Mirror neurons allow for mimicry and so, from an emotional focus, the
development of empathy. (search using Google to give an extensive coverage)

With that tit-bit lets add the fact that, in the brain, any bias in its
oscillations across left-right brains will introduce, over accumulated time,
the particular characteristics of the left or right 'side', into the GENERAL
emotional expression of behaviour of the individual. Thus a timing issue
that favours the 'right' side can lead to a 'depressive' affect dominating
general thinking etc.

For this particular research (and associated research refs covering neural
degeneration affecting emotional expression etc (change in art colourings
etc - see Miller's work) see :

http://www.uq.edu.au/nuq/jack/procroysoc.html

So above we have (a) mimicry and so response to a stimulus with a copy of
such stimulus - like shaking hands or smiling at someone smiling at you
(unless you are neurotic and so don't trust the smile without reason - IOW
any such smile will elicit unconditional distrust and so universal distrust
- neurosis at work!) (b) a timing issue that allows for small increments of
an emotion working as stimulus to 'suddenly' elicit an emotional response
'in kind' where memory 'links the temporal dots' such that the experience is
AS IF a momentary one of intense emotional interaction.

Projection by a person of an imagined or real person onto another due to
sameness in look and/or personality will include the dominant emotion
associated with the person projected appearing on the face, and especially
the eyes, of the projector. This is often unbeknownst to the projector.

However, the projectee can see the emotional expression but need not know of
the projection, and so consider the emotion applies to them.

Seeing the emotion can elicit 'censorship' behaviour by consciousness if the
emotion is considered 'inappropriate' or no reason is detected and the
emotion is ignored. On the other hand, the emotion can also elicit attempts
to respond to it.

As mentioned above, there is evidence to show that exposure to some
expression of emotion, repeated on a regular basis over time (even if just a
smile and 'hello') can lead to the accumulation of that emotion such that
emotional resonance is achieved 'instinctively', the smile and hello are
incorporated into an emotional 'event' where the presence of
projector/projectee elicits the emotional content expressed originally in
the smile-hello. - thus if the smile-hello was originally 'one sided', from
the projector, eventually the projectee will 'resonate' by usually
responding back in the same way (mimicry). This can operate in minutes as it
can over months of exposure (or not at all - and this gets into issues of
susceptibility - for example, parents/children are susceptible to 'family'
emotions that are not registered or are just ignored by those not in a
present, strongly involved, family dynamic)

This stimulus-response dynamic works around mimicry and the notion of
emotional resonance where, like the skins of drums, if tuned to a particular
frequency, exposure to that frequency will elicit resonance without any
necessary 'intent' to do so.

In the context of emotions, from an animalistic fight/fight situation, one
member of a collective can communicate fight/flight to all others without
any of the others seeing what is causing the communication - the resonance
sets in and whole herd can turn and run 'instinctively' (and as such can
lead to 'blind panic')

The development of consciousness serves to control and so regulate this
'turn and run' or 'turn and fight' instinct through the serialisation of the
event in the form of finer, context sensitive, details that contribute to
determining the necessity to turn etc - and so a focus on local context
sensitivity. (as mammals, in play with our young, and so the local context,
we learn to pull our punches etc). This focus gives the emotion some context
and so some history. In so doing it 'discharges' the emotion, releasing it
from a raw, overwhelming, unconditional experience, to something manageable
and 'defused' by local context relationships (memories etc contribute to the
overall 'feel' of the emotion in that each link give 'meaning', a local
contribution to the 'whole' and so something to link to without being
overwhelmed)

Lets consider a more complex emotion than smile-hello; lets consider
adoration. This form of emotion is of interest since it is complex enough to
DEMAND a history be associated with it - one does not 'adore' someone
'instinctively' - this is not about lust/love, it is about a cooperative set
of interactions over time that elicit the 'stars in the eyes' quality of
adoration.... part 2...

Projection and Transference (part 2)

In the context of projection/transference we have:

(1) person A sees person B.
(2) person A notices the look and/or personality of person B reminds them
strongly of person C.
(3) the reminding is so strong that whenever person A sees person B they in
fact see person C, ignoring, marginalising person B - person B has become
the canvas onto which C is projected and no more than that.
(4) The moment person A projects person C, so the dominating emotion
associated by A to C will appear on the face of person A, especially in the
eyes. Here we focus on the 'adoration look'.
(5) Meanwhile, person B is not a passive observer here, person B will see
the emotions on the face of person A but NOT necessarily the projection
going on. As such person B can interpret the emotions on the face of A as
being applied to them. (In active psychotherapy the projection is expected,
in the passive dynamic of everyday interactions the projection can be missed
- and it is not a subject covered in 'social dynamics 101' at high school).
(6) In the particular case of adoration, if the adoration is of a daughter
for a father or a son for a mother or a brother for a sister, all that is
seeable is the 'stars in the eyes' of the projector but no history is
supplied. This look can register but be ignored due its unusual form
however....
(7) If this 'look' is applied to person B repeatedly casually over time (5
minutes one day, 1 the next, 10 the next etc), where it is registered but
with no acknowledgement or seeking of understanding of the 'look' (social
dynamics not allowing for such socialisation etc), person B's emotions will,
over accumulated time in this state, start to resonate and so actively start
to respond to the stimulus; any previous censorship by consciousness is
over-ridden and the emotion can suddenly over-whelm.
(8) Thus the particular response here will be in an overwhelming 'adoration'
for the original projector by the original projectee 'for no reason', as if
it has 'come out of nowhere' - the lack of history about the 'look', about
the projection, means the emotion is 'raw' and as such overwhelming.
(9) The adoration can be finer understood if accompanying it comes 'support'
emotions of 'nesting' - these emotions are the irritating, intrusive
thoughts that pop into mind 'suddenly' with a focus on the care of one's
offspring ("did she pack clean underware?" etc etc - this thought suddenly
taking over the mind in the middle of some business presentation etc!). As
such, person B starts to have these thoughts about person A The presence of
such thoughts indicates the adoration is of the
father-daughter/mother-son/brother-sister 'type' (overall focus on 'kin') -
and with that comes all of the history of that relationship but here it is
missing, all person B 'has' is the adoration and no more (but with the
presence of 'nesting' so an indicator of what is being delt with in general)
(10) When the 'resonance' takes over it is unconditional, it does not work
like the original projection of a 5 minute 'look' every day, it takes over
and 'demands' release at any hour, for many hours, of the day. As such the
emotion becomes destabilising and a threat to 'everyday' living as it seeks
a history so it can be 'discharged'.
(11) The important focus here is on the emotion coming with a need for a
history, it is not an 'immediate' emotion such as lust or anger - it as a
'family' emotion, an integrating, socialising emotion that, on its own acts
like a 'cancer' in that it has lost its 'place'.
(12) These sorts of emotions, if not 'discharged' (e.g. learning of, and
understanding the projection and so getting some history) can gnaw at the
psyche and elicit neuroses where anxieties develop of a situation that can
turn into character neuroses and go on to influence the life of person B
'for no reason'.
(13) The necessity for history shows it is 'talk' that discharges these
events, not drugs, since the talk gives the necessary history that
'diffuses' the intense emotion and so grounds it. As such, the emotion needs
a 'story' to go with it (and this gets into issues of 'rewriting' one's
history to 'remove' such 'random' emotions by grounding them even if
artificially - the ability to project/transfer passively means allowing for
'unpermissioned' emotions to be 'planted' in individuals and we do find this
in the every day in the form of music and advertising where the repetition
forces 'transference' BUT we are more often consciously aware of what is
going on and so apply censorship. The issues come where we cannot or do not
think there is a need since all 'looks fine')
(14) In the focus on discharge, drugs can help the physiological affects and
effects of the transference but not the mental conditions of the singular
nature - unless the memory can be selectively wiped, but I gather this is
still in the 'testing/development' phase! ;-)
(15) The essential issue here is that such transferences can be totally
unconscious, there is no recollection of any 'look' since consciousness has
'censored' it and so all we have is the emotional 'unconscious' developing
this 'festering' emotion that has no perceptible 'reason' and can apply not
just to an individual but to a collective or some 'thing' or
'god' etc - the emotion has been 'picked up' like a virus and can turn into
a 'cancer' due to its lack of 'place' (as cancer cells lose their sense of
'place' in the body and so express themselves 'universally', context-free)
(16) For a rough introduction to our emotional 'unconscious' (and so
witnessing at times the 'censorship' taking place) I have a 'test' program
at work covering emotions by using the I Ching forms of representations of
situations (Chinese book of changes). The methodology involves giving our
emotional being some 'coat hangers' in the form of very 'generic' questions
onto which our emotion system (being semi-autonomous and so capable of
overwhelming consciousness and reason) can 'hang' emotions as answers
applicable to some current situation. For the full details see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html

This is 'prototype' stuff and at time one can 'see it coming' but it does
appear to bring out what is being covered the emotions and the 'unconscious'
etc etc and so move us into considerations of issues of
projection/transference etc.

I will turn the above link into an explicit 'emotions' processing page but I
am still a touch concerned about the degree of revelation that can come with
this method - and so the IC 'guise' - so comments are welcome! ;-) ( I have
reports from a number where the result was showing their emotions 'at odds'
with their rational, conscious, interpretations of what was going on - but
when the results emerged they (a) immediately agreed it was 'right' and (b)
knew it was about inappropriate-at-this-time or taboo concepts)

Chris
-----------------------------
generic categories of meaning:
------------------------------
Objects bias (differentiating):
BLEND - wholeness, whole numbers
BOUND - partness, rational numbers
Relationships bias (integrating):
BOND - share space, irrational numbers
BIND - share time, imaginary numbers

From these come composites as reals, complex, quaternions, octonions. All
else follows....
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

So if - let's say - Peter uses me as a projection screen and sees his father in me and I'm exposed to this projecting repeatedly over time I might start to feel an overwhelming and unexplainable adoration for Peter? Is that what you are saying?

I don't remember that something like that has ever happened to me. If it had happened I would remember it because I never repress or censor anything. Hey, come on!
So this can only mean that nobody projects things on me, at least not repeatedly over a longer period of time. Which is fine, I don't like to be a screen.

martin said:

So if - let's say - Peter uses me as a projection screen and sees his father in me and I'm exposed to this projecting repeatedly over time I might start to feel an overwhelming and unexplainable adoration for Peter? Is that what you are saying?

I don't remember that something like that has ever happened to me. If it had happened I would remember it because I never repress or censor anything. Hey, come on!
So this can only mean that nobody projects things on me, at least not repeatedly over a longer period of time. Which is fine, I don't like to be a screen.

Click to expand...

The issue is not the projection or transference. it is in the lack of history that can go with the transference.

In your everyday interactions history is exchanged with the emotion OR the moment is immediate, has no history other than the moment. ANY exchange with history will 'ground' the emotion - discharge it. Your interactions with Peter day-to-day can act to discharge any emotional highs/lows (a smile alone can do this) in that you know what the emotion is about OR you seek history ("Why are you looking me like that?")

In a transference with no history (unlike in a psychotherapy session where the intent alone is to identify/re-interpret history and transference is expected and so easily focused upon and delt with) there is no immediate discharge and the emotion can 'build' where it can suddenly 'take over' in seeking discharge, forcing consciousness to 'deal'
with it (consciousness being our mediating agent and so 'driven' to interpret, to find out 'why'?' etc and so give a history, a SEQUENCE of events applied to this 'holistic', parallel, expression.)

Familiy emotions have a specific context sucvh then when transferred to a stranger can lose their history and fester in that person. In that festering they are 'out of place' and that can become an issue and disturbing for the individual's psyche. This is expecially so if exposure to the emotion is through a look - we are highly sensitive to intepreting information through face recognition etc - our face is a canvas as such and is linked directly to emotions and resonance dynamics.

As social animals we have emotional links to others (read anything on Social Neuroscience

For an academic perspective see:

Cacioppo, J.T., Visser, P.S., & Picket, C.L (eds)(2006)"Social Neuroscience" MITP

For a popular summary of current material see:

Goleman, D., (2006)"Social Intelligence" Hutchinson (he is the author of "Emotional Intelligence")

For transference issues see such work as:

Jung,C.,(1969)"The Psychology of the Transference" Princeton
).

These emotional links work as neurons do in the form of inhibiting or exciting others - we recruit others of the collective instinctively in dealing with a context. If these connections are not possible, be they broken or not developed due to current cultural biases, the emotion can still be there but it has no history to go with it and so is 'raw' in form and can be 'random' in expression - it lacks a local context link and so acts universally, unconditionally, and so ungrounded, raw, overwhelming (e.g. like 'blind panic' in its intensity - or like infant emotions)

Transferences can be REALLY disturbing since you are carrying around a specialist emotion WITHOUT the history that specialises that emotion - it is not 'your' emotion and a lack of history makes it VERY hard to discharge, to ground.

This emotion can come out of repeated exposure to some context (bad vibes/good vibes etc) or narrow it down to a particular person or social dynamic. Our species side is VERY sensitive to small changes introduced to some context and can allow for paranoia to suddenly emerge 'for no reason' if a difference is introduced into a sameness.

If the emotion becomes noticable by consciousness, starts to intrude on thoughts etc then it indicates a transference/history 'problem' and so a development neurosis - generalisations reflect neurosis where a universal takes over from a context-sensitive condition. Universals, being universals, are context insensitive. This can be useful but behaviourally can cause issues re trust etc ("trust no-one" X-files logo).

A situation neurosis is easly delt with by changing the context and then analysing the
neurosis to come up with better behaviours to deal with that context or later exposures to like contexts.

A character neurosis is more of an issue in that it covers personal issues related to anxiety and revolves around acceptance/rejection (fire/water), trust in self, trust in others etc. A person susceptable to neurosis is more 'responsive' to transference issues since they have a built-in dynamic in dealing with local-universal issues and so can resonate easily with 'out of place' emotions - they can be easily over-whelmed by these sorts of 'context-free' conditions - and so most empaths have a 'neurotic' edge ;-)

Chris.

When we reach for the IC due to some personal 'issue' we are seeking history to aid us in understanding an emotion; we are driven to seek a 'why'? - we do this since we are not capable, be it for social or personal reasons, to seek an answer for our question directly from whom it is associated - and this is often reflected in issues of trust - the more neurotic we are the more unconditional our emotions can be - we lack context sensitivity that is essential for 'correct' social interactions. That lack is reflected in anxiety issues where those issues can 'block' out instincts to ask questions, enquire, inquire etc and go on to block expressions of love, acceptance, rejection etc or show those expressions only in universal forms (and so overwhelming, raw, lack of context-sensitivity)

Universals are useful in understanding the GENERAL but can become an issue when applied to the PARTICULAR/SINGULAR when lacking local colouring that acts to 'ground' the universal in the local context.

This gets into IC access methodologies in that 'random' methods are like a projection/transference dynamic where WE supply the history to GROUND the hexagram - BUT if we take the hexagram 'as is' then we show 'issues' in that the hexagram comes as a context-insensitive form that we then apply to the context AS IF it IS sensitive. To BE sensitive it would have to reflect the interpreter's historic knowledge - and it does not.

Hexagrams represent universals onto which we project local conditions and so 'colour' them, personalise them. In that colouring we project our emotions and expect the IC to 'emote' back. Not so - BUT the Emotional IC material shows a method to access our emotions and get them to 'select' a hexagram for our consciousness to reflect upon, get more details on.

Chris.

Ah, I see now, similar messages all over the forum, this is part of your crusade against divination! But from a new angle - projection, transference, alien emotions, lack of context, etcetera.
Forget it, it doesn't work, you could as well try to convince people on a UFO site that UFO's don't exist!

But apart from that, yes, projection is an important topic. I think a course that covers projection, introjection and the like should be part of our basic education, like learning how to read, write and calculate. With more understanding of such mechanisms our relationships would be less confusing, we would have less conflicts and probably also less wars. Because people do project repressed material on others and then - unaware of what happens - attack the projection screen.

Now .. your "attacks" on divination are rather mild, but it seems that divination irritates you a bit, yes? And irritation is often an indication of projection. What we don't want to see or accept in ourselves irritates us in others.
So, if I may ask, what do you project on divination and diviners?

So, if I may ask, what do you project on divination and diviners?

Click to expand...

Well now, Martin, that's called teasing...!!

martin said:

... But apart from that, yes, projection is an important topic. I think a course that covers projection, introjection and the like should be part of our basic education, like learning how to read, write and calculate. With more understanding of such mechanisms our relationships would be less confusing, we would have less conflicts and probably also less wars. Because people do project repressed material on others and then - unaware of what happens - attack the projection screen.

Click to expand...

But in passive transference there is no 'repression' going on. A simple act of 'looking like X' can cause transference of the emotions associated with X onto someone and, over time, that someone will start to resonate the emotion - outside of their initial awareness/control. The emotion will 'sneak up' on you. This can span weeks/months of expose to the look, even for 5-10 minutes a day for only a few days of the week etc.

Transference dynamics in psychotherapy recognise the issues of transference with someone and an authorative figure but in constant interactions - with the passive form there is no interaction other than a look. What resonates is the emotion that comes into the face of the projector linking the projected to that emotion - but the perceiver of this only sees the emotion, no knowledge of the projection, limited/no contact through exchange of words.

The aurhorative figure can be a person or a thing, e.g. a book such as the Bible or I Ching or the Communist Manifesto; IOW the words in a book, the emotion contained, if repeated enough will elicit in the reader the emotion contained in the form of resonance alone but interpreted AS IF coming from the reader intentionally. This need not be so. Emotional resonace does exist, passive transference does exist and can do more damage then a known case of interactions over time eliciting transference.

The consciousness of the projectee will then try and interpret this emotion from a counter-transference position but it is here a 'false' position - all that is happening is resonance - as a drum skin will resonate to another instrument sounding the key to which that skin is tuned. The issues come with the lack of understanding of resonance and so consciousness doing its best to interpret from a position of ignorance - and so, through anthropomorphism etc we create meaning where there is none.

IDM clearly demonstrates the I Ching DOES work in reflecting reality and so in being a tool to divulge aspects of reality we fail to see, but not from a consistent 'random/miraculous' position.

When we reach for the IC to ask it questions we are seeking history, a reason for something - we need a sequence of some form to explain the intensity of emotions etc being experienced. Those emotions can be the result of a passive transference and so come with no history - which is why they are so intense; so overwhelming. In these states, even a little history, even if false, can aid in discharging the emotion. IOW what is returned from the use of 'divination' is a hexagram representing not necessarily the 'truth' but 'something' to relieve the suffering and so, with the suffering reduced, discharged, the assumption is it has all worked 'for real' and all will be 'fine'.

Moving to methods more fitting with what is going on 'for real' can aid one in making better judgements etc more consistently than using 'divination'. - The issue is that divination is easy, it is the lazy person's tool as it is the primitive's tool - the reactive, "I have no control but would like to understand" perspective. We now have better understanding and so can be more proactive in our reactivity ;-) - we can identify a situation and even determine approximately where it is going and if we want to be part of it or not - we can change the context if need be and so adapt in a proactive manner rather than a reactive manner (unless the latter is the 'best fit' for the situation).

Chris.

lightofreason said:

But in passive transference there is no 'repression' going on. A simple act of 'looking like X' can cause transference of the emotions associated with X onto someone and, over time, that someone will start to resonate the emotion - outside of their initial awareness/control. The emotion will 'sneak up' on you. This can span weeks/months of expose to the look, even for 5-10 minutes a day for only a few days of the week etc.

Click to expand...

The problem in that case is introjection. The receiver introjects the emotion and then it becomes an 'alien body' (Fremdkorper in German) in his system.
If this introjecting happens a lot it may indicate that the receiver is more or less out of touch with his own emotions. Because if you are in touch you will usually notice it if you pick up an alien emotion. You notice the discontinuity (suddenly you feel nervous with no apparent reason, for instance) and you may also sense that what you suddenly feel has a different quality. Picked up emotions of others are often different from your own emotions, like sounds that come from a different instrument. In your analogy, although your drum skin will resonate there is something odd about it that makes you suspect that it's not your drum that started the music but .. perhaps that violin accross the room who is looking at you?

martin said:

The problem in that case is introjection. The receiver introjects the transfered emotion and then it becomes an 'alien body' (Fremdkorper in German) in his system.
If this introjecting happens a lot it may indicate that the receiver is more or less out of touch with his own emotions. Because if you are in touch you will usually notice it if you pick up an alien emotion.

Click to expand...

Not to start with, especially if acquired passively. I think this gets into counter-transference issues where the interpretation of the overwhelming emotion is initially as being sourced 'within' - from the therapy perspective it is the therapist transference to the patient but the fact is it is more the 'resonance' being interpreted as if a feeling of the therapist when it is not derived from there intentionally. That said, there can be a susceptibility to such emotions that can add to the experience.

IOW the notion of counter-transference includes the interpretation of a resonance with being transference (and so intentional) when it is in fact just resonance, empathic dynamics interpreted as if derived from the psyche of the therapist/'authorative figure' etc.

Without any history it is hard to link the emotion to anything other than 'self' and so a conflict can develop between consciousness and the unconscious where consciousness says 'is this yours? It MUST be yours!' and the unconscious says 'nope! Not mine!'.

The advantage of knowing the dynamics of projection-transference-counter-transference aids in understanding what is going on, as does having a strong experience of such, but for most such knowledge is unavailable or hard to comprehend given a lack of training about the dynamics of emotions, mirror neurons, and resonance.

The Emotional I Ching material touches on the 'repression' dynamics where the material can sense what is being censored by consciousness/reason and in so doing shows the semi-autonomous nature of the emotion system. Thus we see how we can experience emotional resonance (which is what the EIC focuses on) and elicit 'conflict' between our feelings vs 'social norms' that demand some emotions being deemed as 'taboo' or 'inappropriate at this time' etc.

martin said:

You notice the discontinuity (suddenly you feel nervous with no apparent reason, for instance)

Click to expand...

a Lite version ... we are dealing here more with overwhelming emotions that 'take over' consciousness, demanding 'discharge' in the form of some history, some serial expression etc. This gets into passion overall and so covers issues of grief and well as agape etc. where there is a lack of reason in that the emotion demand discharge and yet our consciousness cannot find a 'best fit' interpretation at first (or for some, never, and so the emotion hangs around and influences life from then on)

Analyse the processes going on over the time of the experience and they reflect Kubler-Ross's steps of grieving from denial etc through to acceptance and 'moving on'.

See my page mapping this to the I Ching trigrams :

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/grief.html

Note that in these steps we can get 'stuck' in one of them for some time or even for the remainder of one's life if there is little/no debrief.

Chris.

lightofreason said:

a Lite version ... we are dealing here more with overwhelming emotions that 'take over' consciousness, demanding 'discharge' in the form of some history, some serial expression etc. This gets into passion overall and so covers issues of grief and well as agape etc. where there is a lack of reason in that the emotion demand discharge and yet our consciousness cannot find a 'best fit' interpretation at first (or for some, never, and so the emotion hangs around and influences life from then on)

Click to expand...

I think, based on my own experience and working with others, that the best way to deal with such emotions is to feel them. Of course this can be far from easy in some cases and tools may be needed to make it easier, but ultimately there is perhaps no other way. It seems that the emotions have to be experienced to be 'digested'.
The problem with looking for an explanation, a (hi)story to fit the emotion in, is that it can lead you away from the direct experience of the emotion. In other words, it can be a way to avoid that experience.
The same is true for release. Expressing an emotion (shout, cry, beat a cushion, whatever) can be helpful but the idea that things literally move out of your system when you 'express' them - well, I guess it's based on false analogous thinking?
Techniques that facilitate release, discharge, 'catharsis', have been quite popular in some psychotherapeutic circles (and spiritual ones too, see Rajneesh aka 'Bhagwan' and his 'dynamic meditation') but I think most therapists nowadays realize that it is not a cure for all and that it can in fact be counterproductive.

Feeling what you feel, not avoiding, not trying to escape into rationalisations, explanations (such as seeking a history to fit the emotion in) or blind release - it should be the easiest thing in the world. Animals and young children (at least if not heavily traumatised) do it and so process emotions very fast. The toddler shouts and cries one minute and the next minute it's laughing again.
Not feeling what you feel, avoiding the experience, is really quite a feat, it requires cognitive abilities that animals and young children simply don't have. They have no way to avoid their experience, apart from certain biological safety mechanisms. If pain becomes to intense the organism will automatically produce painkillers, for instance, or other stuff that causes it to black out.

People ask how to be more in contact with what they feel, or in general how to be more 'themselves', but being in touch with your feelings and being yourself is natural, automatic, it's part of our biology. So the question should rather be: how do you manage to be out of touch, how do you manage to be 'not yourself'?
As I said, it's really quite a feat. It seems we are sometimes too smart for own good.

martin said:

I think, based on my own experience and working with others, that the best way to deal with such emotions is to feel them. Of course this can be far from easy in some cases and tools may be needed to make it easier, but ultimately there is perhaps no other way. It seems that the emotions have to be experienced to be 'digested'.

Click to expand...

LOL! I think you may be missing the intensity of the emotions I am covering here in that the issue is on them being felt! The problem is they overwhelm due to there being no reason identifiable such that the intensity can cause the welling-up of the emotion to overpower consciousness and elicit uncontrolled expression - be it in anger/rage or floods of tears etc. This can occur 'at random' or with some subtle element in the context that sets it off, and all out of awareness of consciousness that can do little than monitor and over time try and control the intensity of the outbursts.

As the Emotional IC shows, our consciousness/reason acts to repress/suppress emotions but in severe states we can be overpowered. In less severe states we rationalise but still have a 'gut' feeling of something being amiss - and so the ability with the EIC to link to that 'gut' feeling.

Passive transference is akin to issues of 'death' etc or a break-up that comes suddenly, intensely, where the 'reasons why' are not understood and we seek that to give the emotion some meaning; some reason 'why?'

In the case of passive transference the cause could have moved on, be not part of one's life until the past is carefully analysed to find what or to whom the emotion associates with.

The DIRECT experience of the emotion is overwhelming due to no history - it is like the expression of an emotion by a child in that it is instinctive and can elicit nightmares etc due to the instinct dominating and consciousness trying to give it all meaning - the problem is that there is nothing immediate to which we can link what we are feeling, it all appears to come out of nowhere or else is an extreme response to some little stimulus and so indicative of 'more'.

It is like the expression of an emotion one has no experience with other than raw, child-like, expression. The main issue is that it is not sourced 'within' the individual, it stems from 'mindless' resonance and so has no meaning other than that associated with the source of the resonance - the other person/persons/objects/relationships etc - it is like the panic expressed in a crowd where no one knows the source or reason for it - if everyone is running one runs as well as the 'terror' starts to resonate in oneself.

Being social animals, the ability to turn and run when one of the collective sounds an alarm is 'instinctive' - we worry about what we are running from when we are safe enough to spend time worrying, analysing etc. With the development of consciousness so we reflect on these transferences and the really intense forms require 'diffusement' ASAP or else they will fester.

The main point here is one cannot afford to be overwhelmed by these sorts of events, as one cannot afford to experience grief etc for too long. If the emotion is not discharged then the 'monkey mind' steps in and we can develop severe neuroses, disabling in form, that can influence the rest of one's life.

Therapists deal with this need for 'debriefing' all of the time but usually it comes with some history - the issues are when it comes with none or with a limited association to the context around some person/event - "something about X pushes buttons" etc but that’s it. The intensity, the sudden welling-up etc requires some control but to be in control means to be knowledgeable about what is being controlled - and that is where the debriefing etc, and so the establishment of a history, helps.

Physiologically it is like a virus, a flu that takes over - or a sudden break-up - or 'hot flushes' etc etc etc IOW one is overwhelmed. With disease it is easy to recognise and take actions - or just get sleep, but with emotional transference we are dealing with here is a different ballgame in that the digestion of a 'foreign' emotion can be upsetting to one's physiology, emotional balance etc in that it is like having a cancer 'gnawing' at you due to its 'alien' nature - a nature felt by our emotions unless some history is given.

If we relate this to death and mourning, we cannot take 40 days off of our lives to deal with some transferred emotion! - and at least with mourning there is a history, reasons why, a lifetime of experiences etc to work through - with transference there is none to start with and without debriefing it will always be 'there'. Essential to that debriefing is in trying to identify the root cause, otherwise no matter what stories our imagination can come up with to ease the suffering, there is always a 'gap' that will, on occasion, cause the re-experiencing of that emotion as if 'out of nowhere' (or some subtle, unnoticeable element in a context sets it off, pushes one's button(s))

Chris.

lightofreason said:

LOL! I think you may be missing the intensity of the emotions I am covering here in that the issue is on them being felt!

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LOL? Is that an emotion? The thing is, if you manage to stay with a strong emotion and allow yourself to feel it - instead of trying to run away - you may discover that it is after all not so overpowering as it initially seemed to be. What creates havoc in our system is often not so much the emotion itself as the flight reaction which is based on the belief that we cannot deal with it. And this may be true in some cases, but we can deal with more than we think we can.

lightofreason said:

If we relate this to death and mourning, we cannot take 40 days off of our lives to deal with some transferred emotion!

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Same thing. As soon as you are able to make contact with the grief the process speeds up considerably. The issue with mourning is that it takes people so long before they finally make that contact. They get into all kinds of evasive maneuvers and keep postponing the inevitable. And then it may take years.
I'm not saying it is easy. It isn't. But if you are aware of your tendency to avoid feelings and try not to do it, if possible, without forcing yourself - that helps, it really helps.

Hi Chris,

"(8) Thus the particular response here will be in an overwhelming 'adoration'
for the original projector by the original projectee 'for no reason', as if
it has 'come out of nowhere' - the lack of history about the 'look', about
the projection, means the emotion is 'raw' and as such overwhelming."

This seems to be saying that it only takes one person to initiate adoration/love, and then the second person suddenly starts to adore/love the first. This doesn't happen always, does it? What about those cases where A adores B, but B doesn't react, and further, may even come to despise A. What's happening there?

martin said:

As soon as you are able to make contact with the grief the process speeds up considerably..

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But there is no contact - in passive transference the emotion is transferred but no history - IOW one finds the sensation of grief without anything to grieve about! The lack of history makes the emotion overwhelming, it lacks grounding, is in need of discharge. It has been picked up like one picks up flu - through social contact.

The passive form linked through a look allows for emotional resonance to develop over a period of time exposed to that look, registering it unconsciously until it starts to elicit resonance, comes to the attention of consciousess that then tries to deal with it by getting some history and so to make contact - but there is none, there is just pure emotion. THAT is stressful, fearful, when a dark emotion. A positive emotion can be wallowed-in but it too will 'demand' as history, need a debriefing session or two!

If someone looks at you with extreme sadness, projecting someone onto you (that you are not aware of) and bringing up the extreme sadness into the face, seeing that over time will elicit resonance - but not knowing what the sadness is about means we try to interpret (we are unable to approach the person to ask "why that look?" and we habituate to a level of unconscious registration). If the look is of grief and we have not had someone die or lost etc then the emotion is 'confusing' when there is no history and so no ability to get in contact with it other than through imagination and that includes interpreting the emotion as a 'warning' about someone about to die since there is no one around who has - for YOU. The fact is that someone HAS died for the projector but they dont see their face no consider you in their projecting and so you resonate 'mindlessly' and that leads to 'issues' ;-)

Chris.

pakua said:

...This seems to be saying that it only takes one person to initiate adoration/love, and then the second person suddenly starts to adore/love the first. This doesn't happen always, does it?

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it can do if the resonance is not questioned (Why are you looking at me like that?") - IOW if one does not get any history to go with the emotion-ladened look.

pakua said:

What about those cases where A adores B, but B doesn't react, and further, may even come to despise A. What's happening there?

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Depends on the interactions, the REASONS. The issue here is on the projection - A adores C; B looks like C and so when A sees B they immediately 'see' C and the associated emotions come onto the face of A and is seen by B. A does not see themselves do this, only B sees it, registers it, and if it goes on for some time will start to resonate. There is nothing to stop the resonance becoming the opposite of the original emotion as a result of B getting 'upset' with the look but unable to do anything about it other than sense it is some form of intrusion (and it IS). The intensity involved in the resonance can elicit an overwhelming negative in response to a positive - the line between joy and anger is thin in that they share the same general space and so it is easy to slide from one to the other.

If the emotion felt is positive that is fine if it is not so intense as to be disabling - then it becomes a problem in that the person cannot function normally. If the resonance elicit an opposite emotion that could elicit forcing the issue in contact etc but if the original cause has moved on, is no longer contactable etc then there is no history available other than imagination. Meet the cause again and one's reaction to them/it may be extreme and surprising to them since they have had no idea what went on!

Emotions such as lust or anger etc can be immediate in form, but grief and adoration demand an associated history and the issue with transference is with these forms of emotion where we dont get the history just the sudden emergence of the emotion due to 'passive' transference over weeks, months. We can suddenly be overwhelmed with grief, burst into tears, get depressed 'for no reason' due to our resonance with someoneelse's grief transfered as part of projection and a look on the projector's face. We are super-sensitive to emotions on faces and especially through the eyes but we also habituate easily and so it all gets unconscious.

Chris.

lightofreason said:

But there is no contact - in passive transference the emotion is transferred but no history - IOW one finds the sensation of grief without anything to grieve about!
Chris.

Click to expand...

Ah, I see, it's grief of somebody else. I misunderstood!
But now I'm beginning to wonder if you are not a bit too worried about such transferences. It can indeed be like a virus but on the emotional level there is something analogous to the immune system. If you are reasonably 'together' (not spaced out, not all over the place) this will work properly and protect you. So most of that stuff will not enter your system or have lost its intensity when it does.
Still, even if something comes 'in' (with full intensity) we can often make contact with it. Okay, it has no history, but that does not mean that you are lost. Although you can not explain it, not fit it in, you can feel it.
Well, I guess it does require some practise - start with less intense emotions and then gradually move on to the bigger nuts. And some nuts are maybe too big. Life sucks sometimes.

Enjoying this thread. Chris, fwiw, I find your writing style easier to follow these days. Love Martin’s counters too. Like two sides, equally important, telling a single story.

Perhaps I should emphasize this: you don't need a history to make contact with an emotion.

Hi Bruce!

Chris,

There’s something unrelated I’m discovering, and as a musician yourself I’m wondering if you find any correlation to what you’ve been discussing. Namely, a difference between 22 and 24 fret guitars when utilizing a pickup which sits beneath the second octave harmonic, on the 22 fret model. The 24th fret model obviously covers the second octave, or where it would be on the shorter 22 fret neck. Hence the richer harmonic content of the 22 fret design.

This idea of harmonics, does it coincide with projection and/or transference?

Hi Martin!

Chris, btw, I did catch the drum skin resonance analogy. What I’m wondering here is about more (and more?) complex harmonics. For example, are some people more harmonically complex than others, and what effects might that increase within emotional context? Or, do certain emotions reproduce harmonically more than others?

bruce, to cover both of your posts - the music aspect is in its association with, elicitation of, emotions. Resonance indicates the same (or close to) tuning and so susceptabilities can influence. IOW if you are sensitive to emotions of type X then you will resonate more than if you are not - thus parents etc can resonate to adoration etc easier than non-parents; mothers are more sensitive to the emotions of other children than non-mothers etc.

Our basic emotions are raw, three-note chords etc with sharp distinctions between emotional resonance to major vs minor keys. That said, we can also get this if our genetic-sourced social connections are 'broken' where the associated emotion is 'cut off' - this also reflects a form of transference but in reverse, there is none when there should be as a part of our social nature. These sorts of issues allow for 'random' emotional expressions in that the inhibitors are not present to regulate such emotional expressions.

Increased complexity and/or emotional experiences allows for experiencing more complex emotions (progressive rock etc vs simple pop rock)

The focus in the traditional IC on not being able to appreciate it if less than 50 covers the issues of emotional experiences. These days, through movies etc we can experience a lot more than in the past and so approach the IC sooner ;-)

Subtlty in emotional experiences allows for higher sensitity in emotions and so the ability to differentiate emotions better than others - and music can aid in this by eliciting emotions as part of the experimentation in playing/composition etc.

For comments etc on the brain as a high/low band filter see refs cited in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/general.html

The focus on harmonics gets into genetic diversity allowing for individuals to be born 'harmonically correct' as they can be born as a 'dischord'... but context decides on what is the 'best fit' - and so for some conditions the dischord position is better for survival (goth/chaos rock etc?) -it elicits 'resonance' easier... but with passive transference so a dischord nature can emerge out of 'nowhere' as it can in response to a particular context rather than individual.

Chris.

Thanks, Chris. Interesting pov. I didn't understand this however: "The focus in the traditional IC on not being able to appreciate it if less than 50 covers the issues of emotional experiences." 50 what?

bruce_g said:

Thanks, Chris. Interesting pov. I didn't understand this however: "The focus in the traditional IC on not being able to appreciate it if less than 50 covers the issues of emotional experiences." 50 what?

Click to expand...

years of age.

lightofreason said:

years of age.

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I don't understand. I'm guessing you're referring to Jung's or Confucius' pov, of not studying Yi until you're 50 or over? And that, because of enough memory to reference their emotions?

I don't remember what the IC or Confucius says about it (only that he seems to have said once that he would like to have 50 years more to study the IC, or something like that). But Jung believed that certain developments (such as what he called 'individuation') belong to the later stages of life. Not sure how strictly he related this to biological age though. Some people grow up fast and already have a lot of (emotional) life experience when they are 20. As to the IC, I think there a quite a few young people on this forum who have a deep appreciation of the IC, perhaps deeper than grumpy old men like me.

martin said:

I don't remember what the IC or Confucius says about it (only that he seems to have said once that he would like to have 50 years more to study the IC, or something like that). But Jung believed that certain developments (such as what he called 'individuation') belong to the later stages of life. Not sure how strictly he related this to biological age though. Some people grow up fast and already have a lot of (emotional) life experience when they are 20. As to the IC, I think there a quite a few young people on this forum who have a deep appreciation of the IC, perhaps deeper than grumpy old men like me.

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;-) - based on what is coming out of the XOR material there is a lot for us still to know... but one has to step out of 10 BC box to 'get it'. ;-)

Given the nature of passive transference, so when we reach for the book to tell us what is going on we are reaching for illusion in that there is nothing 'going on' other than a property of our collective nature, our social nature - mindless, 'accidental' emotional resonance. Being unaware of the transference one can go off into gaga-land. ;-) Divination can do that. OTOH being proactive, interrogating one's emotions rather than the realm of the random/miraculous, and understanding the dynamics of emotions (transference issues, 'censorship' dynamics as covered in the EIC etc) we can 'ground' things quicker.

Chris.

One path here is to go through the IC hexagrams in their emotion-representing forms and using XOR to add-in details. Thus emotions become formally recognised whereas due to lack of training we learn all about them in an ad hoc manner.

Sadness/grief maps to mountain. The proactive form then becomes discernment, we learn quality control from our suffering (with/from self-restraint comes discernment - 52) ... and that can include from transference issues.

The beginnings of 52, what it keeps starting with, coming back to, is described by analogy to 24-ness in the form of 22 - a facade, external appearences to draw attention away from the 'inside' - we can gloss over etc. (22 shares space with 36 where both deal with this 'hiding' of the inside - either by smothering (36) or by distraction (22)) - and so the 'keeping still', stoicness etc of mountain.

The source of nourishment of 52 is described by analogy to 59 - a focus on lifting the 'fog' - IOW we can 'get over it' and learn discernment from it.

The infrastructure is described by analogy to 36 with the generic focus on hiding, covering up, suppress, repress the 'light' where here the light is for the one now missed, now lost 'out there' but not forgotten 'in here'.

As such we have 59 'feeding' the infrastructure of 36 that leads to the beginning of 22. Here is the focus on putting on a face, a facade, be it a face of sadness or joy or stoicness, it is still a facade. However there is also the feature of being bland enough for others to project onto the face - the true emotion, suffering, is within.

Then comes the 'look' itself - from the outside 52 looks like 24 (with surprise comes fear, with enlightenment comes absolute trust in another/others) but on the inside it is all extreme in the form of 44 - the 'soothing' of persusion etc but in extreme form, seductive even (with cultivation come singlemindedness, with anticipation comes anger)

of interest is the 63-ness of 52 - 52s 'correct' sequence, source of closure, through sadness/grief and this is described by analogy to 42 - augmentation, we learn from our suffering and so rise above it.

etc etc etc

Chris.

But as the 11th command (or which was it?) says: thou shallt not play intellectual games with thy feelings!
No need to cut your head off, intellectual maps can be helpful (and fun too!), but if it was ever true that the map is not the territory ..
You learn more from 1 minute of real feeling than from 24 hours of thinking about feelings.