Hi there...

I really would appreciate some help with what the Yi is saying to me here because it involves my feelings about the direction of this forum. My feelings are my problem, and I have to solve them within, so I've asked the Yi's help.

Since I'm talking about my own frustration here, I'm not going to mention names. Additionally, for the sake of his/her anonymity, I originally composed this post with the he/she and him/his/her pronouns. But it just got ridiculous to read, so I've gone back and replaced those intended non-gender references with the masculine pronouns he, him and his for the sake of clarity. Please just keep in mind they are not intended to be gender specific.

I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the direction of this forum. I feel that one person is trying to dominate.

I almost titled this thread "Obsessive Shameless Self-Promotion." I did a forum search to determine the number of times his website has been referenced in the last few months, and I found 27 pages and 272 repeats of the acronym for his website!!! Can you imagine what it would be like if everyone who reads and/or posts and has an I Ching site referenced and linked to it as much as he has? Forget imagining it!!! My mind is already exploding at his figures alone! Of course, others have used the acronym for his site in their posts in response to him, but even if their use comprised half of the total word count (which it doesn't, of course!) the figures are still staggering! They say shameless AND obsessive to me. He's literally made every thread he's posted to about his site. I have a variety of tools I use to avoid advertising as much as possible on the net, and my purpose for coming is certainly not to be bombarded by it.

The figures above say a lot about him, and I feel a great deal of compassion for him, but I'm not here for him. I'm here for me...to connect with a LOT of people and learn from them as well. His words do not carry any more weight for me than any one else's. They just occur a hell of a lot more often.

LiSe talks about sifting through the mud for the gems. Well I don't mind a little mud, but the gems are getting impossible to find. I now can't access TWO threads to get to them. And I just wonder if their value is worth the time it takes to sift through this one person's mud when I CAN access them. And that's what it's become for me...mud...it's all repetition at this point...rote, rote, rote, rote. For me, he has achieved the opposite that he surely must intend to achieve. In fact, I now perceive his posts as 29.3 because of their obsessive nature.

I can no longer access yet another thread in this forum, and where does it stop abruptly? Where the person in question is yet again shamelessly engaged in self-promotion. And I'm ready to leave. It's become too time consuming sifting through or even getting through the mud. But I don't want to leave.

So...

I asked the Yi what I could do about my frustration, and they answered 14/5.6 to 43. I get a definite feeling of a direction from that answer, but, as always, I would love to hear all your thoughts on the reading.

Thank you so much.

Love always,

Val

Val,

Given the question as being directed to your frustration, I'd say 14 was the antidote. The ideal scenario. Fire in Heaven - Strength and Clarity unite.

Applied to you, this presents a picture of how things ought to be. As such, you then take on the responsibility of speaking out from these two influences, Strength and Clarity.

Your change lines elevates these ideals to an even higher level. 5 adds accessibility and dignity. 6 adds detachment and modesty.

Altogether, these are the loftiest of ideals, offering you the highest in what can be achieved.

With 43 as a backdrop, Fire is replaced by Lake. A lake over heaven means rain. Moreover, a cloud burst. A release of what can't any longer be held back.

Hang in there.
Candid

Maybe not alot of help, but just to say my feelings are just the same Val, and thanks for expressing it. I don't appreciate being bombarded with such self promotion. This is not an advertising space and that is what this person is using it as. I always had the feeling this was an unhealthy thing that would spread and spread if not checked, and I've watched it do just that.

As Dharma has said, its never good to chuck the baby out with the bathwater and sure the person may have much of value to offer which some may not want to lose - but somethings wrong here - it ain't an advertising site !

Maybe 14 to 43 speaks most of all of your courage to tackle the problem. (see that Candid expressed the same more or less)
It is very difficult, I have often been thinking about it. We don't want to miss 'him', but the long mails are often dominating a conversation, which otherwise would have developed quite different. It happened several times, that I wanted to join in a conversation, but before I could post, it was full of theory, and I let go.

Could it be a solution, when the people with complex information posted on a parallel thread? Then everyone could choose: read only the 'simple' version, or going to the in-depth information too. A thread with the same name, only something small added at the end of the name, so it is clear that they belong together. But that depends entirely on them, if they would be willing to do so.

Hoping we can solve it in such a way that everyone is happy with it.

LiSe

I think of 14 as the wealth that emerges from a group that becomes more than the sum of its parts. So perhaps that is where 'decision' emerges from!

So... cloudburst, as Candid was saying. Val emerges from the group and stands up in the king's court, hopefully without resorting to arms.

What next?

I suggest we brainstorm for possible solutions. First we put as many ideas out there as we can, then, once we've got a good list of possibilities, we discuss them.

One other thing. Please try to stick to solutions, not to get caught up in analysing each other's motives. Or this will become another thread Val and I can't load...

LiSe has one option: Chris (or anyone else technically-minded) starts a parallel thread.

Another one: those not technically minded start a parallel thread.

Option 3?

Candid...

Geesh...you just zinged right on in there...yet again...didn't you?

"A release of what can't any longer be held back."

And Louise, in voicing my frustration, I faced and struggled with the dilemma of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which is certainly not what I want to see happen. You understand! PHEW!

There are valuable gems somewhere amidst all the "advertising." Same with television, but I miss the gems there because television is an advertising vehicle...the programming is paid for by advertisers, so I choose not to watch, except rarely...when I know the gems are rare and beautiful. This forum, however, when I came here was not an advertising vehicle...and I liked it that way.

LiSe...

I recently proposed a similar solution...and it was ignored. Who knows. Maybe yours will click.

Love always,

Val

Hilary...

Your post hit when I was still in the preview window with my previous post.

Thank you. I LOVE your forum and ALL the people who post here.

Even if it's in a separate thread, I want to read the technical approach. I just don't want the repetitive advertising overshadowing it. I've had to read the acronym for his site 272 times in 27 pages in a scant few months!!! That's an awful lot of pepper in the meat (or vegetables for the vegetarians here...*grin*). Too much for my digestive system...if you get my drift.

Love,

Val

why doesnt he write his answer on his website and just provide the link when he posts here.

a one line url would be relief.

I personally don?t like setting limits, but its seems that 60 applies practically here. Its not a question of content, just that of tonnage. Its not a personal issue but a practical one. Limiting the length of posts to a reasonable length to express knowledge, a thought, a story, a dream, an interpretation or anything else one cares to share. The active word is: reasonable. And it would apply to all without bias or discrimination. That limit could be determined, should this way seem right.

The solution is with the individual involved surely. Why does the site have to adapt to him, why not he adapt to the site - he is a guest afterall, as we all are - and consults Yi ? (don't know if he does or not)

Maybe he could ask Yi how best he can tailor or streamline his approach to communication here, since we seem to agree there is some kind of problem, but don't want him to leave. I can't understand why the site must change rather than he change ?

Still I guess at least if it was on a paralell thread I could totally ignore it without having to scroll down for miles or search for a thread where he isn't.

It would help somewhat if he didn't repeat what the previous poster has said in every post. After all I just read it !

One of the most serious problems that has been voiced here, is that some people have been unable to post a reply in a long thread. That is because they have to load the entire thread to get to the "Add a Message" area at the bottom of the page. It seems to me that it could be made possible to have that area on a page by itself, that can be accessed directly. Since Chris used to be a programmer, and probably a good one, perhaps he could write a software bypass of some of kind.

Namaste,
Joan

Joan...

That's not my problem. My problem is exactly as I stated. I can always start a new thread as an extension of the old thread if I want to post. That's what I will have to do with the 61 & 62 thread if I want to post to it, because it now has bit the proverbial dust. That's THREE threads I can't access now.

I really believe the solution lies within the "advertiser." He's outstretched his arms in a space he shares with others. If he wants to join hands with the others, then he has to pull his arms in a little. It's his choice. I fear the choice he'll make. He's made it before. That's why I hesitated to post my feelings, but the Yi encouraged me...citing a need for a breakthrough...resolution. So I did. And I'm glad I did because, in the past couple of hours, it's become abundantly clear there is indeed a need for resolution.

Love,

Val

I just want to add one thing. I do hope he chooses to pull his arms in a bit. I want to hold hands with him.

Besides...he keeps smacking me in the face...OUCH...every time he stretches out his arms...*grin*

Love,

Val

- This forum has an 'archive' function that can chop off the beginnings of threads beyond a certain length and post them elsewhere - it'll even do this automatically, I think, so no more labour for me . I could enable that.

- I could get the forum transferred to a system (like Invisionboard or Phpbb) that automatically spreads threads over several pages. (This is an expensive option, but something I'll almost certainly do eventually anyway, to fit in with other pet schemes I'm brooding over.)

- OK, I don't like this option at all, but there is also a 'limit post length' checkbox somewhere in the admin section.

This begins to feel a bit odd. Talking about somebody who doesn't participate. I hope he will join soon.
In another thread he wrote that he can come across as "intense". Yes, intense, fiery.
Fire spreads, expands, takes a lot of space, physically (long posts) as well as psychologically in the sense that it can become overpowering.
I think many of us love his fire but we don't want to get our wings burnt, or our dial up connections for that matter.
I think, dear still-nameless that the solution is simple, you need a cool beer now and then.
Am I right?

Sorry, Val.
I assumed you had opted to receive posts in your mailbox, and therefore wouldn't have to access the entire thread unless you wanted to add a message to it. You have a right to access the entire thread at the website, for whatever reason you want, and my suggestion will not solve that problem. Consider it withdrawn.

Namaste,
Joan

In fairness, I feel it should be noted that what Chris 'advertises' is offered free of charge. That in itself says something about the man. It is astonishing the prodigious quantity of data he has typed out with 2 fingers, he says, and he offers it to us as a gift. That is most generous, but what he just needs to understand better is that it is only a gift if you are allowed to say, "No thanks." What many here are saying is they don't like having it forced on them. And they have every right to have their objections addressed.

Namaste,
Joan

14 deals with a core source directing things in a positive, proactive manner (as compared to the reactive manner of 08)
to avoid too much clutter to this list (people have asked me to supply a link if possible rather than the prose), here is the link for more relational details on my interpretation of 14:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x101111.html - click on the hexagram symbol to get the other page.

43 deals with 'spreading the word' - the act of seeding, of sending out 'cuttings' far and wide. For more relational details:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x011111.html - click on the hexagram symbol to get the other page.

If we intepret this change as a warning then the direction setting, the proactive, expansive archetype reflected in 14 is over-directing, being too focused on 'seeding' ;-) and so taking one away from the archetype of pushing out a boundary 'smoothly', orderly.

The energy of 14 is reflected in the trigrams, from perseverence (heaven base) comes direction-setting, an ideology etc (fire top).

The intensity of 43 is from perseverence (heaven base) comes intensity in expression (lake top).

If we interpret this change as a true change, then the direction setting from the center has transformed into going out into the 'world' to spread the word. ;-)

Chris.

WOW!
LiSe

All,

> One of the most serious problems that has been voiced here,
> is that some people have been unable to post a reply in a
> long thread. That is because they have to load the entire
> thread to get to the "Add a Message" area at the bottom of
> the page. It seems to me that it could be made possible to
> have that area on a page by itself, that can be accessed
> directly. Since Chris used to be a programmer, and probably
> a good one, perhaps he could write a software bypass of some
> of kind.
>

hilary uses a propriatory product, she could limit page lengths as so force people to start a new thread when they can no longer add to the existing thread. Unlike lists such as mine on yahoogroups, where each email is available as an individual element and to link the thread you have a display-by-thread choice, the clarity product appears to work-off the creation of one HMTL file per thread to which is appended all emails.

For short discussions this is fine, but for long discussions, and they are not all by me, things can get lengthy such that slow dial-ups can have problems. I often get a page back only half completed as I try to insert my email that I write 'off line' since I cannot submit it to a clarity email server to then distribute. - and so am aware of the problems with long pages - lots of retries, refresh etc etc

In the overall discussion of the I Ching, I dont think I am *over*-promoting anything other than supplying my interpretations of things as any others supply their interpretations. TO do that I cannot 'dump' my IDM material webpages in toto on to Hilary's list, that would be 'over-promoting'! so within my I Ching-related texts I supply links. If people are not interested then dont read them. There is no cost involved. all free.

I find Val's comments 'excessive' but see in them issues of personal frustrations etc and so excusable - I also had a laugher at the 14 to 43 relationships - my interpretations of which I posted earlier. (Val can, IMHO (and she knows it), run hot and cold and as such can come up with 'frustrations' expressed in emails (even private ones) where there is disagreement etc with beliefs - this can also set-off an unconscious 'desire' to seek 'revenge' in some form for a 'slight' of some kind - normal, predictable conduct Val! ;-))

to put on my 'arrogant sh*t' hat - the IDM/ICPlus material is 'revolutionary' in the context of understanding our species nature etc and the IC in particular, and if people cannot deal with it thats not really my problem, I dont force it, I just use it and suggest others try it. By trying it I believe it can EXTEND the relationship with the IC etc and so 'refine' some personal issues that draw many to the I Ching in the first place. Overall, the proof is in the eating but most dont feel hungry enough at this time so I just persevere and there are others interested such that when I am gone the 'spirit' will live on ;-)

I recognise that there WILL be issues here in that the 'high energy' focus on the 10th century BC perspective will force a degree of resistence to the 21AD ICPlus work, it *has to* in that the 10BC approach is 'artistic' and as such personalities get entangled with the material and so any 'new' material may be seen to reflect on the skill levels of those personalities (as in not picking-up on this 'new' material in their supposed 'intense' reflections on the 10BC I Ching over the last 3000+ years! SHAME SCIENCE SHAME!)

I have had many emails from those who find it all too much in that for some it elicits a degree of instability in that it raises issues re 'truths' we have been taught and that includes truths used in the area of assertion of personal identity, spirituality, etc etc. What many seems to miss is the strengthening of the relationship of individual to species-nature!

My natural style is to be honest in sharing thoughts, hide nothing, no games playing etc (and so I can, when 'pissed off' happily fire all guns and dont worry about the consequences!), and so my prose, due to linking of all of the details, can be long (I supply the SUPPORT data as well as the answer and so give the reader perhaps more than they feel is required but enough to reflect upon rather than keep asking one 'simple' question at a time). If you all prefer, I can withdraw from this list and if you want discussions re ICPlus then join my dedicated ichingplus list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ichingplus (that said, we are having severe email problems over here such that posts to my yahoogroup lists, not very active anyway, have not reached their destination in DAYS but I do get the emails from other yahooogroups so the incoming is not the issue, (as in I receive Clarity posts in minutes of their submission) more the outgoing - could be a 'bounce' problem with yahoogroups etc)

Overall, I will not change since overall I have no need to, I am happy within myself ;-). If a few are 'upset' by my perspective, tough. If that attitude is too much then I can leave, no problem to me, I do not have my identity tied-up in this list and the work is independent of my persona in that it sums neurosciences etc and so is more scientific, less artistic (my prose is not as 'fluid' as the more artistic but the content is often more 'factual' ;-)) such that it will come out by someone else, somewhere else. The work is not tied into my economic life and as such is a product of one mind interested in what the hell is going on (and with that comes a degree of paranoia as in we are not being told 'everything' and discovering that 'they' are, as Deb pointed out, suffering from 'tunnel vision'!)

To ignore all of the 'exaggerations' by all parties, the issues of page lengths suggest restriction of page length together with the manual or possible automatic creation of a second thread when the page fills up (that IS possible using dynamic HTML, XHTML etc etc where the new thread of say "15 to 56" becomes "15 to 56 [2]" etc.)

I think the LONG prose above explains my position in enough detail for some to 'reflect' upon - much better than some 'expletives-loaded' short email and storming-off in a huff ;-)

Chris.

Hi Chris,
Yes its me again,

Quote

"to put on my 'arrogant sh*t' hat - the IDM/ICPlus material is 'revolutionary' in the context of understanding our species nature etc and the IC in particular, and if people cannot deal with it thats not really my problem, I dont force it, I just use it and suggest others try it. By trying it I believe it can EXTEND the relationship with the IC etc and so 'refine' some personal issues that draw many to the I Ching in the first place. Overall, the proof is in the eating but most dont feel hungry enough at this time so I just persevere and there are others interested such that when I am gone the 'spirit' will live on ;-)"

This is great stuff, Chris, I saw 'you' saying that . That came from your 'guts'. More of the same please!

Once I can understand you (to the best of my ability), then your material becomes immediately more tangible, because I know where you are coming from.

I think this thread is really about trying to draw 'you' closer,
and explaining that you dont have to reference all your ideas, you dont have to worry about proving anything.

I personally am still looking for Chris, who to me is a lot more interesting than the IDM material. Prose away!

OK - advice, please!

I can turn on the archiving thing: that will automatically move the posts at the beginning of a thread to a separate, read-only 'archive' page, and link to the archive from the top of the current thread.

Question: if this is a good idea, what is a good maximum number of posts for a page? Sorry, it can't be done by number of words, only of posts. Val, could you count up how many posts you can load on the too-long pages and give me an average? (I think your connection is worse than mine.)

(Chris - I can't limit page lengths, as such, and I can't get it to start a new page when the original reaches a certain length. These are just not things this software does. Perhaps someone could hack it so that it did... but then Discus would not approve, and I wouldn't get any more support from them.

Have you considered moving your icplus group away from Yahoo, onto a forum? I could send you what I've read about the most popular software.)

Hi Hilary,

You wrote:
> I can turn on the archiving thing: that will automatically
> move the posts at the beginning of a thread to a separate,
> read-only 'archive' page, and link to the archive from the
> top of the current thread.
>

sounds reasonable.

as to transfering, too much up-keep. the current email situations are tolerable in that the lists are very quite when compared to clarity etc. it is just a touch frustrating and I think a problem with the ISP etc not yahoogroups. (local email from the ISP gets distributed, foreign does not seem to make it! I have another ISP and could try them but if the current email crisis is recovered then all of my past emails will be triplicated! - I could also login to yahoogroups and post from there but again, if again, if the current situation is recoverable then those emails will eventually get through. I will wait for a few days and see how things pan-out, but thanks for the offer ;-)

I have just picked-up a long term contract and so my postings will be in a window of after-hours rather than the current situation of writing 'randomly' and often! ;-)

Chris.

Davidl,

thanks for the comments but it is an issue in 'empassioning' my prose re IDM/ICPlus etc - one needs to be 'objective' doesnt one (! ;-)) and so maintain the GENERALITY of it all. IOW the scientific over the artistic.

To be more artistic I will need to get into presentations etc since my prose is not that 'poetic' enough to get the artistic across in words along! - and as I have stated, the focus is not on replacement etc overall, more on integration etc

Chris.

Good Morning Chris...

Well this morning is an omen...*grin*...that this is going to turn out to be a great Sunday. What more could I ask for than to sit down with a cup of good hot coffee and read an interpretation you so generously shared with me. I really appreciate your help.

Thank you!

Yet again your understanding of the combination of lines and hexagrams involved in a reading has given me whole new insight.

After reading your interpretation, I got this image of the top line (that was acting as a "lid" of sorts over the opening in the line below) trading places with the line below so that the contents in the hexagram below could pour forth through the opening. And it was done in a loving and gentle way by the heavens after they said..."Stay cool"...*grin*

Love always,

Val

Dear Chris...

So you've picked up a long term contract, eh? So you'll be back to professional invoice writing, eh? Well, congratufreakinlations! I'm so happy for you. Excuse me for a minute while I jump out of my chair to do a celebration dance.

I'm also happy you trusted me to share you feelings with me. That means more to me than I think you can realize or I can express. It's very important to me. Thank you!

Love,

Val

Hello everyone

Could it work to ask everybody to observe a voluntary restriction on long posts, such that if we have something to say that will exceed an agreed limit, we post it to a new thread and then post a reference to it on the original thread?

Or perhaps, if it's mainly Chris' posts that cause problems, he would agree to do what Tashiiij suggested and post his full message to a page on his website and a link to it here.

And Val - I have so much admiration for your courage in speaking out on this. Mind you, the Yi didn't give you much choice, did it?

And Chris - your response reflects your generosity of spirit just as I have come to expect from the weeks I've been watching this forum from the shadows. And at the length I've come to expect, too!
Love,

Shelley

Hilary and Chris,
the archive option offers a simple solution for the problem of unloadable threads. Simple gets my vote, and it's less work for 'Mother'.

I think there may also be a simple solution for those who object to having to scroll through certain members' posts that they don't want to read. If you were to assign an ID number to each member, Hilary, and append that number to "ICC discussion Forum" on the 'From' line in the outgoing e-mails, the recipient can set his mail options to block all e-mails from a sender containing that ID number in the heading. S/he could still go to the ICC website and read them later if they decide to.

To make the top line shorter, you could remove the word 'discussion', since that is redundant anyway.
IOW, it would look something like this:
FROM: I Ching Community Forum;ID#15
Come to think of it, I have no idea how you would get the computer to append the member's ID to the from line whenever s/he posts. Can it be done reasonably simply?

Namaste,
Joan