Unusual reading

[b9anders]

I am a practising Buddhist, currently visiting Thailand. Recently, I've been visiting some Theravada teachers there and we talked about my practise. I was recommended practising to develop one-pointed concentration (through focusing on one object, for instance, the breath). Personally, however, I strongly feel that the 'Zen' way, practising with no formal object, in a state of effortless undirected awareness, is the road I need to be going down right now. So I asked the I Ching how 'filial the Zen way would be at this point' (contrasted by concentration practise), and got Hexagram 62, with lines 1,2 and 4 changing to create hexagram no 11. All in all, I found it rather unclear and couldn't quite divine an essential message here. I was wondering if anyone might have some suggestions.

 

[frandoch]

Hi there,

During my time with the I Ching, I have often had a particular experience, which I would like to share with you.

I ask a question - get an answer - read it - think ?this is no answer? - it?s totally irrelevant to my question - why am I wasting my time with this stuff - etc etc. Some time later, maybe weeks later, when I look back at the reading, I realise, with a sense of shame perhaps, that the answer was crystal clear ? screaming out of the page - but it wasn?t the answer I wanted - so I didn?t see it.

May I gently suggest that you may be doing the same thing. After reading your post and reading the Hexagrams, one word screamed out of the pages at me - ego.

I would not have been surprised if you had been given Hexagram 4

Below I have quoted from the interpretation that has my name on it. That may seem a strange way of putting it, but when I post the circumstances that led up to my writing a beginner?s guide, all will be clear.

Be gentle with yourself.

Michael (Frandoch)


Hex 62 Small is better.

Inner World: More than other times, this is a time to keep a tight rein on your ego. If you indulge your ego-based desires for aggressive measures to ?resolve? the situation, you will regret it. Be especially aware of the dangers of pride concerning your inner development. Such ego behaviour will take you from your path. In this area, as in all others, keep your head down and attend to what is required. Difficult times are tests of your resolve. The ?unwise? respond with anger, resentment, fear, aggression, manipulation and a general striving to deal with the situation instantly. At best, this just leads to exhaustion and at worst to severe misfortune. For the ?wise?, non-action is the solution: a withdrawal to await better times. There is no desire to overcome adversity with force. Acceptance of ?what is?, patience, conscientiousness, self-examination and self-improvement are the way forward. When better times arrive, the ?wise? are in a much stronger position to achieve success.

Line 1: MISFORTUNE - IF YOU TRY TO RUN BEFORE YOU CAN WALK. Don?t exhaust yourself or invite failure by attempting grand endeavours at this time. If this advice has come too late, you must be very careful, because you are not up to the task you have taken on.

Line 2: DO YOUR DUTY - DON?T FLOUT THE SYSTEM. At this time you cannot resolve the matter. Just do what is required of you to the best of your ability. Make alliances, but don?t go over people?s heads unless you have a common interest with those above.

Line 4: WITHDRAW - DON?T TAKE THE LEAD IN ANYTHING. Extreme caution is called for. Make no attempt to force matters to a conclusion. That would be ego. Withdraw. Concentrate on your inner growth at this time.


Hex 11 Peace

Inner World: Be like the growing tree, striving ever upwards towards the light. Examine your inner thoughts and outer actions. Replace your baser instincts with more noble aims in both thought and deed. Do not think that you can eliminate your baser instincts: they are part of your make-up, but you can use your higher ideals to put them in the appropriate place, which is at the service of your higher self. As you do this, the Creative will support you and guide you to prosperity and success.

 

[yellowblue]

B9anders & Frandoch--

Just thoughts here-- Very good thoughts Frandoch, too which I find some similar conclusions and I am no expert, but wanted to comment.

I think that you, B9anders are trying to achieve the highest possible way of success for your goal but maybe the way you have set in your mind to rising to that goal is not enough. Perhaps being open to other means to your goal would be good. Sometimes we see the means as the goal, but the means doesn't always fit the circumstances, so if you bypass what you see as correct to what fits it may be very beneficial to you. When we are open to recieve in a manner that is not always consistent to our perceptive we can most times benefit from it.

Don't be to persistent in your way of meeting your goal-- be open -- there is a possibility that other ways may open a big door for you.

I speak from experience of a sort, in that openess has helped me perserver and progress. My first experience with Zen meditation was extraordinary-- I went into a deep meditation almost immediately for a very lenghty period of time and it was very blissful.

But as times and circumstances change I have had to adapt to try to get there again. However, I don't doubt that I will come again to the Zen "method" and be there again in time.

Hope this is somewhat useful. Just thoughts.

Deb

 

[candid]

Hi B9anders,

11 (peace/enlightenment) is achieved in small steps 62.

There's no doubt in my mind that this is Yi's simple answer to your question. Count breaths and don't strive.

 

[louise]

Michael, it was interesting reading your interpretation of 62 and the lines...is there any chance you could give your interpretation of line 5 in this hexagram too ?

 

[frandoch]

Hi Louise,

Hex 62 Line 5

YOU HAVE THE STRENGTH - BUT NOT THE SUPPORT

You may have all the abilities necessary to achieve your goal, but you cannot do it without the help of able people. Seek them out quietly, and together you will succeed.

Michael.

 

[louise]

Thanks Michael

 

[louise]

B9anders, echoing what Val said elsewhere, I think the interpretations in Wilhelm can be overly judgemental, chastising, punitive. Once receiving these lines, I found them hard to understand, but the message came intuitively later, much more gentle and it simply said "be careful how you fly, you might fall" The tone I perceived was tender not harsh. Like a parents warning "don't climb too high on that wall, you may fall".

 

[b9anders]

Hello all. Thank you very much for your indepth comments, very helpful, Frandoch, and also others.
I too generally, tend to let it resolve itself over time.

Candid, the funny thing is that as I read it, it is not neccesarily counting the breath that is the small step. On the contrary! What was communicated to me, which is also my own impression, is that the clarity that comes with concentration gives a whole different perspective and also power to the practise, because there are no defiling elements in Samadhi (deep cocentration). So Zen, as far as my situation is concerned, actually seems to me to be taking the low road, not attempting grand endeavours (coz Samadhi is not an easy thing), though the results that might come from Samadhi would probably be much more powerful. The lines, as they are presented here (not what I interpreted in the Wilhelm translation when I read it), seem to indicate that undertaking endeavour, focusing the mind in Samadhi, is not filial, because the conditions for it to actually be successful don't seem to be there.
From what I see here, The Zen way of effortlessly releasing things, functions as a kinda preparatory measure for the settling of the mind into Samadhi. All of it leading to... 11 - peace (of mind-Samadhi). Though the timescale of that could easily be years. I wouldn't know.

Some of the advice though, strike me as being generic, regardless of which road is taken, and is in fact, very appropriate for me.

"Make alliances, but don?t go over people?s heads unless you have a common interest with those above." - not quite sure what that is supposed to mean. I might be visiting other teachers on my travels, so I would assume it is related to that....

 

[cal val]

Hi there B9anders...

Nice to meet you.

Actually my first impression was the same as Candid's. 62 is about focusing on the small things...the details. My immediate thought was the Yi was telling you that the technique that focuses on small details will lead directly to peace.

But you did the best thing. You let your intuition find the answer.

I've found it's best to read the Yi with as much intuition and flexibility as possible. Sometimes the answers are in the titles...sometimes they're one sentence in one of the changing lines...sometimes they're not about the question you asked at all...but about a question that's more important and will soon be apparent.

The fact that you're drawn to and curious about the statement, "Make alliances, but don't go over people's heads unless you have a common interest with those above," may indicate that this answer is about something entirely different than the best meditation method for you. That line is good advice for a member of a team...or a subordinate in a work related situation. One of the best ways to lose a job or one's place on the team is to go over one's immediate supervisor's head...to their supervisor...to try to get changes that one wants. If that doesn't ring a bell now or in the near future, then it's just another one of those lines that is superfluous to your answer.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[candid]

Val, I appreciate your reasoning.

B9anders, I agree with Val that you must follow whatever method you are being drawn to, guided by your intuition, even over your teacher's instructions. I surely can't suggest what is right for you, but I'll add why I choose what you refer to as 'the lower path.'

Samadhi amounts to making something out of nothing. Manifestations of deity, images and symbols, realizations and revelations. What does all that amount to but clutter?

Is your object attainment, or peace? Peace isn't attained, its allowed. All we have to do is breathe and still our restless mind.

What good is magic, or knowing all things if we have no peace? If we could transport ourselves to different planes, talk with angels, know the future, comprehend the unfathomable - what would we then have if we don't have peace? And if we do have peace, what need have we of all those things?

 

[frandoch]

Candid,

Very wise words - thank you.

Michael.

 

[cal val]

Candid and B9anders...

I could be wrong, but, through contemplating your posts and my own experience with meditation, I do believe I've gained a better understanding of what the Yi was saying.

B9anders said, "...is that the clarity that comes with concentration gives a whole different perspective and also power to the practise." He also said "...though the results that might come from Samadhi would probably be much more powerful." It's impossible, of course, to know what another person is thinking when they're consulting the Yi or writing posts, but I'm seeing a focus on the power of meditation methods in B9anders' last post.

So...I sat here and thought about my objective for meditation over the years, and it dawned on me it was never about peace...at least on the surface...on a conscious level. It was never about power either. It was never about self-discovery or spiritual growth either. My end objective for meditation was always about earthly goals. What's more important, whatever the objective, it was always about striving. And I believed (without really thinking about it) that all my striving would bring me real peace...lasting peace. HA!

Real peace is something I felt briefly at the end of a dream 25 years ago and I didn't really begin to feel until long after I began my journey of self-discovery...until long after I got out of those self-help books and 'band-aid' solutions and with a 'teacher' who helped me to look into those deep, dark, scary recesses of my 'self' and who helped me begin to take back responsibility and...here's that word that B9anders used...power over my 'self'. As I continue on my journey of self-discovery which I take in small steps...without striving, I feel more and more peace...real peace.

Consequently, I can offer absolutely nothing as to which of those meditation practices is best. But I can tell you this from my understanding of the Yi and my own experience. The Yi's way to peace is through self-discovery. And self-discovery is done in small steps...repeatedly meeting up with the inner self and listening to and absorbing its inner truths. Is this maybe what the Yi is simply trying to tell you, B9anders? To pick the method that will lead to self-discovery in the requisite small steps and, consequently, peace? Is that what you were saying, Candid?

And maybe that's what that last confusing line was trying to tell you B9anders...don't try to pass your inner self and 'go over its head' straight to Buddha...or God...that your inner self is your connection to Buddha or God...that the way to know God is through knowing your 'self.'

Also, B9anders, I don't know what your native language is, but in English, the dictionary definition of the word, filial, means a family relationship...specifically child to parent. I know very little of Zen philosophy and have been pondering your use of that word to define the best method of meditation for you. And because of my limited understanding of the word, I'm having difficulty. I'd love if you'd explain it's meaning in Zen Buddhism and relationship to meditation practices. Hoping to learn something here.

Thank you!

Val

 

[b9anders]

Hi Val - my native language is Danish. Guess I must have completely screwed up the meaning of that word. I kinda understood it as meaning 'auspicious' or something. doh.

Candid, I should also add that I don't consider it to be a generally 'lower' path. Just with different result. Zen is more insight related, self-discovery as Val talks about, whereas concentration is more related to peace and clarity of mind. I see them as being two mutually supportive aspects of the path.

 

[cal val]

B9anders...

So this is a case of the student teaching the teacher then?

I was really thinking I was going to learn a bit about Buddhism here. The Catholics have the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I was thinking that Zen Buddhism may have a father/son Buddha/man relationship. I really know so little about the religion.

Well, all the same, I wish you much peace on your journey of self-discovery...*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[b9anders]

Hi Val

I would say that there is such a relationship, but it is a relationship of man and the Buddha within.

rgds
Anders