Frustrated with reading about "Karma"

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

Hi, This may sound like a sort of nasty question for the I Ching, but I have been frustrated for years because of an aggressive, meddling, and hypocritical older sister. This sister has caused immeasurable family damage with her judging, meddling, and hypocritical actions which have affected me, my other sister, and my son.

To make matters worse, this same bad sister was involved in a matter years ago with very, very serious ethical and legal implications. Due to her cunning and dishonesty, she was able to escape unscathed. Others who escaped would have been humbled, but for her, this was one more excuse to become even more arrogant, judgmental, and meddling than ever. So much for karma. Our family even saw a therapist about her, and she managed to win this therapist over, by being wealthy and paying her full price twice a week, for herself and her daughter. We could only pay a discount rate, so the therapist came to prefer her.

For years I have been asking the I Ching if "Karma" would ever come back on her, if the matter would finally catch up with her (I cannot think of anything else which would ever humble her). The I Ching always says no, and she continues on, more inflated than ever. I asked again today, and again, the I Ching seems not to care, and to say "No": any insights as to why this would be? I feel the I Ching simply does not care, and keeps hinting that S will be fine and dandy and continue to hurt the family.

*will S's vileness ever send Karma back on her?*3.4>17

The present is embodied in Hexagram 3 - Chun (Difficulty at the Beginning): There will be great progress and success, and the advantage will come from being correct and firm. Any movement in advance should not be undertaken lightly. There will be advantage in appointing feudal princes or other delegates in your stead.

The fourth line, divided, shows its subject as a lady. The horses of her chariot appear in retreat. She seeks, however, the help of him who seeks her to be his wife. Advance will be fortunate, and all will turn out advantageously.

The situation is evolving slowly, and Yang (the active masculine force) is gaining ground.
The future is embodied in Hexagram 17 - Sui (Following): There will be great progress and success, but one must be firm and correct. There will then be no error.

answeredquestions · May 24, 2012

Maybe the Yijing sees it as resentment or malevolence on your part, rather than karma on her's.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

answeredquestions said:
Maybe the Yijing sees it as resentment or malevolence on your part, rather than karma on her's.

I have thought of that, but it doesn't square. It is she, and not myself or anyone else, who is the aggressor and very destructive to others. If she went about her own business in good faith and hurting no one , THEN resentment or malevolence would perhaps rightly be seen as my motive for wanting her troubles to resurface-------, but as she antagonizes and will not leave others alone - and everyone says this about her - the malevolence is on her side.

Good thought, but does not seem to apply here..this is the whole problem.....

It seems rather just the usual case of those who are cunning and who obtain ill-gotten wealth, being able to hurt others with impunity. Apparently, Karma is an illusion.

answeredquestions · May 24, 2012

Karma to me is a belief that there is a long distance cause and effect present, something stretched out beyond a lifetime. One would really only have to understand the importance of the smallest action, and see the ripples it causes, to grasp this microcosmically. Yet we don't know how exacty things work beyond death.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

answeredquestions said:
Karma to me is a belief that there is a long distance cause and effect present, something stretched out beyond a lifetime. One would really only have to understand the importance of the smallest action, and see the ripples it causes, to grasp this microcosmically. Yet we don't know how exacty things work beyond death.

So in this view, she would "pay", for want of a better word, for her destructiveness toward others, and her hypocrisy, either in an after life, or in another incarnation? I think Karma should happen more quickly, and how do we know the stretching out in time isn't just a rationalization, as we see no justice here?

thanks though for your input!

hopex · May 24, 2012

dear foxx777 hexagram 3 line 4 is definitely saying let this go.

i also see 3 as beginning something with help from someone
able. I would take this to mean going to a counsellor asking
to put this down.

17 may even be following the advices of this person -

for years I felt my mother favoured my sister and they
ganged up on me - i cannot tell you have many older women
i have had bullying me in work etc in my life.

once we see the roots its good to dig em out and plant your
own beautiful life garden

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

hopex said:
dear foxx777 hexagram 3 line 4 is definitely saying let this go.

i also see 3 as beginning something with help from someone
able. I would take this to mean going to a counsellor asking
to put this down.

17 may even be following the advices of this person -

for years I felt my mother favoured my sister and they
ganged up on me - i cannot tell you have many older women
i have had bullying me in work etc in my life.

once we see the roots its good to dig em out and plant your
own beautiful life garden

Thanks for this. I do hope that I can put this behind me, as I am not a person who like conflict, drama, or agitation.

How were you able to finally deal with your mother and sister, and with the women at work? I suppose you mean planting your own garden and not caring about what theirs is.....if only such people would just stick to themselves, and I do think maybe a counselor should set written boundaries that must be adhered to. thanks again!

answeredquestions · May 24, 2012

There are so many complexities to life, I do not have a firm belief of what happens. What I was saying is that it is simple to see that things are affected by looking at the small moments and how they cause ripples into the horizon. But we can only see so far. myopia is for a reason as to not overwhelm us. Things have limits and measures like 60. We can only see so much at a time. The reason for wanting 'karma' or for her to 'pay' more quickly is for your own satisfaction, not the growth of her 'spirit'.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

answeredquestions said:
There are so many complexities to life, I do not have a firm belief of what happens. What I was saying is that it is simple to see that things are affected by looking at the small moments and how they cause ripples into the horizon. But we can only see so far. myopia is for a reason as to not overwhelm us. Things have limits and measures like 60. We can only see so much at a time. The reason for wanting 'karma' or for her to 'pay' more quickly is for your own satisfaction, not the growth of her 'spirit'.

Yes, I think I understand what you are saying. It is just that when one is being affected in the here and now, you want to take action---I suppose this is why there are legal courts and actions taken. If someone robs and rapes you now, you want to phone the police and report it, and not wait for it to affect their growth centuries down the line. I suppose it is a matter of taking a less worldly view. I am trying, I really am trying.....thanks

answeredquestions · May 24, 2012

You cannot affect someone's 'karma' or what the universe is becoming for someone. And so the story goes, you can only do what you can do and in my findings you can do very little that is satisfying as far as affecting other people. What turns out to be satisfying is changing things within yourself.. Like say, letting go of the hatred for the rapist.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

answeredquestions said:
You cannot affect someone's 'karma' or what the universe is becoming for someone. And so the story goes, you can only do what you can do and in my findings you can do very little that is satisfying as far as affecting other people. What turns out to be satisfying is changing things within yourself.. Like say, letting go of the hatred for the rapist.

Wise words, will heed them.

dragona · May 24, 2012

At the first glance, the cast is describing a person who is trying to find someone to hook onto and follow, gain advance with help. Would that be describing your sister? If so, don`t give her the material to work with, exclude her from your own affairs. Or is it about you?
I don`t think this question was right for IChing, it speaks of your helpless attitude in this matter and then the line indicates you need help in this matter.
Think about that, please.
Perhaps you can ask for helpful insight from IC:
How can i improve relationship with my sister?
What should be my attitude towards our problems?
Give me an insight/a picture of our situation..
You know..starting form yourself, as it is the only thing you can do.
Good luck and sincerely so :hug:

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

At the first glance, the cast is describing a person who is trying to find someone to hook onto and follow, gain advance with help. Would that be describing your sister? If so, don`t give her the material to work with, exclude her from your own affairs.I think this resonates with me. She is actually seeing my therapist now! they talk about my affairs constantly... must be solved.

I tried once more, Please give me insight into this conflict with S:19.1>7---looks like it might be advising me to meet with S, and the therapist, together (this has been suggested in the past by the therapist):

The present is embodied in Hexagram 19 - Lin (Approach): There will be great progress and success, while it will be advantageous to be firmly correct. In the eighth month there will be evil.

The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows its subject advancing in company with the subject of the second line. Through his firm correctness there will be good fortune.
The situation is evolving slowly, and Yin (the passive feminine force) is gaining ground.

The future is embodied in Hexagram 7 - Shih (The Army): With firmness and correctness, and a leader of age and experience, there will be good fortune and no error.

dragona · May 24, 2012

Haha, she talks about YOUR affairs on HER therapist time?

She must be loaded...just make sure you see the same person a few times alone, as
he/she must have all figured out for you and may give you an discount.

Sometimes only thing one can do is use some humor...my friend says he is kinda honored when people discuss his affairs, makes him feel interesting :blush:

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

dragona said:
Haha, she talks about YOUR affairs on HER therapist time?
She must be loaded...just make sure you see the same person a few times alone, as
he/she must have all figured out for you and may give you an discount.

Sometimes only thing one can do is use some humor...my friend says he is kinda honored when people discuss his affairs, makes him feel interesting

Yes, this was MY therapist, and she honed in. I think the therapist should not have allowed it.

two people have told me it is unethical. ha, i will try to feel honored

hopex · May 24, 2012

it is my belief that karma can go over lifetimes and since even a
long life is short its not worth dwelling on - my personal opinion.

i allowed a lot to happen to me - i had to learn lots about handling
myself - still learning:bows:

19 progress will be made - get your own counsellor - and organise
your own army (support system) 7:bows:

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

hopex said:
19 progress will be made - get your own counsellor - and organise
your own army (support system) 7:bows:

I will take this well under advisement.

I am sorry to hear about what you went through.

I think it is commendable that you did not fall into bitterness. Your mother was right to feel guilt; mine does not, that is the difference. She encourages this sister.

I hope I can find a way not to be bitter, I have no idea how, except to try and make positive changes where I will not be a victim any more. I cannot help feeling that the loss of your teaching job ought to have been addressed legally. Not very i ching of me, but I work for a attorney, and he goes for damages when people have been wronged, and I wish I had had him in my corner years ago.....thanks once more.x

dragona · May 24, 2012

foxx777 said:
Yes, this was MY therapist, and she honed in. I think the therapist should not have allowed it. two people have told me it is unethical. ha, i will try to feel honored

The thing is - I can relate. And I was told to try gain my own life, concentrate on my own happiness, others are doing that already and are way ahead.
So fix yourself first and the energy will change for your benefit and for hers as well.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

dragona said:
The thing is - I can relate. And I was told to try gain my own life, concentrate on my own happiness, others are doing that already and are way ahead.
So fix yourself first and the energy will change for your benefit and for hers as well.

Thank you: As you are all saying basically the same thing, it must be true. I will take heed. I may not be able to make big changes, but I will make the ones within my power to make.

meganj · May 24, 2012

Hmm, well obviously she's unhappy, the karma is on a deeper level perhaps for her.
She will with time only isolate herself from her own family.
There is no need to wonder when karma will work because it is already at work with her nastiness.
The resentment and dislike shes creating is that.

foxx777 · May 24, 2012

meganj said:
Hmm, well obviously she's unhappy, the karma is on a deeper level perhaps for her.
She will with time only isolate herself from her own family.
There is no need to wonder when karma will work because it is already at work with her nastiness.
The resentment and dislike shes creating is that.

Good point , Megan, well taken...:bows:

meng · May 24, 2012

I've come to automatically cringe when karma is given as a reason for why things happen as they happen, especially when used indiscriminately. Like the word "spiritual" is most often used, as though it operates on it's own with no connections to psychological or emotional cause and affect. If karma does operate, the scale can easily outsize our field of awareness, so there's no way anyone or even a group can accurately judge when the hand of karma is moving, or whether it's just another happenstance along the river of life.

What I do believe happens is that we can condition ourselves to draw to us that which we expect. Sometimes what we expect is what we fear most. When Job lost his family and possessions in a single day he proclaimed "That which I have feared most has come upon me!" I once spoke with a man at the church, who was losing his sight; a leader and teacher. Now what would his message be? He told me, "that which I have feared most has come upon me." He wasn't aware of the Job passage he spoke.

And so we can call this karma.

foxx777 · May 25, 2012

meng said:
I've come to automatically cringe when karma is given as a reason for why things happen as they happen, especially when used indiscriminately. Like the word "spiritual" is most often used, as though it operates on it's own with no connections to psychological or emotional cause and affect. If karma does operate, the scale can easily outsize our field of awareness, so there's no way anyone or even a group can accurately judge when the hand of karma is moving, or whether it's just another happenstance along the river of life.

What I do believe happens is that we can condition ourselves to draw to us that which we expect. Sometimes what we expect is what we fear most. When Job lost his family and possessions in a single day he proclaimed "That which I have feared most has come upon me!" I once spoke with a man at the church, who was losing his sight; a leader and teacher. Now what would his message be? He told me, "that which I have feared most has come upon me." He wasn't aware of the Job passage he spoke.

And so we can call this karma.

Wow, that line from Job has been something I have been fixated on for years.

I even wrote a poem in 2005, entitled, "The Thing that I Feared Has Come Upon Me", and I have often told people I am being "tested like Job". I cannot believe you have strangely intuited this, in some way.

long yi · May 25, 2012

Converting reading to a lifetime hexagram

You want to know the karma of your sister. Your reading must be processed into a lifetime hexagram.

六神　伏神　　　坎宫：水雷屯　　　　　　　　　　震宫：泽雷随（归魂）
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　兄弟戊子水　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼丁未土　应
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼戊戌土　应　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母丁酉金　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母戊申金　　×→　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟丁亥水　　
滕蛇　妻财戊午火　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚辰土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚辰土　世
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙庚寅木　世　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙庚寅木　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟庚子水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟庚子水　　

Calculation:
Hexagram 3
line 2 子孙庚寅木　世 host line is wood (3);
line 5 官鬼戊戌土　应 guest line is earth (5)
3 + 5 = 8
luck cycle starts at 8 years old

Hexagram 3: 世為阳爻 host line is a yang line (line 2)，順行 (clockwise count)
line 2: age 8-12
line 3: age 13-17
line 4: age 18-22
line 5: age 23-27
line 6: age 28-32
line 1: age 33-37

Hexagram 17: 世為阳爻 host line is a yang line (line 3), 順行(clockwise count)
line 3: age 38-42
line 4: age 43-47
line 5: age 48-52
line 6: age 53-57
line 1: age 58-62
line 2: age 63-67

This layout tells you her luck and behavior every 5 years. Current situation depends on her age.

For you, if you apply restrictions for everyone to comply, then everyone follows the same rule. Problem is at least solved.

For your sister, you will not get into trouble with the law. She is a lucky person, but a bit slow in dealing with anything. She will be better after 38 years old.

Her luck in each 5 year cycle depends on her interaction with the year's Chinese 8 letter pillar.

If she is 28-32, you may not be happy in many things she does. Before 37, she starts off very slow in behaving herself as a mature person (at odds with parents, need a lot of help from siblings).

foxx777 · May 25, 2012

long yi said:
You want to know the karma of your sister. Your reading must be processed into a lifetime hexagram.

六神　伏神　　　坎宫：水雷屯　　　　　　　　　　震宫：泽雷随（归魂）
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　兄弟戊子水　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼丁未土　应
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼戊戌土　应　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母丁酉金　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母戊申金　　×→　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟丁亥水　　
滕蛇　妻财戊午火　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚辰土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚辰土　世
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙庚寅木　世　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙庚寅木　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟庚子水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟庚子水　　

Calculation:
Hexagram 3
line 2 子孙庚寅木　世 host line is wood (3);
line 5 官鬼戊戌土　应 guest line is earth (5)
3 + 5 = 8
luck cycle starts at 8 years old

Hexagram 3: 世為阳爻 host line is a yang line (line 2)，順行 (clockwise count)
line 2: age 8-12
line 3: age 13-17
line 4: age 18-22
line 5: age 23-27
line 6: age 28-32
line 1: age 33-37

Hexagram 17: 世為阳爻 host line is a yang line (line 3), 順行(clockwise count)
line 3: age 38-42
line 4: age 43-47
line 5: age 48-52
line 6: age 53-57
line 1: age 58-62
line 2: age 63-67

This layout tells you her luck and behavior every 5 years. Current situation depends on her age.

For you, if you apply restrictions for everyone to comply, then everyone follows the same rule. Problem is at least solved.

For your sister, you will not get into trouble with the law. She is a lucky person, but a bit slow in dealing with anything. She will be better after 38 years old.

Her luck in each 5 year cycle depends on her interaction with the year's Chinese 8 letter pillar.

If she is 28-32, you may not be happy in many things she does. Before 37, she starts off very slow in behaving herself as a mature person (at odds with parents, need a lot of help from siblings).

Wow, thank you for that. She is actually 54, but her development or luck did take a turn at 38. I think the method you use is marvelous. I am in fact in the process of setting some boundaries, legally and otherwise, as you mention above. thank you so, so much---I always LOVE your input!

long yi · May 25, 2012

In hexagram 17, line 1 (58-62 age) is a yang line. Line 4 is also a yang line. These are the brother and sister lines. No wonder you cannot agree with each other. In addition, she has issue with money. Do not know how to make a lot and need to spend. She may also be spending money on younger people (do not know whether is the next generation or someone else). Since both sister line 1 & 4 are water, you two mix, but you are at odds because you and your sister cannot compromise. Iching teaches compliance to a system. I will teach "align and engage" towards common objectives.

meng · May 25, 2012

foxx777 said:
Wow, that line from Job has been something I have been fixated on for years. I even wrote a poem in 2005, entitled, "The Thing that I Feared Has Come Upon Me", and I have often told people I am being "tested like Job". I cannot believe you have strangely intuited this, in some way.

"spooky action at a distance"

The Story is part of every "hero's journey". The inner hero must be tested. Job's trip was tough cuz he had judgment coming at him from every direction. Even his own wife told him "curse God and die!" His so-called best friends blamed his secret sins, with no evidence but their own displaced self-condemnation.

And rather than lighten up on him, God gives Satan the new freedom to strike him in his flesh, but not to kill him.

Fortunately, Job finally gets his day in court, standing before the Gong (6.5), and God mocks him by asking questions like, did you hang the stars in the sky, Job? Did you make the Leviathan, did you catch him? That reminds me when the huge wave of Poseidon told the drowning Odysseus that he must suffer more to learn that he is a man, nothing more, nothing less, and that man is nothing without the gods.

We don't usually think of good karma coming within a difficult challenge.

foxx777 · May 25, 2012

long yi said:
In hexagram 17, line 1 (58-62 age) is a yang line. Line 4 is also a yang line. These are the brother and sister lines. No wonder you cannot agree with each other. In addition, she has issue with money. Do not know how to make a lot and need to spend. She may also be spending money on younger people (do not know whether is the next generation or someone else). Since both sister line 1 & 4 are water, you two mix, but you are at odds because you and your sister cannot compromise. Iching teaches compliance to a system. I will teach "align and engage" towards common objectives.

Yes, uncanny: She has spent lavishly on her daughters and now is money mad trying to think of a way to make up for such extravagance. I have been willing to compromise but she cannot. thanks for that input!

foxx777 · May 25, 2012

meng said:
"spooky action at a distance"

The Story is part of every "hero's journey". The inner hero must be tested. Job's trip was tough cuz he had judgment coming at him from every direction. Even his own wife told him "curse God and die!" His so-called best friends blamed his secret sins, with no evidence but their own displaced self-condemnation.

And rather than lighten up on him, God gives Satan the new freedom to strike him in his flesh, but not to kill him.

Fortunately, Job finally gets his day in court, standing before the Gong (6.5), and God mocks him by asking questions like, did you hang the stars in the sky, Job? Did you make the Leviathan, did you catch him? That reminds me when the huge wave of Poseidon told the drowning Odysseus that he must suffer more to learn that he is a man, nothing more, nothing less, and that man is nothing without the gods.

We don't usually think of good karma coming within a difficult challenge.

Yes, it is just difficult at times to believe that gross injustice and suffering could in any way be positive. Job's day in court always bothered me......something amiss there, because the vastness of God and the universe do not really justify gross suffering.

meng · May 25, 2012

foxx777 said:
Yes, it is just difficult at times to believe that gross injustice and suffering could in any way be positive. Job's day in court always bothered me......something amiss there, because the vastness of God and the universe do not really justify gross suffering.

On earth, it is resistance that promotes progress. One can still experience the godhead as benevolent through trials of injustice.

If we look at the vastness of the universe carefully we witness a universe full of adversity, violent explosions, unsurvivable heat and cold, obstacles, unfriendly to any semblance of life at all. Yet life finds a way. I think the long term karmic affect acts likewise. It is within injustice that we develop our own foundations of right and wrong. If life was easy we'd become fat, lazy and weak, and probably extinct, just as any life form would.

Frustrated with reading about "Karma"

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