what should I do about this pregnancy?

[tiffwhi]

Hello everyone I have a dilemma I just found out im pregnant. My boyfriend wants a child very much but we both know its not the right time I am a little confused as to how he feel because he is confused as to what to do regarding the question I got hex 41.1.2 <23 please I would really appreciate it if someone could interpret the hex for me many thanks.

 

[RindaR]

What do you want to do?

I'm thinking that for such a big decision there are many other things to consider besides a reading from the Yi which is not clear to you.

 

[Liselle]

I don't know what the reading means, either --- maybe a better way to put that is that it's very difficult to be so sure about a reading to be comfortable saying, "this is what it means" about such an important matter. I've been wrong about readings way too often.

But I'm leaning towards thinking this reading has an good general tone. It doesn't seem to be yelling at you; it doesn't seem to be saying that everything is doom and gloom. It doesn't have omen words like "good fortune," but it also doesn't have omen words like "pitfall."

 

[RindaR]

I have not found Yi to be good at answering "should" questions. It seems that for me, I must choose my own path. Yi will then give me insight about whether or not a given choice will meet the needs of my path. Once this decision is in the past, how do you want to be, what do you want to be doing, how do you want to feel? Even deciding not to choose is a choice, and may or may not be consistent with your de.

One thing seems sure, things will change - you can't keep them the same after going through this time whatever path you follow.

Perhaps Yi will give a clearer response if you ask in separate questions: "How will it be if I..." and lay out the presenting alternatives. It's ok to ask more than one question when you are clarifying results of taking different paths. Each potential choice is then a unique question. When your questions are clearer (and the goals you want to reach) the answer will also be clearer.

 

[Liselle]

Perhaps Yi will give a clearer response if you ask in separate questions: "How will it be if I..." and lay out the presenting alternatives. It's ok to ask more than one question when you are clarifying results of taking different paths.

I think that's good advice! Thank you for thinking of that, Rinda.

Do you think maybe that's even what Yi was suggesting? 23 as the relating hexagram could mean "split this into separate parts," and one of the "Key Questions" that Hilary presents in her book for hexagram 41 is "Could this be simpler?" A more specific question is a simpler question, probably...?

When I looked at the 41.1.2 > 23 reading, I did have the general impression that it was a sincerely helpful response from Yi, but I couldn't figure out how to apply it - this might make sense.

 

[Trojina]

This thread follows hot on the heels of this one where you wonder if you should act detached

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?19448-Acting-emotionally-detached-hex-8

what should I do about this pregnancy?
Hello everyone I have a dilemma I just found out im pregnant. My boyfriend wants a child very much but we both know its not the right time I am a little confused as to how he feel because he is confused as to what to do regarding the question I got hex 41.1.2 <23 please I would really appreciate it if someone could interpret the hex for me many thanks.

What you are really asking is should you have an abortion or not. I couldn't comment. I think you should go and see a counsellor. To be frank I don't feel this is a question you can really expect a group of people on a forum to decide for you..like "shall I let this foetus live ?". That isn't a question I would wish to engage with anyway. It is between you and the father. I can't imagine what answer from Yi would be 'have an abortion' .....I mean all judgment aside, is the potential beginning of a new life something Yi would/could say 'no this is a bad idea' ? I wouldn't be willing to interpret either way


But getting back to you and the father...and all this alleged 'confusion'. I just think neither of you can afford the luxury of 'confusion' at this point. Whatever you decide it's time for both of you to drop the whole 'I'm confused' camouflage and know you are both adults with clear decisions to make. That hex 8 in the last thread really had no time or place for confusion. I mean it was kind of crying out 'wake up and choose and decide what you want ' This confusion is not useful..and is a term that I think often disguises what is really going on.


I think your priority now is to get unconfused as soon as possible.....I somehow don't think it's that hard, just don't buy into it. So sounds like you need to talk to a pregnancy/abortion counsellor to assist you in your choice

Going back to what you said

Hello everyone I have a dilemma I just found out im pregnant. My boyfriend wants a child very much but we both know its not the right time I am a little confused as to how he feel because he is confused as to what to do regarding the question I got hex 41.1.2 <23 please I would really appreciate it if someone could interpret the hex for me many thanks.

Well does he know he won't always get the choice of a baby ? They don't always come to order and I don't actually know anyone who ever felt it was the 'right time'. What exactly does the 'right time' look like. He might have a vision of an imaginary future where the arrival of a child fits perfectly....but that doesn't exist. Babies come when they come.

A hundred years ago neither of you would be able to afford confusion. That's why I say it's a modern luxury.


41.2 says to me you could both get clearer if you dropped emotional baggage around this and all the kerfuffle about 'confusion'. There isn't time to drift around being confused....that is what you last answer said.

First you see a counsellor or maybe talk to a parent or friend ...you decide what you want and then if he can manage to make his mind up you can take his view into account....but overall the choice lies with you as it's your body. There are people trained specifically to help you know what you want to do . Please make use of them.


I feel he needs to drop the confusion and act like a man. I think you need to stop imagining all this confusion is a real or useful way forward, tell him exactly what you want and then give him a clear choice.

It is worrying that you are pregnant yet in the other thread asking if you should act detached. No....you need to get to grips with things not play games.

I do not mean to be insulting so sorry if it sounds that way but you sound very young and unaware....which is why I hope you will go and get some proper one to one advice and support rather than asking the I Ching if you should abort. I know I could never interpret that question for anyone as I don't presume to know if a foetus should grow or die. That is you and the father's choice and yours alone.

 

[pocossin]

What should I do about this pregnancy?
41.1.2 < 23

Although no hexagram is negative, 41 and 23 are typically associated with loss, and you will experience loss and gain no matter which option you choose. To sort the matter out, your options are termination or carry to term. If you carry to term, then parenthood or adoption. And if the baby is put up for adoption, in family or out of family. You or your boyfriend may have relatives who would want this baby if you carry to term. Some people want babies so badly that they steal them. I know of a mother who adopted her young daughter's child and of an aunt who adopted her nephew's children. Parenthood is a demanding and life-changing course, but since your boyfriend wants a child, I think this is your best option. You are lucky to have a boyfriend who wants children. I think that if you choose parenthood you will find that your have resources that are not now apparent.

 

[Trojina]

ps unlike others I do not recommend asking further questions of Yi about this pregnancy. You don't understand the answers and others here can't tell you whether to abort or not, whatever your answer is, so why ask ? Just go to a clinic and get some counselling.

 

[Liselle]

Trojina -

(1) Tiffwhi asked the "detachment" question several days before asking this one - it's possible she didn't know she was pregnant when she posted the first reading,

(2) I think Yi is perfectly capable of addressing a pregancy question,

(3) as I said, my impression of the general tone of 41.1.2 > 23 was that Yi was genuinely trying to be helpful, rather than yelling at her for asking,

(4) so, I don't think WE should be yelling at her for asking,

(5) I completely agree that none of us should be saying anything like "The Yi tells you to abort/not abort/give the child up for adoption/etc.",

(6) we might still be able to say something constructive about the reading(s), and if we can't, or don't feel comfortable saying anything at all, we could just explain that,

(7) I think Rinda's suggestion to ask more specific questions might be a good one - if Tiffwhi is able to work her way through them and if they help her think through her various options. If not, then she's probably no worse off than she is already? (except see item 9...)

(8) of course it's a good idea for Tiffwhi to get real-life, professional counselling about this. Doesn't mean she can't still get perspectives from the I Ching. Plus, Yi could advise her on how to work with the counsellor, possibly help her to find a good counsellor (rather than a bad one), and so forth.

(9) having said all that - Tiffwhi, one way consulting the Yi could actually make things worse is if you get obsessive about it, or if you get panicky when you don't understand the answers. IF THAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING on this issue, then please immediately stop.

 

[pocossin]

ps unlike others I do not recommend asking further questions of Yi about this pregnancy.

I agree.

You don't understand the answers and others here can't tell you whether to abort or not, whatever your answer is, so why ask ?

Haven't you noticed? I do not hesitate to give a definite answer and do not think that others should either. Stand up and put it on the line.

Just go to a clinic and get some counselling.

Unfortunately, in this highly politicized matter the advice she gets will depends on which clinic she goes to. Some (USA) will almost automatically recommend abortion. Others will not.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortne...-clients-after-installing-ultrasound-n1916665

I am a conservative and read conservative sites, but my recommendation is based both on the casting and my experience of life. I had an aunt whose first child was aborted about 80 years ago. She regretted it for the rest of her life.

 

[Trojina]

(This post was to Lisa to clarify....not Tom who cross posted) I anticipated that you would object. I am not yelling at her. You hear me yelling at her. That is your problem. You don't like my answer. I don't like your answer. We don't have to justify our answers to one another fortunately. If you don't like my answer it's up to you but don't attack me for it or tell me what I should or shouldn't say to her ! I will write what I feel ...Geez !

As you know I am not into long drawn out and detailed debates. I gave the querant my POV. As far as I am concerned it doesn't need to meet your approval.

(2) I think Yi is perfectly capable of addressing a pregancy question,

Jeezus.....I haven't even said it can't ....I have said I cannot imagine how we as readers could ever come to the conclusion from an answer that's someone should abort a child. I do have a right to say I cannot imagine that don't I ...without having to justify it to you. As no one can possibly advise her to abort what is the point of her asking more questions of Yi about her choice and posting them here !


Anyway let me say what I want to say and please don't tell me how to answer other people ! You seem to be telling me what 'we' should say. There is no 'we'....don't presume you can decide what I can say. You can say what you want . If you object to what I say that much please use the report button !

I said I didn't agree she needed to think of more questions to ask and post here. I don't agree with you. However do feel free to make suggestions to her as you see fit.....and please leave me to make mine.

 

[Trojina]

Haven't you noticed? I do not hesitate to give a definite answer and do not think that others should either. Stand up and put it on the line

Well we are speaking of something very personal that none of us have a right to advise on IMO. I have no idea about the pregnancy it is way beyond my knowledge. Therefore in this case 'standing up and putting it on the line' is not something anyone here is qualified to do. You yourself haven't put it 'on the line', you have given quite an open answer that leaves her options open to her...which is of course the only ethical way there is basically to respond.

I don't know why you are writing the post to me I've no wish to discuss it with you and wasn't aiming any previous comments at you in particular. I was writing to the querant.

 

[pocossin]

Well we are speaking of something very personal that none of us have a right to advise on IMO. I have no idea about the pregnancy it is way beyond my knowledge.

Although I am not of the gender to become pregnant, as a farm person I have had the experience of hundreds of pregnancies, both in my kin, in large and small animals, and in hundreds of thousands of plants. Pregnancy and its consequences are not beyond my knowledge. Nature is permeated by reproduction, and I hope tiffwhi doesn't consider it to be a strange event.

 

[Liselle]

Nature is permeated by reproduction, and I hope tiffwhi doesn't consider it to be a strange event.

Pregnancy isn't a strange event in general, but it might be a strange event to an individual who's never been pregnant before.

 

[Liselle]

Trojina, please notice that I wholeheartedly agreed with you on the important points that none of us should be conclusively interpreting readings on this matter, and that some real-life help is necessary. We've all seen way too many examples of readings which ended up not to mean what we initially thought they meant, and on a subject like this, there is no leeway for hindsight to make things clear.

Does that mean that there is nothing constructive to say to Tiffwhi about her reading(s)? You're basically telling Tiffwhi to "get unconfused," as if poof! it's that easy just because you say it ought to be.

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, please notice that I wholeheartedly agreed with you on the important points that none of us should be conclusively interpreting readings on this matter, and that some real-life help is necessary. We've all seen way too many examples of readings which ended up not to mean what we initially thought they meant, and on a subject like this, there is no leeway for hindsight to make things clear.

Does that mean that there is nothing constructive to say to Tiffwhi about her reading(s)? You're basically telling Tiffwhi to "get unconfused," as if poof! it's that easy just because you say it ought to be.

Lisa yes that is my personal opinion. I don't think these two bumbling around telling one another they are confused is the way to go. Hexagram 8 said that about the relationship. As soon as there is a potential child involved everyone needs to grow up....because they have to. As you said this is too big a matter to simply go by an Yi reading on...especially when she doesn't understand the reading and has to ask others.

I have already said a little about the reading. That things need not be so confusing....41 is not an answer to get complicated about and it need not be so. Yes I am telling her to get unconfused. Hex 8 says get unconfused...so could 41, and so do I after reading both threads.

I half knew when I posted you would object but I did feel I needed to say what I said. I had a PM from someone else saying they liked my answer. Whether you like my answer or don't like it I don't really have to explain myself so comprehensively ...do I ?


No offence BTW....but Lisa I am entitled to my view and I base my view on both threads.


But my having this view doesn't mean I dismiss your own views on the reading here though. Perhaps it sounded as if I were dismissing all you said. You have a point in that perhaps she could ask about surrounding issues such as which counsellor and so on.

 

[RindaR]

I think we all have strong feelings about this situation, and we are each entitled to them. Simply because it is not ours no one of us can really influence it directly, nor should we attempt that although the temptation is strong...

At best, IMO, we can perhaps help tiffwhi find her own way through this. None of us really know all the variables including her inner and outer resources.

 

[Liselle]

41 is not an answer to get complicated about and it need not be so. Yes I am telling her to get unconfused. Hex 8 says get unconfused...so could 41, and so do I after reading both threads.

I don't really have to explain myself so comprehensively ...do I ?

Well...yes? Even this much of an explanation helps. Now I see, a little bit, anyway, where you're getting this from. I had gotten far enough to notice that one of Hilary's book questions was, "Could this be simpler?" but I didn't understand how to apply that to this reading.

I mean, you went to great effort to write a lengthy post to Tiffwhi on this thread, but there was only one sentence which mentioned the actual reading. Now I see that you had it in your head, but...we're not mind readers . It can help if you spell out what you're doing.

 

[rosada]

The I Ching was originally used to answer such questions as "Should we go to war?" so I think "What should I do about this pregnancy?" is exactly the sort of question the I Ching was designed for. It's questions like "Should I buy a hat?" that drive me crazy.
Furthermore, whether or not we can decipher an answer or whether the answer is reliable isn't the most important thing. Just formulating a question and putting it out there can be a big help in calming the mind and getting clarity. I often don't even bother to look up a hexagram because during the ritual of consulting the IC the answer comes to me before I even finish the toss.
And of course even when we get the I Ching's "opinion" we won't necessarily follow the advice, it's just nice to have another 'mind' to bounce ideas off of. Indeed, I have gotten answers from the I Ching where the advice was so clearly "wrong" it was as if the Universe was being intentionally off just to get me up and going. Like one time I got a hair cut and thought it was pretty cute. I consulted the I Ching and asked for its opinion on my new look. Instead of getting some sort of glowing compliment received the line about stuffing one's head in a caugue (can't think of the word, it's like a box) - with that I stopped obsessing about my 'do and got back to work. So even if the I Ching were to tell you, "Throw yourself in the river!" it maybe because that's the best way to get you say, "No way!"

Anyway, we have been asked to give an opinion about the meaning of 41.2 >23 as a response to the question "What should I do about this pregnancy?" with the background info that she is confused about the boyfriend's feelings.

41.1 Be mindful of your connections and commitments, and how giving in one place means taking away from somewhere else. How much you give is not important - what matters is how you give, and whether your purpose is aligned with the purpose of those you are giving to.
- Hilary's I Ching Walking Your Path.

I see this as saying the first thing you should do is consider what you have to give a child. I could see this as also saying it would be okay if you decided to give the child up for adoption - but not because you felt coerced, and also that you should be considering it you can raise the child alone if you choose to keep it as your boyfriend's purpose mightn't be aligned with your own.

41.2 Constancy bears fruit.
I see this line as saying that if you decide to go forward with the pregnancy you will have a healthy child and to not try to have everything figured out in advance. One day at a time.

23. Stripping away.
Fruitless to have a direction to go.

I see this as saying everything is changing. It may not be possible for you to know right now whether you will keep the child or give it up for adoption - or even terminate the pregnancy.

In sum, I think first of all the I Ching doesn't so much tell us what to do as it allows us to step outside the situation and look at ourselves with a bit of perspective. It gives us a snapshot of how things are at the time we ask the question. In your case I think rinda nailed it at the beginning when she said without even looking at the lines that you should not allow yourself to be confused by your boyfriends mixed signals but to focus on asking yourself what YOU want to do. I think the I Ching is saying in 41.1 and 2 that you should approach this situation with the attitude that you are at the helm here. Can you raise a child on your own? Do you have it to give? Even if your partner were to sign on, it might be to support you so what do you want? Then 41.2 seems to discuss options of bearing the child but not necessarily deciding just yet if you will keep it or give it up for adoption. 23. Splitting Apart makes me think "adoption" but I don't see the I Ching as advising or predicting that, rather it I think it's just putting that idea out there for you to consider more consciously. Of course, it could also mean miscarriage or abortion or even splitting up with your partner, but with 41.2 in the back ground saying "Constancy bears fruit" I'm more inclined to think it simply means the pregnancy brings change.

Best of luck with your upcoming decisions.
Rosada

 

[cjgait]

I have a personal opinion on this, which I will keep out of this, since I do not know you as a person or the circumstances.

From a technical standpoint as someone else pointed out, questions about childbirth are as old as the Yi, in fact older (the ancient oracle bone divination that came before the Yi in the Shang dynasty was frequently used to ask about pregnancies, though not abortion to my knowledge).

Using the method prevalent in ancient times to bring the text received in divination down to one text you read the judgement of 41 for this question.

Using the Han Dynasty Garden of Changes (commonly known as the Forest of Changes) you get this text for 41 - 23:

Poverty sits at the gate
Each day I break my own pots.
The bottles and jars all are smashed,
Till finally the family has nothing left.

Interpreting is always a very personal thing. It also involves the cultural framework of both the time of the questioner, modern America, and the time of the text, in this case Han China. In that time aborting a child would be considered 'smashing your own pots'. Children, particularly sons, were considered the most valuable assets of a family. The other side of the coin, a totally different interpretation of the same text, is that the child would be financially ruinous here and now. As I said, I cannot take on interpreting for you since I do not know you or your circumstances, but I wanted to give you another resource to consider in your quandary.

Regards,
Chris Gait

 

[tiffwhi]

Hello I want to thank everyone for their opinions and advice. I'm not really that good at communicating my situations, so it may sound a little off. I want to say that I have known my boyfriend for 6 yrs we started as an friends with benefits then we progressed into a committed relationship (many times I used to get the hex small taming in regards to this) so I guess you can say it's been about 2yrs all together that we have been exclusive. we both have been in a divorce. I recently divorced my husband after being separated for 4 yrs he has been divorced for 4yrs. I have 3 children and my situation is not what I want it to be right now (I have been working on what was spoiled )but I'm getting close to that point.

my boyfriend want a family, he wants a child badly and I want more children but my mother is supporting me as of now because I decided that it is not time for me to work but deal with my children and their schooling and take some form of action since they were failing while I was working and their father is not helping ( people in the home) . for me to be pregnant right now,to have a baby, is going to hold me back from the change that needs to take place(radical change). my boyfriend upon hearing the news was happy but upon seeing my reaction fell into a state of confusion because he does not want to abort, he wants this child but my logic makes more and more sense. we don't even live together, he works as a electrician for a company that severely underpays him where it's near minimum wage. I tell him we cannot keep this baby for the fact that he will always be working overtime just to support this child and pay bills, and most likely resent me for it which happens in most cases. I said in 2yrs we can have one but now I'm in school I'm trying to keep healthy so much is happening that for sure this child is going to be a financial drain and we will probably be so stressed to the point where we might hate each other.

I know that if I get this abortion he will not take it well since this would be his sec child lost his ex wife had an abortion when they were married . I don't want to bring a child in this world where both parents are stressed and occupied with th comings and goings of life, nor do I want to have this child based on his feelings on wanting a child so bad. I asked the yi because maybe there is a way around this, maybe we can get a bigger apartment, then I can start working, my daughter is in school but old enough to work, we might have to rely on government help for awhile but ok all I wanted was just a bit of enlightenment. Sorry for the long long post

 

[Liselle]

Hi Tiffwhi,

I for one was assuming this was your first pregnancy, and obviously it's far from that. You never said it was your first - here lies the danger of assuming!

Thank you for the additional information. It doesn't really help me figure out the reading, but I can't figure out a lot of readings so that is not surprising . Hopefully some of the other responses will help .

 

[rosada]

Thanks for giving us the background story Tiffwhi - the hexagrams now seem to make more sense to me. I'm posting my revised interpretation but please know I am not saying my interpretation is "right" or that you should follow the advice:

What should I do about the pregnancy?
41. Decrease changing to 23. Splitting apart.
After reading the additional information in your post I realize you consulted the IC because you had decided to abort but became uncertain of your decision because of your boyfriend's reaction and his desire to have a child. Without telling you what you "should" do, I think the I Ching is discussing what importance you should give to your bf's desire.

41.1
Going quickly when ones tasks are finished is without blame.
But one must reflect on how much one may decrease others.
Wilhelm

This reads to me that the I Ching is saying your impulse to bear this child for your boyfriend who would so like to have a child is without blame. However, you must ask yourself honestly if you have the resources to give him this gift. Have you indeed completed the mothering "tasks" you already have? Furthermore your boyfriend should consider if asking you to bear this child is appropriate on his part - is he asking more of you than he should? Wilhelm comments that great delicacy of feeling is needed here.

41.2
Perseverance furthers.
To undertake something brings misfortune.
Without decreasing oneself, one is able to bring increase to others.

I see "Perseverance furthers" as meaning you persevering in your awareness of the precariousness of your current situation - raising three children and living with mom - and that you must continue to make decisions that do not jeopardize it.
To undertake bearing a child against your own best instincts will not go well.
Making the best decision for yourself will ultimately be best for your boyfriend too.

The hexagram then changes to 23. Splitting Apart:

It does not further one to go anywhere.

It seems to me the I Ching is mainly addressing your concern that your boyfriend would like a child and I think it's saying that is not the deciding factor here, like the hex.23 image of a mountain rising up out of the earth and toppling because it does not have a broad enough base, his desire alone is not what you should "base" your decision on. In fact, you could even say the IC is telling you it does not further you to go on with the pregnancy.

Okay - as I said in the beginning I am only saying what I see in the hexagrams. I'm not saying the I C is saying this is what you should do. I think the IC gives us a snapshot of how we are feeling at the moment we asked the question. The hexagrams allow you to then step back and look at your situation more objectively and then decide anew what path to take.

Rosada

 

[Liselle]

It's interesting...I don't understand CJGait's methods at all, but his post (#20 from above) does seem to echo some of what Rosada is saying.

I think Rosada has given a lot of food for thought, and for having serious discussions with your boyfriend. By chance does he know about the I Ching? (Not that that's necessary - the reading can still provide issues for discussion, just in your own words.)

This all sort of reminds me of what people say should be the goals of pre-marital counselling, which isn't to tell people whether they should or should not get married, but to just require them to think things through, set out their views on various matters, discuss how to meld any areas of difference, do some planning (before any committment actually happens), and make clear-headed, informed decisions.

 

[Tohpol]

Moderators' reminder:

Since this is a highly charged topic full of ethical considerations we'd just like to remind Tiffwhi and other folks who may post here on heavy-weight subjects that there is an automatic disclaimer on advice given as per Clarity guidelines. Interpretation of I Ching readings can naturally incorporate the experiences and evaluations of the postee which by their very nature are subjective.

Querents must always use due diligence and discrimination as they take aboard all the contributions here and remain open to informed advice outside of this forum, most especially when it involves pregnancy which has potentially far-reaching effects, whatever the decision taken.