Can I invent my own method of divination?

bostonian · Dec 11, 2009

Since, as I believe, the I Ching basically provides a way to tap into the collective unconscious, can one make up his own own methods to, for example, get a better response to a yes-no question? For example, can I get the answer to a yes-no question through the ratio of yang and yin lines. The more yang vs. yin, the more likely the answer is "yes," and so on.

elvis · Dec 12, 2009

bostonian said:
Since, as I believe, the I Ching basically provides a way to tap into the collective unconscious, can one make up his own own methods to, for example, get a better response to a yes-no question? For example, can I get the answer to a yes-no question through the ratio of yang and yin lines. The more yang vs. yin, the more likely the answer is "yes," and so on.

all this will do is give you less precision - the set of possible outcomes forms into level 6 of Pascal's triangle. This reflects a 'wave' nature and so allows for superpositions of meaning then in need of differentiating.

The EIC model brings out the concrete nature of our being as single context, full integrated, species members where there is no abstraction. Abstraction allows us to communicate OUT of that single context. What is noticeable is that that single context level in the neurology still exists such that sets of abstractions (e.g. I Ching hexagrams or categories of emotions) can be traced back down to that level and we can we use that to map one set of meanings to another - e.g. emotional assessments of situations to yang/yin.

What is also noticeable is that at the concrete level, due to there being no abstractions, the differentiation of meaning is through recursion of a specific form of dichotomy. Thus meaning emerges from the layering of this dichotomy and when we move into the realm of abstractions all we do is relabel the basic elements of the dichotomy.

Given this layering we can set of classes of specialist questions and apply them in a hierarchic manner to elicit meanings that will be found to be of the same form (isomorphic) to the I Ching hexagrams.

Furthermore, due to the nature of part/whole dynamics in our brains we can use logic operators to extract a parts list or spectrum of information from ANY whole - such as a hexagram. It needs DEPTH to do this, it wont work with trigrams etc.

S0 - (a) you can set up a set of questions applicable to some context, ensuring they are in general to particular format and fit the form of an asymmetric dichotomy ( part/whole, anti-symmetry/symmetry etc)
(b) given the outcome you can then derive fine details of the derived hexagram and so fine details of the situation represented by that hexagram.

The issue of course is the form of the questions - they must be vague, CLASS related to elicit some mening useful in covering the situation. Thus "does X love me" is 'meaningless' from the class level but the class level gives us 'bigger picture' information (related to parallel processing and so holistic analysis) useful in dealing with a situation that has elicited the specific question of "does X love me"

Trojina · Dec 12, 2009

bostonian said:
Since, as I believe, the I Ching basically provides a way to tap into the collective unconscious, can one make up his own own methods to, for example, get a better response to a yes-no question? For example, can I get the answer to a yes-no question through the ratio of yang and yin lines. The more yang vs. yin, the more likely the answer is "yes," and so on.

if you just want yes or no you could toss a coin ...or any random object as long as you determined which side was yes and which was no in advance.

bostonian · Dec 12, 2009

I see what you mean Trojan. I'd be losing all the wisdom that the I Ching has to offer.

Elvis, thanks for the detailed response. But I have to admit that I was totally lost after the first paragraph.

44bob123 · Dec 12, 2009

The EIC model brings out the concrete nature of our being as single context, full integrated, species members where there is no abstraction.

I've tried so hard to understand the Emotional I Ching but can't. At least I know where you're coming from.

As to the question, can you develop your own divination system, the answere has to be yes. They all started from someone, with an original idea which later gets refined. Just surf the web and you'll find lots of DIY systems and creative ideas!!

Bob

neegula · Dec 12, 2009

bostonian said:
I see what you mean Trojan. I'd be losing all the wisdom that the I Ching has to offer.

and you can handle a different/lateral form of divination.depends on your passion for it
wisdom is IN yourself

if you like have a look here
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=102597&posted=1#post102597

and here
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=9063

bostonian said:
Elvis, thanks for the detailed response. But I have to admit that I was totally lost after the first paragraph.

i also thank elvis, but just think what it was for me from the linguistical point of view:bag:

bradford · Dec 13, 2009

I can't see why this wouldn't work.
But just remember than Yin means "Yes" about half of the time.

elvis · Dec 13, 2009

bostonian said:
I see what you mean Trojan. I'd be losing all the wisdom that the I Ching has to offer.

Elvis, thanks for the detailed response. But I have to admit that I was totally lost after the first paragraph.

thats interesting. How, specifically, were you lost - perhaps I can rephrase it for you?

elvis · Dec 13, 2009

44bob said:
I've tried so hard to understand the Emotional I Ching but can't.
Bob

I am sure your capable of understanding it Bob; perhaps the issue is in the lack of traditional divination approach (where such is considered not necessary to get the I Ching, as a language, to work well in supplying information on any situation in a consistent, repeatable, testable, manner)

In the context of this thread, the EIC work shows how each of us can derive a set of questions for interpreting situations (and so questions other than those supplied in the EIC) and in doing so elicit meaning. The issue then is 'is that divining or is it predicting?' - there is a subtle difference where the latter is more like the use of mathematics where given KNOWN universals we can derive a specific by filling in the dots. With divining there is a sense of some external, all-knowing source that already knows an outcome and as such 'directs' the fall of coin/yarrow-stick etc; this gets into superdeterminism etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction

and : "A prediction is a statement or claim that a particular event will occur in the future. The etymology of this word is Latin (from præ- "before" plus dicere "to say"). Prediction - Informal prediction. Outside the rigorous context of science, prediction is often confused with informed guess or opinion. A prediction of this kind might be valid and useful if the predictor is a knowledgeable person in the field and is employing sound reasoning and accurate data."

and

"in a scientific context, a prediction is a rigorous (often quantitative) statement about what will happen under specific conditions, typically expressed in the form If A is true, then B will also be true. The scientific method is built on testing predictions which are logical consequences of scientific theories. A scientific theory whose predictions are not in accordance with observations will probably be rejected. Additionally, if new theories generate many new predictions, they are often highly valued, for they can be quickly and easy. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divination

and :

"-mancy
combining form meaning "divination by means of," from O.Fr. -mancie, from L.L. -mantia, from Gk. manteia "oracle, divination," from mantis "seer, prophet, soothsayer," related to mania "madness, frenzy" (see mania)."

and:

"divine (v.)
"to conjure, to guess," originally "to make out by supernatural insight," early 14c., from L. divinus (see divine (adj.)), which also meant "soothsayer." Hence, divination (late 14c.), from O.Fr., from L. divinationem (nom. divinatio) "the power of foreseeing, prediction," from divinatus, pp. of divinare, lit. "to be inspired by a god." Divining rod (or wand) attested from 1650s."

44bob123 · Dec 13, 2009

Elvis, I claim my $20. You are Chris Lofting in disguise! Take off your mask and give me the money.

(Ooops if I've made a mistake. Maybe you're his brother?)

All in jest, Bob :duh:

bostonian · Dec 13, 2009

But just remember than Yin means "Yes" about half of the time.

what do you mean?

Trojina · Dec 13, 2009

bostonian said:
I see what you mean Trojan. I'd be losing all the wisdom that the I Ching has to offer.

.

often though i do take a simple yes or a no from the answer but alot more besides. For example i recently asked if it would be a good idea to return somewhere before january and got hex 33..well i took that as a 'no' basically but it was a no I understood more of the reasons for if you see what i mean

bostonian · Dec 13, 2009

elvis said:
thats interesting. How, specifically, were you lost - perhaps I can rephrase it for you?

I appreciate the offer. But i tried to go through your post again to find out where I'm lost, and i discovered that I don't understand the words and phrases. I'm either not smart enough or too green.

bostonian · Dec 13, 2009

trojan said:
often though i do take a simple yes or a no from the answer but alot more besides. For example i recently asked if it would be a good idea to return somewhere before january and got hex 33..well i took that as a 'no' basically but it was a no I understood more of the reasons for if you see what i mean

Oh right. A large percentage of my question are yes-no. I do feel I'm answered but not always in the terms that I was asking. There are "yes that will happen, but you may not like it as much as you think you will", or "for now, don't worry about that. More important to focus on this," or "didn't I just answer the same question yesterday? You didn't believe me?"

bradford · Dec 14, 2009

bostonian said:
what do you mean?

Yin v Yang and Yes v No both divide the world in half, but along different axes. The stupidest mistake that people make with Yin and Yang is to lump everything into one or the other and then make connections within the class:
Yin is to Yang as Evil is to Good as Female is to Male as Inferior is to Superior -
therefore, Female, being Yin, is Evil and Inferior.
If the Yin state is to accept something and that's what you're asking about, then Yin is saying: yes, be Yin and accept. Yang would be saying: No, be full of yourself instead.

bostonian · Dec 14, 2009

bradford said:
Yin v Yang and Yes v No both divide the world in half, but along different axes. The stupidest mistake that people make with Yin and Yang is to lump everything into one or the other and then make connections within the class:
Yin is to Yang as Evil is to Good as Female is to Male as Inferior is to Superior -
therefore, Female, being Yin, is Evil and Inferior.
If the Yin state is to accept something and that's what you're asking about, then Yin is saying: yes, be Yin and accept. Yang would be saying: No, be full of yourself instead.

Well, I don't really understand "evil and inferior." But I do know from hexagrams 1 and 2, that Yin is of the earth and material and Yang is of the heaven and spiritual. So are you saying if i ask, for example, "Will I get this job?" Yin will want to say "yes" in a material sense -- that is I will be hired by the employer; while yang wants to respond in a more creative and spiritual sense which might mean "will I get this job" where get means "understand," "enjoy" or "grow spiritually in"? So in that sense my process of simply deciding that the more yang lines i get, the more likely the answer is yes, is much too simplistic?

By the way, I was curious to see what would happen if I asked the same yes-no question twice, and interestingly, I got mirror images. I think the oracle is having some fun with me.

The first response was (sorry I don't know how best to draw straight and broken lines)

_
_
_
_
_
--

and the second one was

_
--
--
--
--
--

meng · Dec 14, 2009

I think the single greatest mistake is thinking the Yi has an opinion about every thing which concerns us. We can gain direction through understanding, and that can help us to make more informed decisions, but Yi isn’t meant to replace our ability to think and choose what we think is best.

I have a guitar that I’m thinking of “parting out”, as I could get more that way than selling it whole. But it’s a good backup guitar as it sits. Unsure whether to part it out of forget about it, I asked Yi; in the back of my mind was 23. Sure enough, 23, no lines. Now, was the Yi saying to strip the guitar and sell it, or to just forget about it and focus on productive things? Furthermore, what does the Yi care about all of this, besides directing me toward the result I want? It still comes down to my choices. If I don’t know which choice would make me happy, how is the Yi supposed to know?

lloyd · Dec 14, 2009

Just feel like adding this to what meng wrote:
The ancient King's and Emperors were not supposed to pound on I Ching without forgetting that they had a world around (beneath) them; which is probably the most Chinese aspect of I Ching.
As a user you gather information about yourself while living among the ministers/partners/relatives, officers/friends/colleagues and the people (standards of the time); the words in I Ching are there only to be taken up again together with your partner, friends, etc.
You are the one who brings in the morals and/or the ethics, the book represents Tao and has none of either.
(part of longer text under Q, below)

elvis · Dec 14, 2009

meng said:
I think the single greatest mistake is thinking the Yi has an opinion about every thing which concerns us. We can gain direction through understanding, and that can help us to make more informed decisions, but Yi isn’t meant to replace our ability to think and choose what we think is best.

As a form of mythic language it works off supplying a set of all the possible classes of meanings (just enough, not too many, not too few) where consciousness can then tie a class to an instance, as in the moment in question. There is a LOT of information available that is not in consciousness since it would overload such and is not neccessary - as such it is compressed. Given a particular class it is possible to uncompress the details of that class and so be in a more informed position. That said, over time one intuitively develops understanding of these properties of a class and so can assess a context quickly.

meng said:
I have a guitar that I’m thinking of “parting out”, as I could get more that way than selling it whole. But it’s a good backup guitar as it sits. Unsure whether to part it out of forget about it, I asked Yi; in the back of my mind was 23. Sure enough, 23, no lines. Now, was the Yi saying to strip the guitar and sell it, or to just forget about it and focus on productive things? Furthermore, what does the Yi care about all of this, besides directing me toward the result I want? It still comes down to my choices. If I don’t know which choice would make me happy, how is the Yi supposed to know?

hmmm... I think your understanding of 23 is too 'traditional' - the focus is in fact on pruning, from the 'lite' form of housekeeping, through pruning, to the heavy form of some high priest/priestess focused on preserving the core beliefs and removing all of the 'rubbish'.

Your actions support the focus on housekeeping/pruning and so a focus on the value of that guitar, is it to be pruned as part of your housekeeping, or is to be kept since it has value? THAT choice is not for the I Ching, that is for you - all the I Ching has done is ground the situation. Asking the I Ching 'what should I do' is not useful but asking what the situation is about can aid in consciousness making a good decision.

meng · Dec 14, 2009

Agree.

heylise · Dec 14, 2009

bradford said:
I can't see why this wouldn't work.
But just remember than Yin means "Yes" about half of the time.

Can I invent my own method of divination?

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