Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity? What is the measure of a Trigram - for example, is Heaven more similar to Tree because they both have two Yang lines, or more similar to Thunder because they both have a base Yang line? Is movement (that is, transition over time) represented moving upwards or moving downwards - I know Hexagrams are traditionally constructed upwards, but some things suggested downwards (the Thunder Trigram, for example)?

I hope somebody answers Crystal Blue's questions, because I want to know the answers too.

These trigrams are a bit of a mystery. Some authorities try to link them with the text of the Yi, but their explanations always sound like a kid trying to explain to teacher why school work isn't finished.

Does anybody actually use the trigrams?

I "grew up" using trigrams to decipher hexagrams. Nothing very complicated, just two natural elements interacting. As I understand it, it's debatable which came first, the hex or tri. Makes no difference to me which came first, it works.

lindsay said:

I hope somebody answers Crystal Blue's questions, because I want to know the answers too.

These trigrams are a bit of a mystery. Some authorities try to link them with the text of the Yi, but their explanations always sound like a kid trying to explain to teacher why school work isn't finished.

Does anybody actually use the trigrams?

Click to expand...

always ;-)

The method of derivation of hexagrams is by self-referencing. Each level in the process is usable to describe.

So we have:

yin/yang
digrams
trigrams
tetragrams
pentagrams
hexagrams
dodecagrams (what hexagrams with changing lines represent)

Due to the self-referencing it is possible to get a trigam to self-reference and so jump from trigrams to hexagrams, as self-referencing a hexagram jumps one to a dodecagram.

The trigram level is the first level that gives us 3 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension (the temporal dimension develops in tandem with the3rd spatial dimension - something not directly observable from a Cartesian coordinates perspective but easily identfiable in the IC (eight trigrams, two of which cover time issues - wind and thunder)

Interpreting from yin/yang is interpreting from a position of all other levels compressed into this one but doing so lacks differentiation and so muddles time/space, process/form. Each act of self-referencing differentiates details where the trigram level give us depth.

THEN we add symmetric, asymmetric, and anti-symmetric perspectives to give us more depth.

Imagine looking at the stars through naked-eye, binoculars, telescopes - it is all a matter of resolution power in that we are cutting the whole through making yin/yang distinctions and so moving from general to particular.

Chris.

crystal_blue said:

Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity?

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Why can't they be both? Sometimes the trigrams can seem more important than the whole hexagram. Sometimes it is the other way around. It is just how you (want to) look at it, and what choices you make.

What is the measure of a Trigram - for example, is Heaven more similar to Tree because they both have two Yang lines, or more similar to Thunder because they both have a base Yang line?

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This reminds me of discussions I often had with a friend of mine who passed away last year. He was a great Yijing practitioner. We often talked about which trigram fitted a certain object: a cat, for instance. Is a cat trigram Wind, because of his soft fur and gentle movements, or is a cat Thunder, because of its sharp claws and impulsive responses? Or is it more Mountain, because of its stubborn and inward nature? We could talk for hours about this. It teaches you a lot of how you can work with trigrams, but there is never a clear answer to these questions. A cat can be Wind AND Thunder AND Mountain. It all depends and situation and circumstances: what is the object related to? Heaven is more similar to Tree and more similar to Thunder.

Is movement (that is, transition over time) represented moving upwards or moving downwards - I know Hexagrams are traditionally constructed upwards, but some things suggested downwards (the Thunder Trigram, for example)?

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Ah, but traditionally thunder is regarded as something which rises up from the earth, releases its energy, and falls back to the earth. So the movement of Thunder is vertical, while that of Wind is horizontal. There is no time in these building blocks by itself, you can only see time when you have a comparison.

lindsay said:

Does anybody actually use the trigrams?

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I use them all the time, they are the basic foundation of any interpretation I make. Couldn't do without them.

Harmen.

lindsay said:

Does anybody actually use the trigrams?

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And I don't use them hardly at all. I concentrate of the meaning of the hexagram overall and the meaning of the individual lines within that context.

I do believe, however, that the people who constructed the Yi used trigram imagery in arriving at the meanings of at least some of the lines of at least some of the hexagrams. But I'm not convinced I need to know about that as long as I see the meanings of the individual lines and the overall meaning of the hexagram.

The only reason I mention my take on it is to show you that different people find different ways of working with the Yi. What works for you? That's the question.

Thanks for the responses.
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hmesker said:

Why can't they be both?

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I'm assuming they contradict at some point - for example, is Fire over Water a 'Fire' event then a 'Water' event, or a continuous process of oscillating Yin and Yang?

hmesker said:

This reminds me of discussions I often had with a friend of mine who passed away last year. He was a great Yijing practitioner. We often talked about which trigram fitted a certain object: a cat, for instance. Is a cat trigram Wind, because of his soft fur and gentle movements, or is a cat Thunder, because of its sharp claws and impulsive responses? Or is it more Mountain, because of its stubborn and inward nature? We could talk for hours about this. It teaches you a lot of how you can work with trigrams, but there is never a clear answer to these questions. A cat can be Wind AND Thunder AND Mountain. It all depends and situation and circumstances: what is the object related to? Heaven is more similar to Tree and more similar to Thunder.

Click to expand...

There's a difference between comparing abstract constructs to concrete things and abstract constructs to each other, namely, we can define them so as to remove contradictions.

hmesker said:

Ah, but traditionally thunder is regarded as something which rises up from the earth, releases its energy, and falls back to the earth. So the movement of Thunder is vertical, while that of Wind is horizontal. There is no time in these building blocks by itself, you can only see time when you have a comparison.

Click to expand...

Interesting...I still think time moves down, though - a burst of energy out of stillness for Thunder.

crystal_blue said:

I'm assuming they contradict at some point - for example, is Fire over Water a 'Fire' event then a 'Water' event, or a continuous process of oscillating Yin and Yang?

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the formation of digrams/trigrams/hexagrams etc is done bottom up, moving from the general to the particular. As such the next position up, be it line, pair, or triple etc is a 'refinement'. The lines represent QUALITIES and so each addition of a line is a refinement of the quality of meaning.

From a trigram perspective, the BOTTOM trigram is more general, the TOP more refined. (this is not covered too well in the traditional material ;-))

Since we move from bottom to top so we reflect context to text. Thus a fire base and a water top covers completion issues as a water base and fire top covers non completion (remain open etc)

Fire in lower - guidance.
Fire in upper - guidance doubled = setting a direction, an ideology etc.

Water in lower - containment.
Water in upper - containment doubled = control

If we focus on DIGRAMS then the precision is less and more focused on two dimensional perspectives and so a slice of reality, a moment. When we move from digrams to trigrams we bring out depth and so MUST bring out time (since we live in spacetime ;-))

The time trigrams are wind (cultivation, anticipation) and thunder (sudden, NOW etc).

Wind in LOWER = cultivation
Wind in UPPER = becoming influencial (cultivation doubled aka a rising wind)

Thunder in LOWER = enlightement (the sudden, shock, surprise etc)
Thunder in HIGHER = awareness (enlightenment doubled)

The discrete methodology operates in tandem to a wave methodology where we still bring out qualitative differences of lines - see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html

The lines are representations for qualities and as such bring out constructive/destructive interference patterns that serve as some unique identity. Thus the first three lines can be repeated in GENERAL meaning as long as there is a refinement aspect present. (again not covered too well in traditional material - that said there may be some hidden text buried somewhere written by so mystic!)

The above reflects how our brains operate through oscillation across yin/yang (and so there is your oscillations) but we have a BEGINNING, a GENERAL, a CONTEXT, and then refine from there (this beginning is in the form of our attention system focusing on 'some' particular context and then applying the filter of the I Ching to interpret)

With dodecagrams we have hexagrams atop hexagrams and so implicit in THAT is again refinements. We can see this at the hexagram level without adding lines through consideration of qualitative differences in an expression.

For example, hexagram 23 in its lowest form of expression, its most energy conserving can be labelled 'housekeeping'. In its medium expression it can be labelled 'pruning'. In its extreme expression it covers defending the last bastion of order in a decaying context and all run by some intense priest/priestess!

We can in fact map out the levels of intensity by analogy to a string of 64 hexagrams - and so the extreme of 23 is reflected in its opposite - 43 (and so the priest/priestess 'spreads the word' in attempts to stave off destruction etc)

The different forms of meaning are derived from differentiating how our brains deals with meaning, as scalars, as vectors, and as hierarchic forms. The traditional I Ching is but a sample of what we are dealing with ;-)

Chris.

lightofreason said:

the formation of digrams/trigrams/hexagrams etc is done bottom up, moving from the general to the particular. As such the next position up, be it line, pair, or triple etc is a 'refinement'. The lines represent QUALITIES and so each addition of a line is a refinement of the quality of meaning.

From a trigram perspective, the BOTTOM trigram is more general, the TOP more refined. (this is not covered too well in the traditional material ;-))

Click to expand...

Just because the Hexagram becomes more specific as more lines are added doesn't necessarily mean each successive line represents something less general - the specificity is an emergent property of the Hexagram as a whole.

crystal_blue said:

I'm assuming they contradict at some point

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Hmmm, that's Western thinking; in Chinese philosophy there is no need for such a contradiction - it can be both, depending on circumstances.

There's a difference between comparing abstract constructs to concrete things and abstract constructs to each other, namely, we can define them so as to remove contradictions.

Click to expand...

I think that definitions create contradictions, as definitions can never be 100% complete. And why should there be a difference between concrete things and abstract constructs?

Harmen.

crystal_blue said:

Just because the Hexagram becomes more specific as more lines are added doesn't necessarily mean each successive line represents something less general - the specificity is an emergent property of the Hexagram as a whole.

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Using the wave model, the lines represent frequencies used to sample. The base line covers an oscillation of 2cps, the second line 4cps etc to the top line that is 2^6 = 64 cps. ADD those up and you get a unique waveform that is the 'quality'. To then go beyond that I can set a hexagram as context and refine it through self-referencing in the form of applying recursion to itself and extracting its parts - which is what XOR does (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html - the ability to do this brings out the dynamics of self-referencing and symmetric perspectives (within which I try to identify/represent the asymmetric)

In our brains the derivation of detail moves from low frequency, AM bias (right hemisphere bias) to a high frequency, FM bias (left hemisphere bias). This AM/FM dynamic also operates front/back and surface/core to give us the crisp from the vague, the precise from the approximate.

See refs etc in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html

These patterns reflect the dynamics of the fovea/para-fovea of the eye and covers our strong adaptation to vision and from there to the more precise audition. That said, basic differentiating/integrating dynamics existed in our more primitive natures using smell, taste, touch.

Our brains have a focus on precision and identifying information utilising such. Thus the very generic nature is borderline consciousness and close to interpreting patterns of reality akin to fibonacci spirals. The more energy we put in (and so increase in sample rates) the squarer the spiral becomes - ultimately expressed as the square spiral of the binary sequence. Beyond this things get unstable and we move into the realm of complexity/chaos dynamics.

As such there is a window of 'stability' covering a ratio between 1.618 and 2.00, below 1.618 differentation is difficult, above 2.00 it is too much.

Thus yin/yang dynamics maximises bandwidth, makes clear differentiations, without becoming unstable - it lives close to a border, is high energy, but can elicit information on universal structures.

The benefit of the line representations is that they represent brain dynamics and brain dynamics reflect the internalisation of the dynamics of the universe - and so the ability to get the IC to 'resonate' with 'out there' and 'in here' ;-)

Chris.

to map all of this to meaning in our brains in the form of resonance, if I take sand and sprinkle it on a vibrating surface, each frequency will elicit a unique pattern in the sand. Now make neurons the sand and sensory information the frequencies....

As such I Ching hexagrams represent qualities that resonate 'in here'.

hmesker said:

Hmmm, that's Western thinking; in Chinese philosophy there is no need for such a contradiction - it can be both, depending on circumstances.

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The circumstances are then deliniated according to what factors?

hmesker said:

I think that definitions create contradictions, as definitions can never be 100% complete.

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I think it depends on the object being defined.

hmesker said:

And why should there be a difference between concrete things and abstract constructs?

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The former are self-preserving, the latter, sustained only by our minds.

crystal_blue said:

The circumstances are then deliniated according to what factors?

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Circumstances/situations are bounded by limited perception, by focussing.

I think it depends on the object being defined.

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So the object determines whether there is contradiction or not? Contradiction is a choice. Does water contradict fire? Does yin contradict yang? Some say they do, I dare to say they don't.

The former are self-preserving, the latter, sustained only by our minds.

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That's a choice, not a fact. Our mind creates concrete things, as well as abstract concepts. What's the difference?

Harmen.

crystal_blue said:

Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity?

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I also love working with trigrams. For me they are also essential to understand the situation in a broader sense. What already was pointed out, you can do both, working with the hexagram and trigrams.
When working with the trigrams you can see different new angles like the four trigrams starting from the bottum, in that way you see a proces in time.
And with using the trigrams you can also use the 5 element theorie, in that way you can see if they have other connections. in the Ko or sheng cycle for instance.

When I get a hexagram and use the trigrams I see many different ways to understand and feel the situation. It opens a new area of connections.

crystal_blue said:

I'm assuming they contradict at some point - for example, is Fire over Water a 'Fire' event then a 'Water' event, or a continuous process of oscillating Yin and Yang?

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In every yin is a little bit of yang, and vic versa. So why not both?

lightofreason said:

eight trigrams, two of which cover time issues - wind and thunder)

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In what way they cover time?

hmesker said:

Circumstances/situations are bounded by limited perception, by focussing.

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Focussing on what?

hmesker said:

So the object determines whether there is contradiction or not?

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No, the object determines whether it can be defined completely.

hmesker said:

Our mind creates concrete things, as well as abstract concepts.

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That our minds create our perceptions of concrete things doesn't necessarily mean it creates those concrete things, even if the seperateness of said concrete things is only a perception.

frank_r said:

When working with the trigrams you can see different new angles like the four trigrams starting from the bottum, in that way you see a proces in time.

Click to expand...

So you think time progresses upwards in a Hexagram?

frank_r said:

And with using the trigrams you can also use the 5 element theorie, in that way you can see if they have other connections. in the Ko or sheng cycle for instance.

Click to expand...

How can eight Trigrams correspond meaningfully to five Elements?

frank_r said:

In every yin is a little bit of yang, and vic versa. So why not both?

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It can represent both - the question then becomes which one manifests in a given situation.

frank_r said:

In what way they cover time?

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Representing a process in time, as you mention above.

crystal_blue said:

Focussing on what?

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Details, parts of the whole, trigrams or lines instead of hexagrams....

No, the object determines whether it can be defined completely.

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I think it is not the object but our perception of it which makes the definition. We can define an object, but when certain aspects of it are only later discovered, we might have to adjust our definition. So it is not the object, but how we perceive it.

That our minds create our perceptions of concrete things doesn't necessarily mean it creates those concrete things, even if the seperateness of said concrete things is only a perception.

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Ah, but I believe that our mind creates these concrete things, and that without mind there are no concrete things.....it is all about perception. Which brings us back to your first question: Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity? It depends on perception. There are no facts which define this.

Harmen.

crystal_blue said:

How can eight Trigrams correspond meaningfully to five Elements?

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easy:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icfive0.html

hmesker said:

Details, parts of the whole, trigrams or lines instead of hexagrams....

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And thus, what if those things contradict?

hmesker said:

I think it is not the object but our perception of it which makes the definition. We can define an object, but when certain aspects of it are only later discovered, we might have to adjust our definition. So it is not the object, but how we perceive it.

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Again, since abstract constructs are created artificially by the individual, there is no possibility of things being 'later discovered' - they are complete upon creation. Whether they correspond accurately to reality is another matter.

hmesker said:

Ah, but I believe that our mind creates these concrete things, and that without mind there are no concrete things.....it is all about perception.

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What creates the mind?

lightofreason said:

easy:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icfive0.html

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That seems to arbitrarily split three of the Elements in two.

crystal_blue said:

And thus, what if those things contradict?

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Contradiction is a choice. I never have contradiction between lines, trigrams, etc. It is just how you work with it. Contradiction is not a fact, as far as I'm concerned.

Again, since abstract constructs are created artificially by the individual, there is no possibility of things being 'later discovered' - they are complete upon creation. Whether they correspond accurately to reality is another matter.

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But I was talking about the definition of objects.

What creates the mind?

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Ah, a Basic Question. But does it matter?

Harmen.

hmesker said:

Contradiction is a choice. I never have contradiction between lines, trigrams, etc. It is just how you work with it. Contradiction is not a fact, as far as I'm concerned.

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It just seems like circular reasoning - you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance; you'd qualify the circumstance by focusing on the Trigrams and/or the Lines.

hmesker said:

But I was talking about the definition of objects.

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Abstract constructs are still objects.

hmesker said:

Ah, a Basic Question. But does it matter?

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Never mind.
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crystal_blue said:

It just seems like circular reasoning - you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance; you'd qualify the circumstance by focusing on the Trigrams and/or the Lines.

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You say 'you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance', but there is not necessarily an 'or', it can also be 'and'. Still a matter of perception.

Abstract constructs are still objects.

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Indeed. As such, there is no difference between them.

Harmen.

crystal_blue said:

So you think time progresses upwards in a Hexagram? .

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Yes, depends on the question but if there is a time aspect in the question I do.
When I have a question like I asked yesterday: What can I expect working in my practice the first couple of weeks. I got 41 changing line 2 and 6 into 24.
The proces in time is then lake, thunder ,earth and mountain. So I will go through a proces of these four trigrams.

crystal_blue said:

How can eight Trigrams correspond meaningfully to five Elements? .

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In the example above. 41 Is metal, wood, earth and earth. And with the changing lines, 24 is wood and for the rest earth.

From the inside, the bottum there are a lot of feelings(metal), this can give a new start to something(wood), then I have to be totally open to adjust to the idea(earth), before it will be my personal perspective(mountain- earth).

In the Ko cycle the metal is controling the wood, the wood is controling the earth.

crystal_blue said:

Representing a process in time, as you mention above.

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I asked this question because I was wondering why thunder and wind, both Wood had a connection with time, Wood is the only element in 5 phase theorie that is in balance. None of the others is. so I was curious why Chris made this connection with time.

hmesker said:

You say 'you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance', but there is not necessarily an 'or', it can also be 'and'. Still a matter of perception.

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Things cannot be both discrete and continuous under the same attribute - they can be under different attributes, that is, looking at them in different ways, but once again, how does one decide which way of looking at it is most beneficial?

hmesker said:

You Indeed. As such, there is no difference between them.

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An abstract construct is an object; it is not, however, a concrete object. Hence there is a difference.

frank_r said:

...Wood is the only element in 5 phase theorie that is in balance. None of the others is.

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Earth is commonly asserted as the 'balanced' Element - it is attributed to the 'changing of the seasons', for example, the 'fulcrum around which the other Elements rotate'.

crystal_blue said:

Things cannot be both discrete and continuous under the same attribute

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Oh yes, they can. But that is, again, dependend on perception.

[/quote]they can be under different attributes, that is, looking at them in different ways, but once again, how does one decide which way of looking at it is most beneficial?[/quote]

I do not think in therms of 'beneficial', I work with what I have. You can look at them at different angles, and all aspects, can be meaningful without contradiction. But maybe you can give a practical example in which you encountered an unresolveable contradiction?

An abstract construct is an object; it is not, however, a concrete object. Hence there is a difference.

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I beg to differ.

Harmen.

crystal_blue said:

Earth is commonly asserted as the 'balanced' Element - it is attributed to the 'changing of the seasons', for example, the 'fulcrum around which the other Elements rotate'.

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Looking to the trigrams of earth- earth and mountain, thee is only one yang line in mountain, in that way earth is opposite metal which has only one yin line in lake. So I meant earth as being one of the five elements.
And in a way you are right of course, but for me 'fulcrum around which the other Elements rotate' is more the 5 in the Lo Shu, the magical square.

hmesker said:

Oh yes, they can.

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One precludes the other, by definition - I cannot find an attribute to be simultaneously discrete and continuous according to the same standard.

hmesker said:

I do not think in therms of 'beneficial', I work with what I have. You can look at them at different angles, and all aspects, can be meaningful without contradiction. But maybe you can give a practical example in which you encountered an unresolveable contradiction?

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Again, analysing a situation according to the Hexagram 'Fire over Water' - is it that the situation is oscillating from one state to another and then back again, or that the situation is moving from a period of 'Fire' to a period of 'Water'.

hmesker said:

I beg to differ.

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Appeal to pity.
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