Well, since I've been in front of the computer most of the day today, I'll throw one of my own questions in for good measure and that was:

Am I on the "path of Return"? ( this was regarding my life in general)

57.2 > 53

I took that to mean a "yes" provided I get to the root of the problems and work on those elusive, negative influences - pesky little devils

Appreciate any other renderings of this line.

Topal

Topal:

Another aspect comes from Karcher. He's written about this line:

"What partakes of both natural and spiritual realities will open the way."

It sounds to me like a call for you to use your instincts in the process....

Best,

Miakoda

Sounds like you're doing diligence, Topal.

Have you referred to LiSe's 57 on this? I find her 57 clarifying, and quite a bit different from other renderings. If nothing else it may assist your work in regard to what it is you are returning to.

Topal,
This is a very fine reply. When you speak of Return I am supposing you mean return to the Essential, ones nature. I think it was one of the Chinese masters who said "He who accords with his nature and acts with ease is a sage." I think that is all we need to do and the rest will take care of itself.

Line two is an affirmation that you are embodying the middle way, the great center. Don't know your personal history, but there is also a hint that you may well need to fall back on outside help (priests and magicians i.e.therapist or counselor of some sort.) Also it wouldn't hurt to read hexagram 24, since you used its name in your question.

Best regards,

Ken Wanamaker

Post Script

I think I need to include a post script to my reply to topal and with this quote

I took that to mean a "yes"

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I think that where matters of spirituality and self-development are concerned we can't say with finality that 'yes' we are on the right path. Self-development is a process of perpetual on-goingness. We can't give ourselves airs that we have arrived since there are ever higher relations to ourselves that we can attain to. I think that the reply is stating that at the time of the question you were on good ground, but it is important not to presume upon that lest we start to coast and find ourselves on the bad side of hexagram 29. Don't know where you stand in your understanding of this but I thought I would mention it. You might also want to ask, at this juncture, what you might be doing to further your continuance on the path of return. If you are at all given to prayer you might pray: If I am on the path of Return I pray to be sustained on it. if I have strayed I pray to return to it.

This is why the oracle is so valuable. One has a little "Checkpoint Charlie" to monitor where one is at.

Best regards,

KW

Hex 57.2 says that you still have to sort out the problem of others who seem to be acting against you, so before you proceed any further root out all opposition because the last thing you need right now is secret or known enemies.

Hex 53 Patience, take it slow and steady, gradually creep up on your goal.

"Another aspect comes from Karcher. He's written about this line:
'What partakes of both natural and spiritual realities will open the way.'
It sounds to me like a call for you to use your instincts in the process...."

Thanks Maikoda. Yes instincts, intuitions and plain old persistence and diligence as Bruce mentioned. Been coming out of a depression and this is not an easy thing. But of course, it was never meant to be. LiSe's work has been very helpful in that regard.


Ken:

"This is a very fine reply. When you speak of Return I am supposing you mean return to the Essential, ones nature. I think it was one of the Chinese masters who said "He who accords with his nature and acts with ease is a sage." I think that is all we need to do and the rest will take care of itself."

Ah, but if it were that easy we'd all be "in accord with Nature" But yes, you're correct, I am speaking of returning to my path (whatever that is) both in terms of my nature and destiny - for want of a better set of labels. The rest can "take care of itself", only when we are seeing clearly and not sinking into self-directed BS as we are all prone to do. I'm not seeking perfection here, but I'm still making life difficult for myself by refusing to let go of the past. Patience is not one of my greater strengths nor is being a wallflower which seems to be the required response at this time.

"Line two is an affirmation that you are embodying the middle way, the great center. Don't know your personal history, but there is also a hint that you may well need to fall back on outside help (priests and magicians i.e.therapist or counselor of some sort.) Also it wouldn't hurt to read hexagram 24, since you used its name in your question."

Good Advice. I have to say I don't feel like I'm walking the middle way. But it would be great to think so. Help is not necessary in the therapist sense, but sharing here is probably enough right now.

24 was actually a preceding answer from another day which prompted this question.

Thanks Ken,

Topal

magictortoise said:

I think that where matters of spirituality and self-development are concerned we can't say with finality that 'yes' we are on the right path. Self-development is a process of perpetual on-goingness. We can't give ourselves airs that we have arrived since there are ever higher relations to ourselves that we can attain to.

Click to expand...

Very true. No, I'm under no illusions on that score. Finding the REAL self can take a lifetime, but to getting back on the path of access as it were is all part of that...But yes, you're right - work in progress.

magictortoise said:

I think that the reply is stating that at the time of the question you were on good ground, but it is important not to presume upon that lest we start to coast and find ourselves on the bad side of hexagram 29.

Click to expand...

I still think I'm at the bottom of 29, but it is teaching me something valuable about unknowns, facing fears and learning to scale the walls out of that pit. 57 and 29 can certainly go together. Getcha meaning though. I think it can all too easily fill up with mud!

magictortoise said:

Don't know where you stand in your understanding of this but I thought I would mention it. You might also want to ask, at this juncture, what you might be doing to further your continuance on the path of return. If you are at all given to prayer you might pray: If I am on the path of Return I pray to be sustained on it. if I have strayed I pray to return to it.
This is why the oracle is so valuable. One has a little "Checkpoint Charlie" to monitor where one is at.

Click to expand...

Sound advice. It is a question of reaffirming as you say, and sticking to what I know to be true rather than the transitory. I'd be fairly lost with the IC, I have to say.

Thanks again for your input Ken,

Topal

willowfox said:

Hex 57.2 says that you still have to sort out the problem of others who seem to be acting against you, so before you proceed any further root out all opposition because the last thing you need right now is secret or known enemies.

Hex 53 Patience, take it slow and steady, gradually creep up on your goal.

Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth!

Thanks WF.

Topal

really good news.

Great to hear the Yi is giving you a thumbs up! Keep on peeking below the bed lol.

topal said:

Ain't that the truth!

Thanks WF.

Topal

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't think that's the truth. I think that's usually called paranoia. The enemies within, now that's a different story. But any shaman worth his or her mojo pouch knows, these enemies bring important messages.

I dunno quite why but I always take 57,2 a bit tongue in cheek. Too much earnestness, frantic checking out of omens and signs, neurosis in its funny aspect, somehow Woody Allenish - checking and re checking - good fortune though, no harm in doing all that.

Certainly i can't see any danger in the line. I've always gotten it it that kind of "OMG am I doing the right thing' state and it always feels like the Yi is laughing at me - and that kind of how I take this answer. The path you're on is the path you're on and wherever you are you're on the path of return - I think paranoia about ones own demons as well as outer demons may be being gently mocked in this line.

The only other reason I can think of as to why i take this line as humourous is that I have a Yi book with a ridiculous picture of someone with spiky hair with devils pointing at him
from under a bed i think.

bruce_g said:

Oh, I don't think that's the truth. I think that's usually called paranoia. The enemies within, now that's a different story. But any shaman worth his or her mojo pouch knows, these enemies bring important messages.

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Although I wouldn't consider myself paranoid I've seen enough to know that I'd rather be paranoid than dead. That does hold true for some situations, believe me.

But that's exactly how I interpreted this particular rendering i.e.Plenty of enemies within.... rather than any overt opposition right now.

Topal

trojan said:

I dunno quite why but I always take 57,2 a bit tongue in cheek. Too much earnestness, frantic checking out of omens and signs, neurosis in its funny aspect, somehow Woody Allenish - checking and re checking - good fortune though, no harm in doing all that.

Certainly i can't see any danger in the line. I've always gotten it it that kind of "OMG am I doing the right thing' state and it always feels like the Yi is laughing at me - and that kind of how I take this answer. The path you're on is the path you're on and wherever you are you're on the path of return - I think paranoia about ones own demons as well as outer demons may be being gently mocked in this line.

The only other reason I can think of as to why i take this line as humourous is that I have a Yi book with a ridiculous picture of someone with spiky hair with devils pointing at him from under a bed i think.

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No, I can't see any danger either, except the danger I attract from my own blindness. I think that is the natural result if we don't pay attention to things: 29. But yes, I do fall into the OMG state quite frequently as I'm really tired of being in the quicksand.

I don't think "wherever you are you're on the path of return" has validity for me. That feels like a platitude and is far too nebulous. A path of return (i.e away from ignorance and repeating patterns of behaviour) needs to be consciously trodden otherwise you're just like the ball in a pin-ball machine. It takes effort and will as well as humour and fun don't you think? Letting it all flow according to the Tao doesn't just happen to my mind, it has to be created intentionally as balance of active and passive. Like going straight to simplicity without first navigating the complexity can't be done.

Anyway, I'm rattled with things today, so maybe I need some Woody Allen...

Topal

topal said:

I don't think "wherever you are you're on the path of return" has validity for me. That feels like a platitude and is far too nebulous. A path of return (i.e away from ignorance and repeating patterns of behaviour) needs to be consciously trodden otherwise you're just like the ball in a pin-ball machine. It takes effort and will as well as humour and fun don't you think? Letting it all flow according to the Tao doesn't just happen to my mind, it has to be created intentionally as balance of active and passive. Like going straight to simplicity without first navigating the complexity can't be done.


Topal

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It depends upon the part that is doing the 'conscious treading' - to my mind using effort and will is good up to point for certain things but the trouble is they are very much ego driven and people get so hooked on how far along on the spiritual path they are and where they are on the path and so on to my mind it just becomes another ego trip.

Will and effort may come into defeating destructive habits and behaviours but I don't think they always have alot to do with expanding spiritual awareness or receiving grace - (pardon the language there I get stuck for terms to use) I think more often it may take conscious choice to reach that but thats not the same as effort.

And haven't you ever noticed sometimes in every day life the less effort you make to push things into how you want them the easier they happen anyway.

As for psychological 'faults' and so on, such as anger etc I've seen far too many spiritual 'aspirants' squidging their feelings down, always talking in a level tone etc but actually just being quietly nasty - they make an effort to repress their feelings because they deem them 'wrong' but it is their ego that judges them wrong and their ego that gives them a pat on the head if they think they are doing well.

Theres something about the use of the term effort in this context that makes me think of someone constantly anxiously keeping an eye on their performance, but in my own experience, my deepest and best meditations come not when i am concentrating hard with furrowed brow but when i let go of all that performance anxiety.

As for returning, well to me it seems even in the depth of ignorance once cannot be separated from ones path, theres no where else to go is there ? It may sound like a platitude but then I don't necessarily think effort prevents one being like a pinball in a machine - just a pin ball thats being obedient to its superego.

But you know thats just my point of view right now, I appreciate you feel it differently -
and then again i can't really say how much effort it takes to reach enlightenment cos I'm not enlightened I'll tell you how hard it was when i get there except I expect you will get there first because you worked harder

Anyway however you see the answer you got, yes I think its positive.

trojan said:

It depends upon the part that is doing the 'conscious treading' - to my mind using effort and will is good up to point for certain things but the trouble is they are very much ego driven and people get so hooked on how far along on the spiritual path they are and where they are on the path and so on to my mind it just becomes another ego trip.

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(Sorry I have to answer point for point on this subject - call it my obsessive nature..)

I couldn't agree more. You have summarised the New Age or Human potential movement. Never I have I met so many narcissists and sociopaths in this field. It lends itself to such people. There are wonderful people too of course, but they so often become the prey for these other folks who thrive on manipulation and seduction.

Frankly, awareness that 99.9% of our endeavours are ego-led is not the issue. But differentiating between what are lies and what is truthful or authentic requires effort right? I think we live in a world that is VERY twisted and distorted. Not the Tao, Life, the Universe but our relationship to it. So, of course, we must be here on this earth at this level of matter because we fit! Sure, we can't be perfect otherwise we wouldn't be getting our feet dirty.

The twist in most religions - including Asian philosophies and dare I say the Tao, is that it is fine and dandy to go with the flow - we should and can, but on no account does that imply that we attempt it as an escape from reality and without paying attention to the nuances. The IC is a wonderful tool in that respect. It says pay attention to objective reality which always requires effort, discipline to achieve results and before we get to that "flow." I don't mean that in a poe-faced-whipping-oneself-and-wearing-steel-underpants kind of way either. I think it's then that humour and positive emotions become vital. But to attain those qualities and level of refinement is different for everyone and necessarily dependent on personality traits and genetics. So, yes, I agree, it depends entirely on intention and motive, which in turn depends on knowledge and awareness of one's choices.

trojan said:

Will and effort may come into defeating destructive habits and behaviours but I don't think they always have a lot to do with expanding spiritual awareness or receiving grace - (pardon the language there I get stuck for terms to use) I think more often it may take conscious choice to reach that but thats not the same as effort.

And haven't you ever noticed sometimes in every day life the less effort you make to push things into how you want them the easier they happen anyway.

Click to expand...

Completely agree. It is also true that sometimes "the path of least resistance" is a path that the Shadow side of God employs frequently. Humans will seek the easy way out for most things because we are essentially very weak and malleable beings, open to all kinds of carrots and controls. "Friction" and shocks are the only way that progress can eventuate, imo. For Creativity to be birthed I don't think it comes through finding a safe place within nor does it come from banging your head against a brick wall until there's a bloody mess. I think It requires knowledge to choose when and how we can proceed. That's the tricky part!

trojan said:

As for psychological 'faults' and so on, such as anger etc I've seen far too many spiritual 'aspirants' squidging their feelings down, always talking in a level tone etc but actually just being quietly nasty - they make an effort to repress their feelings because they deem them 'wrong' but it is their ego that judges them wrong and their ego that gives them a pat on the head if they think they are doing well.

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Exactly. Which is why the New Age and most occult and religious movements are riven with whackos because it plays to the ego that one is "ssshpecial" Which is why objectivity on this issue is so difficult. I think through networking on these issues (like this) a wider field of awareness can be achieved. Get's the neurons firing...

trojan said:

Theres something about the use of the term effort in this context that makes me think of someone constantly anxiously keeping an eye on their performance, but in my own experience, my deepest and best meditations come not when i am concentrating hard with furrowed brow but when i let go of all that performance anxiety.

Click to expand...

Again, I agree, and I understand what you mean but I wasn't really talking about performance anxiety in the sense that you mean but I can see why it could give that impression. Letting go, trusting, stilling the chatter and having faith are all important and something I definitely need to cultivate.

trojan said:

As for returning, well to me it seems even in the depth of ignorance once cannot be separated from ones path, theres no where else to go is there ?
It may sound like a platitude but then I don't necessarily think effort prevents one being like a pinball in a machine - just a pin ball thats being obedient to its superego.

Click to expand...

Nope - can't agree here. Fundamentally, we can go towards Creativity or entropy; Being or Non-Being; up the spiral or down the spiral; towards illusion or away from illusion. The "higher" you go and the more progress one makes, the more subtle it gets and the harder it gets before one arrives at the state of simplicity so often talked about. Call it the karmic wheel or an endless repetitive film or the all consuming Eagle. But if we only see what we want to see based on what we want to know then our beliefs will conform to that and we will be in blissful ignorance. And yes, maybe you are right, even if we are in ignorance that is a path in itself, but let's not pretend it is a Creative one.

Sure, misdirected effort will always fail. Which is why ignorance creates so many problems. Which is why the world is steeped in lies and is suffering from the effects of this misguided and guided manifestation of ignorance as oppose to applied Knowledge.

Don't get hung up on effort here, even if I harp on about it But I do believe it is an important part of the picture. Name me anything of quality and truly Creative that doesn't have effort and will.

trojan said:

But you know thats just my point of view right now, I appreciate you feel it differently - and then again i can't really say how much effort it takes to reach enlightenment cos I'm not enlightened I'll tell you how hard it was when i get there except I expect you will get there first because you worked harder
Anyway however you see the answer you got, yes I think its positive.

Click to expand...

Actually, I think we are on the same page Trojan just some different experiences and patchy data creating the present discussion. I've met too many people who claimed to be enlightened and were merely very intelligent! I'm happy not to be enlightened and thoroughly ignorant. It means there's still much to learn. And learning is fun! And maybe learning becomes effortless at some point on the spiral?

Anyway thanks for allowing me waffle and making the EFFORT to read through all this!

Topal

Enjoying the dialogue between you two, and find myself nodding along as I read both.

Topal, there's just one thing in your recent post which doesn't feel quite right to me. That is the emphasis on the virtue (I know you didn't use that word) of following the Creative path. The reason it discords in me is that, I view the Creative as encompassing what we humans would consider some very negative attributes. Not that's it's at all really negative in the big scheme of things, but the way it effects us on a subjective level can include such things as: ruthlessness, war, dominance, lack of feeling, even violent death. These attributes go hand-in-hand with what we might call divine inspiration and heaven's blessings.

Trojan's pov seems to reflect the opposite side of this, characteristic of the Receptive: walk the path you're walking, accept your destiny, don't strive or struggle to make things happen, and so forth.

To me, those magicians and priests, whether frightening or funny, mystical or practical, are helpers who guide us to equalizing our extremes, in either direction: light and dark. In this sense, you each are saying what the other probably needs to hear.

bruce_g said:

Enjoying the dialogue between you two, and find myself nodding along as I read both.

Topal, there's just one thing in your recent post which doesn't feel quite right to me. That is the emphasis on the virtue (I know you didn't use that word) of following the Creative path. The reason it discords in me is that, I view the Creative as encompassing what we humans would consider some very negative attributes. Not that's it's at all really negative in the big scheme of things, but the way it effects us on a subjective level can include such things as: ruthlessness, war, dominance, lack of feeling, even violent death. These attributes go hand-in-hand with what we might call divine inspiration and heaven's blessings.

Trojan's pov seems to reflect the opposite side of this, characteristic of the Receptive: walk the path you're walking, accept your destiny, don't strive or struggle to make things happen, and so forth.

To me, those magicians and priests, whether frightening or funny, mystical or practical, are helpers who guide us to equalizing our extremes, in either direction: light and dark. In this sense, you each are saying what the other probably needs to hear.

Click to expand...

Yes there's some label confusion here. That's my fault.

I use Creativity in the sense of it being "the ultmate deed of unselfishness" as some bright spark once said. The opposite of that is Entropy - a contractual dynamic that requires more and more energy to sustain itself. I was using a tripartite relationship and a third force which defines how this is applied. The Creative and the Receptive can both manifest destructive qualities which lead to Entropy. Creative = the destroyer which penetrates and breaks up and Receptivity = the yielding that absorbs and consumes drawing all into it's abyss. So when I use "Creative" in this context, I'm using with those "higher" qualities in mind where Truth is the Creative force and the Receptive allows it to birth very much entwined around each other as the yin-yang symbol implies.

Kinda like this: Creativity/Receptivity in that circle and Entropy always defining the tension between the two.

In my mind I had a different "structural" relationship is all.

Topal

topal said:

Frankl I think we live in a world that is VERY twisted and distorted. Not the Tao, Life, the Universe but our relationship to it. So, of course, we must be here on this earth at this level of matter because we fit! Sure, we can't be perfect otherwise we wouldn't be getting our feet dirty.

Click to expand...

This is where I part company with you - this sense that we are here because we are 'dirty' because we are 'fit' at this level of matter. So are all children born to this world stained with sin then ? This view just seems to contribute to an unhealthy level of unwarranted guilt.

The twist in most religions - including Asian philosophies and dare I say the Tao, is that it is fine and dandy to go with the flow - we should and can, but on no account does that imply that we attempt it as an escape from reality and without paying attention to the nuances. The IC is a wonderful tool in that respect. It says pay attention to objective reality which always requires effort, discipline to achieve results and before we get to that "flow."

Click to expand...

I think theres a problem with how we are using the idea of 'go with the flow' - I don't think that just means being lazy - i think it means being fully awake. I agree totally people have used this idea though to sit back and do nothing or not bother to correct injustices in the world - have used it sometimes to justify leaving things as they are.

It is also true that sometimes "the path of least resistance" is a path that the Shadow side of God employs frequently. Humans will seek the easy way out for most things because we are essentially very weak and malleable beings, open to all kinds of carrots and controls. "Friction" and shocks are the only way that progress can eventuate, imo. For Creativity to be birthed I don't think it comes through finding a safe place within nor does it come from banging your head against a brick wall until there's a bloody mess. I think It requires knowledge to choose when and how we can proceed. That's the tricky part!

Click to expand...

Eh you mean the devil - the shadow side of God employs our path of least resistance ?
Ooh I dunno about that - I'm not that sure there is this active dark shadow side - there could be I suppose - but its not something I consider much.

Fundamentally, we can go towards Creativity or entropy; Being or Non-Being; up the spiral or down the spiral; towards illusion or away from illusion. The "higher" you go and the more progress one makes, the more subtle it gets and the harder it gets before one arrives at the state of simplicity so often talked about. Call it the karmic wheel or an endless repetitive film or the all consuming Eagle. But if we only see what we want to see based on what we want to know then our beliefs will conform to that and we will be in blissful ignorance. And yes, maybe you are right, even if we are in ignorance that is a path in itself, but let's not pretend it is a Creative one.

Click to expand...

How can there be Non Being ? Where can that live ? (you don't have to answer that)

.

Don't get hung up on effort here, even if I harp on about it But I do believe it is an important part of the picture. Name me anything of quality and truly Creative that doesn't have effort and will.

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A baby, a butterfly, a tree, a flower -well I guess its arguable about will and the baby, lol, but does a tree make a concerted effort to grow or does it just develop, ( you don't have to answer that )

Anyway thanks for allowing me waffle and making the EFFORT to read through all this!

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Thankyou for explaining your position Topal, its not waffle its very interesting. I think in some things we are on the same page :bows:

Actually as an afterthought it occurs to me the reason I might appear anti-effort re personal development etc is probably because for me in the past it has backfired in that I made myself ill in thinking too much about it all - and then I was no use to anyone least of all myself - so like with hex 60 now I respect my own limits re effort . I maybe projecting that onto you

trojan said:

This is where I part company with you - this sense that we are here because we are 'dirty' because we are 'fit' at this level of matter. So are all children born to this world stained with sin then ? This view just seems to contribute to an unhealthy level of unwarranted guilt.

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Oh no! That's not what I meant at all. No, I think there is something to the recurrent myths in both religion and gnostic thought that suggests that we chose the physical to experience in order to know and learn. That is not a "dirty" thing - it's a wondrous thing. At the same time, you could see this Earth as a symbol of higher realities. And I'm sure you'd agree for most of the world's population life on this Earth is an extremely harsh experience indeed. That is my point.

trojan said:

Eh you mean the devil - the shadow side of God employs our path of least resistance ? Ooh I dunno about that - I'm not that sure there is this active dark shadow side - there could be I suppose - but its not something I consider much.

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It's not a matter of "could be" - there has to be as light wouldn't exist. I think that's where we part company. To understand how the Dark side works is vital as it is just as much a part of the Universe as the Light. (not to embrace it of course - but to learn from it in order to SEE how to avoid it) If you don't have any knowledge of the highly deceptive ways of the Dark then you can easily be claimed by it. Look around the world. Or as I think the Cathars used to call it: "The World inside the Devil." But that is not a easy thing to do. I went into it and couldn't take the heat. Lots of Hubris there. But then tell that to those families in Iraq who live with hell everyday. I'd say they consider it quite a bit.

trojan said:

How can there be Non Being ? Where can that live ? (you don't have to answer that)

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Oh but I will Non-being could be said to be entropy or emptiness; living in fantasy or not being in the present. Or our ability to assimilate knowledge and apply it which can increase Being. (To BE or not to BE) Many different ways to define it. Creative and whole or entropic and fragmented and thus towards the vacuum. But this "being" has a limit dependent on understanding i.e our capacity to learn and apply it.

trojan said:

Actually as an afterthought it occurs to me the reason I might appear anti-effort re personal development etc is probably because for me in the past it has backfired in that I made myself ill in thinking too much about it all - and then I was no use to anyone least of all myself - so like with hex 60 now I respect my own limits re effort . I maybe projecting that onto you

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Well, me too Trojan - I'm also discovering my own limits over the past several months. And that is such an important part of the process. The world is an extraordinary place.

Thanks for sharing,

Topal

trojan said:

How can there be Non Being ?

Click to expand...

One would saY: in a similar way than there can be antimatter

But. what do I know?

topal said:

Non-being could be said to be entropy or emptiness; living in fantasy or not being in the present.

Click to expand...

One would say: if "non being" is this, ancients sages wouldn't teach to achieve "non being" as a goal to our development. But what do I know?

topal said:

It's not a matter of "could be" - there has to be as light wouldn't exist. I think that's where we part company. To understand how the Dark side works is vital as it is just as much a part of the Universe as the Light. (not to embrace it of course - but to learn from it in order to SEE how to avoid it) If you don't have any knowledge of the highly deceptive ways of the Dark then you can easily be claimed by it. Look around the world. Or as I think the Cathars used to call it: "The World inside the Devil." But that is not a easy thing to do. I went into it and couldn't take the heat. Lots of Hubris there. But then tell that to those families in Iraq who live with hell everyday. I'd say they consider it quite a bit.

Click to expand...

To me darkness is simply absence of light as darkness is in the physical world. If I equate evil with darkness its the same, the absence of light - I'm not sure negativity has its own power source any more than darkness does. This was a difficulty i was touching on in another conversation here where it seemed to me someone was saying darkness/negativity was an equal and opposite energy to light - and even associating it seemingly with yin/yang. I say I'm not sure because its possible evil has its own energy source, I don't really know - but I had thought it was an utter abscence of love rather than a force in its own right. I have an open mind on that though. Not sure why you bring up Iraq families - experiencing great suffering does not logically have to lead to a belief in a dark side with its own energy force - could be complete absence of light.

Oh but I will Non-being could be said to be entropy or emptiness; living in fantasy or not being in the present. Or our ability to assimilate knowledge and apply it which can increase Being. (To BE or not to BE) Many different ways to define it. Creative and whole or entropic and fragmented and thus towards the vacuum. But this "being" has a limit dependent on understanding i.e our capacity to learn and apply it.

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Even when I'm living in fantasy I'm still being and there is no non being I can conceive of. I might be being pretending or playing at not being but I am still being. And BEING itself - unity consciousness cannot be increased or decreased by anything - it is beyond relativity or striving. Well i will find out about not being when I am dead eh

cejudesc said:

One would say: if "non being" is this, ancients sages wouldn't teach to achieve "non being" as a goal to our development. But what do I know?

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Good point - I understand my spiritual goal as extinguishing the fiction of myself in the one SELF so to speak - to use a cliche like the raindrop and the sea - the raindrop doesn't strive to be the sea it gives up the fiction of being an independant raindrop

OMG don't laugh at me - philosophical discussion is not my strong point - not once i get onto raindrops and oceans - but if we take the raindrop as the analogy it can wander about and plot and plan but eventually its going to return to the ocean whether it likes it or not, lol

cejudesc said:

One would say: if "non being" is this, ancients sages wouldn't teach to achieve "non being" as a goal to our development. But what do I know?

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I think you have your ontological wires crossed here to believe that the ancient sages all had the best interests of the populace at heart. Clearly, some forms of Buddhism fall into the trap of "emptiness" or nihilism which I see as a definite corruption only brought back to sanity by Taoism.

Either way, the general consensus is that Non-being is non-existence so that might tell you something about your "sages." The teaching of Non-being can also be defined as Existential Satanism, something which one form of Tibet Buddhism happened to influence at least some of the Third Reich preceding World War II.

Topal

trojan said:

To me darkness is simply absence of light as darkness is in the physical world. If I equate evil with darkness its the same, the absence of light - I'm not sure negativity has its own power source any more than darkness does. This was a difficulty i was touching on in another conversation here where it seemed to me someone was saying darkness/negativity was an equal and opposite energy to light - and even associating it seemingly with yin/yang. I say I'm not sure because its possible evil has its own energy source, I don't really know - but I had thought it was an utter abscence of love rather than a force in its own right. I have an open mind on that though. Not sure why you bring up Iraq families - experiencing great suffering does not logically have to lead to a belief in a dark side with its own energy force - could be complete absence of light.


Even when I'm living in fantasy I'm still being and there is no non being I can conceive of. I might be being pretending or playing at not being but I am still being. And BEING itself - unity consciousness cannot be increased or decreased by anything - it is beyond relativity or striving. Well i will find out about not being when I am dead eh

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It is really interesting to see how words mean one thing to one person and quite another for someone else. Perhaps I should say that I see darkness as a more poetic description of negativity. No light is completely devoid of negativity I believe. Shadow defines light and all that. There are natural opposites to everything all governed by cycles. The night has the moon the Day has the sun. Everything "powers" everything else. The same with human beings what "powers" us? We need negativity as much as we need positivity. They are bound uo with each other it depends on what takes precedence.

Evil certainly has as much power as we wish to give it. Does Nature have evil? I believe not. Does it have negative energy and positive energy - a yin-yang of the environment? Yes I think it does. Does Evil i.e. conscienceless beings exist as a manifestation of a Uinversal and NATURAL dynamic made so by a chosen intent? Yes I think it does. The absence of Love is true. But it is also a force in its own right too. it "FORCES" things to matterize or to vibrate at lower rate, so to say. But it does this by use of deception, manipulation and trickery.

My point about those suffering in Iraq was this: You wrote: "I'm not that sure there is this active dark shadow side - there could be I suppose - but its not something I consider much."

Well, "considering" this active side - i.e. evil - has been forced upon the Iraqi population wouldn't you say? Over a million people, mostly children slaughtered. I think they are having an up-close and personal relationship with how this "active shadow side" interacts with their daily lives. They are forced to look into it through grief and suffering of the most intense kind. This creates emotional clouds of negative thought and pain and I believe this is how mere negativity grows into evil/entropy/Non-being and in turn attracts all those that resonate to that energy form.

Topal

trojan said:

Good point - I understand my spiritual goal as extinguishing the fiction of myself in the one SELF so to speak - to use a cliche like the raindrop and the sea - the raindrop doesn't strive to be the sea it gives up the fiction of being an independant raindrop

OMG don't laugh at me - philosophical discussion is not my strong point - not once i get onto raindrops and oceans - but if we take the raindrop as the analogy it can wander about and plot and plan but eventually its going to return to the ocean whether it likes it or not, lol

Click to expand...

Here's my answer at this juncture:

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his bed
Nothin' seems to fit
Those raindrops are fallin' on my head, they keep fallin'

So I just did me some talkin' to the sun
And I said I didn't like the way he got things done
Sleepin' on the job
Those raindrops are fallin' on my head, they keep fallin'

But there's one thing I know
The blues they send to meet me won't defeat me
It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me

[trumpet]

It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me

********

Nothing like some good 'ole fashioned 1970's cheesiness to banish philosophy into the Abyss - All you need to know to get through life. (Note the trumpet)

Topal

what a song eh

That was a good go, Topal. I don't necessarily agree with all you've said, but I admire that you have the energy and guts to say it.

Same for you, Trojan. I'm not used to hearing (reading) you speak philosophically. Next we'll get you talking mythologically .