what do you think?

[bruce_g]

Rosada, that's a very good point. I have teachers here, that's for sure. I wish they would pipe up more often. Maybe they've reached a point where they no longer need to speak. I can respect that. Or, maybe they think that speaking might fall on deaf ears. I respect that too.

The thing about a teacher and student, especially in this less structured environment (meaning, it is not a school per se), is that they must be mutually selected. A teacher accepts a student and the student selects the teacher. We don't have that here, or at least not in some formal way. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't, but this forum isn't set up that way.

For example, I would love to discuss and/or argue with Bradford his gua 23. I don't understand where he's coming from with it, and it seems I'm coming from a different place. Same with his 44. I'd love to get to the bottom of these sorts of things. Point being, though I regard Brad as a teacher, that doesn't mean I can not disagree with some of what he's arrived at.

I honestly can't think of anyone here who is not my teacher.

 

[bruce_g]

Sometimes too constructive criticism will be perceived as attacking one's cherished beliefs which are so rooted in a sense of self.

That's a tough one. It is a giant of a program, running in our head since the first day we had to defend ourselves in this life. And it's been running ever since. One magnificent 26, that self.

 

[maremaria]

I honestly can't think of anyone here who is not my teacher.

I agree with you bruce. I see this forum as a pool of differend "ways of thinking". I really enjoy discussions like the one he had .

I wish they would pipe up more often. Maybe they've reached a point where they no longer need to speak. I can respect that. Or, maybe they think that speaking might fall on deaf ears. I respect that too.

I respect too their desicion not to speak but I'ld like to hearing from them. We the new ones need you the more experienced .

 

[sophie]

I respect too their desicion not to speak but I'ld like to hearing from them. We the new ones need you the more experienced .

Hear hear!

 

[esolo]

Wf thinks we are against her, but maybe she should read her own reactions to remarks from us again? F-words and *** words. Who is here the one who is 'against'? Those words of abuse were not used against posts of attack, they were used against posts of inquiry, asking where she got her knowledge from, what source she used. Yes, there was criticism, but she saw it all as attack. It should be possible in a forum to voice criticism when something seems not right to you. And then talk it out together.

I've felt, many times, the way WF feels. There's a tone of spiritual smug-ness here that I don't like. Instead of directly answering the questions posed by inquirers, the 'helpers' often start dispensing advice. "Oh, you shouldn't ask that question." or something more vague like, "You need to grow a bit more before you understand how to really use the IC." Then, and it always seems to happen, the 'superior' beings start having a discussion around the person who asked, hijacking the thread to talk about their deep 'insight' into the nature of the IC. That's exactly what has happened here. It's really boring.

Oh, and here's a new reading about the situation. I'm sure that you'll all have fun with this one:

How does he feel when he thinks about all the gossip surrounding his marital problems?

4, unchanging

I think he feels stupid, foolish and probably exactly as WF said, embarrased. Now, someone will no doubt step in to scold me and point out that the IC was actually telling me that I'm stupid and foolish.

 

[willowfox]

I've felt, many times, the way WF feels. There's a tone of spiritual smug-ness here that I don't like. Instead of directly answering the questions posed by inquirers, the 'helpers' often start dispensing advice. "Oh, you shouldn't ask that question." or something more vague like, "You need to grow a bit more before you understand how to really use the IC." Then, and it always seems to happen, the 'superior' beings start having a discussion around the person who asked, hijacking the thread to talk about their deep 'insight' into the nature of the IC. That's exactly what has happened here. It's really boring.

I totally agree with what you say because it is all true.

 

[bruce_g]

I totally agree with what you say because it is all true.

Me too. Smug bastards!

 

[esolo]

I totally agree with what you say because it is all true.

There should be a drop-down menu of some pre-set phrases that the 'superior' ones can insert into their posts, the first one being,

"I wonder if the IC was really answering your question."

At that point the querent will no doubt ask his/herself, and perhaps say here "Wow, maybe I need another IC to help me understand what the IC is telling me. This is so difficult!"

That's when one of the usual annoying suspects will appear with even more sage advice that will further confuse. That's why I rarely post here.

 

[bruce_g]

Esolo, I think you make a good and useful point. There should be a code word, which signifies a desire for non-reflective type of answers. Not everyone is interested in that stuff. Perhaps if you, or anyone who comes here looking for interpretations, makes it clear, it might eliminate all the stuff which doesn't interest you, plus it might altogether eliminate the kind of correction and criticism that you find offensive.

Or even better, you could specify the interpreter you wish help from. Looking over your string of threads/questions, WF has been steadily there for you. Nothing wrong with sticking with one interpretor. In fact, I think more can often be accomplished one on one than in a public forum. I know for a fact that some folks I help with private readings would get completely lost in a public forum, such as this.

 

[Trojina]

esolo, I said this elsewhere and I'll repeat it here cos I'm so sick of these issues being repackaged as some of us saying its wrong to ask such and such a question.

My POV is it is not wrong to ask a question about someone elses marriage that has nothing to do with you - that is you don't wish to help its just idle curiosity - thats not wrong - well it can't be because you simply won't be answered in a meaningful way or your answer points back at you. So its not wrong its just pointless IMO

I believe the Yi only supports and encourages the best and highest in a situation - in other words 'good' - and more specifically the best for ones own development as relating to the situation. Ask away all you like - waste hours in fruitless speculation over others business if you enjoy it as you do seem to.

 

[luz]

Well, what I think is that it becomes more than a waste of time when you bring your speculations out in public and invite others to speculate with you.

I mean, we don't know this guy at all (except for Esolo) but we are all here participating in the exposure of his failed marriage, his public humilliation and we are all trying to find out more! And the I ching is helping us!! What a riot!

This is called gossip, which can be fun, I suppose, but perhaps not really one of the virtues anybody actively tries to cultivate. Certainly not a virtue that will improve your standing in anybody's eyes.

But what really appalls me are the expectations people bring here when they post a question. They complain of boring or preaching answers but why do they post in the first place? Is there an advertisement somewhere that brings you to this site for 'free personal readings'? Do they come with a satisfaction guaranteed label? How can anybody complain!?

And if you are only looking for a particular member's response, why not private message them? It will be easier on the querent and on everybody else.

 

[mudpie]

esolo, I said this elsewhere and I'll repeat it here cos I'm so sick of these issues being repackaged as some of us saying its wrong to ask such and such a question.

My POV is it is not wrong to ask a question about someone elses marriage that has nothing to do with you - that is you don't wish to help its just idle curiosity - thats not wrong - well it can't be because you simply won't be answered in a meaningful way or your answer points back at you. So its not wrong its just pointless IMO

I believe the Yi only supports and encourages the best and highest in a situation - in other words 'good' - and more specifically the best for ones own development as relating to the situation. Ask away all you like - waste hours in fruitless speculation over others business if you enjoy it as you do seem to.

you re not saying it is wrong to ask the question, just that it is meaningless.

BUt what if, as a psychologist, one is asking for insight into a family's problems, or a client's nature? (valid lines of questions IMO, and ones that can certainly get insightful responses from the I Ching.)

What you are saying< trojan , is that the Yi has a "morality meter", so to speak, which differentiates between questions that are "for the good" and those which are of the petty gossip nature.

Well, I must say, I am backing off to consider this. Perhaps it is something worth thinking about.

I tend to think that even the petty gossip questions get valid response..........and I will add that when I have indulged myself with "petty gossip" questions about other people, my responses DO make sense, but they often result in my getting a clearer and more compassionate view of the person(s) I am asking about.

Many times I have asked about the nature of an "adversary" in my life, only to given "glowing reviews" of the person from the Yi...which has made me gnash my teeth in frustration because I came looking for validation that someone was an idiot!!! BUt the Yi has always gently led me back to considering that I am not seeing that person in his/her entirety.

and I have a great deal of compassion now for the person here that esolo was asking about, FWIW

 

[esolo]

and I have a great deal of compassion now for the person here that esolo was asking about, FWIW

Why? I'm not saying that you shouldn't I'm just wondering why you would care.

Btw, I have compassion for him as well, even though I think he brought a lot of it on himself. The answers just confirmed what I already suspected.

 

[Trojina]

you re not saying it is wrong to ask the question, just that it is meaningless.

BUt what if, as a psychologist, one is asking for insight into a family's problems, or a client's nature? (valid lines of questions IMO, and ones that can certainly get insightful responses from the I Ching.)

Yes IMO in the case you give above I could see no reason why the Yi would not give valid answers. The problem I face in trying to explain my POV is that it may sound like I am imposing my morality but all I'm really saying is I believe the Yi supports the highest good or whatever term one wants to use - that is beyond any human system of morals- all situations being so complex. For example I don't believe the Yi would support or answer anyone wanting to know how to hurt or injure another person _ I think it would either reflect back on the querants motives or just give meaningless answers. In that sense I believe the Yi only supports the highest good or the harmless - lol some of my questions are indeed so trivial I wonder if there could be a 'highest good ' in them but there might be

What you are saying< trojan , is that the Yi has a "morality meter", so to speak, which differentiates between questions that are "for the good" and those which are of the petty gossip nature.

Well, I must say, I am backing off to consider this. Perhaps it is something worth thinking about.

I think the Yi is way beyond our systems of morality - after all our moral systems always fail us - they are limited and we don't get the whole picture etc. I believe the Yi having a wider deeper consciousness - perhaps you would call it 'pure conscousness' can certainly differentiate between questions that support the greater good of all concerned or are harmful yes. I've always thought that - I used to think everyone else thought the same too

I tend to think that even the petty gossip questions get valid response..........and I will add that when I have indulged myself with "petty gossip" questions about other people, my responses DO make sense, but they often result in my getting a clearer and more compassionate view of the person(s) I am asking about.

Thats interesting hmmm especially if they lead you to a more compassionate view of the person - but even here I think the Yi tells you what you need to know to lead you the best relation with that person possible. I do think that what is private to another cannot be invaded - seems a basic law of respect for another - just like i would not read someones diary without their knowledge, to me that would be a violation of someones privacy. I cannot believe the Yi would support violation of anothers privacy - I can believe though that if you are open to its guidance it would lead to better understanding of that person for you even if you think its petty gossip.

Many times I have asked about the nature of an "adversary" in my life, only to given "glowing reviews" of the person from the Yi...which has made me gnash my teeth in frustration because I came looking for validation that someone was an idiot!!! BUt the Yi has always gently led me back to considering that I am not seeing that person in his/her entirety.

Yes I had that experience too its really annoying is'nt it ! The Yi just won't say anything bad about a person you're convinced is trying to mess with you - frustrating yes - but always turns out to be right in the end.


[/quote]and I have a great deal of compassion now for the person here that esolo was asking about, FWIW[/QUOTE]

Yes i don't think there is any hard and fast rule about what questions are and are not allowed - I think the Yi is cleverer than that and knows the motive in our heart however we phrase the question.

I don't think anyone ever said to Esolo "you must not ask this question" but were trying to suggest her motive in the questioning could have some bearing on how she was answered.

I think it comes down to the difference in how we view what the Yi is. Esolo and Wfox have said they do consider the Yi is some kind of slot machine - a dumb servant - there to give you the answer to exactly what you want to know. I see the Yi as a being, a sacred consciousness - far more intelligent than myself - who does turn away my questions when they are useless to me and points me in the direction i need to go.

I think the Yi will answer however you see it - but I do think its quite able to decide how it answers - always for the highest good IMO.

 

[willowfox]

I see the Yi as a being, a sacred consciousness - far more intelligent than myself - who does turn away my questions when they are useless to me and points me in the direction i need to go.

Sounds like you are talking about god not an oracle.

 

[bruce_g]

Sounds like you are talking about god not an oracle.

No oracle is an island unto itself.

 

[Trojina]

Sounds like you are talking about god not an oracle.

Funny you should say that as i was just thinking if I thought the Yi did not have the purpose of guiding us towards what is highest and best for us, that it was just a dumb answering machine i would not even bother consulting it - for me then it would be utterly worthless.

I'd really love to know exactly what you think the Yi is Wfox - i think you said elsewhere you did think it was a neutral answer machine. What do you think an oracle is ?

 

[laylab]

Dear Thread Starter ,
Getting into everyone else's business is just a crux we use to keep us out of our own.

The Universe has it's own business, you have yours and the rest of us have our own.
Anytime I assume to have the right to be in someone else's business (as recently experienced) I end up neglecting my own and forgetting myself.

Get back to you, forget whether this guy is married or not.

What is this? I Ching Water Cooler Chat Day? LOL

 

[willowfox]

I'd really love to know exactly what you think the Yi is Wfox - i think you said elsewhere you did think it was a neutral answer machine.

I see the IC as a tool for divination, I see it is as being 100% neutral, and I don't see it as being the word of god. I see that it will always answer any question put to it, it never matters what the intention of the querant may be, the IC has no feelings of right or wrong, it is not a sentient being.
If you think that the IC has some kind of consciousness, then how about a computer, that can also do readings for you.

 

[laylab]

I agree with Willowfox about the nature of Yi,..it is the human being who imposes judgement, not the Yi.

But on the otherhand I disagree about consciousness, For me the Yi IS the consciencness of the universe and we are all part of it.

But Trojan, who says that consciousness makes judgements?
With what do we form judgement?

 

[bruce_g]

Judgment has more than one meaning, and I think it's easy to mistake ones meaning for another.

Of course the Yi makes judgments about situations. Each answer is, in effect, a judgment.

judgment:

The legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision

An opinion formed by judging something

The cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions

The mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations

The capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions

(law) the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it

The act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event

The laws the Yi establishes are, as I see it, laws of nature. We interpret those laws in ways which accord with our own nature. If someone is warm and compassionate, Yi will be heard and interpreted to be warm and compassionate. If a person is cold and calculating, Yi will appear also to that person as being cold and calculating. Isn't that also true with how people interpret God?

 

[Tohpol]

I see the IC as a tool for divination, I see it is as being 100% neutral, and I don't see it as being the word of god. I see that it will always answer any question put to it, it never matters what the intention of the querant may be, the IC has no feelings of right or wrong, it is not a sentient being.
If you think that the IC has some kind of consciousness, then how about a computer, that can also do readings for you.

I think the IC is a process which means it can be replicated in other forms as long as the "code" is there. This doesn't preclude a higher consciousness or a conscious intent behind it however. Maybe things are not so black and white. Though sometimes it would be great if they were...

Topal

 

[mudpie]

Why? I'm not saying that you shouldn't I'm just wondering why you would care.

Btw, I have compassion for him as well, even though I think he brought a lot of it on himself. The answers just confirmed what I already suspected.

Because he sounds like he is hurting. but i feel compassion for most every human being. sometimes the ride on this spaceship is bumpy and hurtfful.

 

[Trojina]

Dear Thread Starter ,
Getting into everyone else's business is just a crux we use to keep us out of our own.

The Universe has it's own business, you have yours and the rest of us have our own.
Anytime I assume to have the right to be in someone else's business (as recently experienced) I end up neglecting my own and forgetting myself.

Get back to you, forget whether this guy is married or not.

What is this? I Ching Water Cooler Chat Day? LOL

Ooh I think you hit the nail on the head there Layla - assuming you meant 'crutch' rather than 'crux' - Actually i suspect quite alot of what we do is to avoid our own business - after all what am i doing here now - i should be sorting my own life out not worrying about how others use the Yi

Re judgement and consciousness, well what Bruce said really - each answer from the Yi is a judgement -and there is of course The Judgement for each hexagram. Judgement is a word that lately has very negative connotations and gets peoples backs up but it is really just discernment, wise decision making, care in differentiation about what is valuable in a situation and what is not. So many hexagrams stress the importance of this - the Image in 64 and 60 for example

 

[Trojina]

I see the IC as a tool for divination, I see it is as being 100% neutral, and I don't see it as being the word of god. I see that it will always answer any question put to it, it never matters what the intention of the querant may be, the IC has no feelings of right or wrong, it is not a sentient being.
If you think that the IC has some kind of consciousness, then how about a computer, that can also do readings for you.

So where do you think the answers come from ? I'm assuming you think they come purely from the divination process itself as Topal mentioned ?


I can see that but I find it near impossible to imagine there is no element of consciousness behind that at all. My reason for that is I find the Yi always directs me towards the higher motive or goal in any situation - thats my perception - even when I don't want it to.

Anyway thanks for answering my question, I find it really interesting how differently people think of who/what they talk to when they consult the Yi.

I should add that no it is not for me to decide what kind of question the Yi will or will not answer - thats between the Yi and the querant, but the points I made above come from the fact that given my experience and what I think the Yi is- I always think motive is a factor to consider in how the Yi might answer as many many times I've known on a gut level that the Yi is not engaging with my question and I usually understand why.

 

[laylab]

Yeah, Trojan, I meant "crutch" not crux...bad typing habits I have!

I agree with you about judging and the negativity people have attached to it. We need to make judgements and yet NOT make them. Somehow I can not articulate what I mean at the moment.

 

[Trojina]

Yeah, Trojan, I meant "crutch" not crux...bad typing habits I have!

I agree with you about judging and the negativity people have attached to it. We need to make judgements and yet NOT make them. Somehow I can not articulate what I mean at the moment.

I think 'judgement' is a word we have difficulty with in society right now because we are very aware of not wanting to make negative judgements about people, not wanting stereotype them etc etc - yet still of course we can't deny the need for our faculties of discernment - who to trust and who not always will involve a kind of judgement even if based on intuition alone

 

[laylab]

yeah....what Trojan said

 

[Trojina]

But what really appalls me are the expectations people bring here when they post a question. They complain of boring or preaching answers but why do they post in the first place? Is there an advertisement somewhere that brings you to this site for 'free personal readings'? Do they come with a satisfaction guaranteed label? How can anybody complain!?

.

Well I noticed when googling Clarity it says "Authentic free readings " maybe these people mistakenly believe we are the free readers ? I didn't know there were any authentic free readings here, somewhere else on the forum ? perhaps Hilary is giving them

Hmm anyway yes it does look like there is an advertisement leading you to this site for 'free readings' lol.