Beginners' room

hilary · Mar 21, 2003

... here it is. I will try to add links to it elsewhere and actually make it possible to find this room amidst the chaos that is the I Ching Community...

Meanwhile, what are the rules for this place?
Rule 1: There is no such thing as a stupid question.
Rule 2: see rule 1

Anything else?

candid · Mar 21, 2003

Applauds rule #1.

I'd say #2 is more a guideline. Those to whom words come easy, be careful not to overpower or dominate those who are less comfortable. It isn't differences in intelligence, just comfort and experience. One of the reasons there are so many bystanders is that they feel inadequate. We all know that's not true, but its how some feel.

Hey, what about this? Is it possible to temporarily "ban" the more active among us? It would alleviate the temptation to jump in and possibly overwhelm or unintentionally dominate a topic. Maybe just for the first week or so? Or, here's another thought. Each week a more experienced Chinger could mentor the group, assuming there is a group! (haha!) Other mentors could read but not post. Then another volunteers for a week, and so forth. I doubt there'd be a shortage of volunteers. The question is, would it draw the others out of the woodwork?

While we're on encouraging more participation, what about another chat session? Rather than assigning a particular objective to it, let it be just a social gathering. Granted, some aren't comfortable in that environment. But it may provide the more casual atmosphere to invite others to converse.

Interesting experiment, Hilary, and I admire you for stepping on out there with it.

hmm 45?

kiya · Mar 22, 2003

OK, I'm game! I welcome the idea of a beginners' corner with little red, yellow, blue, and green chairs in a circle and an alphabet lettering chart over the blackboard. The wooly smell of wet mittens drying on the radiator. Tattered copies of Dick and Jane. Inkwells and scratchy steel penpoints...

Nononono, wrong kindergarten, wrong century!!

Seriously, it's a great idea. But let's not ban anyone, especially those who are more experienced! A lot of us (erstwhile) lurkers appreciate their knowledge and insight. Leaving us kiddies to figure it out alone is a lot like..well, leaving a bunch of kindergartners alone in a room with a lot of fingerpaint.

By all means, let the teachers teach. They have much to share. Just resist the temptation to talk trig to toddlers!

Kiya

candid · Mar 22, 2003

I like it! One brave soul steps forward.

hilary · Mar 22, 2003

Hooray, someone has found their way here and posted! Thank you Kiya, you've made my day! Wasn't it Peter and Jane, though? Or is that just in the UK? ('Peter and Jane go up, up, up. They like to go up. Pat the dog likes to go up. It is fun.' Enough to put anyone off books for life.)

Candid, I'm with you on guideline 2, at least that we waffling types should calm down a bit and leave room for people to get a word in. Hm, how about guideline 3 - no mentioning hexagrams, especially not by number, without explaining what the heck you mean?

Hoping that the next post, or next but one anyway, will be by some brave person with a question...

kiya · Mar 22, 2003

Not brave enough to ask a question...yet. But thanks for the welcome!

Here in the US, Hilary, it was "Fun with Dick and Jane." Dick, Jane, their dog Spot, cat Puff, and I believe a baby sister. The dialog went something like, "Run, Spot, Run!" and "Look, Jane, Look!" Thrilling stuff, that!

Question(s) simmering in the back of the mind....

Kiya

pmccormack · Mar 22, 2003

The baby sister's name was Sally- she had yellow hair and was kind of chubby. I remember her well. Look, Puff, look Dick, see Sally run!
Pat

heylise · Mar 22, 2003

From the country of brother Wim, sister Jet, little sister Zus, dogs Kees and Does and cat Mies.
At the dentist there is still the reading-board, to keep them quiet when mom is being tortured.
Hello everyone
LiSe

candid · Mar 22, 2003

Yo lil bro, git that ball and throw! Jane cain't catch it so her doggie Spot gonna snatch it. Look at Spot book, he a bad dog!

~from my urban school, NJ~

elisabete · Mar 22, 2003

Hello!!La La La La..(Elisabete´s singing)
What a beautiful day today!
This is it a room for me!

I am dumb dumb dumb and I love it!

Candid loved the idea "Each week a more experienced Chinger could mentor the group, assuming there is a group!?. After Kiya´s post I start to believe there is really a group...maybe a big one! But we can?t survive without teachers...please don´t leave us here by ourselves....
Nice meeting you Kiya..
Sorry but I think in Portugal there was no Peter and Jane. I don?t remember...Do you Pedro?

kiya · Mar 22, 2003

Nice meeting you, too Elisabete! And everyone else in this cheerful kindergarten classroom. Who would have thought Dick and Jane and Peter and Jane and Wim and Jet (and their cousins everywhere) could ring the school bell so powerfully.

Elisabete, you are not dumb! Your enthusiasm and openness and willingness to raise your hand to ask questions will surely put you at the the head of this class. Your fellow students will learn from you, I know. I hope we'll be great friends here!

I'm so happy the wise teachers have appeared to help us learn the I Ching alphabet. Chien, kun, chun...

Kiya

hitchhiker · Apr 4, 2003

Hi, just wanted to say I'm glad for this room.

I Ching kindy-garten! Am going to get my foam letters and building blocks!

drbob · Apr 8, 2003

Hello. I recently completed Hilary's tuition course. I found it very very helpful--eye opening. About a month or so ago I sugested a beginner's meeting to help this stumbling but earnest student of the I Ching. I felt intimidated by the rather glib intercourse of the more learned students of the Oracle. The side talk also threw me for a loop. I'm just a beginner and I'm just getting use to the shorthand often used for transforming hexagrams. So I have a lot lot to learn. I think a mentor should serve for at least a month so we newbies get acquainted somewhat at more depth to his/her approach to the Oracle. They in turn will get to know us better, facillitating a more helpful critique.
Dr Bob

elisabete · Apr 8, 2003

Hi Bob

I didn?t do the tuition course yet but I am planning to do so?
As soon as I have some free time because I should be working but instead I am reading Clarity and LiSe web site [

]

Well I have a question ?. Usually I don?t remember my dreams or very seldom but this morning I did and the dream was about a job task I have to do (which is true) and my boss was telling me the due date 17 of May. I remember the number 17 very clearly and then I assumed maybe May means number 5. So #17 and #5. But actually I do have a task I should do a.s.a.p and no motivation at all to do it. So probably the dream was just to remind me of my work and alerting me to do it?But I don?t know why I keep thinking about #17 and #5 ?.
Any help from my classmates and from our professors?

hilary · Apr 12, 2003

Erk, Elisabete, I thought these were supposed to be simple questions? Someone (Mick?) please help me out here...

Hm, well, if that 17 is a hexagram number, then it seems to run counter to the rest of the dream. It's certainly not 'you have a job to do, get on and do it, never mind how you feel.'

Hexagram 17 is Following, and it's about going with the current of what is natural to you. The flow of events or of intuitions is going in the right direction, moving towards fulfilment, and you need to honour it and follow it. The contrasting hexagram is 18, where the hidden currents and influences are making a nasty mess, and you need to track them down and bring them to light. Following is different: living moment to moment, 'no past causes', no big acts of control.

The Image of #17 is simple and expressive:

'At the centre of the lake is thunder. Following.
The noble one, at the onset of darkness, goes in to rest.'

Following the flow definitely also means resting at the right time.

So if the dream is connected with the hexagram, then the message under the surface is quite different from the one you first see. Here is your 'boss' - maybe the woman herself, or perhaps representing your inner 'boss' who tells you what you should be doing - saying both 'you must do this' - as you'd expect - and also 'Follow'. And maybe, if May is really there to represent Hexagram 5, also 'Wait' with trust for what you are looking for to come.

(At first I started thinking that perhaps 'May' was a pun on 'you may', giving permission. Then I remembered that you probably don't dream in English! Does the Portugese for May sound like any other words??)

I wonder whether this might not connect with other changes at work?

This is just a quick sketch, but I hope it's a useful start.

Frankelmick · Apr 12, 2003

Elisabete,

Thanks for posting your dream here. I'm a dream interpreter and I find it very useful to connect numbers in dreams to I Ching hexagrams.

You say, "Usually I don't remember my dreams or very seldom but this morning I did and the dream was about a job task I have to do (which is true) and my boss was telling me the due date 17 of May. I remember the number 17 very clearly and then I assumed maybe May means number 5. So #17 and #5."

Perhaps this dream contains a beautiful message about your relationship with the I Ching? Getting to know the I Ching could be what the "job task" in your dream represents.

Maybe 17/5 means hexagram 17 line 5?

Here's the line judgement from the Wilhelm/Baynes edition (ISBN 0-14-019207-7):
"Sincere in the good. Good fortune."

If I change Wilhelm's comment from "man" to "woman", it says this to you: "Every woman must have something she follows - something that serves her as a lodestar. She who follows with conviction the beautiful and the good may feel herself strengthened by this saying."

So I think that this dream is giving you great encouragement in your studies of the I Ching. The I Ching could well become the lodestar or magnetic centre of your spiritual life.

You are sincere in your search and the outcome is good fortune.

Hope some of this is useful.

Best wishes,

Mick
http://www.north-node.com/dreams

ann · Apr 15, 2003

Hilary this is brilliant!

But I'm sure it was Janet and John books. "Look, John, look. See the little dog."

Oh dear, am I really that old?

And I do hope that Candid and co will share their experience and wisdom here. I've often posted questions and been very grateful for their responses, but I never feel knowledgeable enough to hazard a reply to anyone else's questions!

Thank you and Good Luck!

Ann

ann · Apr 15, 2003

Now I have something I Ching related to say.

I met a friend yesterday, someone I talk to at least once a week, but seldom see because of distance. She has had a very hard life in the last 10 years. I was shocked at how she looked yesterday - although she's done fantastically well, yesterday she looked as though she had aged about 20 years and gained a LOT of weight. So I asked 'What is going on with her at the moment?' And before I cast, I knew what the answer would be. Sure enough 47, change line 4 to 29.

47 and 29 I understand - and they are spot on correct. But could someone throw a little light on line 4 of 47 please?

Thank you!

willow · Apr 16, 2003

There's a Grateful Dead song, "New Speedway Boogie", that has a line in it"

Now I don't know but I been told
it's hard to run with the weight of gold
Other hand I heard it said
it's just as hard with the weight of lead

That's sort of the spirit of line 4, I think - the image is of someone who ends up achieving what they set out to, despite perhaps going about it in the wrong way, despite the fact that there may have been easier ways to get there, if only the person had looked at the nature of the "burdens" and the "obstacles" and the "helpers" a little differently.

Here's the full lyrics to that song by the way - appropriate for our time. (and BTW, my hex for the *whole year* is #29!)

"New Speedway Boogie"
Robert Hunter & Jerry Garcia

Please don't dominate the rap Jack
if you got nothing new to say
If you please don't back up the track
This train got to run today

Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
Heard some say better run away
Others say you better stand still

Now I don't know but I been told
it's hard to run with the weight of gold
Other hand I heard it said
it's just as hard with the weight of lead

Who can deny? Who can deny?
it's not just a change in style
One step done and another begun
in I wonder how many miles?

Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
Things went down we don't understand
but I think in time we will

Now I don't know but I been told
in the heat of the sun a man died of cold
Do we keep on coming or stand and wait
with the sun so dark and the hour so late?

You can't overlook the lack Jack
of any other highway to ride
It's got no signs or dividing lines
and very few rules to guide

Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
I saw things getting out of hand
I guess they always will

I don't know but I been told
if the horse don't pull you got to carry the load
I don't know whose back's that strong
Maybe find out before too long

One way or another
One way or another
One way or another
this darkness got to give
One way or another
One way or another
One way or another
this darkness got to give

lenardthefast · Apr 16, 2003

Cool.......

Namaste,
Leonard

ann · Apr 16, 2003

You don't know how true that rings! She has carried the most enormous burden and largely because she just puts up with other people's behavour. Her back is strong - so she does the carrying, but now it's just all too much and when I saw her this week I could have cried. Thank you Willow - Leonard is right, that IS cool!

lenardthefast · Apr 16, 2003

Hi Hilary,

I've noticed that several of the novice members have indicated their desire for mentoring and FWIW, I am willing to contribute in that capacity should you be making a list(and checking it twice). *grins*

Namaste,
Leonard

elisabete · Apr 17, 2003

Dear Hilary and Mick thank you so much for your help ... both answers make a lot of sense to me... And now that my PC is back to normal I will visit Mick site often and learn more about the amazing world of dreams?
Thank you
God Bless

heylise · Apr 19, 2003

I think every good beginners room should have pictures on the walls. Showing far-away countries, crafts, landscapes, anything the teacher might use for clarifying his words.
When I was small, there were those pictures, and they were great to contemplate when lessons were very dull.
So I will put all the hexagrams on the walls.

The name of hexagram 1, is a picture of the sun at dawn. The circle with a line across, or sometimes a dot in the center, is the sun. The line just below it is the surface of the earth.
The long ?stem? with ?roots? and ?leaves? is a picture of hanging vegetation: jungle. Others say it is a picture of pennants. In all cultures pennants are used to show ?here he/we/the big celebration is?.
And finally, at the bottom at left, there is the sign for breath or vapor. The sun causes the dampness to dissolve in the air. But it can also scorch the earth.
The beginning of the day is a symbol for time, timing, the structure of the world.

Hexagram 2 has at left a clog of earth, or maybe it is an earth altar. This altar was very important in ancient China. It was a square mound in front of the palace, and every expedition started with a sacrifice to the earth god.
At right is a picture of a lightning bolt. It is nowadays written the same as a character meaning ?stretch-out?, so that can just as well be its meaning. Makes sense too. But I think it is a way to describe the energy living in the earth. It also means spirit or ghost.
The character depicts the energy in the earth, the power of nature, its vital force.

LiSe

cheiron · Apr 19, 2003

Dear Heylise
I was just ready for this beautiful immagery...

I am struggling over a difficult reading.

Thanks - it inspired me

--Kevin

heylise · Apr 20, 2003

These two hexagrams are about the first time the great earth-energy is touched by the forming power of heaven.

Hexagram 3 is a picture of the very first sprouting of a seed. A stem, two seed-leaves and a bud where the real plant starts to develop. This is the moment of the highest sprouting power, the energy has been awakened, but there is no individual form yet.

Hexagram 4, from top to bottom: plants, a cover, a pig. The meanings range from to cover, cloudy sky, ignorant, immature, dodder, to (pronounced a little different) deceive, to cheat, make a wild guess. Wang HongYuan says it is a picture of a hunter disguised in an animal skin. Another possibility: a pig, which can run around freely on a yard makes her own nest, a big pile of branches with leaves. In a hollow inside she has her piglets. An as yet undeveloped and invisible source of livelihood for the farmer.
Here too the energy has been awakened, but it is the mental potential. Huge too, but also without form yet. So this is not only the immature young child, but also the sage, who managed to discard all restricting forms and returned to the source.

LiSe

heylise · Apr 22, 2003

Hexagram 6. At left is a mouth with sound coming out of it: words. At right a character which means public or fair. But this character is also a title of nobility, Gong, a chief of a fief, the highest title below the emperor in ancient Zhou times. It was also used for the venerable ancestors. Maybe the Gong acted as judge when people could not agree, or his duty was to maintain fairness. Gong is composed of mouth (the little square), and two lines which mean ?divide? or eight (the number which can be divided several times). On some very old graphs the mouth is between the two lines: a verdict between two sides.

Hexagram 7. The left part is rolling, waving, but the meaning is not certain. The part at right is probably a banner, but it can also mean a skirt or turn around an axis. On oracle bones shi was written as the left part only, and as a complete character on its own it means testes or buttocks, with the extended meaning 'military'. Probably close to the meaning 'having guts'. Another possibility: a kind of ceremonial object (!).
A shi was not a complete army, but a division. Usually there were three shi, one at right, one in the middle, and one at left. The king often divined which one he should join. Shi means also: military camp, big hall, model, example, master, teacher, tutor, to imitate; a specialist (med., music, paint or divining), local administration chief, high functionary, superior in rank. Shi lu, the names of hexagrams 7 and 56 combined: a body of 2500 troops.
A specialist .. so it includes also the army of talents one has to organize and use to fight for a living.

LiSe

elisabete · Apr 24, 2003

Uau this is great....
Thank You LiSe

heylise · Apr 24, 2003

By mistake I skipped hexagram 5. It should have been together with 6.
Hex.5 is about how to wait for what you need, hex.6 is about how to fight for what you need.

Hexagram 5. The upper part is 'rain' (heaven and drops), the lower part a beard. But in Wang-HongYuan I found two apparently older characters. One seems a man and drops or something like that, the other one a man standing below rain. Maybe the man with drops is a person getting wet.
A beard or hair-growing seems to be used for waiting too. But the man with or below the rain makes most sense.
In China there were often torrents of rain, sometimes resulting in a flood. Many people lived in pits, dug out hollows, so one can imagine how it is when the rain refuses to stop.
When it rains, on the fields or in the head, one has to wait, but a lot depends on how one waits. Don?t wait in low places, or in a low spirit.

Hexagram 7 and 8 are both about protecting territory. How to defend it and how to organize it.

Hexagram 8. The character represents two people standing or walking behind each other or side by side. Original meaning: to juxtapose. Later: to be close to, compare, equal, similar, to be neighbors, join forces, to be the origin of, follow, concordant, partisan, to form a clique (opposite to zhou, universal), unit of 5 families.
When Yu had conquered the flood, he called all the chiefs of the clans together, in order to organize the state. They were probably all very independent, but only cooperation could prevent floods, or conquer them.
One of Bi?s meanings is ?to be the origin of?, and Yu?s assembly was the origin and the joining of forces of the state of Xia

LiSe

heylise · Apr 24, 2003

Hexagram 9, Xiao Chu. The three little dots above are the character ?small?: three grains of sand or rice, millet, whatever.
The second character has at the top a drawing of strands of silk. At the bottom is a round or square field with dots marking the presence of a crop. So it can indicate the harvest of silk and crops. The ?field? can also mean hunt and ?silk? is sometimes used for ?small?, so ?small crops? is also possible. And still others say it is a character meaning dark or green, but in the oldest pictures it does not look like that.
The most common meaning of Chu is livestock, or to raise livestock. Other meanings: nourish, support, cherish, suppress, accumulate, store, gather, keep, meadow, put out to pasture in nature, conform with, follow, tolerate, support, docile. Collect, store, save up, hoard, reserve, accumulate.

Hexagram 10, Lü.
The character represents a corpse or a sitting man (at left), who is impersonating the deceased person at a funeral (he sure had to 'behave'). A foot on a road : going. Of the road only one side with side-road is left over. A boat (top right), also indicating a shoe: Chinese shoes look like boats. And another foot (bottom right). The oldest form of this character was probably simpler, but I could not find one.
LÜ means: shoe, sandal, wear shoes, to tread, follow a track, traverse, accomplish, (right) conduct, virtue, rite, hold an office, domain (of a prince), path.
In Chinese astrology the third branch is Yin, and its animal is the Tiger. The meanings of yin are: behaviour, gait, ritual politeness, being full of respect for, revere (the spirits).
In China one?s way of treading and the tiger are closely related: the tiger is a symbol of supple movements (Tiger Balm for the muscles!).

LiSe

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