what do you think?

[bruce_g]

Esolo, I'm a little confused. You say these things that WF said, which you are now saying are true, are things you said you didn't know about. So, how do you know if what WF said is true?

 

[esolo]

The 'acute embarrassment' is the one thing that I do know about. This guy was embarrassed due to his wife and has suffered a bit of public humiliation. We haven't seen him in some time and we were wondering what's going on between them. Is he still married to her or not? I personally thought that it was probably over given the seriousness of the situation. The IC's answers only seemed to confirm my suspicions. But, Willowfox was 100% on the mark about the 'acute embarrassment'. That was what impressed me because I didn't see 'embarrassment' there in those answers anywhere. So, that must have come from her own intuitive faculties.

 

[bruce_g]

I see. Thanks.

 

[heylise]

Could it be that the issue is not "how Yi works" but how this forum works? Like wf said, " It seems to be only a few people on this "site" who seem to think that it is really bad to ask about other people and their affairs, other "sites" do not have these self imposed rules of conduct."
I think there are more than a few, but most don't speak up because it is quite useless. It ends in contention or even cussing.

So probably many of wf's answers are accurate, and probably it is possible to ask Yi about unethical matters and get a valid answer. Without any morals in it. It is just that this site is not like that. Is - or maybe was.. Other sites are. In fact, most of the internet and a very big part of the whole world is.

I am here on this site precisely because of its high ethics. I am not interested in answers about 'facts' which go against my own feelings. Even when they are totally accurate. That is why I never go to any site where they 'predict' or tell people what they should do. Even when the prediction or advice is accurate.

Campbell has a good expression for it: "grovelling before the facts". You can live according to the facts, and nobody can ever tell you you are wrong. They are the facts after all. But there is another way of living, which is not according to the facts but according to your soul, or ethics, or higher laws, or whatever else you choose to call it. It is a refusal to live in the trail of the facts, it is creating your life, finding your tao. And it can even change the facts...

LiSe

 

[Sparhawk]

Could it be that the issue is not "how Yi works" but how this forum works? Like wf said, " It seems to be only a few people on this "site" who seem to think that it is really bad to ask about other people and their affairs, other "sites" do not have these self imposed rules of conduct."
I think there are more than a few, but most don't speak up because it is quite useless. It ends in contention or even cussing.

So probably many of wf's answers are accurate, and probably it is possible to ask Yi about unethical matters and get a valid answer. Without any morals in it. It is just that this site is not like that. Is - or maybe was.. Other sites are. In fact, most of the internet and a very big part of the whole world is.

AMEN! Perhaps the main reason I don't participate much in other Yi related sites. And one of the reasons why I stay away from much of the Friend's Area. There was a recent case, in another forum, where someone PM me asking for an interpretation for an answer from the Yi where the question was "how do I get back to someone that hurt me?" I blew her off, of course. Perhaps a visit to the witch-du-jour" may be propitious...

L

 

[Trojina]

Could it be that the issue is not "how Yi works" but how this forum works? Like wf said, " It seems to be only a few people on this "site" who seem to think that it is really bad to ask about other people and their affairs, other "sites" do not have these self imposed rules of conduct."
I think there are more than a few, but most don't speak up because it is quite useless. It ends in contention or even cussing.

So probably many of wf's answers are accurate, and probably it is possible to ask Yi about unethical matters and get a valid answer. Without any morals in it. It is just that this site is not like that. Is - or maybe was.. Other sites are. In fact, most of the internet and a very big part of the whole world is.

I am here on this site precisely because of its high ethics. I am not interested in answers about 'facts' which go against my own feelings. Even when they are totally accurate. That is why I never go to any site where they 'predict' or tell people what they should do. Even when the prediction or advice is accurate.

Campbell has a good expression for it: "grovelling before the facts". You can live according to the facts, and nobody can ever tell you you are wrong. They are the facts after all. But there is another way of living, which is not according to the facts but according to your soul, or ethics, or higher laws, or whatever else you choose to call it. It is a refusal to live in the trail of the facts, it is creating your life, finding your tao. And it can even change the facts...

LiSe

Agreed :bows: I want to say i especially dislike health predictions - I have been wanting to say that for some time, i have posted that many times and deleted it cos it'll end in 'cussing' as Lise says - but one shouldn't be silenced cos of that really.

I've been wanting to say for some time how divided this forum has become - the Yi talked about in the discussion area often by the more knowledgable (and i don't include myself in that) hardly seems the same entity in the friends area.

 

[Tohpol]

Agreed :bows: I want to say i especially dislike health predictions - I have been wanting to say that for some time, i have posted that many times and deleted it cos it'll end in 'cussing' as Lise says - but one shouldn't be silenced cos of that really.

I've been wanting to say for some time how divided this forum has become - the Yi talked about in the discussion area often by the more knowledgable (and i don't include myself in that) hardly seems the same entity in the friends area.

I think that's normal - even necessary. In the discussion area it is much more focused i.e. divination, IC technicalities, therefore a little more objective. In the friends area it's bound to be more contentious due to interpretations which are rooted in people's personal problems. There's a detachment often lacking as there's a lot of mirroring going on and how we apply each other's problems to our own lives. Lots of discussion and "stirring of the waters."

You've been here much longer than me Trojan but as far as I can see this is functioning normally. If there's more division as you see it, then there's more potential to grow from it.

Topal

 

[willowfox]

I've been wanting to say for some time how divided this forum has become - the Yi talked about in the discussion area often by the more knowledgable (and i don't include myself in that) hardly seems the same entity in the friends area.

I think that you will indeed find that the forum is divided because the discussion area is dealing with theory while the friend's area is dealing with practice, so each member to his own calling. Members in the discussion area may well be more knowledgeable about the theory of the IC but are they also as knowledgeable in the practice of the IC, that is debatable, don't you agree?

 

[bruce_g]

Members in the discussion area may well be more knowledgeable about the theory of the IC but are they also as knowledgeable in the practice of the IC, that is debatable, don't you agree?

It's not debatable to me. If I seek understanding about a reading, the three or four I'd ask are also those who have studied it most thoroughly (and I don't mean just Wilhelm). Unless someone less knowledgeable has demonstrated a remarkable gift of human insight, I'd always choose the more knowledgeable interpretor.

As far as predictions go, I don't place much stock in them; again, unless an individual has demonstrated a remarkable gift in that area. But I haven't seen that anywhere here.

I console myself by saying, people get what they deserve. If they come, looking for fast, easy answers and predictions, that's all they're prepared to receive. If they seek to understand themselves better, they can find that here too. AND, we all offer a money back guarantee. You get what you pay for. I demand effort from those I work with, but that's another topic.

 

[sophie]

Campbell has a good expression for it: "grovelling before the facts". You can live according to the facts, and nobody can ever tell you you are wrong. They are the facts after all. But there is another way of living, which is not according to the facts but according to your soul, or ethics, or higher laws, or whatever else you choose to call it. It is a refusal to live in the trail of the facts, it is creating your life, finding your tao. And it can even change the facts...

I like that, and it is quite true. It is also very general. Because the trouble is...people don't all have the same notion of ethics, and our souls and hearts don't speak to us in the same fashion. Nor do all Yi interpreters understand the Yi in the same way, even if their intent is to live according to their souls and higher wisdom.

So when two people, who both have what they consider to be good intent, don't agree on ethics, how can they meet? There is space for them both, I take it?

I've found this thread very interesting, on many levels. I am new to this forum, and it has allowed me some insight into forum dynamics. It's also confirmed - to me - that the Yi works on several levels. That is, it can both answer the question asked, and seek to guide the questioner with gentle (and sometimes ungentle) wisdom. I think the hexagram that followed the first one worked on those two levels, both answering Esolo's question, with the help from Willowfox, and speaking to Esolo directly about her motives.

Sometimes I will draw a hexagramme about someone else - unless I suspect foul play, I only do that about people who know I do it, and have agreed that I should, by the way - and I will know when the Yi is telling me - knock it off, Sophie, don't go there. But it took me some practice of the Yi to get there. Or perhaps it is as Bruce was saying a little earlier in the thread - my soul speaking to me, through the Yi. But will it speak the same to another? I don't know, and I won't judge, because I don't consider my ethics to be superior. They are mine. The motto "do no harm" in divination is a pretty good rule of thumb (and hence why Sparhawk's example of blowing off someone who wanted to use the Yi for revenge is different from a question into a person's private life, when that person has disappeared after some personal trouble).

I know that practicing the Yi has taught me a lot about ethics, character and wisdom, about right timing, and about my role in life; but I also use it for divination and prediction and I don't consider such use to be wrong or a debasement of the Yi. The Chinese are practical people, as well as philosophers, and it is that very practicality that I find so refreshing in the Yi.

 

[Sparhawk]

Members in the discussion area may well be more knowledgeable about the theory of the IC but are they also as knowledgeable in the practice of the IC, that is debatable, don't you agree?

Nope. First you must explain, precisely, what is the "practice of the IC"...

L

 

[mudpie]

I hae been unaware of the forum being "divided"....to me it is just people with differing views, differing ways of playing with the energies.

I really have a hard time with the line of thought which contends that the I Ching is only for "learning about yourself", and the implied notion that you get a firm "hand-slap" if you ask about something which, according to the same notion, is "none of your business." I feel the Yi is above that kind of thinking.

Life is an interplay of energies. why should something be considered "not my business?"

Every person will experience the interplay of energies of Life at more or less the same level that they live their lives at. Integrity actually means just that: all the parts of your life/experience vibrate in sync with the level of consciousness you are choosing, consciously or unconsciously.

To cuss someone out because they are disagreeing with you is an indication of a level of consciousness. BUt so is being "snooty" and looking down the nose at someone you consider "immoral" or "unethical" by your standards.

Which is exactly why I say the Yi is above that kind of thing. Pure consciousness has no conception of "right" and "wrong"...it just accepts because inclusiveness is its nature.

 

[bruce_g]

And these reflect your standards? You look down your nose at those who look down their nose, or at those who view Yi as a teacher rather than a future telling tool? Ya see? You can't escape that individuals set their own standards, just as you have.

When you have a mixed bag of people, such as we have here, there's going to be disagreements and some objections. So far as I can tell there's only three choices someone who is dissatisfied has: to be upset and remain, to lie low in the shadows where they are safe to quietly learn and/or criticize, or to leave the forum.

Personally, a fairly liberal dose of detachment with a pinch of apathy has served me well in recent times. I really dislike having to do that, but at least it provides a forth option.

I think occasional hand slapping is pretty benign, even necessary on occasion, for there to be a living group. I like what LiSe has to say in 37.3: "When people trust each other, hard words will be no problem. They can be said when necessary, and dealt with in an easy manner. Laughter holds up the heaviest loads, as expression of freedom and life. Respect is a matter of what functions with ease and health. Not too rigid from fear, but with wisdom and joy."

 

[mudpie]

And these reflect your standards? You look down your nose at those who look down their nose, or at those who view Yi as a teacher rather than a future telling tool? Ya see? You can't escape that individuals set their own standards, just as you have.

"

I am not saying I look down my nose at anyone!
I was just pointing out that in the above posts, there was a polarized discussion and that both polar ends were represented and I didnt feel either were accurately representing Yi's usefulness as an oracle

I did not say I looked down on those who use the Yi as a teaching tool rather than fortune telling tool. My goodness, I have never ever implied anywhere that I thought it was fortune telling tool.
My point was that I have a hard time with injecting one's morality in there, with those comments that imply the yi would respond to an honest question by saying it was none of the querents business. Or with only seeing Yi response as primarily a way to profoundly learn about yourself. In my experience it is playful, truthful, inclusive and sometimes cryptic, sometimes almost ridiculously immediate, and sometimes it predicts, too. It shouldnt be polarized at all.
I felt there was some snootiness towrds the questions asked at times, but why should there be?
I wasnt talking about hand-slapping by other members...i was referring to the notion that some say that yi "slaps hands" (my decription) by answering with a so-to-speak "that not your business, go back to meditating" ie as if it were a school teacher.

If I wanted to ask about my ex-husbands' relationship with his girlfriend, and I genuinely intended to tune in to that energy play, I feel certain the YI could reflect it for me. i just dont see it as ever having to only be questions about "me"..I am not just "me", I am part of the larger energy field and as such, I connected with every other being, all experience. with the Yi, I narrow the focus like a magnifying glass.
It isnt so serious, really, it is playful and it is fun...and wise maybe because it IS fun

I am not unhappy with the forum, I dont mind the different styles

Divination is about reflecting energy flow, not about morality ....

and the oracle itself, as "pure consciousness" ,so to speak, does not draw lines and boxes to delineate what is appropriate to ask and what is not. Those are subjective guidelines.

 

[Trojina]

. So far as I can tell there's only three choices someone who is dissatisfied has: to be upset and remain, to lie low in the shadows where they are safe to quietly learn and/or criticize, or to leave the forum.

Personally, a fairly liberal dose of detachment with a pinch of apathy has served me well in recent times. I really dislike having to do that, but at least it provides a forth option.

."

Yes the 4th option is about the only way to go unless you leave.

 

[Trojina]

and the oracle itself, as "pure consciousness" ,so to speak, does not draw lines and boxes to delineate what is appropriate to ask and what is not. Those are subjective guidelines.

The oracle isn't pure consciousness - pure consciousness would not be manifest - the oracle exists with us on the relative plane of existence or we would not be able to relate to it. Pure consciousness is beyond word and meaning yes - but we are not - its what we use to find our way in the world - the Yi helps us find our way in the world .

As far as I am concerned the Yi is intently concerned with morality - not a fixed or owned morality so to speak but certainly i would say it promotes the good - or promotes us to act well or the best we can in any circumstance.

I don't think questions asked about others private lives with no good reason are answered plain and simple. Hand slapping doesn't come into it they are just non answers and leave the questioner to pointless speculation over what was not their business anyway. I don't give much of a toss if Esolo wants to engage in this its up to her - but more and more people ask these kind of questions lately and they are encouraged when given very definate answers like "he thinks this/she thinks that" .


I see this as a depressing trend - thats just my opinion, hope I'm entitled to it.

Back to enforced apathy for a quiet life i guess - or withdrawal i suppose

 

[bruce_g]

Let's review.

I really have a hard time with the line of thought which contends that the I Ching is only for "learning about yourself", and the implied notion that you get a firm "hand-slap" if you ask about something which, according to the same notion, is "none of your business." I feel the Yi is above that kind of thinking.

In other words, that doesn't agree with your standards. Looking down ones nose was your term, not mine. I'm only pointing out that you have standards, just as others do, and your standards do not always agree with those of others.

Every person will experience the interplay of energies of Life at more or less the same level that they live their lives at. Integrity actually means just that: all the parts of your life/experience vibrate in sync with the level of consciousness you are choosing, consciously or unconsciously.

Again, according to your perceptions and standards. Not everyone agrees. There's more than one definition of integrity, for example. Wholeness and integration is one. Ethical soundness is another. Different people have different understandings of the word, as we do concerning most things.

To cuss someone out because they are disagreeing with you is an indication of a level of consciousness. BUt so is being "snooty" and looking down the nose at someone you consider "immoral" or "unethical" by your standards.

And this is according to your own standards. You do not see how your standards are also set against the standards of others here?

I freely admit that my standards are clear to me, and that I disagree with certain standards demonstrated by certain others. I look down my nose on certain practices. I have no problem admitting that. It doesn't make me right or them wrong, except according to my own standards.

Opposition takes up 1/64th of the Yi. Conflict and contention, another 1/64th. That too is part of what you call playful energies. It's natural. It's gonna happen.

 

[Trojina]

and the oracle itself, as "pure consciousness" ,so to speak, does not draw lines and boxes to delineate what is appropriate to ask and what is not. Those are subjective guidelines.

How do you know this - that the oracle does not draw lines ? Its just your opinion isn't it ? The oracle is pretty subjective, can relate to us subjectively, its not a mindless tool - thats my experience of it.

If i ask a trivial question the Yi will tell me its a trivial question and point me to something else i need to look at. The Yi does not answer everything the way i want it answered. It isn't my servant its my teacher. It draws lines and makes delineations for me to help me make choices. Lol pun eh Yi "does not draw lines " er yes it does draw lines they are called hexagrams and they are fairly detailed and apply with great precision to our question. How is it then given this amazing capacity of the Yi to give such precise answers that it could be incapable of turning away a dumb or irrelevant question ? It can and it does in my experience .

IMO its quite crucial to understand this - to have a space in the awareness for the possibility the Yi might not engage directly with your question - otherwise I see alot of room for misunderstanding

 

[Trojina]

Oh and I think to dismiss concerns aired here as 'snooty' is to misunderstand and denigrate the motives of those raising them in the first place. No offence Listener but I really don't think snootiness prompted any of the posts here.

 

[bruce_g]

Anyhoo, I think it's healthy to talk about these things.

I have nothing against anyone here personally, but I do object to certain practices. Someone else may think my little wormyi cartoons are just juvenile and awful. I'd agree, they are, but I'll prolly keep making them. I love individuality even more than agreement, and the expression which comes from real individuals, most of all.

 

[Sparhawk]

Someone else may think my little wormyi cartoons are just juvenile and awful.

Not me, man. I've got to make a living and those representation commissions pay the bills...

L

 

[bruce_g]

You agents are all alike. It used to be about the message, man!

 

[willowfox]

I also have standards that I follow, and if certain members here don't like what I do then I suggest that they stop being so "snotty" about it and mind their own business. I do not criticize the way you respond or don't respond to people seeking help, I mind my own business until provoked. My objective and only objective is to try and help people, no guilt trips involved at all, no ghosts, ONLY HELP, is that suddenly the wrong thing to do. Are the forum POLICE condemning me for trying to be charitable towards my fellow human beings?
It seems that your objective is to be against anyone who has a different approach or different idea, from yours, on how the IC should or should not be used. You use the IC your way and leave me to use it my way, or is that against your rules as well. I am not here to please the likes of you, so keep your smug comments to yourself, and leave us peasants to get on with our work.

 

[esolo]

WF,

I appreciate your very direct, to the point, interpretations. I get turned off when someone tries to preach to me and that is one reason I don't participate more often. I have no doubt that the IC was answering my questions about this guy and not scolding me for asking them.

 

[Tohpol]

I also have standards that I follow, and if certain members here don't like what I do then I suggest that they stop being so "snotty" about it and mind their own business. I do not criticize the way you respond or don't respond to people seeking help, I mind my own business until provoked. My objective and only objective is to try and help people, no guilt trips involved at all, no ghosts, ONLY HELP, is that suddenly the wrong thing to do. Are the forum POLICE condemning me for trying to be charitable towards my fellow human beings?
It seems that your objective is to be against anyone who has a different approach or different idea, from yours, on how the IC should or should not be used. You use the IC your way and leave me to use it my way, or is that against your rules as well. I am not here to please the likes of you, so keep your smug comments to yourself, and leave us peasants to get on with our work.

Why the aggression WF? I am puzzled. I don't perceive anyone trying to suggest not helping or to condemn. But the WAY to help someone always has to be refined and explored so that help can be as genuine as possible wouldn't you agree? There is always stuff to learn - mostly about ourselves.

Topal

 

[mudpie]

Let's review.



.

what are you, a school teacher? geez. for the last time, it is not about my standards. pointing out a polarity is not creating a standard

 

[bruce_g]

what are you, a school teacher? geez. for the last time, it is not about my standards. pointing out a polarity is not creating a standard

No, I'm not a school teacher, and my comment was not meant to be condescending. It was meant to point out that you were expressing your own standards. You don't agree. C'est la vie.

 

[heylise]

I am totally at ease with lots of different views. As long as all views are allowed and are open for discussion. Wf thinks we are against her, but maybe she should read her own reactions to remarks from us again? F-words and *** words. Who is here the one who is 'against'? Those words of abuse were not used against posts of attack, they were used against posts of inquiry, asking where she got her knowledge from, what source she used. Yes, there was criticism, but she saw it all as attack. It should be possible in a forum to voice criticism when something seems not right to you. And then talk it out together.

WF, if you really want to mind your own business, then why post in a forum? Every post here regards all of us. This place is open for criticism, acclaim, admiration, disagreement, discussion, for every exchange which is not negative. Contrary to what you think, criticism is not negative. It can trigger a very fruitful exchange. If you yourself believe in what you do, it is easy to answer to it, it can even bring others interesting and new views on things.
I think many of your readings are good, it is a shame that it is hardly - or not at all - possible to talk about them.

The trouble I have with the forum lately, is only this lack of exchange. Of course there are many views which are not at all like mine. Great, that makes for nice subjects to exchange about. There is not much talking possible about what we agree on. Things begin to get interesting when we disagree.

LiSe

 

[Tohpol]

Things begin to get interesting when we disagree.
LiSe

Amen!

I think the trick is not to get defensive and take it all so personally. At the same time, it depends on how folks approach it. We'[ve all got different styles which will trigger certain reactions at times. Some personalities will rub each other up the wrong way whatever happens. Sometimes too constructive criticism will be perceived as attacking one's cherished beliefs which are so rooted in a sense of self.

Then there is the question of why persons are present in forums and any other group: to truly help and to work on themselves? Or to "help" under the guise of propping up the ego and feeling important. Probably a bit of both. It helps to keep such things in mind if we really want to help others besides just our self-importance. These are all healthy things to think about I reckon.

I'll tell you one thing. When I found this forum about two years ago I used to regularly look through the threads. My first thought was: "Geeze. Talk about a bunch of obsessives!" It was only when I looked deeply into the matter some more and after certain crises that I saw the deeper levels and richness at work. This is true for all things that merit some value. Effort balanced with poise. Not easy - but pays dividends in the end.

At least - I hope so...

Topal

 

[rosada]

BTW, I think the I Ching rather approves of school teachers:

"The superior man discriminates between high and low, and thereby fortifies the thinking of the people."

"The superior man is inexhaustible in his will to teach, and without limits in his tolerance and protection of the people."

"The kings of old visited the regions of the world, contemplated the people, and gave them instruction."

"The superior man walks in virtue and carries on the business of teaching."