Why Does Society X and Y?

unsubscribed_cm · Apr 14, 2011

Why Does Society X and Y? 39 Unchanging.

I asked a question and got the same answer I got the last time I asked about society on a broad level about it's insanity. Just reading the news, and looking at media, i'm just appalled beyond any ability to really integrate it.

My question was both times basically (both 2 years ago and recently):

Why does society do X and Y insanity?

Reply:

Hexagram 39 Unchanging.

Water on the top of a mountian cannot flow down in accordance with its nature, because rocks hinder it. It must stand still (hexagram 12?). This causes it to increase, and the inner accumulation finally becomes so great that it overflows the barriers. The way of overcoming obstacles lies in turning inward and raising one's own being to a higher level.

So is this saying that society has "issues" or more apocryphal: "difficulties" that need to be resolved? I mean thats pretty much how I took it.

What do you all think? We need a higher level of consciousness presto or insanity in human society will go on... :bows:

unsubscribed_cm · Apr 15, 2011

anyone dare speak?

bamboo · Apr 15, 2011

what do the X and Y stand for?

unsubscribed_cm · Apr 15, 2011

Two different kinds of insanity...

The two questions were phrased

Why does society X?

Why does society Y?

Both answers were hexagram 39 unchanging.

The X and Y are appalling acts of injustice and fetishism to be more clear.
My question was sort of trying to ascertain why society does these things and allow them to happen.

bamboo · Apr 15, 2011

I understand what you were trying to do, but I was wondering specifically what types of acts are you referring to.......you dont need to say, but it could have a bearing on how one would interpret your responses.

unsubscribed_cm · Apr 15, 2011

Thx for your interest. But i'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps you can give me an example? I think that i've included all the relevant details.

bamboo · Apr 16, 2011

well why do you even use X and Y then? surely you are referring to a particular type of injustice and a particular type of fetishism, right? or why don't you just say "why is society unjust?" ??? I am not sure what particular things you get ticked off by..surely it is not just general 'injustice'??

diamanda · Apr 16, 2011

CyclotronMajesty said:
Why does society do X and Y insanity?
Reply:
Hexagram 39 Unchanging.

A block.
So either society is thick / blocked and does X and Y out of sheer stupidity.
Or society does X and Y in order to put a block to something, stop something.
There's a block somewhere there, so society either has it, or does it, in my opinion.
Or even, there's a general block ahead, and society can't go past that, so behaves thus?
Only you know what you are referring to, so perhaps the 'block' notion makes sense to you.

unsubscribed_cm · Apr 16, 2011

I'd like to keep it general here. I'd like to keep our personal politics out of it. Was hoping I could get an unbias response here.

"Disgusting" things happen across human societies all the time, I just wanted to know in general on these issues why they happen.

Obviously though the people who do these things think they are not disgusting, that they are good. For example slavery in colonial America. Today that is recognized as bad, but back then not so much.

Same case may be here. Some of you if I told you what they were, would probably also agree that this is justice. But I see it as injustice. And on the other issue you may view it as one thing while I see it as fetishism.

Also 39 does not mean a impassable chasm, but one that is passable after some internal changes take place. I don't see it as a message that it's hopeless or that i'm at fault for asking, I think i'd get hexagram 4 or something unrelated to the question if that was the case.

bamboo · Apr 17, 2011

I only asked about the nature of X and Y because that could make it easier to understand your responses. Why do people steal? why do people enact hate crimes? why do people like kinky sex with animals? the answers would not all be the same

goddessliss · Apr 17, 2011

Or why do people get angry or upset if someone has a different point of view or opinion than theirs?

I don't get that, maybe you don't agree but at some point you gotta grow up and learn to agree to disagree! xx

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

CyclotronMajesty said:
I asked a question and got the same answer I got the last time I asked about society on a broad level about it's insanity. Just reading the news, and looking at media, i'm just appalled beyond any ability to really integrate it.

My question was both times basically (both 2 years ago and recently):

Why does society do X and Y insanity?

Reply:

Hexagram 39 Unchanging.

Water on the top of a mountian cannot flow down in accordance with its nature, because rocks hinder it. It must stand still (hexagram 12?). This causes it to increase, and the inner accumulation finally becomes so great that it overflows the barriers. The way of overcoming obstacles lies in turning inward and raising one's own being to a higher level.

So is this saying that society has "issues" or more apocryphal: "difficulties" that need to be resolved? I mean thats pretty much how I took it.

What do you all think? We need a higher level of consciousness presto or insanity in human society will go on... :bows:

More of less ignoring which society and the X and Y specifics -- I think the rest is clear. People in any circumstance are often blocked from what is considered mainstream and correct, from enacting all those marvelous norms and rituals and symbolic festivals and iconic moments -- so they create their own "high" point and symbolic achievements. They are stressed, pushed, and limited, at one and the same time. They follow what is the path of least resistence -- and having worked with delinquent kids and families with generations of criminal history I could give you a billion examples. People see and aspire to the things that are put there for them, and those are built over multi-generational influences and potentials.

I remember asking a kid in East LA [Los Angeles] what he wanted to be when he grew up. He was five. And he smiled a huge smile and said, "A home boy," which is of course a gang member. And then he said he'd go to prison like all of his uncles. So, tell me why he picked that when he could have chosen a doctor, lawyer or butcher? He had a certain idea of what was there to be achieved and enjoy.

I read an article this week on women and pornography. It says that women under all sorts of societal pressure are logging onto porn more and more and pointed out the real chemical high people get from this stuff. And it becomes addictive. Bullying other people becomes addictive too. So does logging into Clarity I'm here to announce. :rolling:

Whenever we are comparing what is "perverted" or "unjust" we all have a starting place relative to where we've been. What I learned working with troubled people at one point along the way is that tests can say that the IQ of a multiple offender adolescent is generally pitiful compared with mine, they are misdirected and without meaningful lives. On the other hand, I saw a kid in juvenile hall who was being observed through a full-wall one-way mirror take a ballpoint pen, feel his way along to a certain point in the glass, and stab it full force into the mirror and the thing shattered into a billion glass beads onto the floor in front of him, leaving a couple social workers and psychiatrists face to face with him and shocked out of their tiny little minds. So tell me how we compare his ability, motive, intelligence and theirs? Who was injust and who was right? He was standing there in ankle cuffs accused of God knows what, and yet in my heart I cheered for him, a kid being treated like a monkey.

And maybe i'm going too far off the point here, but I think it's obvious why people get into "aberrant" or "deviant" behavior in societies where everything is skewed to the material and to rules that create the wrong heroes -- bankers who utterly fail society and reap huge bonuses anyway, people of shallow celebrity and power-drunk government leaders -- and leave out a lot of the right ones -- and by that i mean spiritual models and adults who are kind and represent a power that radiates hope and warmth and love of mankind. Until that happens, whatever society we are operating in, people are going to flow where the pressure and helplessness takes them. And God bless them, they need a hug, and they deserve a hearing of all the facts, every one of them. :hug:

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

Hi there Trojan, I see what you're saying, however, I was just focusing on the answer that the Yi gave, mirroring whatever Cyclo Majesty was thinking on enquiring about the "insanity of society." So whatever that "insanity" entails, even if it isn't insanity to the rest of us, it is caused by stress and pressure.

In relation to people being hetero or homo sexual, nobody has a conclusive reason behind that. The most extensive research I know of says that there's a genetic component in relation to sexual choice and that[and I don't know the right term here to explain what geneticist have found] there is a genetic component that is "switched on" at some point. Why not? Throughout childhood people display all kinds of sexual tendancies -- both homosexual and heterosexual. At some point, the choice is made. And it may very well be made for the kinds of reasons I described in my last post -- pressure, stress, taking the line of least resistence. But we ALL make the choice for some reason and could have chosen either way.

Therefore, coming full circle, if the question to do with societal insanity is about homosexuality or heterosexuals, or why people choose the wrong career, or why some kid egged my picture window, or why they elect those dirty rotten Democrats/Republicans/Tories/Labour/ or why the neighbour beats his wife, or whatever else, I think the answer is still the same. Societal pressure, what they see as the easiest way, what they are predisposed or even addicted to, because life is a rough game and a contact sport.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

trojan said:
Are you really saying homosexuality may be caused through stress and pressure. How bizarre.

39 isn't especially about stress and pressure, thats more of a 28 thing. 39 may feel stressful if you keep on trying to push through an obstcles in the same way as you always have done.

What ! it sounds like you are lumping homosexuality in with choosing the wrong career or kids egging a picture window ! sounds like you are saying homosexuality is a mistake or misbehaviour like choosing the 'wrong' career . You really think homosexuality is a mistake or something ! ? Or worse you compare homosexuality to wife beating ! Do you think homosexuality is a social problem ! ? Really !

Tell me I have mistaken your meaning....please... Tell me I am wrong and you don't think homosexuality is some sort of 'mistake' like a bad career choice, or 'naughty' like throwing eggs at windows....or violent like wife beating !

Yes, you are wrong.

I am saying that the choices that we make in life are based on all kinds of factors -- you can call them stresses -- stresses aren't bad you know, they are usually part of the learning process -- although they can be overwhelming and push us into stuff we don't want if we succumb to that. Pressures [even opportunities are pressures of a sort] are the forces that move us to do one thing -- or another. Some of us decide to be heterosexual based on the forces that create this expectation, or this physical response. Others of us choose to be homosexual because the forces in our lives create this expectation, or this physical response. Initially, we apparently have both possibilities. And if you look at childhood psychology you see that kids do all kinds of testing in sexuality -- and normally try a bit of both during latency.

OK. Then there are social conditions that teach us to have happy marriages, or dull marriages, or no marriages, be married and have separate lives, have ten kids, six kids, no kids, adopt kids, have kids and raise them, have kids and kill them, have kids and beat them senseless every time we get a chance, have kids that want to be just like us because we're great parents. What we learn and act upon in life comes from the society around us, the pressures [including adult and peer pressure] or education [often gained with a lot of stress] and our spiritual surroundings. These are ALL pressures. And I'm not saying this is negative pressure, or stress that is making us crazy. I'm saying that life is full of pressures and stresses -- and some of them are very productive and pleasurable. And some of them make a five year old kid want to join a gang and go to prison. It's kind of, in some ways, the luck of the draw, that we get pressures that help or hinder us.

I don't know what kind of stresses or pressures or influences -- if you like that work better -- make somebody hetero or homo sexual. I'm not that sensitive about it one way or the other and I've only read or been exposed to a certain amount of information and I've never compared notes especially with my homo and hetero sexual friends. But I do think there were pivotal moments in life when they chose, as I chose. It's one factor in who we are and not the focus. It sounds like it's something that really puts you on edge and you're trying to decide if others are bothered about homosexuality. I'm not.

There are some pressures now for kids to choose to be homosexual when they normally wouldn't. It's cool. There are also a lot of young guys right now who pressure their girlfriends to have sex with other girls in front of them when it's not something they want to do -- it's also cool. If you have kids university age, as I do, you see a lot of stresses and pressures pushing in all directions and kids at the mercy of all of it and it's pretty complicated. I just try to encourage my kids to choose for themselves the things that feel truthful to them, and know they'll find others like themselves, so don't panic.

If we're talking about Hexagram 39, which I was, the stresses and pressures or influences, or whatever you want to call them, build up around a person who flows in the direction that seems to be taking him/her, because there are forces pushing on all sides and you can't decide to just sit and not make a move, you have to make choices, you have to go with what feels right, or best, or the direction of least opposition. And that, I believe, is how society makes it's decisions -- one person at a time -- but with a lot of inducement to try various things, choose your food or your poison, and keep marching -- to a distant drummer, your own drummer, the drummer that is moving the crowd, or whatever else is available. I'm not characterising any of it, I'm saying this is the process by which things occur -- whether the things that Cyclotron Majesty is decrying, or the things my kids are choosing that make me proud to be their Mom. All of it. I think that is indicated by Hexagram 39.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

BTW there's are various kinds of fetishes too -- and I've no experience of that being a trait of homosexual people particularly. Fetishes can be anything to which we ascribe a magical or disproportionate importance -- including fetishes for money and power. And, if a fetish is in relation to sex then it's usually explaining the preference of someone -- in an unusual way -- for say knees or feet or hands, or ears, or some part of the body.

I don't think it matters a hoot what C Majesty sees as "insanity" in society. I think, no matter what, the Yi Ching is saying, where you see people making choices and going with the tide that carries them, for good or for ill, you see Hexagram 39 at work. Whether you believe that what they are doing is nuts or just fine, is your opinion.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

trojan said:
I did not say fetishism had anything to do with homosexuality in particular. !! And of course I know there are all kinds of fetishes I said so earlier in another post. I even said 'fetish' was not a word that had to be limited to sexuality but most often was in the way we use it here in UK anyway. Oh yes and no need to describe to me what fetishes are ......I do know which you could see if you had read any of my earlier posts.

You seem to have absolutely no idea of what my point was which was not about homosexuality per se but the fact that one cannot point at a cause of a 'disgusting festish' without knowing what it is ...and used homosexuality as an example because if Cyclo views it as a fetish...(which i don't know if he does or not) then by answering as if it is one is agreeing implicitly that there is something perverse or corrupt that gives rise to the 'fetish'...whatever it may be, which one may not choose to do. Well I don't choose to but you obviously don't give a toss so you go ahead but please don't misconstrue what I said in the first place.

As you are incapable of seeing my point I'll leave it there. BTW though homosexuality may have no especial relevance here, I'd say that actually some people may think homosexuality is a choice, some don't. So thats just your opinion anyway

No reason to go in so many circles and site so many potential arguments, because I'm not arguing with you. And yes, this is all just my opinion -- what else does this forum invite?

I am under the impression, that CM is trying ask a question that resulted in a casting: Hexagram 39. What I am saying about t hat casting is that it doesn't matter WHAT aberrations or circumstances or "insanities" CM may be referring to. I am trying to steer away from characterising those "insanities" and toward just saying what the casting could mean because, as you said earlier, CM never named the features of insanity. And i don't think the Yi cares at all -- so why should we?

I think the Yi Ching is saying, where one sees what one might construe to be problematic in society [whether it is or not to others], one can know that the variety of behaviours of human beings [whatever they may be and whatever opinions you have about them] are caused by the conditions described in Hexagram 39 judgment. Those conditions are that matters build around one, pressures, opinions, stresses, and these eventually overflow into one's behaviour, choices, direction in life. Like water flowing on, because it has to.

The rest of what I discuss above is tangential to answering CM's question, because you wanted to posit that CM might be referring to homosexuality, and i was saying that homosexual behaviour, indeed ANY behaviour could be generated in the circumstances described by Hexagram 39. And my comments on fetishes were for anybody who wanted to know them, not you in particular, which is why I didn't quote anything you were saying.

I think the sentence underlined is unhelpful in clarifying anything.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

What an exhausting exercise. And what's the point, really, when it changes nothing, helps no one, is just an exercise in words. I love the AHA threads, the ones where the light comes on; whereas, this seems to me real work with no benefit.

sooo · Apr 17, 2011

I'm into rubber chickens, but not roosters.

Btw, fwiw, speaking of fetishes, the modern BDSM culture was born within and grew from out of the leather homosexual community.

I've known gays and lesbians who were born that way. A client of mine, a young Christian woman, was desperate because she or her husband couldn't understand why their 4 year old boy was always in his mother's closet, dressing up in her great big high heeled shoes and her other more delicate and feminine apparel. I was also present the day a male friend of mine made his decision to pursue the gay lifestyle. There is no one reason or answer, no one size fits all reason why we are what we are or become what we become.

So long as it's safe, sane and consensual between adults, it really doesn't matter to me what someone's sexual choices or natural inclinations are. So much for my personal bias.

I found Arabella's association of 39 with all of these, and similar complex matters, very interesting. A young boy with an overly strict and punitive father and overly protective mother faces greater social developmental obstructions than a boy raised by mutually supportive parents, and the results between those two examples are likely to reflect in their sexual preferences. I'm not morally judging either. Both happen, just as bisexuality and heterosexuality happens through natural genetics and also as learned and developed preferences and behaviors. In the broadest sense, we all are formed by the obstructions we have been presented with, including our family, the schools we attend, the neighborhood we grow up in, and the people we hang out with, and what we make of them in ourselves.

However, I don't eliminate the possibility that the obstruction in CM's readings pertained to his own outlook on these things: obstructed.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

sooo said:
I'm into rubber chickens, but not roosters.

Btw, fwiw, speaking of fetishes, the modern BDSM culture was born within and grew from out of the leather homosexual community.

I've known gays and lesbians who were born that way. A client of mine, a young Christian woman, was desperate because she or her husband couldn't understand why their 4 year old boy was always in his mother's closet, dressing up in her great big high heeled shoes and her other more delicate and feminine apparel. I was also present the day a male friend of mine made his decision to pursue the gay lifestyle. There is no one reason or answer, no one size fits all reason why we are what we are or become what we become.

So long as it's safe, sane and consensual between adults, it really doesn't matter to me what someone's sexual choices or natural inclinations are. So much for my personal bias.

I found Arabella's association of 39 with all of these, and similar complex matters, very interesting. A young boy with an overly strict and punitive father and overly protective mother faces greater social developmental obstructions than a boy raised by mutually supportive parents, and the results between those two examples are likely to reflect in their sexual preferences. I'm not morally judging either. Both happen, just as bisexuality and heterosexuality happens through natural genetics and also as learned and developed preferences and behaviors. In the broadest sense, we all are formed by the obstructions we have been presented with, including our family, the schools we attend, the neighborhood we grow up in, and the people we hang out with, and what we make of them in ourselves.

However, I don't eliminate the possibility that the obstruction in CM's readings pertained to his own outlook on these things: obstructed.

Yes, precisely, re: the underline -- none of my business what people do. Interesting last sentence there, never thought of that type of obstruction either and glad you're addressing the casting, which we seem to have veered away from -- never to return!

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

trojan said:
well obviously I do not see what I have written as just an 'exersize in words'. The question is important to others understanding of any answer for a person IMO but in your opinion it has no relevance at all . Good luck with your questions !

Because you do not like my opinion does not mean all I have written is pointless, at least no more pointless than what you have written.

Here's what I'm saying -- As the forum is entirely a matter of personal opinion it's ok to do a lot of things and not have to agree point for point but have entirely different ideas and just let them ride as they are. And it occurs to me, the more I try to explain anything, the worse it gets, after a while my head hurts to no particular purpose, and this is the second thread like this this week -- most unhelpful.

As Bamboo said years back, it might be easier to answer CMs question if he/she specified what their objections were. But he/she didn't want to explain more, so go ahead and interpret without it, or say you can't without more information -- either way. I couldn't see the point of nailing CM down, speculating on what they weren't saying, deciding they might be homophobic, and the rest. Who even cares? It's not a court of law, it's a website about the Yi Ching!

Sometimes T, I just wish you'd lighten up a bit and take it easy. It's not the end of any world. I've seen the end and we're nowhere near it. :hug:

XO Arabella

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

PS, it is arguing that I find so pointless - not just here, but anywhere.

arabella · Apr 17, 2011

trojan said:
ironic then that you recently cast hexagram 6. Maybe it would actually help you to recognise arguing rather than pretend its something else. Now that really is pointless.

If you want to help, help, you've got the floor. If you want to teach, you've got the knowledge, no doubt about it. But I fail to see how the damning direction taken on this reading helped or taught anyone.

And to clobber people with allusions to past readings that were placed here in trust, that's below the belt I think, and not the purpose of the forum.

Trojina · Apr 18, 2011

I deleted all the posts as I had enough of this whole space and need one of them 'forum breaks'.... perhaps they should be mandatory. As I said in PM I am sorry this turned into hostility to you, it shouldn't have done, wasn't really fair.

now i am on holiday.....

...and BTW when i was referring to the hex 6 and recognising it i wasn't infact thinking of you recognising it in the reading you did a few days ago but here on the forum in this thread. It was the comment about arguing just reminded me of the hex 6 and what was happening here...not in relation to your actual reading then. I wouldn't deliberately betray trust in a reading like that though i can see why you'd think I was...but actually the subject of that reading wasn't it my mind when i made the comment
here

arabella · Apr 18, 2011

trojan said:
I deleted all the posts as I had enough of this whole space and need one of them 'forum breaks'.... perhaps they should be mandatory. As I said in PM I am sorry this turned into hostility to you, it shouldn't have done, wasn't really fair.

now i am on holiday.....

...and BTW when i was referring to the hex 6 and recognising it i wasn't infact thinking of you recognising it in the reading you did a few days ago but here on the forum in this thread. It was the comment about arguing just reminded me of the hex 6 and what was happening here...not in relation to your actual reading then. I wouldn't deliberately betray trust in a reading like that though i can see why you'd think I was...but actually the subject of that reading wasn't it my mind when i made the comment
here

Hi Trojan,

Thanks for the clarification. Have a good holiday and come back with a tan. We'll all be here expecting to hear of your adventures.... :hug:

XO Arabella

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