What's The Harm?

[Zimbali]

http://whatstheharm.net/fengshui.html

...is an interesting website that deals with delusional beliefs. Matters where people's critical thinking has been subject to a "response bias".

In regard to study of yijing, especially those dealing with divination, are you doing that for the purposes of seeking alternative perspectives of thought, or are you a "believer" that the divination process gives a definitive explanation, as opposed to say Barnum Statements?

For me at the novice stage I would say that yijing presents an opportunity for analysis for an alternative perspective, and provides a strong organisational schematic for self assessment and life ordering with a lot of commonsense.

I'd like to state clearly that i am in no way trying to knock the yijing, or criticize other peoples approaches or beliefs. Rather to understand evidence of the yijing working in action, and the related evidence.

From my perspective I would say the schematic has been excellent for illuminating and categorizing situations, their cause and effect, and better understanding the spectrum of alternative, or best course of action. I think the schematic has also, as i have articulated found its way into to literature and art by way of symbolism. [Most certainly in China, in any case].

What would you say that your view is?

For me I think its a strong organisational facilitator, that if followed correctly, will generally highlight options towards what is a positive outcome or a negative outcome.

 

[sooo]

For me it's a reality seeking device, a cosmic psychologist, a book of uncommon common sense.

 

[Zimbali]

For me it's a reality seeking device, a cosmic psychologist, a book of uncommon common sense.

It is certainly a well tuned schematic, and in most cases highly valid. Bradford summed up the matter well in how the work progressed thru the ages in his book. Thus it has clearly been well tuned practically speaking for thousands of years.

But is it cosmic? I'm not sure Confucius would agree....

 

[sooo]

I don't always agree with Confucius, or Brad, so that's okay.

Cosmic can be "one of those words", like "spiritual". I mean it in terms of literally being an active force of the cosmos. "Cosmos can be defined as a complex and orderly system, such as our Universe; the opposite of Chaos. It is the Universe regarded as an ordered system. The philosopher Pythagoras is regarded as the first person to apply the term cosmos (Greek κόσμος) to the order of the Universe." Wiki

 

[lindsay]

This idea of the power of "belief" and "believers" is a fairly modern concept. It is a riff on the modern (1600 to the present) obsession with certainty. We moderns - all of us - must be absolutely certain about things. It is crucial to know what is true and what is false. Many of us look to science and rationality for certainty, but others embrace a "belief system" or dogmatic set of ideas. It's the feeling of certainty that counts. People in traditional societies do not think this way.

Older writers talked about "faith" instead of "belief." Faith means trust. To say I have faith in the Yi (and I do) is to say I trust the Yi. I have faith in the Yi's ability to help me. I don't know how it works, but I trust the Yi to be helpful.

Why? Well, part of it is personal experience. But first let me tell you a true story. I have a good friend who, as a young man, "believed" in the I Ching. For a while he followed all the advice he found in the Yi without question. Things went pretty well until my friend - carefully following the Yi's advice as he interpreted it - made a disastrous mistake. He blamed the Yi for his failure, and he never used it again. In fact, he was quick to tell others about the evils of divination. Not only was he no longer a "believer," but he had also lost his "faith" (trust) in the Yi.

So I am cautious when I say I have faith in the Yi. I trust the Yi to give me something to consider that is not-me. Not-me in a radically different way. Most of us listen to the advice of our friends or family, but they are all tinged with me-ness. They are like-minded people, people who think like me, because I come from them or we have bonded over our familiarity with each other.

The Yi, however, comes out of a place that has nothing to do with me. It offers a message from ... I have no idea where. Of course, I have to interpret the message myself, make it mine. The important thing for me is that the message is outside my control or creation. Where else can you find such a thing? And it is value-free. I can disregard it without a qualm. Or twist it around to fit my situation. Most of the time I end up doing what I want anyway - but for a few minutes the Yi lets me consider an alternative that did not come out of my own head.

This "otherness" has less to do with the Yi's "well-tuned schematic" than with whatever it is inside us that makes read our fortune cookie at the local Chinese restaurant.

 

[Zimbali]

lindsay, I think what you say is great.

 

[sooo]

I've always liked what Lindsay has to say, not that I agree 100% of the time, or would word it quite the same way, but he is lucid and a nonconformist, thinks for himself, not a slave to a master or a dogma. Hidden behind that is more actual knowledge of Chinese history than he'd let on; much like Luis in that regard. I'm delighted he's made his way back to Clarity, though I expect his visit to be a visit rather than a home, as it is for some. For me it's a retirement home, so I'm allowed some decrepitude.

A number of years ago I wrote a piece, actually a recorded bit of conversation with another well respected Yijing authority, called "the challenge to believe". I put forth the idea that, at some point along the evolutionary path the idea of belief is torn asunder, unless one submits to some dogma or another, which may sometimes be ones own. The belief reaches a state of 63. The finish line has been reached. It is impossible to grow any further beyond the limits of that fixed belief. Therefore, I could not allow myself to become fixed in a belief system.

The paradox to that is that belief produces very real power, whether or not it is a dogma, belief generates a type of unseen force, just as electrons produce unseen force, with which man left the villages lit only by candles and stars by night and the sun by day, until we now are able to communicate across a world wide web, generate power to light cities, and launch vehicles and vision into the heavens. Faith too has this power, even to figuratively move mountains. The question then became, how can I believe in what I don't believe, in order to produce this power? I called this paradox "the challenge to believe". I do not necessarily believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning, nor that I will necessarily be alive tomorrow morning. Yet I believe that I can ask the Yijing a valid question and receive a valid answer. But is it the book itself that answers, or, does the Yi contain a record of possibilities that my invisible force of belief can access this dictionary of possibilities? I "believe" it is the latter.

Belief therefore, as I see it, is itself an invisible force, and is THE invisible force which can determine what response from this dictionary of categories within the Yijing, or any other oracle, will open to, and which will cause the coins, cards, sticks, tortoise shells, or entrails to demonstrate or foretell. Belief therefore is not a noun but a verb. It does not define anything, but like the electron it is the active force, which is best depicted in the Yi as The Creative. It is untiring, always available to tap into, but can not be defined as a thing other than as an invisible force, made visible only by a receptive vessel, which believes.

 

[Zimbali]

Sooo, I think I agree broadly speaking. I need to digest this a little. I think the process of reading and interpretation can certainly induce both left and right brain thinking, but perhaps that is also my imagination. Some time ago I seemed to experience something unusual, almost like an actual feeling of a massive cognition boost, that seemed like my thinking processes kicked into a whole new level...

However I very much think there is something, some kind of force....However, it seems difficult to actually prove, other that thru personal experience. I suppose proving it is not really necessary...

 

[sooo]

Sooo, I think I agree broadly speaking. I need to digest this a little. I think the process of reading and interpretation can certainly induce both left and right brain thinking, but perhaps that is also my imagination. Some time ago I seemed to experience something unusual, almost like an actual feeling of a massive cognition boost, that seemed like my thinking processes kicked into a whole new level...

However I very much think there is something, some kind of force....However, it seems difficult to actually prove, other that thru personal experience. I suppose proving it is not really necessary...

Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't referring to the cognition process, which can be defined as the interaction of intuition and reasoning, left/right brain cooperation. But that happens after receiving Yi's answer, as we discern the meaning and how to practically apply it to our question or situation. I was referring to before receiving Yi's answer, or the energy which points to that particular reference in the IC, or whichever oracle one is using.

 

[Zimbali]

Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't referring to the cognition process, which can be defined as the interaction of intuition and reasoning, left/right brain cooperation. But that happens after receiving Yi's answer, as we discern the meaning and how to practically apply it to our question or situation. I was referring to before receiving Yi's answer, or the energy which points to that particular reference in the IC, or whichever oracle one is using.

....which I agree conceptually, is all part of much bigger thing, however I don't yet properly understand this fully. I think there must be quite a skill to harnessing all of this, and applying such in manner consistent with the magnitude of this force, for it certainly is bigger than the individual, and requires particular care I imagine.....However the wider practical application is potentially phenomenal....

It's late here now, so I shall sleep on this, and revert tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[lindsay]

Thank you, Bruce, for being so kind. One of the great things about Clarity is there are so many points of view. Think how boring it would be if we saw everything the same way.

Zimbali certainly knows how to pose intriguing questions. Personally I'm a sucker for speculation, but I know it's not everybody's cup of tea. And this whole topic of "belief" can be very confusing.

In the end, I'm not sure it's as critical with the Yijing as with some other writings. After all, what is the Yi asking us to believe? You ask a question, the Yi gives an answer. The answer almost never fits the question exactly. When I ask my wife, "How should we deal with this or that family problem?", she rarely answers with "No game in the field" or "Relaxing your big toe. Friends approach whom you can trust." But the Yi constantly gives me answers like that. Am I to believe them or not? First, it might help to understand them.

So here's what I think: most of all, the Yi is asking us to believe in ourselves. To believe that we can understand and interpret its messages. To believe that, with a little help, we are capable of solving our own problems. The Yi may guide us, but really, we do all the hard work ourselves. We use it to dig below the surface, to get the broad view, to separate the sheep from the goats. But we decide what to think and what to do. And the Yi helps us do that.

I also think the Yi encourages certain values and modes of behavior, and most of them are very good. Conducive to survival, helpful for dealing with others, generous, even noble. But perhaps the best trait it fosters is simply the habit of asking questions. Surely this is a significant step toward being a compassionate person, a junzi. To ask a question is to express a doubt, to open up to the world outside ourselves, and to acknowledge our limitations.

 

[Trojina]

When I ask my wife, "How should we deal with this or that family problem?", she rarely answers with "No game in the field" or "Relaxing your big toe. Friends approach whom you can trust."

'Rarely'... ? You say your wife rarely gives such answers....? So that means sometimes, on the odd occasion, she does say such things as this ? what a treasure she must be..

 

[sooo]

'Rarely'... ? You say your wife rarely gives such answers....? So that means sometimes, on the odd occasion, she does say such things as this ? what a treasure she must be..

Indeed. My wife was more likely to say get off your ass than relax your big toe.

 

[anemos]

So I am cautious when I say I have faith in the Yi. I trust the Yi to give me something to consider that is not-me. Not-me in a radically different way. Most of us listen to the advice of our friends or family, but they are all tinged with me-ness. They are like-minded people, people who think like me, because I come from them or we have bonded over our familiarity with each other.
.

Belief therefore, as I see it, is itself an invisible force, and is THE invisible force which can determine what response from this dictionary of categories within the Yijing, or any other oracle, will open to, and which will cause the coins, cards, sticks, tortoise shells, or entrails to demonstrate or foretell. Belief therefore is not a noun but a verb. It does not define anything, but like the electron it is the active force, which is best depicted in the Yi as The Creative. It is untiring, always available to tap into, but can not be defined as a thing other than as an invisible force, made visible only by a receptive vessel, which believes.

I especially liked the "not-me" idea. "not-me" as the parts of me, due to the life, environment conditions , circumstances had not the opportunity to evolve, which then makes it a part of me, the un-manifest, hidden potential as sooo says ( or how i read it ) . If i mixing your ideas, sorry but both extracts created an image in my mind that of a spark and brought in mind hex 3-something new is born.

Me it might be the phenotype, while the not-me is the dormant parts of me the potential lies in genotype something like the seed of h3 . Figuratively or literally taken, in same ways, I can see that in hex 3 where those meetings of me and not-me take place, a small Big Bang

 

[Zimbali]

I suppose for me as a beginner 3 sums up the situation precisely....

What is more, there is certainly no requirement to submission to authority with or by the Yi. Nor the suggestion of any form of celestial monarchy.

Rather it is a well considered set of situational cause and effect probabilities.

Could the notion of the force be perhaps an heuristic, or more precisely an availability heuristic? In this case a well tuned one.

We could easily posit another, like this - To improve yourself follow the following rules:

1. Ensure you sleep properly 2. Eat properly [strict guide lines][drink only in very limited moderation]. 3 Work hard and effectively at what you are dealing with from 9am until 3pm, with a break for lunch between 4. Exercise strict care, and prudence with all transactions you have to deal with 5. Spend time with you loved ones and nurture your relationship.....and so on.... exercise properly for min. 30 minutes increasing heart rate to..

Now if you apply that to your life for the next 6 months, [taking weekends off] then you will find a significant improvement in your life.....

What the Yi has done has distilled such situations in a schematic, that really works well.

What is more there is something inside of us that likes the Yi. Maybe it resonates well with our subconscious as it beings order to chaos.

Our subconscious is probably, our biggest mainly untapped asset, our secret slave. And we can set it to work thru the process of concentration of the Yi. As with the Yi we are not making a quick decision its System 2 thinking, as opposed to System 1.

Further if we made a hexagram for attending a ball game. It might be something like this - Parking close to the field brings good fortune, but delays if seeking to leave early. Expect 2 opposing forces, but hostilities ie physical combat between the many is unlikely. Choosing to eat and drink with friends attending is enjoyable, make an effort with them and try to make their visit more enjoyable, good fortune. Don't get side tracked by negative people, nor engage with them, especially those you don't know. The referee is likely to apply an instrument to his mouth, and blow in it sharply, creating a music symbolic of a stoppage - this could create a turning point.....etc / or similar, its open ended.

What we have is situational possibilities. There is nothing mystical. By and large the Yi chapters are good general common sense, with a check list which is perfect for perceptions of outcomes.

But here's the thing.....in quantum mechanics they have proven that the observer can influence outcomes at the subatomic level.

So I suppose the $1m question is does some kind of force, or interaction with the observer influence what he results or outcomes are going to be?

I currently take a course through the University of Queensland, called The Science of Everyday Thinking, which is excellent. On that course they covered the paranormal....there are people who have tried real hard to prove issues and they simply can't.

Which takes us to the reality that this process is in us, certainly in part, if not totally and possibly finds a way into accessing our subconscious hard drive to get it to work. Alternatively there is something else.

University of Jerusalem, cite with Kabbalah at the higher levels, that it is down to both a "[God] force" and the subconscious.

However, I agree in principle that there is some kind of force. Worst case it is solely our subconscious. However being able to tap into our subconscious is a truly awesome thing, so the worst case is outstanding.

What makes you think it could be more than that? I suppose the quantum mechanics observer issue is a kind of plausible proof in itself....dark matter, etc...We don't understand everything fully.

What is truly amazing is that the structure and mechanism of the Yi, out performer massively any other [certainly ancient] writings [as well as most modern].

Are there any view on how to harness this "force"?










Then

 

[sooo]

We're all just exchanging ideas here, Zimbali. We're all beginners sprouting. Thank you for your provocative stimulus. :bows:

 

[Zimbali]

sooo, i actually edited, and added above. Thanks for the quick reply. I was still re-working, as my context was a a bit out...

I am very grateful to everyone for the advice and positive support. I really think there is something extraordinary with the Yi, and would really like to perfect it.

 

[sooo]

sooo, i actually edited, and added above. Thanks for the quick reply. I was still re-working, as my context was a a bit out...

That's cool. I'm in the middle of taking care of some business for awhile so I'll give some thought to harnessing this force before I respond again.

I do want to say that I do not believe the Yi has a Dharma, therefore there are no laws or rules because everything is based on context. What applies to A at this time may not apply to A tomorrow or concerning a different context. Proper sleep or rest may be mentioned in 17, but in an entirely different way in 1.3, for example, because the time and context are different. That's why it's the Book of Changes and not the Book of Laws. Moses did that twice, and oy, such a mess that made!

 

[sooo]

RE: proper eating. Does Yi give the same eating instructions in 5 as in 27?
RE: proper work ethic. To punch in at 9AM and out at 3:30PM, with lunch break between 4? Not sure I understand that time frame. A given family time, a given physical exercise time?

I have no idea where these ideas are coming from. They have nothing to do with the force I was referring to, nor with the IC I know and love.

Have you ever assisted someone with a reading who didn't believe the IC would provide a valid and useful answer, and who received a useful answer that they accepted and benefited from? I haven't. The reason? They didn't believe they would. That's the force I was referring to. "It is not I who seeks the young fool. The young fool seeks me." That's a prerequisite force. Without the receptive vessel, the Creative finds no grounding to transmit through or to.

 

[lindsay]

Yes, I agree with Sooooooo. Reading the Yi won't do much good if you believe it's all nonsense. (Although it might be worthwhile to remember the experience of St. Paul on the road to Damascus.)

But, but, but - there is a spectrum of belief. From lukewarm to red hot. Personally I have just as much trouble with the "red-hots" as the "ice-colds." For instance, people who turn each reading into a fantastic display of virtuosity by referencing 30 or 40 collateral hexagrams, each with their component dozens of trigrams and bigrams. And quadrigrams and pentagrams. By the time they are through, after several hours of manipulation, they have constructed not just an answer, but a treatise.

I love to read fiction, but I prefer novels to over-elaborate divinations.

 

[sooo]

people who turn each reading into a fantastic display of virtuosity by referencing 30 or 40 collateral hexagrams, each with their component dozens of trigrams and bigrams. And quadrigrams and pentagrams. By the time they are through, after several hours of manipulation, they have constructed not just an answer, but a treatise.

haha! Quite literally a Chinese puzzle; it especially reminds me of the old children's Chinese finger cuffs toy. And when Yijing Methodists fight over the myriad of contortions...

Interesting idea of an exception, Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. There, I think it was the intense shock Paul received, whether due to a sun stroke or a divine intervention, or possibly both. I think a stroke is quite likely in his case, since he was indeed emotionally in the red hot zone, or one might call it 59.6-29, and so his zeal in building a temple to the Lord may well have shocked him into the transformation, making him hyper-receptive, lightening conductive even. The oracle asked of him, why are you kicking against the goads? Chill, dude. Now go and see one of my Clarity interpreters and they will restore your clear vision.

 

[Zimbali]

I don't think the Yi is all nonsense at all. However a lot of what is written about St Paul possibly is......

The Yi isn't selling a celestial monarchy that requires our submission, nor trying to allege it is mandated by a celestial monarch to restrain our behaviour.

One could say very easily that St Paul was working on a process of intellectual colonisation with an agenda. Whereas the spreading of the Chinese classics to barbarian leaders in the Zhou dynasty was self confessed intellectual colonisation by China, with a view to an attempt at getting barbarians acting and reasoning in a civilised manner.

What is illuminating is what led up to the synod of Rome in 382CE and the promulgation of the NT, followed by the Dark Ages; versus what happen in China up to and including the Tang dynasty and what was achieved in China at that time. Which possibly was part of a restraining delusion in the west, that few people in the west are educated about, even to this day. Compared to the huge advances China made. For there is a stark contrast with what was happening at the core of the Tang dynasty compared to what restrained Christian's were achieving.

I certainly think there is something to believe in with the Yi. That is because the Yi asks us to believe in ourselves. To understands cause and effect, develop perceptions, examines interventions and works on optimising outcomes, whilst understanding pitfalls, within the context of an understandable schematic, in reality.

Thus, with the Yi well studied and integrated into the subconscious, with careful thought and consideration of events, combined with common sense and self control, the probability is one will make on the balance of averages more good calls than bad.