I'm confused about how to interpret this answer, and maybe you all can give some insights. I just got a new supervisor at work and I can tell already this isn't going to work. He's a real authoritarian, trying to climb the career ladder, full of himself, full of hot air, hired from the outside, same education as me but less experience...and he's trying to tell me how to do my job!!! I don't think so! I could stay at the job but be angry all the time, or try to look for a new job. This isn't my dream job anyway, although the money isn't bad. So here's what I got when I asked if I should look for a new job: 55(Great Abundance) with changing lines 1,2 and 4(all those changing lines always confuse me!) changing to 44(Coming To Meet).

Oh, I also asked what should my attitude toward him be, and got 23(Splitting Apart) with changing lines also 1,2 and 4, changing to 38(Opposition). I'm confused! Thanks for your help.

Laurie

Hex 55.1,2,4 suggests that you will be able to find a new job but in the beginning you will be faced with problems in your search, it may not be so easy but rest assured that you will get there in the end.

Hex 44 suggests that you have the talents, so you will be able to find employment.

Hex 23.1 suggests that this guy is growing stronger and is looking to push you down, he may even resort to underhand methods to achieve his goal.

Hex 23.2 says that he is already causing you distress, and there is no one available that can help you with the problem. So you must be extremely cautious as going up against him would bring only trouble upon yourself.

Hex 23.4 this guy is a danger to you.

Hex 38 when you work in such an atmosphere, and you cannot get on with him, you should not be rude or otherwise antagonist towards him because that will only make the situation worse. You will have to be real careful in how you deal with this guy, and to be very tolerant of his ways.

willowfox,

Thanks so much! You hit the nail on the head, it seems! It was so unclear to me what the I Ching was trying to say. I greatly appreciate your insightful response!

Laurie

I think there is a different way to interpret this divination, but I cannot demonstrate it or prove it. It is just a strong feeling I have. For that reason, I would encourage you not to make any changes just yet. Wait it out a while.

You asked if you should find another job, and you got Hexagram 55, Abundance. Basically, that is a very positive hexagram. In explaining what it means, the explanatory text seems to mostly repeat the word "abundance." But, to make correct interpretations of divinations, we need to figure in the full meanings of the hexagrams and moving lines, not just pick and choose what is easiest to understand. The text also explains for this hexagram that you should not be not sad, but to be like the sun at midday. It says that you can give light to the whole world. In The Image, it speaks of deciding lawsuits and carrying out punishments. The text in the following paragraph explains this to mean a clearing of the atmosphere. Clearing the atmosphere sounds like a reference to your current place of work, not to a future place of employment. In the part that encourages you not to be sad, it also sounds as though it is referring to your current place of work, not to a future place of employment.

In short, it seems to me that this divination is not answering your question about getting a new job, but is rather giving you advice on how to successfully handle things where you are.

The first moving line tells you that your having to work with your current supervisor should not be considered a mistake or anything wrong.

Moving line 2 tells of a wonderful condition in which you can see the polestars in the heavens above. It says that even if there is mistrust and hate in the beginning, you can turn things around through truth. This means that you will be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Moving line 4 basically says the same thing, but adds that you meet your supervisor, who is of like mind. This is telling you that you will be changing things around to your satisfaction in regard to your new supervisor. There will be a coming together of your two minds, in other words.

Your concluding hexagram is Hexagram 46, not 44. This hexagram explains that there will be enormous success through steady, even progress, just the way a tree grows.

In my view, the I Ching continues on in this way with your next divination. You start with Hexagram 23, Splitting Apart, which means ruin, decay. But, it also means, as conveyed in The Image, that, "Thus those above can insure their postion only by giving generously to those below." In the context of what we learned in your first divination, this has to mean that despite his current "ruining" of things, he will come around to giving generously of himself to you before too long. He will be nicely supportive of you, in other words.

On the other hand, the next three moving lines are all pretty ruinous, and I am not sure how they fit in. I'm going to skip ahead to the concluding hexagram, then come back to the moving lines.

Hexagram 38, Opposition, means misunderstandings. The text also explains the reason for the misunderstandings, saying that people's minds are not directed to common concerns. But, it says in The Judgment that there can be success in small matters.

All of this gives you a blueprint for how to handle and work with your new supervisor. You need to give him time to understand where you are coming from in terms of your expertise and responsibilities. Most new supervisors have a tendency to behave in the way he seems to be behaving right now. He wants to make a good impression on the people who feed him, his managers, and he also feels that everything will be under safe control if everyone does things according to his current understanding of how things work. He will not understand how things work until he has been there for a few months, but he will be finding that out later. So, that is what you need to understand about him. You need to cut him a little slack, in other words, and try not to take this on-the-job training of his personally. You must come to understand that he will in time develop a full understanding and appreciation of what you do and how you fit into things, but this will not occur right away. To help smooth things over, you should try to enlighten him on small things only. Bit by bit, even though some of it will temporarily continue to be frustrating for you, you will eventually triumph and have a really nice working relationship with this guy. There will be ups and downs, but eventual success is assured.

I'm going to use I Ching: The Book of Changes by Hua-Ching Ni to try to figure this out. I still do not understand how those three super-negative moving lines fit in, so I am going to use this other translation to give you a new reading. I am simply going to ask, "What were you trying to tell Laurie in that last divination?"

I got Hexagram 27 with no moving lines. The Ni explanation is a bit long, so I will quote you some relevant lines here and there to give you the idea. The name of this hexagram is Providing Nourishment. "In nourishment, one should seek the right nutrition and not be tempted by what others enjoy." "The upper trigram represents the nourishment you give to others; the lower trigram represents the nourishment you provide for yourself." "To be peaceful is to be supportive of yourself and others." "Thus, one should use restraint in eating, and care in speaking; be cautious of the inward and outward flow of energies." "The entire hexagram is about nourishment. Nourishment is obtained from quietude, healthy food, and inspiring speech. Providing high nourishment to all people brings high spiritual achievement."

Nothing ominous here. You are being told to work things out with your supervisor as the situation presents itself. This is the way you will nourish your situation.

What we have just witnessed is a total breakdown of the Wilhelm translation. That is one reason why I never use it. I don't use the Ni translation either, but this book was handiest. I was just involved in a move, and most of my I Ching books are still in unpacked boxes.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks so much for your very thought-provoking interpretation! Wow...now I'm really confused...I asked again last night about my job, and got Fellowhip With Others line 1 and 2, and Coming To Meet. Hmmm...this was immediately receiving Fellowship With Others as the 2nd hexagram when I asked about a potential love interest. The first hexagram was Revolution and line 6. I'm totally confused this morning!

Laurie

In situations such as you asked about, all oracles will tell the querents to change their environmental problems by first changing themselves within. No oracle will ever encourage the querent to physically flee the situation, not the kind of situation you are asking about. This is what your I Ching reading was telling you too, but it was telling you this in a rather convoluted way. I spent three hours on that divination last night trying to figure it out and put the pieces of the puzzle together in a coherent, meaningful way. Oracles should be much, much easier to use.

Fellowship with Men speaks of open, loving relationships. It speaks of successful relationships. Is says that only the superior man is able to unite the wills of all under heaven. To me, this seems to be saying that you will be creating unity not only between you and your new supervisor, but you will be making things smoother for the others as well. So far, all this seems to coincide flawlessly with the interpretation I provided for you last night.

Line 1 speaks of fellowship with men at the gate. This seems to be saying that you will start to make visible progress with your new supervisor right away.

Line 2 goes back to what I was telling you last night, that there will be ups and downs ahead. Overall, you will make steady, sound progress, but it will not all be smooth. Sometimes you will have only humiliation to show for your efforts.

This hexagram transmutes into Hexagram 44, Coming To Meet. This hexagram tells you to avoid something, and that by avoiding it, all other things will fall into place for you in an orderly fashion. Since you were originally asking about leaving the place, I think this is the thing that you should be avoiding. You should stay where you are, and by challenging your situation there, you will find yourself able to change lead into gold.

The Revolution with line 6, and concluding Hexagram 13, tell you that your current love interest will be replaced by another love interest, and this new love interest will work out quite well for you.

Over the course of the last fifteen years I have been working on an I Ching oracle of my own that I wanted to be easier and more meaningful to use than the others out there. Even though I used another oracle to guide me every step of the way, it still took me fifteen years to create an I Ching that worked the way I wanted it to. I will use that I Ching here to help you out. I will ask what you can expect by staying at your current place of employment and trying to straighten things out there. By the way, this I Ching in no way resembles the traditional I Ching.

You got Hexagram 3, which means, "Things happen with lightning speed." This coincides with the information above about meeting him at the gate, that something important happens right away.

You got two moving lines, the first of which was moving line 3. Moving line 3 says, "Thoroughness is the key." In other words, you will need to do your homework and get all your facts and information together in whatever you present to him.

You also got moving line 5, which says, "From the depths of your heart, you must accept the reality that others have the right to be, do, or have whatever they want." This means exactly what it says, that your supervisor has the right to do things his way, and the implication is that his way is not always going to be the wrong way. You need to adapt to that reality. You need to assume a more cooperative attitude with him, in other words.

Your divination concludes with Hexagram 36, which says, "A seeming restriction has the effect of guiding you in a more enlightened direction." This should not need much elaboration either. It means that you are not going to completely get your way when you have your meeting or conversation with this guy, and that this is a positive, productive development. The end result will be different from what you originally propose, but it will be an improvement over what you originally propose too.

This reading really clarifies the last one, the Wilhelm reading you did asking again about your job. As I pointed out, meeting at the gate coincides with something happening with lightning speed. Line 2 of that hexagram, which refers to being humiliated, obviously refers specifically to the upcoming meeting that takes place between you and your supervisor. It is not a general statement about your working conditions as it seemed to me when I first read it. The humiliation spoken of in the Wilhelm text, in light of my own I Ching divination, means that you will be slightly humiliated to find that there is truly a better way than the one you are going to propose during your meeting with this guy. Also in the Wilhelm divination you did, the thing to avoid obviously means your proposal taken as a whole, taken in its entirety. The compromise you reach in this situation, in reality, works out really well.

In the Wilhem text, none of this is totally clear, although one can pick up the general gist of the matter. In my I Ching, all the details are totally clear, easy to understand, and the reading as a whole requires virtually no intepretation at all. It's a piece of cake.

Jim

Hex 13.1 it says that there are a group of you working together for a common goal, the advancement of the company, so if you all work together then it will be fine.

Hex 13.2 says now there is trouble because certain people in the group are opposing the others, so your manager feels superior to you and is thus against you. Conflict unless a solution can be found.

Hex 44 is telling you to becareful because you are in a bad situation, the manager does not like you, so do not compromise yourself or allow him to have power over you, something has to be done. If you try and talk with him when he dislikes you then you will only cause harm fro yourself, you cannot negotiate with bad people.

All i can say Jim is the I Ching you call the I Ching has little if any resemblance to the I Ching I've come to know. Infact it isn't the I Ching at all is it but an 'oracle' you've made yourself loosely based on the I Ching ?

jimnammack said:

In situations such as you asked about, all oracles will tell the querents to change their environmental problems by first changing themselves within. No oracle will ever encourage the querent to physically flee the situation, not the kind of situation you are asking about. This is what your I Ching reading was telling you too, but it was telling you this in a rather convoluted way. I spent three hours on that divination last night trying to figure it out and put the pieces of the puzzle together in a coherent, meaningful way. Oracles should be much, much easier to use.

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Why do you think no oracle would ever advise fleeing a situation such as this - on occasion it might I think.

.

The Revolution with line 6, and concluding Hexagram 13, tell you that your current love interest will be replaced by another love interest, and this new love interest will work out quite well for you.

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hang on a minute why does line 6 mean a new love interest ? The querant isn't even asking about a new love interest ?

Over the course of the last fifteen years I have been working on an I Ching oracle of my own that I wanted to be easier and more meaningful to use than the others out there. Even though I used another oracle to guide me every step of the way, it still took me fifteen years to create an I Ching that worked the way I wanted it to. I will use that I Ching here to help you out. I will ask what you can expect by staying at your current place of employment and trying to straighten things out there. By the way, this I Ching in no way resembles the traditional I Ching.

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Aha well in my view this isn't the I Ching at all then but your own adapted oracle that does what you 'want it to do.'

You got Hexagram 3, which means, "Things happen with lightning speed." This coincides with the information above about meeting him at the gate, that something important happens right away.

You got two moving lines, the first of which was moving line 3. Moving line 3 says, "Thoroughness is the key." In other words, you will need to do your homework and get all your facts and information together in whatever you present to him.

You also got moving line 5, which says, "From the depths of your heart, you must accept the reality that others have the right to be, do, or have whatever they want." This means exactly what it says, that your supervisor has the right to do things his way, and the implication is that his way is not always going to be the wrong way. You need to adapt to that reality. You need to assume a more cooperative attitude with him, in other words.

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So in your oracle hex 3 means things happening with lightening speed, and line 5 means it is imperative to accept someone can treat you exactly as they wish ?? Well thats not the I Ching thats Jims view of the world according to Jims oracle - nothing wrong with that but this is a place to share I Ching readings . Why should Molaurie adapt to a bully ?

In the Wilhem text, none of this is totally clear, although one can pick up the general gist of the matter. In my I Ching, all the details are totally clear, easy to understand, and the reading as a whole requires virtually no intepretation at all. It's a piece of cake.

Jim

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You might think its a piece of cake but I can't see that it is the I Ching ? Granted we all have our own peculiar way of interpreting the Yi but with you I'm beginning to wonder
how your oracle relates to the I Ching ?

Oh BTW I'm not picking apart your post just to harass you, I'm trying to see where you are coming from with this. Maybe sometime you will share with us how you arrived at your version of the I Ching.

Trojan:

When people are in situations or problems that they can resolve by changing themselves within, that is what they will be advised to do through any oracle they use. If the problem is too far advanced and has accumulated too much energy on its own, then the querent will be advised to leave the situation. This, however, seems to happen only rarely.

The I Ching I use in no way resembles the traditional I Ching. It uses hexagrams of broken and solid lines, and moving lines, but the resemblance ends there. I just finished explaining how I came up with my own system in a post to Hexagon. You can read it there.

In Laurie's third post in this stream or thread, she mentioned doing a divination about a love interest of hers. And I responded.

Jim

This gets more interesting all the time. I guess anything goes: psychic and empathic readings, various astrologies, reconstructions..

What I'd like to see is the method used for each interpretation typed into the title of each post. At least that makes clear from where a reader gets their answer.

bruce_g said:

This gets more interesting all the time. I guess anything goes: psychic and empathic readings, various astrologies, reconstructions..

What I'd like to see is the method used for each interpretation typed into the title of each post. At least that makes clear from where a reader gets their answer.

Click to expand...

I'm very disapointed its going this way. I personally would like this forum to remain focused on the I Ching. I can go to any old site for a mish mash of psychics/fortune tellers and mystics. It seems a pity if people come here to find out about the I Ching and end up getting a load of predictions that have really nothing much to do with the I Ching at all. That seems a disservice to the Yi to me.

Trojan, oh, I understand exactly what you're saying, but sometimes you just have to go with change. Whether for better or worse, that's entirely subjective. But the focus sure moves away from IC divination as we know it.

Jim thankyou for answering my question. My comments are not meant maliciously to you I am merely being frank.

Sorta reminds me of the Tower of Babel - everyone speaking a different language. Even those of us who stick to Yi divination and study seem only seldom to agree on meanings and interpretations.

Someone comes for help in understanding, and they're hit with hugely diverse answers, and some spoken with such certainty and absolute authority... what is this new person supposed to make of all of it? Speaking strictly for myself, it feels pretty futile to offer help anymore unless it's one on one.

Discussion is another matter. This forum has lots of room for discussions of all kinds. There's always Open Space for anything OT. But as readings go, I think the only way work with how it is is to specify what oracle is being used. Then if someone reads through a different oracle, a sitter can better make distinctions between different interpretations. And so could anyone else who is interested.

Not to sound dramatic, but Yi readings which are done for oneself or one-on-one with another have a sacred quality. There's a sense of being in the presence of something very big and unfathomable.

But, what if there was a disagreeing voice or voices, playing in the background, while you and the one you are assisting are trying to make progress? That subtle sacred quality, that privateness and trust dissolves. That's how it is here, now. Other voices come in and break the "spell", so to speak.

To me it's very interesting, watching this self regulating process develop. But stagnation isn't interesting. I think as long as we keep it moving, it will find its own way.

You sound disappointed that someone should try to come up with an I Ching that gives improved divinations. I do not understand that disappointment. I think it is long overdue, actually.

New tarot card decks with unique picture designs are being created and presented to the public almost every day. As a result, much progress has been made in their utility, especially in the more relevant and useful ways that individual cards can be intepreted in readings. I think that is one of the reasons why, in the West, tarot card divining is at least twenty times more popular than the I Ching. Comparable progress is not being made with the I Ching. When U.S. Games publishes a new tarot card deck, I have never heard of anyone lamenting the Tower of Babel that tarot card divining has become. As a result of the innovative creativity that has occured in the last twenty years with the tarot, many new decks and many new and improved ways of interpreting those decks have been introduced. All this has made for very healthy growth and ever-increasing interest in the tarot by the general public.

I do lots of divinations every day, and over the last twenty years I have done close to one thousand readings for others. Based on that experience, I can tell you with 100 percent knowledge of what I am talking about that the I Ching version I now use gives far more useful and informative readings than any other kind of divinatory system I have ever used.

Until such time that you have made good use of my system and found it lacking, what is the basis of your current denunciation? That it dares to be different? There is no cosmic law decreeing we should never try to create a more useful I Ching. Everyday people are creating new automobiles, new toasters, new refrigerators, new styles of clothing, new ways of divining with playing cards, new house paint, new medical procedures, new ways of building houses, new everything. But you are saying that no one should ever try to create an improved I Ching?

Jim

Hi Jim,

I only have a moment so I'll be brief.

I have no problem at all with what you're doing, and the Babel comment wasn't directed to you specifically, it was directed at the turn this section of this forum has taken.

If I use bottle caps and tea leaves, and it works for me, that's nobody's business but mine. But if I divine in an IC forum using that method, I think others deserve to know.

bruce_g said:

.

Someone comes for help in understanding, and they're hit with hugely diverse answers, and some spoken with such certainty and absolute authority... what is this new person supposed to make of all of it? Speaking strictly for myself, it feels pretty futile to offer help anymore unless it's one on one.

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I'm one of these comfusted persons. I;m working on that ,but still is very diffucult to come to a conclusion.
how do you imagine this one to one communication . ? by PM ?

I think it is great when someone puts so much effort and enthusiasm into making an oracle. It must be interesting to see how it works. But I don't think you should call it an I Ching, because it isn't.

With a new Tarot deck it is different, that is still a Tarot, the basics are still the same. Images are added, like an interpretation of the Yi can also add images. But when the structure is changed, it should have its own name. It deserves to have a name.

LiSe

maremaria said:

I'm one of these comfusted persons. I;m working on that ,but still is very diffucult to come to a conclusion.
how do you imagine this one to one communication . ? by PM ?

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I don't have to imagine very hard.

When I see that someone is willing to work at understanding the Yi, and is willing to apply effort to change the things (most often in themselves) which causes their confusion, I'll make myself available for private readings, through IM, email, Clarity's IM system, phone or in person. But if someone continues reiterating the same matter, disguised with different words, I won't interpret.

I don't wish to detract away from Hilary's board, and I don't wish to make of myself a bin for people's problems. That happens too easily if I let it. So I'm selective for those reasons.

Well, I see my question has created quite a stir! Maybe all of my negative energy I'm carrying about with me due to the stress of my situation has leaked into the collective consciousness of this message board! As for me, i feel better now after having eaten a high-fat Burger King lunch, followed by sitting in my car in the shade for a while(it's 100 degrees today) and meditating...put it all in perspective. My mind has been eased that this situation will turn out okay, whatever the outcome is, and my task right now is to stay in the present moment and muster up as much gratitude as possible! Things could be so much worse!

I've only been consulting the i Ching for about a year, and I'm new at this. But it seems to me that we have our own intuitive wisdom and knowledge and somehow the I Ching interplays with syncronicity and brings that knowledge to the forefront of our consciousness in the answer we receive. So, asking for someone else's interpretation may not give us a very accurate answer. But in my case with the original question on this thread, i was indeed baffled.

Anyway...this, too, shall pass! And I appreciate you guys.

Laurie

Hi Laurie,

Naw, don’t blame yourself. It’s no biggie. A little renovation from time to time never hurt anything.

I hear you about the heat. It’s 113F here today, pretty normal for this time of year. Soon the monsoons come and the humidity soars. Uff! Grateful for air conditioning.

Just a comment from the “what it’s worth” file. Imo, it isn’t just how long someone has been doing IC readings, but how much they have learned and progressed during that time. I’ve been at it for over 40 years, but much of that time was admittedly spent rehashing old understandings of Wilhelm. The benefit of that was in observing the 64 changes cycling in my own life, which is a great teacher and all, but it didn’t expand my knowledge all that much. Through some fine people here I’ve learned a great more than I could have on my own. We may have our rough spots from time to time, but what group doesn’t?

About your reading (sorry about derailing your thread), 55 is abundance, but we both know that sitting under the midday sun can fry our brains. That’s part of 55’s meaning, too. Sometimes it’s just too much brightness. Your lines look promising from here, as though either you or he or both of you come to your senses and see the light.

I think 44 represents, in this case, getting hot under the collar, trying to force your (or his) own will.

About your attitude toward him, 23 cuts away the chaff to get to the core, losing the unessential things, such as poor attitudes and whatnot. The lines indicate losing your resting place, which could mean your sense of security and rest. Sounds bad, but sometimes that’s what’s required before things can turn for the better.

38 obviously represents opposing views. If each of you can come to respect each other’s view, even if you don’t completely agree, retaining individuality just adds more to the talent pool.

If you keep your cool, things should pan out alright, according to how I read it.

Good luck with it.

jimnammack said:

In the Wilhem text, none of this is totally clear, although one can pick up the general gist of the matter. In my I Ching, all the details are totally clear, easy to understand, and the reading as a whole requires virtually no intepretation at all. It's a piece of cake.

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Call men old-fashioned but what is it with the drive to get everything on a plate as quickly as possible? I mean, geeze a little bit of effort to understand and learn is a good thing isn't it? Why does all have to be a "fast-food" dynamic?

Ah, this keeps echoing previous discussions on the path of least resistance etc. I won't go there again...maybe I'm just out of touch - I'm really beginning to wonder...

However, I think it's certainly true, what you are advocating here is I-Jim and nothing resembling the I Ching so I'm wondering why you're here? No offence mate, just a tad confused.

Topal

bruce_g said:

Trojan, oh, I understand exactly what you're saying, but sometimes you just have to go with change. Whether for better or worse, that's entirely subjective. But the focus sure moves away from IC divination as we know it.

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I don't think it's subjective if things go further and further away from the original principles of the I Ching and what it represents. If the forum became a sanctuary for all kinds of oracles which have little to do with the IC this would tend to become an objective fact with the quality of readings going down pretty quick. This would inevitably become "worse" due to the fact there is no way of knowing if "I-Jim" is much cop. He may be hot stuff but he doesn't have a minimum of five thousand years behind him. It's all good fun, sure. But if there's a kind proven methodology around a consensus regarding the I Ching - from what I can gather so far - and if this becomes diluted with oracles that have little to do with the original - weeeell. I don't know. I guess I'm an old curmudgeon when it comes to keeping things as pure as possible. (That doesn't include me unfortunately )

Topal

Topal, but not all newcomers are concerned about that, and for them the relaxing of tradition, being told their future, or what their ex boyfriend is thinking may be more important to them. So it is relative to what one is looking for from this forum. You have your values, I have mine, but we don't represent everyone, and definitely not Hilary. Ultimately, it isn't up to members to determine the rules of the forum. This isn't a democracy. I used to agonize over things like this, but I'm tired of arguing over it, fighting for what I think should be. People can pretty much say and do what they wish, including fighting for territorial rights, but the fact is, none of us but Hilary owns this territory.

There's changes in the works anyway - not that I'm privately privy to them - but I have a feeling it's gonna get interesting.

Before Hilary gets pelted with water balloons, just let me say, I think her hands off policy has made for some interesting experiences, which wouldn't have happened if there were stricter policies. Yi is about change, not about Yi.

And in all fairness, Hilary is a businesswoman. Newcomers and their wishes are important. I think we should respect that.

I'm down for another round, just to see where this is going.

bruce_g said:

Topal, but not all newcomers are concerned about that, and for them the relaxing of tradition, being told their future, or what their ex boyfriend is thinking may be more important to them. So it is relative to what one is looking for from this forum. You have your values, I have mine, but we don't represent everyone, and definitely not Hilary. Ultimately, it isn't up to members to determine the rules of the forum. This isn't a democracy. I used to agonize over things like this, but I'm tired of arguing over it, fighting for what I think should be. People can pretty much say and do what they wish, including fighting for territorial rights, but the fact is, none of us but Hilary owns this territory.

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The "relaxing of tradition" or the corrupting of it? It can be a very slippery slope where we end up with chaos and more muddying of the waters. I guess it depends on what kind of forum this is. It's a tricky balance and I do understand what you say - no one can police it, unless of course their is some form of pointed moderation. But what singles this out from other forums is that it is about the Yi as a template for change and that there is a quality or integrity that I think is worth preserving. I just wonder where one draws the line? I think sometimes lines are very necessary - bit of a Hex 60 moment I guess. Need to think more on it. But I'd be interested to hear what Hilary thinks on this.

Topal

I am in 100% agreement with Topal. If any old oracle is used here then this isn't an I Ching forum - at least not the friends area.

I find it pretty painful to watch seekers of knowledge about the Yi being fed this stuff.
Nothing is going to be done about it - our views are clearly not important so theres no point even discussing it.

No point discussing it, can shout about it though