Please....help with 38.3

jross · Feb 9, 2006

Dear friends,

A few weeks ago I posted a question about a relationship problem I was having and was given some very constructive feedback. Thank you to all who contributed their thoughts.

My original question was about an ex-boyfriend who I ended it with because he was unable to commit 100% to me and our relationship ? I had been with him nearly 10 months and it had been a rather turbulent affair. Both of us were nursing broken hearts from previous relationships where we had been hurt badly. It was certainly a case of bad timing ? he did not want our relationship to end. However, I thought it best at the time for us both. The relationship finished in late August,/early September and I am still unable to move on. I am very much in love with him and he is seems to be unable to move on too,. We are not together but when we meet up we always end up in bed together. I suggested we get back together, but he says he doesn?t know what he wants anymore. Is this because I have hurt him? I cannot explain it, but there is an unbelievable pull there and I am convinced this has nothing to do with sex. Perhaps I am wrong ? maybe it?s an obsession I have, but I can?t get rid of the feeling that he is indeed ?The One?. I keep thinking we will get back together. I asked the I Ching when we first split if he was going to want me back and it came up with 8 (Holding Together) with changes at 4 and 5. I just assumed that we would get back together, but not until we were further along in our lives or is he just using me because he has no-one else. This whole thing is making me sick and destroying my life, as I just want us to work things out.

So, last night I threw the coins again and asked it if he did indeed love me and was he the One. It came up with 38 (Opposition) changing at 38.3 ? can anyone give me a reading on this. I see it as we both have differences right now, but further down the line we will eventually work them out and return to one another. I cannot bear to be hurt anymore. Am deluding myself or is it that I don?t want to see the truth and there is no future between us. Please help me and honesty is always the best policy.

Thank you kindly.

Minnie

bradford_h · Feb 9, 2006

Sorry Minnie, but the only thing clearer than 38.3 here is how much you don't want to look at it. I'm sure someone here will be newage enough to turn this around for you and make it all sweetness and light, but my advice is: Turn your little wagon around and go down a different road.

dobro · Feb 9, 2006

Hi Minnie. I'm thinking that there are two things you might usefully hear from me.

The first is that in answer to your question, the Yi's telling you this: the whole situation has come to a screeching halt, it involves some humiliation of some sort, and you can't bring it to an end right away. He ain't the one, in other words.

Also, this -

"I cannot explain it, but there is an unbelievable pull there and I am convinced this has nothing to do with sex. Perhaps I am wrong ? maybe it?s an obsession I have, but I can?t get rid of the feeling that he is indeed ?The One?."

I believe you - I believe there's an unbelievable pull, and I believe that you feel he's the one. But just because those feelings are happening doesn't mean it's good for you. People get attracted to other people all the time. Sometimes it's good and it fits; sometimes it's bad and people are attracted to the wrong person - it happens every day.

But it's your call whether you believe the Yi or whether you believe the strong feelings you're experiencing. Sometimes a person gives a feeling more credence because it's strong. Not me. Strong feelings just make me feel more out of control than I usually am lol. If I'd given in to every feeling of strong attraction I've had, I would have lost my job and my wife long ago.

bruce · Feb 9, 2006

Hi Minnie,

I'm not in agreement with either Brad or Dobro on this one.

38.3 is not a picture of how things are but how they appear to be. 38 itself speaks to individualism, and line 3 shows the sense of being at odds with how it all looks to you, as though there?s a conspiracy working against your freedom of movement. From this perspective it appears frustrating and nearly hopeless.

However, 38.3 changes to 14, and that indicates much reason for optimism.

My suggestion is, stop trying to make sense of this thing and follow your heart.

bradford_h · Feb 9, 2006

Did I predict that, or what?

dobro · Feb 9, 2006

I thought of that 'follow your heart' thing, and that's why I talked about feelings that you follow at your peril.

I'm gonna call you on this one as well.

"38.3 is not a picture of how things are but how they appear to be."

Huh? The whole reason for using the Yi is to get beyond appearances to the reality behind the appearances. If all we want to know is the appearance of things, then we've got that already - all we have to do is open our eyes and look, and we get fooled. Constantly, repeatedly. So you're saying that in order to know what's going on here, we consult the Yi and it tells us how things *appear* to be? I don't buy it.

"However, 38.3 changes to 14, and that indicates much reason for optimism."

Well yeah, it changes to 14, but you're ignoring all the warning signs in 38.3. It's a really crummy line in terms of moving ahead with any kind of project at all. This oracle work is tough enough without ignoring what *is* obvious.

Finally, you are not the thoughts you're putting into this thread. I'm taking issue with what you're saying, not with you.

bruce · Feb 9, 2006

Brad, since when have I become ?new-age?? No, you didn't call anything but your own point of view.

Dobro, on how it appears:

Bradford?s translation: ?Seeing? a wagon held up - Its oxen restrained

LiSe?s translation: ?Seeing? the cart dragged, one's oxen pulled, one's people with bent head and cut off nose.

Wilhelm?s Translation: One ?sees? the wagon dragged back, the oxen halted.

Richer?s translation: You ?SEE? a CART PULLED along, DRAWN by an OX.

Legge?s translation: We ?see? one whose carriage is dragged back, while the oxen in it are pushed back, and he is himself subjected to the shaving of his head and the cutting off of his nose.

This "seeing" leads me to the understanding that this is how the situation appears to be to one receiving this line. It's also how I have personally experienced the line.

bruce · Feb 9, 2006

Let?s get into a couple of commentaries, shall we?

Wilhelm: Often it ?seems? to a man as though everything were conspiring against him. He ?sees? himself checked and hindered in his progress, insulted and dishonored. However, ?he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs (namely, him/herself, ie: follow your own heart). Thus, notwithstanding the bad beginning, the matter will end well.

LiSe: All people are different. One can make an issue of it, a straight discussion, and in the end someone will be injured. One can make a lighthearted repartee and it will be a mutual pleasure. The same starting point, but ?the outcome depends on the road one chooses? (hence my follow your heart), the road of being put in the right ?or the road of interesting exchange.?

Guess I?m in decent ?new age? company.

frank · Feb 9, 2006

Hi guys,

Looking at the literal translation of 38.3 I see this:

"Catch the sight of a carriage dragged.
Its oxen pulled.
Its Human Gods temporarly the nose cut off.
No beginning. There is completion."

The word 'jian' is about seeing, or catching side of... acording to Wen Lin, a computerprogram witch hold a Chinese / English dictionary and a translation of the I Ching (among other things). By clicking on the Chinese character you get a english translation of that character...

The word 'Qi' can mean 'his', 'hers', 'its', 'their', etc... so perhaps you are the one who is pulling the oxen, and you cath side of the carriage behind you and see that it is being dragged... You have a lot of weight with you?

The word Qie wich is usualy translated as shaven head, in Wen Lin is translated as 'for the time being, temporarly'... so you lose a nose only for a matter of time?

The words 'Ren Tian' together, acording to Wen Lin mean 'Humans in Heaven, Devas in Buddism', so NOT you, but your spiritual guides are TEMPORARLY taken the nose off..??? How could a Human God loose his or her nose temporarly? Well hellooooo, they are gods yes, and can put the damn thing back on the face, but what does it mean :-D?

Well, at least this line, after it changes, goes to hexagram 14... You do not need Human Gods, you have great possesions yourself...

Is the Yi saying that you can trust yourself and your own strengh in this? Do not search outside you, but go inside, and share it?

Does that make some sense?

Hug,
Frank

martin · Feb 9, 2006

Hmm, the Legge translation of this line also says "there is no good beginning, but there will be a good end".
Not sure if this should be interpreted as a good auspice for the relationship in the long run, though. It could of course only mean that the questioner will be okay, with or without her partner.

But, whatever one reads in this line, I think it's anyway not a good idea to base important long term decisions in love relationships on an IC reading.
The heart is fluid and tomorrow or next week things might be very different.

bradford_h · Feb 9, 2006

And if you can learn from "seeing" and not go down that road yourself, that's how you make a good ending out of a bad beginning. You don't need to get your own personal head shaved and tattooed. 38.3 actually happened to me once. I had my head (memory) permanently tattooed with the image of my girlfriend getting gang-raped while two really large men held knives at my throat. I wish I could have "seen" it coming and not taken her down that road unarmed. Vicarious trial and error is probably the ultimate use of a neocortex.

bruce · Feb 9, 2006

Brad,

You know that I respect you and the work you do. No question there. I?ve read your commentary of 38.3, and see that your view of this line differs from most other translator commentaries. Your last comments here substantiate that fact. You may be right. But it?s not how I see it at this point. If I never read any commentaries on this line, and based its meaning purely on my own subjective experience with it, I?d have reached my same conclusions. However, most other commentaries do seem to agree with my views on it. That doesn?t make it right, but it doesn?t make it wrong, either. Hopefully these discussions can help us all to understand more clearly.

On Martin?s comments, I agree, more all the time.

The most difficult thing in interpreting for others, to me, is getting them to see past the ?do and don?t/good and bad? of Yi?s answers. Yes, of course there are some obvious ?this is a wiser choice than that? answers, but at least as often the answers pertain to our own condition and state of mind.

Once that?s ?tuned in?, the choices we make are likely to be the answers the Yi gives us. So I should probably alter my ?follow your heart? to ?follow your heart once your mind has calmed and you?ve thought this through.? Then the answer to our clear and direct question can be seen. Until then, we're playing a dangerous game of 'tell me what to do'.

bruce · Feb 9, 2006

Brad, I'm truly sorry to hear of that awful experience. My own pov is that you would have been better served with a CCW and a 45acp than a copy of I Ching.

luz · Feb 10, 2006

I knew this was going to be an interesting thread.. I giggled at the sight of a little red wagon coming to a screeching halt and looking for a new road.. I waited patiently for the new age guru to show up (just kidding, Bruce!!!

).. fluid hearts!! wow!!!

)

But my real interest lays in the question: can it be that virtually ANY READING can be interpreted in opposite ways by different people?? Can it be that all hexagrams and all lines can fit not only any situation but also any outcome, any interpretation???? I think so.

But then, what makes them valuable then? that which we call intuition? I believe in this intuition thing very much.. and I also believe that it doesn't have to be personal, that when somebody does a reading for somebody else or chips in in the forum to answer a question, it's because something resonated in them with this question, this querent.. I really believe that when one of you speaks up it's because something clicked inside and not because you have preconceived notions of what a line or a hexagram are about.. or because you just come and paraphrase one of your books. Well, at least I hope it works that way because otherwise, there is really no way to know for sure what the Yi is saying..

Now, for Minnie's sake, what is the consensus?? Which way should the little red wagon go??

bruce · Feb 10, 2006

Angel, I'd have shown up earlier but was busy with aroma therapy, and my guides told me to meditate on positive affirmations: I am wonderful. I love myself. I CAN do it. Etc.

lol

micheline · Feb 10, 2006

So, whether the reading is a positive omen for the future of the relationship or not, the question is what do you do with this reading from the Yi?

Do you "take heart" and believing all will be well, go on doing what you've been doing with him...sleeping with him and hoping for the best?

Instead, you might back off from this path!! Seeing the results of your current behavior, you back off, holding on to your dignity and your vision of what you REALLY want from him. That vision is not in alignment with his view of things now, so get your nose out of his face.

Back off, believing that what you want IS perhaps a real possibility with him, but not if you continue on the path of being led by his uncertainty and halting commitment.

Your own dignity is your 14. Hold on to it, believing you are worth more than a tumble in the hay . Stick to your principles.

he may in fact come around, yet. BUt for now, use your common sense about whats been going on, and be true and fair to yourself.

lightofdarkness · Feb 10, 2006

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"can it be that virtually ANY READING can be interpreted in opposite ways by different people?? Can it be that all hexagrams and all lines can fit not only any situation but also any outcome, any interpretation???? I think so."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Sort of....All hexagrams/lines have core qualities that are GENERAL and so prior to colouring with emotions but are distinct from others. Earth to one is 'devotion to another/others' and reflects properties of the female. Earth to others is total, absolute, darkness and an agent of fear. BOTH of these interpretations reflect the ONE general quality of 'contractive blending' - issues of wholeness etc by drawing something 'in'.

LOCAL context, and that includes the personal experiences of each individual, will 'colour' the general, the universal, and in doing so make it appear as if we are dealing with 'opposite' interpretations since our conscious focus is so local and so focused upon expressions.

.... oh, and the ICPlus comment for the traditional 38.3 is:

"Despite having one's possessions taken and one's self physically injured, things eventually change."

The issue then is if the current context will change or else one needs to move on to a different context. It is the context that will push one's buttons and unless one is prepared to put in the energy to assert their own context 'over' the current then a respite may be necessary to recover, refine one's skills etc, prior to going back into that context.

THAT said, there is no guarantee that 38.3 is the 'best fit' hexagram so the questioning approach may add more information.

Chris.

jesed · Feb 10, 2006

Hi Minnie

I'll try not to proyect over you my own perspectives about relationships (neither "keep going" nor "get away").

I'll try only talk about what I know a little: Yi Jing

Clearest state of mine give clearest insight (as Bruce had said)
Clearest questions give clearest answers
Clarify our's own path is better to look how other's path affect us (of course, that doesn't means that one never ask about how others affect us)

I wouldn't recomend anybody to ask "was X the One?"
I would suggest, because I had find this helps better, look at yourself:

1.- Global Diagnosis of my Time
2.- General diagnosis of my sentimental time
3.- Diagnosis of my concrete situation related to X
4.- Causes and future effects of my situation related to X
5.- What is the wiser thing to do in order to improve my sentimental life?

One of the things that Yi Jing teaches is that some times, suffering a lost brings a renewal of the personal Path. Hope it could be your case this time

Best wishes}

dobro · Feb 10, 2006

Bruce -

You ignored both the points I made, and instead outlined your interpretation of what 'see' means in the Yi. You said:

"This "seeing" leads me to the understanding that this is how the situation appears to be to one receiving this line. It's also how I have personally experienced the line."

I'd like to suggest to you that 'see' in the Yi means 'witness' or 'experience'. I'd also like to suggest to you that 'see' does not mean 'appear' in the Yi. Why? Well, take 1.2 and 1.5, for example, where it talks of 'seeing the great person'. It means to witness them, experience their presence and being; it doesn't have anything to do with the way a great person appears. See, the Yi isn't concerned with appearances; it's concerned with realities. And if you check all the other instances of 'see' in the Yi, they make much more sense if you interpret them the way I have (with the possible exception of 4.3). As for your interpretation of 'see' arising out of your experience, I can't take issue with that.

I haven't ignored what you've said; I've addressed it. That's how I see it.

Are we communicating yet?

matt · Feb 10, 2006

But Dobra, 'appearances' are very important in the context Bruce used it in. As far as I understood it, he meant that it would be advised to re-visualise the situation. Thought is a powerful tool, we create our own realities through it. If we visualise despair and lack of hope in a situation, then this is invariably how it will manifest in reality. Human expectation has a HUGE impact on all around us, even Science deomonstrates this with their 'Placebo Effect'.

The Yi can indeed show how 'things are in reality' at the moment, but that does not mean we are slaves to the energies, and we have no power to transform them. I guess this concept can have it roots in how we all uniquely view the YI - as an external force, a friend, a higher power, a mathematical probability machine god thig with an IQ of 54 billion, or simply (as I see it) an extension of my self. Often when I ask Yi a question, it will be simpy stated "what am I not seeing in this situation", or "how are the energies moving in this situation". The resulting hexagrams will inform me of current processes, hidden or plain to see, but one thing I never do is accept that 'this is how my situation will be and there is nothing I can do about it'. The Yi is a guide, it certainly isnt my intuition, and as Bruce said, I will use the information provided to make a decision myself or follow my heart.

The moment you let the Yi make your decisions for you, then you immediately take away the very thing Yi is trying to grow in you - intuitive creativity - the power to create your own destiny. So often, the Yi shows us the 'pattern' of a situation, and when we become more aware of this pattern, we can then chose our own direction. Thats why the realm of appearances is a friend of Yi - If we are viewing a situation with despair and anxiety, then this IS a reality, its not just a delusional appearance. Our thoughts have created a situation of despair and hope, and if we just deny these feelings as delusion or non-truth, then they will never go away, they need acknowledgement/acceptance before they can be transformed into more productive energies/emotions. So the Yi would produce a hexagram relating to current state of mind, a hexagram that refelcts the reality we have created. And only then, when we have become aware of our reality can we change it - our own way - without rules or limitations. (And ideally with the wonder and awe of that little thing called heart)

dobro · Feb 10, 2006

Matt - I see a possibility that your idea of 'seeing' in the Yi might mean 'visualizing' here. So let's see what that means in the context of this thread's original question. The questioner was asking if the guy in her mind was 'the one'. Taking your meaning of seeing to mean visualising something, 38.3 would mean something like: "Visualize all the crummy images in 38.3 - there'll be an end to all this, but not in the beginning. That would mean that all the questioner's doubts will have strength in the beginning, but not later on. Fair enough. That would mean that the guy in question is the right one for the questioner. Eventually.

But even if the word 'see' meant to visualize something, that's still a way different meaning than 'appearance'. Appearance is how things appear; visualization is how we image things actively in our imagination. One is passive and deluded; the other is creative and instrumental. They're very different.

I'd really appreciate it if the questioner kept us informed as to whether the guy she's asking about turns about to be a good partner. It would settle some of the dust in this thread.

matt · Feb 10, 2006

There is no dust to settle apart from the dust you are kicking up with your lyrical dances. This isnt about who is right and who is wrong.

This hexagram can be applied to 'appearance' - because its polarisation. At one end of the polarisation stands a person viewing the outer world in opposition to them. And vice versa. From whichever side you look from, there 'appears' to be a polarised tension, although each tension is individually based, not collectively based. So there isnt a collectice truth, other than the truth of polarisation.

Hence I mentioned 're-visualising' the situation. The individual empowers their own approach, and the polarisation can be transformed. Appearnces can be deceptive, but thats the whole point Bruce was making - the appearance of the situation is deceptive. The reality of the situation is accept individual polarisation, see the whole picure, and then a way forward will appear. And I can understand Bruces jump to optimisitic transformation in the 14 hexagram.

I'm not offering my own interpretation on this reading, I'm just trying to clarify what I thought Bruces intentions were.

frank · Feb 10, 2006

Hi all, and especially for you Jross, as you asked the question,

As we look to the trigrams in 38 we see Li, Sun / Fire above, and Dui, Lake / Swamp below. An atribution of Fire is seeing... the eyes... looking... An atribution of Swamp is ?hindrance?, so probably the Yi is saying ?Look where you are going?... Fire makes things clear, because it shines bright... The swamp makes things misty, and you can?t see a bottom or your feed on the floor or what swims below you... So... See what you are doing vs not seeing what you are doing, THAT is the oposition the Yi is talking about?

Does the background towards your question, Jross have something to do with one of you looking and one of you not? One is blinded by a blindspot, and the other one is seeing things more clearly?

Perhaps 38 is just saying to you that although you see him as the one and the one to be attached to (Fire!), the REALITY is that you do not know for shure if he is... (Swamp!). Line 3 could be about your own actions in this, and especialy your inner thoughts about your own steps (line 3 is about thoughts about your own role, as a human / heaven line). So by seeing this (the carriage as your thoughts...?), you try to move on by the thoughts you think and the doubts you feel otherwise (oxen are stuborn animals :-D). There is no help from above (they do not smell the oxen... the nose cut off), so you are on your own... Hexagram 14 then shows that you are very well capable to just do that... Do not begin... but complete... have trust and move on...

I think the answer the Yi gives you here is not about letting you know he is the one, but giving you inner trust to sort it out for yourself, instead of asking higher powers... (Human Gods, in the form of speaking to you through the I Ching...!)

Something like that :-D?

Huggie,
Frank

bruce · Feb 10, 2006

Dobro,

"I'd really appreciate it if the questioner kept us informed as to whether the guy she's asking about turns about to be a good partner. It would settle some of the dust in this thread."

Not really. I took no position on whether or not the guy she's asking about turns out to be a good partner, based on her reading.

There is "seeing", as in insight (ie: seeing the great man or a hidden truth), and there is seeing something from a purely subjective point of view. My only assertion has been that, the kind of seeing in line 3 is of the latter.

ewald · Feb 10, 2006

Muller has for ji?n ("seeing"):
# To see, to experience with one's own eyes; to discern.
# To visit, have an audience with; to give audience to.
# Observe, regard as.
# Show, let see, display. Be visible.
# Idea, opinion, point of view.

ewald · Feb 10, 2006

I'm translating 38.3 currently as:
<blockquote>Noticing a wagon being dragged,
its ox held back,
its man has a branded forehead and his nose cut off.
Not the first time, but it'll be the last.</blockquote>
I'm not sure why Wilhelm/Baynes has "Not a good beginning, but a good end," as there is nowhere in the Chinese text a character for "good."

bradford_h · Feb 10, 2006

This is more on Jian4, from my own glossary www.hermetica.info/I-YiGloss.pdf
It means much more than just to passively see. It's closer to "put yourself in that place". It's what I meant by vicarious trial and error. When you "see the dragon in the field" or derive benefit from "seeing the great man", you are actually going to see them.

jian4 見 0860 241a 147+0 01.2 (to) catch sight of, envision, look at, observe, perceive, see, spy, view, visualize, watch, witness; apprehend, be exposed to, call upon, consult, encounter, experience, have audience with, interview, meet (with), notice, receive, refer to, visit; appear, appear to be show up; display, reveal, exhibit, flaunt, manifest, show (s, ed, ing); (a, the) consciousness; sight, vision, advice respectfully sought; (to be) exposed (to), found, in view (of), seen, viewed, visible; consciously

dobro · Feb 10, 2006

Well, after reading all this a couple of times, I'm coming to the conclusion that, for me at least, 'see' has two main possibilities: the ordinary one of seeing and witnessing something, and the somewhat subjective one of perceiving something in a particular way (a perception which may not actually correspond to reality).

The first interpretation gives 38.3 this sort of meaning: "This is what you're seeing in the situation right now". The second interpretation gives the same line this sort of meaning: "This is how you're perceiving the situation".

Okay, if I'm right in reading the last line as something along the lines of "you can't bring all this stuff to its natural completion right away, but you'll get there in the end", then that would indicate that this lines resonates with Hex 14, right? That's the 'big having' involved here - you don't have it now, but you'll have it later - and that's encouraging. So overall, the gist of the first reading of 'see' would be: "things are crummy now, but it's a transient situation, and will eventually pass", and the overall meaning of the second reading of 'see' would be: "you're not seeing things clearly, but you'll get over that".

And for me, it doesn't matter a lot which one you take to be the case, cuz the crux of it lies in the last line - something lousy at first, but you get what you need in the end. Which means my original take on the line is mistaken. Hey Minnie - listen to nothing I've told you - I'm still learning the meaning of this line lol. Whew.

Matt - 'lyrical dance' - I like that. I know you're trying to be belittling, but I still like 'lyrical dance'. What I'm doing doesn't seem like dancing to me though, it seems more like groping toward a better understanding of the Yi. "Lyrical grope" doesn't quite sing though, does it?

bruce · Feb 10, 2006

Brad,

Your link didn't open for me.

Quote: "When you "see the dragon in the field" or derive benefit from "seeing the great man", you are actually going to see them."

Um, wait a minute here. I hope you mean that in a metaphorical sense? As in "perceiving", and not literally some great, wise old man with robes and sashes you can touch and hear and smell.

Likewise, the definitions you've presented for jian4 can also be interpreted as literal or metaphor. So I'm failing to see this as evidence of 38.3 as saying: seeing the truth of the matter. Instead, it can just as easily be interpreted as saying: this is what you catch sight of, envision, look at, observe, perceive, see, spy, view, visualize, watch, witness; apprehend, be exposed to, call upon, consult, encounter, experience, have audience with, interview, meet (with), notice, receive, refer to, visit; appear, appear to be show up; display, reveal, exhibit, flaunt, manifest, show, etc. ? but, only as you are subjectively imagining it to be.

jesed · Feb 10, 2006

Hi Bruce

In some practices, within some tradition in Yi Jing, one actually and literally see "some great, wise old man with robes and sashes you can touch and hear and smell".

Example: Confucio said King Wen was his master in the later years of his life. And many practitioners of that tradition had made the same experience.

Of course, if you say that is not "real" but a ilussion, I won't fight it back.

Best wishes

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