Memorizing Hexigram 17. Sui / Following

[rosada]

17. Sui / Following

The trigram Tui, the Joyous, whose attribute is gladness, is above; Chen, the Arousing, which has the attribute of movement is below. Joy in movement induces following. The Joyous is the youngest daughter, while the Arousing is the eldest son. An older man defers to a young girl and shows her consideration. By this he moves her to follow him.

[martin]

17. Venus (Lake) on top of Mars (Thunder).

A possible interpretation is that the Martial energy expresses itself in a Venusian way. Less direct and rough, more cooperative, adaptive, refined, perhaps artful, etcetera. The Martial tendency to 'fight' (*) will be less.
If there is conflict in the air the Venusian Mars will probably accept - and perhaps actively (Mars) seek - ways to bridge the differences.

One astrology program has for harmonious aspects of Mars and Venus: ".. brings a certain charisma and you seem to naturally draw people around you"
And "you are simply fun and pleasant to be around and that is why you attract so much attention"

It also mentions "sex appeal". Venus and Mars are both physical and related to the senses and to sexuality, where Mars represents passion and Venus more something like sensuality.
If men indeed come from Mars and women from Venus, Venus on top of Mars might literally mean ...

On the problematic side, there can be an overdose of sensuality/sexuality with this combination.
But traditional interpretation seems to focus more on sexuality (without being very explicit about it) in hexagram 54, the other Lake/Thunder combination.
Another potential problem is ambiguity: love (Venus)-hate (Mars). Traditionally also more a hex 54 issue?


* Astrology associates fight/flight with Mars(aggression)/Saturn(fear). Both planets rule the adrenal glands.
Translated to trigams that would be Thunder/Mountain.

IC+

17 Following
Believing
In a context of enlightenment we utilise intensity.

"SUI : come or go after; pursue, impelled to move; come after in inevitable sequence; move in the same direction, comply with what is ahead; follow a way or religion; according to, next, subsequent. The ideogram: go and fall, unavoidable movement" ERANOS p242

In the binary sequence hexagram 17 pairs with hexagram 25.
This pairing reflects the unconditional act of 'following' as compared to the conditional act of standing to assert one's perspective regardless of consequence.

In the binary sequence hexagram 17 opposes hexagram 18.
This pairing reflects differences in (a) developing a 'new' belief system (17) vs (b) correcting the 'errors' that can pop up in 'old' belief systems - errors resulting from neglect or outright corruption (18).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the THUNDER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 27, the focus upon hungering, 'opposes' hexagram 17, establishing a belief, someone/something to follow. More so, the exaggerated sense of finding a particular belief system (17) is reflected in a more balanced format through a focus on using discernment in ingesting 'brain food' (27).

In the traditional sequence hexagram 17 pairs with hexagram 18.
BELIEFS:

17 : belief - through establishing to follow; 17, following comes out of a context decribed by hexagram 12 - neutralising

18 : belief - through re-establish through correcting errors; 18, correcting comes out of a context described by hexagram 11 - balancing

In the traditional sequence hexagram 17 opposes hexagram 48.
The generic properties of hexagram 17 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 25 with the generic properties of hexagram 12.

Mixing the assertion of one's perspective free of considering consequences (25) with a focus on neutralising attacks of others upon faith (12) reflects the generic properties of hexagram 17.

Some spectrum info:

infrastructure, skeletal form, is described by analogy to hexagram 12 with its focus on supporting a faith/belief system. Here we find one to support.

Source of nourishment is described by analogy to hexagram 34 - being invigorated by some, seen to be, powerful source.

17 starts with, keeps coming back to, a state described by analogy to hexagram 45 - a congregation of faithful (and so for 17 an influence on the 'newbie')

Full spectrum summarised in the line positions section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofti...g/x011001.html

Chris.

[dobro]

"An older man defers to a young girl and shows her consideration. By this he moves her to follow him."

I think this is corn flakes. In my experience, young girls are very seldom moved to follow older men, no matter how much consideration is shown.

[rosada]

Not in romance maybe, but what about older brothers and adoring little sisters?

Corn flakes aren’t so bad.

Thunder is beneath lake. If the old guy has no thunder, then she won’t be moved, cuz he’s just another old guy. If he has thunder, she is “moved”, and will open to his influence.

One of the most obvious (and humorous) expressions I’ve seen of this metaphor for 17 is in watching Joseph Campbell lecture to an audience of young women. They are glued to his every word, enraptured through his acquired wisdom, knowledge and experience. He evokes their interest and attention, and they’re rarely late for his class. In a sense, he charms them to further themselves.

In contrast, the man and woman of 31 are both young; it is a peer relationship, more compatible for breeding.

In addition, re: Campbell example..

Going inside is seen not by falling asleep but by becoming quiet inside, giving their output a rest, and opening up to receive.

Another interesting feature of 17 is that, the one who receives then has more to give, and so the follower obtains a following. Maybe her children; for it’s doubtful her husband (peer) listens to her attentively, as does the older man. After all, where do you think his thunder comes from?

[frank_r]

17 is one of the 8 kwantum hexagrams. The path between the trigrams water is made with 17.
So to stay into the stream of life(water) and go with the flow is done by 17.

If you look to the duograms then there is from the bottum young yin, old yin, young yang,, old yang and young yin.
So at the places 1-3-5 they are all three young, on the outside yin, in the middle yang and on 2 - 4 there is old yin and yang.

Originally Posted by bruce_g

One of the most obvious (and humorous) expressions I’ve seen of this metaphor for 17 is in watching Joseph Campbell lecture to an audience of young women. They are glued to his every word, enraptured through his acquired wisdom, knowledge and experience. He evokes their interest and attention, and they’re rarely late for his class. In a sense, he charms them to further themselves.

The stability on the even places is done with the wisdom of the old and the creativity on the uneven places is done with the energy of the possibilties, the young ones.

Originally Posted by frank_r

The stability on the even places is done with the wisdom of the old and the creativity on the uneven places is done with the energy of the possibilties, the young ones.

I like that.

[rosada]

Thinking of the expression "Nature abhors a vacumn," perhaps the flow is that Thunder moves, and then the Lake pours in to the space now left vacant? Or would that be more the dynamic of 54 when Thunder is above Lake?