Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Am I wrong or it looks a little misogynist comment?They all look happily stoned.
... Yes I actually only know the Richard Wilhelm version so it might can be that different translators seeing things different. But forget this all because it is my opinion too so we don`t need books for to talk about the theme
...
For the following 20 I referred to it mentally, constantly finding parallels with Biblical texts; a topic which I've found to be less than popular or appreciated when mentioned on this forum.
Am I wrong or it looks a little misogynist comment?
Something distateful, I believe.
Ch.
I have been reproved for numerous biblical allusions only once, which reproof I ignored.
Hi Bruce:Yes, you're wrong. I wasn't even considering if they were female. Their puffy eyes and zoned out appearance is what I commented on, lightly. Geeze, Charly, lighten up. It's like you're on a crusade and feel women need defending. I think they're more than capable to make their own case, if a case even needs to be made about the principle of yang, without being interpreted as being misogynist.
Yes, you're wrong. I wasn't even considering if they were female. Their puffy eyes and zoned out appearance is what I commented on, lightly. Geeze, Charly, lighten up. It's like you're on a crusade and feel women need defending. I think they're more than capable to make their own case, if a case even needs to be made about the principle of yang, without being interpreted as being misogynist.
I wonder how you can look at the familar yin/yang symbol, you know the circle where each side has within the seed of the other and still entertain the idea Yang has supremacy ? Doesn't that miss the whole point, the very basis of the Yi ?
Edited to add I'm seeing in particular here the word supremacy which has the following meaning from online dictionary
Edited to add I'm seeing in particular here the word supremacy which has the following meaning from online dictionary
Quote:
su·preme (s-prm)
adj.
1. Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant.
2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
3. Ultimate; final: the supreme sacrifice.
Now I don't think Yang can be said to be more important than Yin or better.or vice versa..and I presume you don't (?).so I just wondered at the use of that word
@meng: That`s interesting what you said about the bible. Richard Wilhelm also used content from the bible for to explain lines or hexagrams of the I Ching and I also see a lot of analogies.
I don`t know this Baynes translation but I`ve read this name often here at the forum so probably this version of the I Ching is the most popular? If "yes" I guess I should read it after I have read the english version of the Wilhelm version.
So you are a Christ Me too
Hi Bruce:
I apologize. Fortunately I was wrong. thanks for the explanation.
About women I'm not in a crusade only that I have opinions, or better, I got some alternative opinions and about the Changes I believe that a version partially deconfucianized should be more healthy.
And I got such ideas reading Wilhelm, of course, between lines.
All the best,
Charly
Hi, Bruce:I... Wilhelm translated to German. Baynes translated the Wilhelm to English. I think this fellow deserves more credit than he typically receives, since the English version is written so elegantly.
...
Hi, Yvonne:@Charly: Especially for you I changed my avatar into an image of the MOON Hope you like it Lol. Sorry I`m just kidding In fact I like your gentlemen style, I appreciate it, because that are good manners for a man (woman like that ;-)), but really don`t worry too much about Yin, it will make it`s way same way like Yang. None of the two principles need help or support.
@All:Talk to you later, because I`m still busy.
The only thing disturbing me a lot is that men earn more money than wymen that is fairly unfair and wrong. But apart from that I don`t feel myself in an unfavorable position at all.
Hi, Yvonne:
I'm also busy, but I have write something for you, please, don't get upset!
Don't worry, things are well as they are, you've said.
Christine Legarde earns much money than all the men of this forum together. Isn't balance it?
Of course, I don't believe in such SPECIALISTS and the Changes neither.
I remember a sequence, which I will look for assap, where the Changes says something like:
«... USING SPECIALIST THERE WILL BE A GREAT DEFEAT.
AND TEN YEARS UNABLE FOR LEVYING TAXES. HORRIBLE!»
I believe that the hanges was speaking of the IMF and the submissive governments.
Yours,
Charly
Yvonne if you see my original post I'm not referring to men and women I'm referring to the use of the word 'supremacy' as applied to yang,,,,not men. No doubt its from Wilhelm yes, and elsewhere but it just struck me as an odd word to use when we consider that yin/yang symbol as neither is supreme. I mean I used the dictionary quote becasue supreme doesn't just mean different it actually means more important, better doesn't it ?
So how we got onto kickboxing and the weakness/strength of women I don't know....
but my point remains neither yin nor yang can be said to be supreme, as I think fundamentally you agree elsewhere.
So overall I think any difference in our POV
here is likley to be mainly that you are using the language of Wilhelm or at least that you have been very heavily influenced by Wilhelms take on Yi.....thats all.
Other than that I don't think we are disagreeing or talking about men and women here although it has been assumed by some that yang=men.
I'm a Joseph Campbell fan and I love his comment which almost summarizes his life's work: In the end, there is only one story of man, told in every culture, in every time period, with a different face.
Wilhelm translated to German. Baynes translated the Wilhelm to English. I think this fellow deserves more credit than he typically receives, since the English version is written so elegantly.
As mentioned, I've mentally edited certain points of view, and take into consideration that Wilhelm's parents were Christian missionaries, and that his teacher/master practiced the Confucian philosophies and view of the IC. Those two influences are terribly outdated, and also came after the Yijing had been around a long time, pre-Confucius, and of course further from the time that Wilhelm showed up on the scene. So there's a lot in there that wasn't originally. Still, if one is capable of making these sort of adjustments to his philosophy regarding superior, supreme/inferior, etc, there is truth and poetic beauty through his version. But I consider it a pretty far cry from the original meanings, particularly when he didn't make a clear differentiation between metaphor and the literal, as he applied to the mores of his time.
A kickboxing Christ; I love it!
Hi Yvonne,
Modern Chinese is of only limited use to understanding the language the Yijing's authors used, so learning modern Chinese may prove helpful, but it can also be misleading, as meanings of words change, especially colloquialisms and idioms of that period. Just imagine how some of our contemporary words and phrases in English might be interpreted 2,500+ years from now, especially if we didn't leave a gazillion reference dictionaries behind to make it easier to translate. I'll use a little street slang to illustrate.
"That gig rocked, it was sooo bad. Did you dig the chick wearing stilettos onstage? I'd hit that in a heartbeat!"
Ok, imagine the word-nerds trying to figure out what the heck that all meant. Granted, the Yi authors probably weren't street hip hop rappers, but I'm sure meanings of words and expressions, even within the same language, would be extremely hard to sort out, and they could never be absolutely sure in every case. That's why there are so many Yijing translations with varied commentaries.
That's why I think we each have to learn not only from available reading material and discussions but from from closely following our reading after we've received our answer, repeatedly contemplating how Yi's answer addressed the question. It's not a simple thing though, as each hexagram can have a wide variety of implications. That's where our more subtle but sharpened cognitive skills and intuition come to play. But it's also where meanings can get lost or twisted if relied on exclusively.
Totally agree that ancient and modern languages differ greatly. In fact there are several layers between the time when the Zhouyi was created and today. For instance all the language about sacrifices, including human sacrifice, that were in the ancient text and totally 'reimaged' in later layers. Due to the overloaded nature of Chinese characters the same word in the same text can mean something else entirely in a later age. Many revelations have come from the Oracle Bones of the Shang and Zhou, expanding our view of early China greatly.
But modern Chinese is a wonderful thing to learn both for the study of the Yi and the great sea of Chinese literature and history. For one thing, most of the thousands of books published on the Yi in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution are in modern Chinese, simplified orthography.
Learning Chinese is, at least for me, a lifetime work; since I started late and have no teacher. But with the wonderful computer tools available, particularly Pleco on mobiles and tablets, learning is greatly amplified and accelerated.
Hi, Buce:Charly, I forgot to mention that a big part of the stoned impression is that they were musicians grooving. If they played to the gods, received their inspiration from the gods, then that alone would qualify them as stoned 16. But it was their puffy eyes that made me chuckle. It was a "I'll have what they're having!" moment.
『18-4』 齊人歸女樂、季桓子受之、三日不朝、孔子行。
Confucius' Analects.
[18:4] The people of Qi sent Lu a present of girl musicians. Ji Huan (ruler of Lu) received them, and for three days did not hold court. Confucius left.
Charles Müller translation.
http://www.acmuller.net/con-dao/analects.html
Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians.
Nobody's perfect.
Yours,
Charly
I hope this summation is humorous or it is quite offensive in what it infers. Kongzi left because the ruler counted carnal pleasures of greater importance than court affairs. The duke turned his duties inside out, giving himself over entirely to the 'inner' doings of the palace and ignoring the 'outer' duties without which the country rapidly declines into chaos and weakness. To turn this around and assert that Kongzi was somehow involved with the entertainers is vulgar. I'm not saying he wasn't human. We have the verse in which he exclaims: "I have yet to meet a man who is as fond of virtue as he is of beautiful women" (Analects 9:18). But this is a matter of balance. The duke let his natural urges as a man outweigh his duty to govern the state. In the Confucian world model that is sufficient to lose the advise of the Master. Thus Kongzi left to find a more worthy ruler to advise.
The Master said: I have yet to see a man who loved virtue as much as sex.
Robert Eno,
Indiana Universsity
I mainly work with the trigrams and lines of the hexagrams, I hardly look at the text. Especially when I do consultations for others the trigrams often describe the most important elements of the situations pretty well.
During the lecture I gave last Thursday in Brugge, Belgium, there was a lady who asked with to do about her 'leg problem'. She did not specify the nature of this problem, but the Yi replied with hexagram 37, which consists of Wind over Fire. She had the 1st, 5th and 6th line moving. I told her that Fire referred to an inflammation, and that Wind prevented the healing - progress would be very slow, and the first line suggested that she should seek another form of treatment. The moving top lines urged her not to wait too long as the situation had reached his climax. Waiting would result in irreversible damage. The lady told me that she had an open wound which she tried to heal with alternative methods but for several weeks there wasn't any change. She was hesitant to use Western medicines, but I urged her to go to the doctor asap.
A mother asked why she couldn't get along well with her son. She received hexagram 10, Heaven over Lake. I often see the lower trigram as a representation of the questioner, and the upper trigram as the other party (if there is one), or the outside world etc. I told her that the lower trigram could indicate a desire to keep the relation as enjoyable as possible, but that this was difficult because the son put himself in the position of the father (the upper trigram), making the mother-son relationship imbalanced. This was acknowledged by the lady, who said that her husband, the father of her son, had passed away some time ago.
The father figure was also apparent in the answer for another woman, who asked how she could move on in the mourning process she had been struggling with the last three years. She didn't say which person the mourning was about, but she received a hexagram with Heaven as lower trigram (I can't recall the upper trigram). I told her that the hexagram indicated that she was very much occupied by the relationship with her father, and she confirmed that it was her father who had died three years ago.
The trigrams often give the connection with the situation, which can be the starting point for the change that most people desire when they use the Yi.
Thanks for this! very interesting way to read it. Did you use the plum blossom method to derive these hexagrams?
Does anyone else here read the hexagrams on their own? I feel kind of alone here reading through the (nonetheless insightful) comments...
Try to read betwenn lines:I do not say that Kongzi was perfect, neither did he. I can't see how someone can read the Analects and other sources on Kongzi such as the Li Ji and conclude that Kongzi considered himself perfect. The text is peppered with Kongzi's evaluations of his own failings and achievements.
But this statement of yours goes beyond imperfection and into insulting innuendo:
"Why did KongZi move? Maybe the music was LASCIVE or the girls were not PRETTY enough for him. He lost the feast. Maybe he was waiting for audience or was not willing of waiting for the musicians."
His motivations in the Lunyu passage are indeed established by 2,500 years of commentary and thought about Kongzi ranging from the sycophantic to the skeptical. So if you want to strike off on your own with an insulting view to denigrate the Master, fine. You most certainly aren't the first and shan't be the last. But to infer that Kongzi had an interest in the entertainment, rather than concern that the duke was falling for the old 'dancing girl trick' which was a common gambit used on clueless rulers in ancient China, is to simply misread the passage. To misread the passage shows a lack of understanding of the context of the situation.
Eno's translation of Analects 9:18 is fine, IMO. Sex is exactly what the passage infers. The other translations just soften the tone of it in the interest of decorum, perhaps excessive decorum.
In a highly ritualized society like that of the Zhou, characterizaed by a diffused religiosity, a MEAT DIET was not only the mark of status, it had a religious significance.
It must be understood in the context of blood sacrifice. According to his biographer, Sima Qian, Confucius resigned from his position as minister of justice not when the sovereign, occupied by the beauties sent him by the kingdom of Qi in order to separate him from the sage, neglected to attend the council of ministers, but when he forgot to give the dignataries their share of MEAT after the great suburban sacrifice to Heaven.
Jean Levi: The rite, the Norm and the Dao.
HdO Early Chinese Religion ed. John Lagerwey & Marc Kalinowsli, p 645.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).