Spiritual hierarchy

dobro · Nov 10, 2004

Because of a nudge from Calumet, I found myself reading a Karen Horney book this week that stirred things up for me a little. I found this bit in the introduction: "An integral part of the democratic ideals for which we are fighting today is the belief that the individual - and as many individuals as possible - should develop to the full of his potentialities."

Okay, here's the bit I want to explore with you: "...and as many individuals as possible..."

Really? I mean should *everybody* start to meditate and cultivate enlightenment? Is it possible to have more than one Jesus around at one time? Can we have two Jesuses? Two hundred? Two thousand? I don't think so. Here's what I think.

I think any given age has room for about one Jesus at a time. Sometimes that Jesus makes a big splash and is remembered, as in the case of our Jesus, and sometimes the Jesus maintains a lower profile, doesn't get raised on a cross, doesn't hit the headlines, but has a 'Jesus effect' on his generation nevertheless.

Furthermore, I think there's a spiritual hierarchy, with only so many places at or near the top, and an increasing number further down the heap. In other words, the democratic ideal that Horney talks about ('as many individuals as possible') means that in practice, not many people can really get too high in the hierarchy. Sure, you can get higher in the hierarchy by doing a lot of work on yourself, but please understand that you can move up only when a place becomes available, even if you're qualified to be at a higher level.

Of course, it's just an idea, but I think it's got as much validity as any other idea in its class. I asked the Yi about posting this idea here and drew 28.1.6. 'Without fault' is the general tenor of the response, although it would seem I do this at some cost to myself.

I mean, this topic's *at least* as legitimate as 'what do I need to know about my boyfriend', right?

Think this is gonna help me up the mountain?

tashij · Nov 10, 2004

In the Pure Land realms, there are uncountable Buddhas all at the same time, no problem.

What you see here, 'earth' realm, through the six sense doors, is conditioned perception. Values are based on that. Once one has seen the Pure Lands, perception too can alter.

tashij · Nov 10, 2004

But in terms of this realm of perception, it takes uncountable eons for a Tathagata to appear, so yes i think you are right about -the once in an age- thing too.

calumet · Nov 10, 2004

Dobro, how did you get from psychoanalysis to religion?

martin · Nov 10, 2004

I don't think that there is really a problem, Dobro. If you compare planet Earth to a school then the students who graduate will simply leave. And most students will probably have to leave if they ever want to earn the Jesus bull.

Earth is not exactly Harvard you know, sometimes it looks more like a school for retarded children.
Not that I believe that the school analogy is very appropriate. I see this planet more as a pub, a meeting place along the road. Humans look more or less the same but we seem to come from very different places in the universe. Perhaps that's why we have so many different philosophies, religions, ideologies and life styles. And so many clashes.

cal val · Nov 10, 2004

Dobro...

Interesting thread title so I peeked in. I've suspected myself there's a spiritual layering much in the sense of a hierarchy, so I posed the question to the Yi, "Are there layers to the spiritual realm?"

They answered 23 to 24. I left the lines (1 and 6) off here on purpose. The 23 to 24 says much.

Love,

Val

soshin · Nov 10, 2004

@ Val,

23 to 24 says much, indeed. Seems to me like there would be an everlasting revolving action in the universe. From the top of it all (23.6) to the bottom again, endless realms of experience.

I cant see any hierarchy here, just layers, as you mentioned. Very interesting.

pakua · Nov 10, 2004

Hi Dobro,

There may be only room for one Jesus at a time in the media, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't countless others wandering around, quietly doing their thing.

Even if there is an hierarchy, if you have infinite possibilities, then there shouldn't be any overlapping of two Jesus's at once. There might be a 98.5667 Jesus, a 98.5669 Jesus, etc.

Each one will be unique in any case.

And if you have an infinite amount of time, then why couldn't more and more individuals "work" their way up, until finally there was a levelling.

jeanystar · Nov 11, 2004

Quote from a sage: "23.6 is great for the minority of things that are truly sustainable, and not good at all for the majority of things that are not sustainable.
Just like time and life. It's a shakeup, and what should survive does. "

There is no spritual hierarchy anymore. Val's hexagram is quite apt. 23>24
Mankind is at crisis point......What no longer fits, what is unusable, will be stripped away, and those who have the willingness to transform to higher consciousness will do so...bringing a return of what some can call the "Christ"..........

Jesus was a man...who realized. he opened a door........Christians have worshiped him and this door, but for the most part have ignored his invitation to walk through the door......the invitation is open to all. Jesus himself said we can do what he did. There is room at the top.

soshin · Nov 11, 2004

Hi, Jeanystar,

thank you for sharing your thoughts. They are deep and profound. I really appreciate that.

The Yi said a "thunder-word" in his message to Val. I am very happy it choosed Val's voice. Thank you, Val.

And last but not least, thank you, Pakua, for explaining. You are really living up to your name. So many Jesuses out there. It's our task to see them. It's on us if we allow them to teach us.

"Nothing not advantegous"
Yijing, 50.6

Soshin

in_the_now · Mar 20, 2005

According to many Spiritual Teachers, each one of them has realised the experience called by some 'Christ Consciousness' (whatever you take that to mean).

There are a few teachers in the UK at the moment. One fairly new guy is Nick Roach (www.nickroach.co.uk). Nick helped a couple of friends of mine recently. He does claim to be Enlightened (which to some means he isn't), but he explains things pretty simply and is very approachable. If anyone knows anymore about him, or other teachers in the UK, please let me know. Once they become well known they seem to stop being so accessible.

pagan · Mar 20, 2005

If you look at the past 10,000 years of human history, there is a pattern of evolution that fits the astrological ages.

In the age of Cancer (when the precessional motion was moving through the zodiac sign cancer--an astronomical calculation) humans developed agriculture. We know they worshipped the Mother Goddess from the figurines found dating to this time.

In the age of Gemini we developed the wheel, and trade routes and writing. We developed a pantheon of Gods instead of just the Mother Goddess.

In Taurus we began worshiped the Bull. This period is called the birth of civilization with a money/surplus economy and an astounding 2000 years of peace.

In the age of Aries we developed indiviudalism--the age of empires wars and heroes. So the pharoah as supreme ruler was displaced by a lot of little empires. We replaced the Bull with the Ram and called god "I am" which is the key phrase for Aries.

In the age of Pisces god was represesnted as a fisher of men, and this period of history is called 'The age of Great Beliefs' (the Pisces key phrase is "I believe".) The majority of this age was called the Dark Ages where superstitious and otherworldly interests dominated and the advances in literature and science sharply declined.

But now we are entering the age of Aquarius, the angel, water bearer or 'realized man'. We all are headed to individual Christ consciousness. Aquarius points to science and technology and brotherhood of man. Its key phrase is "I Know".

I think that the problem seeing the possibility of an enlightened culture comes from a sense of separateness. But that is false; we are all cells of mother earth and linked at the roots. This coming age will dispel ignorance and bring the light of understanding to everyone. It is the age of immortality and doing the impossible. Just looking at today's technology and where it is going tells us what is to come.

But it is usually darkest just before the dawn and so we are seeing the political mess that is, but it is temporary and in light of the big picture of evolution, hardly worth consideration. This is a time of transition and that always creates some amount of chaos.

jerryd · Mar 20, 2005

I ask the Yi if I should respond to this thread. The coins give me a 17.3>49.

First I must tell you I am a seaker of knowledge and do not follow any doctrin of adherance. I find truth where it is applicable and try not to invent a truth to apply to situations or fabricate application to meet a truth. In the case of ataining a seat on a higher plain this is abmirable> How can one know when this is reached and if there is not already someone claming posession? I suppose if they are close at hand they will let you know, eh? At any rate 17.3 allowes me to continue seeking but I fail to recognize what 49 may be telling me? Any Ideas afloat? By the way are we not all capable of contributing to a higher plain just by the fact we are present and able to respond. I work often with intellectually challenged individuals and it amazes me when their responses are so uncomplicated amd make easy what is sometimes mentally masterbated to death by us in the real world.

jte · Mar 20, 2005

"At any rate 17.3 allowes me to continue seeking but I fail to recognize what 49 may be telling me? Any Ideas afloat?"

Jerry, since 49 is built into the reading, what it means in your particular case will reflect what 17.3 means *for the question you asked*.

I don't know enough about your situation to give very specific advice, put perhaps in this case it means making changes to be more like someone who "reached that higher level" in your view. Who that would be and the precise changes to make I really couldn't advise you on - but you might benefit from thinking that through a bit on your own...

- Jeff

jerryd · Mar 21, 2005

Ok Jeff thanks I will meditate on this and find a mentor or muse who is willing to assist me.

freemanc · Mar 23, 2005

I'm jumping back to Val's question:"Are there layers to the spiritual realm?" that recieved 23/24.

One was that, essentially, the order is everlasting revolving (Soshin) and the other of decisively passing from Age to Age (Pagan). (The two basic views of history, more or less.)

I basically agree, but I thought I'd add a couple of nuances about the moving lines that I found truly troubling.

Is the spiritual order a heirarchy, or layered or something:

Yes, but there is a power struggle; the order is to change hands somehow. And this is a project that is underway, that has to be seen through. You have to stay here and see it through.(23.0). It's now, not in eternity.

23.1 suggests some process that is underway, but still perhaps not obvious. The legs of the platform are splitting, but the rebelling parties haven't actively started destroying it.

23.6 suggests that in the spiritual order of things, there are nobles, but their conduct isn't necessarily automatically perfect. They're pretty human, not these perfected beings. Perfection is *difficult* even for the gods. (or "gods".)

They serve as role models for their people not necessarily because they're good, but because they're big.

If they're bad, the small folk will destroy the order of things on their level also.

So there is indeed a drama to be played out in Heaven. (Can perfect beings participate in a drama? I'm inclined to think not... like the godlike hero in The Watchmen.)

FC

martin · Mar 23, 2005

The hexagrams 23 and 24 and the changing lines (the first and the last) make me think of "I am the Alpha and the Omega."

Is it a coincidence that Dobro, although his question was not directly about hierarchy (but about posting his ideas about it), also got 1 and 6 changing?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega."

So, no hierarchy, no layering, I am It All.

hilary · Mar 23, 2005

Thank you, Freeman, for reviving this one. I must have missed it first time around. It's when someone (Val

) has the gumption to take a question like this to Yi that we start learning things...

23 moves to 24, and the top-of-the-heap energy moves to the root. (So much for hierarchies and an ideal of endless ascent.) Then I see the lines quite differently from Freeman (so far, at least - reading his book now...):

The two pivotal changes in this renewal are at line 1, the erosion of what we rest on comfortably (maybe a self-image built up in hexagram 22?) - and at line 6, the challenge to take the uneaten fruit and plant it in new soil. The junzi will get a cart, pile everything in, and move. The small people will just stay put and re-arrange the furniture. Difference, yes. Hierarchy?

candid · Mar 23, 2005

"To rule truly is to serve." Wilhelm 42

"losers now will be later to win" Bob Dylan

Since Jesus was mentioned in Dobro's original post:

"Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?" "John 13:6

Rather than a spiritual hierarchy, it appears more like the enduring circle of life, spoken of by Native American shaman, or perhaps the karmic wheel. 23 to 24 seems fitting.

martin · Mar 23, 2005

I think there really is a kind of hierarchy. There are beings like Seth and (still further away) Seth 2 of Jane Roberts.
I guess that many of us don't particularly like the idea of a hierarchy because we associate it with rigid authoritarian relationships between humans.
But 'up there' things are different. While humans in higher positions sometimes behave bossy and disrespectful to those who are in lower positions I have never seen such behavior in other realms. There seems to be a deep respect (and love) for everyone, regardless of how evolved that individual is.

mira · Mar 23, 2005

Yes how true, perfected beings cannot participate in a drama. Stunning. Conflict is the essense of drama.

candid · Mar 24, 2005

Seth. To evolve above the human race and become a god. To transcend the building blocks we call life and engage energy on a direct level. Geeze, I know a lot of folks who claim to do that right here. I much prefer to count it as Blake?s Divine Imagination. When's Seth 3 The Sequel coming out?

candid · Mar 24, 2005

But if there be these perfected ones, it is no wonder they hide their faces from us; lest they be called the door rather than the opening through which to pass.

How lucky we are to have this space to ramble on.

candid · Mar 24, 2005

Drama is life. But not the drama within the drama. That is imagination.

RindaR · Mar 24, 2005

There is a wonderful article in Scientific American magazine, about parallel universes that may be relevant here.

Rinda

freemanc · Mar 24, 2005

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But 'up there' things are different. While humans in higher positions sometimes behave bossy and disrespectful to those who are in lower positions I have never seen such behavior in other realms. There seems to be a deep respect (and love) for everyone, regardless of how evolved that individual is.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

23/24 gives the troubling suggestion that in fact, things 'up there' are not so different: they're a scary mess, right now.

I'm not committed on the matter; clearly, most traditions believe that the other world is, well, hell! It's the *better place!* And also is somehow out of time: there is no "right now"...

But there are other traditions. I'm thinking of the Greek gods, who were a pretty dysfunctional lot. Apallingly human. (Any polytheists out there to reflect on other such traditions?)

This "War in Heaven" line of thought kind of rattles me. It sort of smells like it might be capital T True...

FC

candid · Mar 24, 2005

I'm with you, FC. It's likely a boundless mess there. But it seems throughout that the objective is to so master the devices of this life [here] that they have no bearing there. (23-59-24) And so the transition is seamless, the obstacle is overcome in advance.

"War in heaven" is only a continuance of war on earth, and vice verse. The unbroken circle, or karmic wheel. We become the ancestors. The ancestors become here.

heylise · Mar 24, 2005

F?, the ideogram: a foot is leaving a town. It means to return to the way you use to go, to resume or carry on your own cycle. For sun and planets: going their own orbit.
FU: return, turn round or over, duplicate, to repeat, to go back, to retrace, to answer, again, to compound, complex, to recover.

If the relating hexagram is the ?situation?, the sea the question swims in, then 24 is here ?how things are?, and 23 is the answer to your question.
Hex.24 is about turning, returning, orbits and cycles. It seems a very clear picture of a total absence of any hierarchy. One does not climb, one turns in cycles. A time of spirituality, another time of earthly matters, a time of love, a time of work. All of them overlapping each other, turning, returning, evolving. No person is on a ?level?, everyone is following along his orbit, following his tao. And all those individuals turn around like planets turn around the sun. Is Mercury higher or better than Neptune, because he is closer to the sun? Or lower than Jupiter because he is so much smaller? Who knows, if Mercury gets thrown out of his orbit, Jupiter might lose his balance too and fly into space..
There is no way of comparing them to each other, because everyone has his own special qualities.

There is another matter though. If a person, or a planet, is not true to himself, to his real nature, then he cannot follow an orbit. He lacks the inner balance to follow his tao, he will not fit into the harmony of the spheres. And there comes hex. 23: you have to be pure and clean and truly yourself, everything else which clings to you will disturb your true path.

Dobro: ?I asked the Yi about posting this idea here and drew 28.1.6.?
Sounds like the Yi is telling you that you are overreaching yourself, posing a very human question to a universal principle. But.. hex. 1, quite creative to take the chance. Do it carefully because it is a very spiritual question (28.1) but don?t be surprised if is so far over your head that you drown in it (28.6). Or might hex. 1 mean that you are posing a question to Heaven himself?

Martin: ?So, no hierarchy, no layering, I am It All.?
And Candid: ?Rather than a spiritual hierarchy, it appears more like the enduring circle of life?
Sounds like that to me too.

LiSe

jerryd · Mar 24, 2005

The Idea of a spiritual hierarchy! Dont we as individuals depend on just this idea for us to progress and have free will? I believe I do. I canot fathom my self on a level beyond individual need in this world. I can believe as individuals we are destined to become absorbed into the mind of this higher being, added to it's pool of intelect on our death. If there is a spirit God of Gods and he or she requiers underlings to facilitate and direct mear mortals this is understandable. I cannot say I think they are doing such a good job in this world but here and now may not take priority. I can only wish to be allowed to follow the path which destiny sets in front of me with the hope all of you will guide me to the right minded thoughts needed to acquire knowledge useful to someone after the fact.

pakua · Mar 24, 2005

I see the question as like one of those tricky pictures where you see one thing if you focus just so, and you see another thing if you focus differently - but it's hard to see both at the same time... and yet they are both there.

Spiritual hierarchy

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