Understanding the Yi

[jbutler]

I want to ask basic questions about the Yi. In what way do we ask questions? What does "present" "changes" and "future" mean? Are the responses based on our images, of what we see inside ourselves or what? That's enough to get started.

i ask these questions because the answers are very confusing sometimes. Sometimes, it seems like the Yi is telling me to leave, or give up, when it is really addressing my inner core of beliefs! Sometimes, the responses are also enough to throw the Yi across the room in frustration because it offers answers unrelated, or could give a MUCH better response. Sometimes, my level of acceptance and peace is just fine, and then it gives me an answer that makes me ask WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? So, perhaps it is the way I ask the questions, although I think it answers in the spirit of the question and not how the question is asked.

I am trying to avoid much anxiety over the responses. Thank you for your responses.

Also, is it better to choose one interpretation or to read as many as possible? For instance, Wings response to 45.6 makes a separation sound permanent, whereas Taoist iChing makes it sound more promising, more human, less dramatic. Comments on this is appreciated too. Thanks

 

[jbutler]

I posted 45.6 as an example, but my question was "What are the consequences if I stay with Jackie?" 45.6 > 12.

The question before that was, "What is the consequences of leaving Jackie?" 28.6 > 44. If I stayed, I would cry and cry because it would be a long time until we can get together.

We live apart, and although there are deep feelings between us, my lower self thinks it might be better to break it off. I'm not being much of a man by being so cowardly and running away, so if I stay, I will cry because I long to be with her.

28.6 tells me that although my goal is worth accomplishing, who could blame me for leaving? The task is hard, I may be over my head, but if I handle the danger (the hard tasks) ahead of me, I can't be blamed for staying either.

Really, the choice is mine. In this case, the Yi told me what I already knew. I want to stay, but the inconvenience and harsh feelings I have will work out, over time, but am I willing to spend that much time on it? Yes, I am. Am I strong enough? Yes, I am, but I wax and wane and I do get tired of waiting. Love waits.

But the point is, Yi told me what I already knew but if I took other peoples commentaries and comments, I might believe that I was reading it all wrong. Yi gets awfully dramatic sometimes. That's what prompted me to ask the questions.

 

[jbutler]

Oops, I didn't mean to imply I was leaving because I'm not. I'm staying. After reading what I wrote, I can see why you would think I was going to leave. There is too much to lose. It may seem over my head, but I can deal with it, and the Yi is reminding me of what I already know. It is more like the Yi is saying -- let me remind you that this can get very overwhelming, but if you stay, your rewards won't come for a while, and when they do, you'll be happy with them. So, I'm staying, she seems happy that I am, but we are separate and it hurts us both. I am confident that we will be together and so is she. It is just going to take time.

 

[tuckchang]

In my opinion

I want to ask basic questions about the Yi. In what way do we ask questions? What does "present" "changes" and "future" mean? Are the responses based on our images, of what we see inside ourselves or what? That's enough to get started.

Hi jbutler,

It is ok to ask a question from two opposite sides.

The text (I mean the original one) of Yi stands still. The advice of a hexagram or a line obtained by divination depends on your reading method and your understanding of the hexagram or the text.

For example:
If 45.6 > 12 is your reading method, 45.6 means the present, > the change, and 12 the future, you shall read them as they are.

Your question: What are the consequences if I stay with Jackie?
My interpretation of 45.6 (the present) is: it is weeping because it can’t get what it intends (the gathering), but no fault or calamity because it shouldn’t (it means a fault or calamity if it insists on getting it); 12 (the future) is: blockage or no interaction (since it doesn’t comply with human norm or …; it is not advantageous (or appropriate) for a gentleman to persist; the big one has gone, while the small one come, which refers to the hexagram changing from 11 to 12, and loss.)

Your question: What are the consequences of leaving Jackie?
My interpretation of 28.6 (the present) is: owing to the overloading of 28.2.3.4.5 (Yang) on 28.1.6 (Yin), 28.6 is deluged, which is ominous; but no fault or calamity if it solves the problem and it is the one that can solve the problem. 44 (the future): 44.1 (Yin) will gradually overpower 44.2.3.4.5.6 (Yang, which means the problem will be gradually solved); the female is vigorous, and do not marry such a female.

I don’t mean that the abovementioned interpretations are correct to your questions; you might get different answers if you approach others, which is just like getting different answers via different reading methods.

What I intend to say is: what is your reading method and your understanding of Yi? For your information, a good and professional diviner in my country, at least, possesses a clear understanding (to him) of the hexagram or the text and a simply reading method (i.e. when the moving line will change) directly guiding him to the answer (of the future, or even the past if it is the one request, i.e. what is intended to know). Accuracy (i.e. how to get a correct hexagram or line to the question) is another subject.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

 

[jbutler]

Maybe, I shouldn't be doing this at all because I don't understand the hexagrams. I don't have any idea of how they came to be and how they apply to each other. I am very naive. I think I understand that they reflect our minds and not the outside world. Jung had a lot to say about it in Synchronicity, which I read. He condones iChing because it helps a person to dig deep into the subconscious, and there are many ways to dig deep other than icing, which is inaccurate, but as far as telling the future or actually reflect the real world, Yi does not. It is as cloudy or clear as our minds are. That much I understand. you didn't address the part that Jackie and I are already married, have a great relationship when we are together, but we are apart and I only gave the examples to hopefully illicit some help and that was all. It may reflect a current or immediate reading, but as far as long range future, it does not. Your reading is incorrect. sorry.

 

[jbutler]

After doing another reading with the same questions, I get 22.6 > 37 What are the consequences of staying with Jackie? What are the consequences of of continuing with jackie? 57.2 53 Similar questions, far different answers. So, I an frustrated and confused by the Yi and not so much about the relationship jackie and i have. Back to the point, In what way do we ask questions? What does "present" "changes" and "future" mean? Are the responses based on our images, of what we see inside ourselves?

 

[jbutler]

I think bidding my time and waiting for rewards was a poor way of saying it, but that is what my interpretation of those hexagrams said. So, I said them. At any rate, thank you for your time and effort in this, but the question isn't about my relationship, I just want to know how to What I intend to say is: what is your reading method and your understanding of Yi? For your information, a good and professional diviner in my country, at least, possesses a clear understanding (to him) of the hexagram or the text and a simply reading method (i.e. when the moving line will change) directly guiding him to the answer (of the future, or even the past if it is the one request, i.e. what is intended to know). Accuracy (i.e. how to get a correct hexagram or line to the question) is another subject. as tuckchang says it. I am interested in learning how to do this. Thank you.

 

[bradford]

Also, is it better to choose one interpretation or to read as many as possible? For instance, Wings response to 45.6 makes a separation sound permanent, whereas Taoist iChing makes it sound more promising, more human, less dramatic. Comments on this is appreciated too. Thanks

I would advise not reading any interpretations at all at this stage, but to read true translations instead, and to do some investigating to find at least three reliable ones to use. When you begin with interpretations you are already off center and halfway down somebody else's path.

 

[jbutler]

Thank you bradford for the link. I appreciate it. Trojan erased a bunch of comments which I wish he would have left because they were useful. At any rate, I will look at the PDF's. Thanks again.

 

[tuckchang]

In my country, now and past, the divination of Yi is and was mainly used for asking advice for the future. From the Confucian perspective, studying the I Ching can also lead to an understanding of human life.

The most of I Ching classes here start from studying the hexagram theory, and then the text as well as the divination case. However one’s own understanding must come from self enlightenment by a large scale of readings but all based on the original text. In my opinion, when one realizes why Yi tells all those, Yi becomes one part of his.

Each diviner might have his own realization based on the text, or the image, or the experience, or ….. . When people here go to see a diviner, they leave everything to the diviner.

Therefore in my opinion, how to avoid the subjective willing is one the main subjects while practicing self-divination. When the advice of staying is painful and leads to fault or calamity, and the situation will change from good to bad; on the other hand, leaving is the stress but action will solve it and all depend on self. The question is: are people willing to accept the advice if it is against their wish? Or, they will do another divination or try to find an interpretation suited for them? Or, they will throw Yi across the room. To me, all are Ok. Yi only gives advice, not order, and won’t guaranty success. 99.9% people live without Yi.

I said: I don’t mean that my interpretation is correct to you but different interpretations and reading methods will lead to different results, but people who want to communicate with Yi must have their own understanding of Yi, not by picking up a little bit here and there, as well as a reading method which can guide Yi to the answer.

Accuracy is always an issue that a diviner pursues. The diviner here makes use of religion, or spirit, or … in order to reach the magic power. I believe something there controlling us but I can own it, at least I pay sincerity. When one repeatedly divined for the same question, why he didn’t get Hex 4 is what I am wondering.

By the way, the text of hex 44 ‘the female is vigorous, and do not marry such a female’ is derived from its image: the female power starts to prevail. Hex 44 also means a lot of others and a simple text can’t cover everything. Don’t read it literally but try to understand its spirit.

If the abovementioned is too complicate or difficult, usually I will just toss a coin, head mean yes and tail, no.

Regards
Tuck

 

[meng]

I didn't pay much attention to Tuck's interpretation, but really enjoyed his points about "Understanding the Yi", as an oracle.

I have found his "throw Yi across the room" method to be personally rewarding.

 

[jbutler]

For tuckchang: I certainly can understand your opinions about the Yi, thank you. The flaw in your sentence "When the advice of staying is painful and leads to fault or calamity, and the situation will change from good to bad; on the other hand, leaving is the stress but action will solve it and all depend on self" is that it isn't ultimately correct. During WWII, if we left the war just to make ourselves comfortable, then we would have forfeited our freedom. There were many "faults and calamities" during that time in history. Our lives are FULL of faults and calamities, and is during these times I grow deeper and stronger. If the flower budding out of the ground turns back from the drive up because it is painful, it would never ever mature. So, I just find life being much different than you describe. Many of my patients find grief very painful, full of calamity and strife, but on the other side of that grief is resolution, peace, and sometimes reconciliation. Also, no offense, but your statement also isn't congruent with Yi. Sometimes we NEED to fight, but sometimes we need to run! Discernment is a big key to living peacefully and with dignity and grace.

Basically, I want to communicate with my higher power, God if you will, the sage is another word for God in my mind, or higher self; at any rate, I find most of the time I have the answers I need inside me, and yes I ask the really hard questions, not so much to be told what to do, but to see what I am not seeing, to hear what is truly meant in the message, and this is difficult sometimes. Your right, reading the Yi is understanding the spirit of its message. Thanks for your input and help. I found the hex 44 information useful.

For meng: LOL sometimes I do too.

 

[iams girl]

I posted 45.6 as an example, but my question was "What are the consequences if I stay with Jackie?" 45.6 > 12.

The question before that was, "What is the consequences of leaving Jackie?" 28.6 > 44.

Hi J,

My experience has resonated with those who've said they see the second hexagram as expressing something about one's "interior" condition and the first hexagram (with changing lines) as the "exterior" work or situation. It don't see it changing your conclusions, but it might help give you a slightly different perspective that makes more sense.

So for example very generally, I'd read your first cast as expressing an inner sense of standstill (12), but pointing to the work leading to eventual success (45.6).

In the second cast, expressing your inner longing for closeness (44) and, although overwhelming if you left, it would be without blame (28.6).

After doing another reading with the same questions, I get 22.6 > 37 What are the consequences of staying with Jackie? What are the consequences of of continuing with jackie? 57.2 53 Similar questions, far different answers. So, I an frustrated and confused by the Yi and not so much about the relationship jackie and i have.

Even though the questions are similar, they were asked at different time, so I'd say that each time Yi captured a slightly different sense of things.

For the first question, I think you mean 22.6> 36? Here, again very generally, a sense of feeling wounded within (36), but highlights the potential for perseverance to be honored (22.6).

And the second, a sense of slow, but positive progress within (53), but still the work of dealing with many unknowns without (57.2).

Really, the choice is mine. In this case, the Yi told me what I already knew.

Nothing like Yi confirming the truth of things, don't you think? Option one: rock, option two: hard place!

But the point is, Yi told me what I already knew but if I took other peoples commentaries and comments, I might believe that I was reading it all wrong.

Bradford has a great point to stick to some authentic translations, but sometimes I find the "raw" translations are also confusing. I think, with a healthy dose of common sense which you seem to have in ample supply, it's a matter of finding trusted commentaries over time as well.