give them a good life, it might very well make him get money in some way or another. It is the big ‘must’ of the wish which is in the end the power which makes things happen.

If you believe the power is in the thing, then it is something different. Then it is an object of worship, I think. You try to attune to a higher vibration. That is valuable too, but I think it is something different, or else at the other end of a broad range of ‘special’ objects.

Mm, I hope I am not just rambling along. Had not really much time to think about it today.

LiSe